Death is no longer a suitable camouflage (in Changelog)


AdminNightStrike January 24 2011 11:39 AM EST

So there's been a long standing bug whereby dead minions that should take damage don't take enough. It's kind of interesting how this happened.

Fireball hits friendly minions for a third of the would-be damage dealt to the bad guys. To do this, we generate a list of targets for a given fireball (and cone of cold) attack. The targets consist of all the bad guys that are alive, and, if it's fireball and a melee round, all the good guys that are alive. All of these targets are thrown together into a list. As we iterate through all of the targets, though, CB takes some shortcuts to determine whether a target is friendly or not. (This isn't some abstract object piece of data with attributes attached to it or anything... it's a list of minion id numbers. Nothing fancy.) Basically, for every target, it regenerates the first half of that list (all the live bad guys). If the target is NOT in that list, then he's assumed to be a friendly.

So basically... if your PL minion dies while his buddies are under attack, and the attack against him occurs after that event, then CB will think that he's a friendly and give him a 2/3 damage reduction.

What's funny about this is that because of this reverse logic, there is a side effect that CoC is affected. The "1/3 off for friendlies" check isn't section off with "if fireball..." It's just that we never add friendlies into the target list to begin with, so we assume it's a "don't care".

But what happens is that anyone becomes a friendly when they were an original target but no longer are a current target within the same attack.

That's really not the best approach.

So....... now we generate the friendly list in the beginning and use the stored value instead of generating the bad guy list every time and assuming that if you aren't in that list, then you must be a good guy.


Bottom line: watch out for Fire n' Ice.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] January 24 2011 11:52 AM EST

Good work NS, glad to see this issue has been addressed now. It was certainly affecting a few of us during the last tourney when it was noticed. I don't even know if anyone saw it before that or not.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 11:53 AM EST

wowzers! thanks a ton for that.

DoS [Battle Royale] January 24 2011 12:32 PM EST

Good catch!

AdminShade January 24 2011 12:38 PM EST

I have absolutely no idea whether or not I have been affected by this at all... but good catch!

AdminNightStrike January 24 2011 12:57 PM EST

Thank Natasha for the catch -- and for finding the right time to get me on it.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 1:22 PM EST

Woot,, slight boost to fireball? Nice change...

AdminShade January 24 2011 2:00 PM EST

Boost or nerf, just the way you look at it ;)

Demigod January 24 2011 3:53 PM EST

Thanks to both Nat and NS. It won't, but I still hope this will turn a few fights. FFs need something to make them more popular. I gave up on mine last year, taking this biggest one out of the game. :(

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 24 2011 4:12 PM EST

I use GA, CoC ftw.
Thanks for the change NS and Nat for identifying it! :)

FailBoat[SG] January 24 2011 4:50 PM EST

Uh... I can honestly say I don't get what this change did. I mean, I kinda understand that it flagged enemies as friendlies after they were dead, but I don't get what changing that did for CoC and Fireball.

Just curious since I'm playing a CoC Mage right now.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] January 24 2011 5:01 PM EST

Basically to sum it up very nicely in an easy to understand way without going into much detail: There was a bug where a TSA/PL wall would come back to life and suddenly get 2/3rds damage reduction when being attacked by either FB or CoC. This fix makes it so that the bug no longer happens, meaning you wont be having an impossibly hard time against certain teams with a TSA/PL wall.

Lord Bob January 24 2011 5:09 PM EST

Well that's good news.

Any hope for a fix on the resurrection TSA bug?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 5:34 PM EST

That's not a bug LB.

Tal [G6] January 24 2011 6:05 PM EST

Its not working as intended.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 6:17 PM EST

And what would be working as intended tal? As it is right now it works perfectly intuitively. TSA regen works at the end of the round and it happens as long as the minion is in the fight. Dead minions are removed as the very last thing.

Tal [G6] January 24 2011 6:45 PM EST

Dead means not living, you shouldn't get the regen if you aren't living.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 6:47 PM EST

Dead is dead...

I'm with tal on this one regen should stop applying when the minion dies.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 6:49 PM EST

And a minion isn't dead until you see the R.I.P.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 6:51 PM EST

Should defending minions not shoot back either kef? After all if the attacker did fatal damage to them they would be dead by your book.

horseguy001 January 24 2011 7:08 PM EST

They could both be attacking at the same time. Move the regen to s start of a round, that way when that TSA minion is knocked in to the negatives he stays dead.

This is a good change...we should get a free retrain to try out CoC or FB :)

Lord Bob January 24 2011 7:10 PM EST

That's not a bug LB.

Then it needs to be changed.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 7:14 PM EST

http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=122111&opponent_name=Team+Rocket

Nuff said natasha' lol

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 7:15 PM EST

my question is why? It makes more sense ascetically to have the regen at the end of the round. One normally regenerates after they've been hit. Not if you are saying the TSA regen is too high, that's a different matter.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 7:24 PM EST

Then it needs to be changed.

Based on "I don't like it" or based on "This is an actual problem?"

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 7:24 PM EST

One normally regenerates after they've been hit.

Sure, but not if that last hit killed you. At that point there is no more regenerating lol.


Not if you are saying the TSA regen is too high, that's a different matter.

I think the TSA regen is fine where it's at..

Although I'd love to see a new body armor come along currently the TSA is all you see.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 7:27 PM EST

It does if you are dying but not yet dead. Which is the way it currently works.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 7:28 PM EST

No tasha, don't you know that D&D characters who get hit into negative HP cannot be stabilized or healed

this goes against everything about gaming that we have ever known

horseguy001 January 24 2011 7:48 PM EST

This is my biggest gripe with the TSA reviving dead minions, and why I think it should be moved to the start of the round.

There are 2 versions really:

1. When you have more then one damage source, when the TSA minion dies the other damage sources move on to the next minion. If that TSA minion comes back to life, it gets targeted again in the next round.

2. TSA + PL. This is nasty. The PL regen minion dies so damage doesn't get absorbed. Next round comes back to life and absorbs more damage, but just enough to kill it. Repeats until you have to do enough damage to outright kill all minions involved. I don't think it is meant to function this way.

I'll admit I have seen the most brutal side of this since these 2 situations render decay useless, so there is some bias. That being said, I don't think it was intended to work this way. All IMO of course :)

DoS [Battle Royale] January 24 2011 7:53 PM EST

It should regenerate after damage, so it does not lose a round, but it should not regenerate if the minion's HP goes into the negative.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 7:56 PM EST

Why?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 7:58 PM EST

Negative life simply means dying not dead. A minion is pronounced dead when you see the bold R.I.P.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 8:05 PM EST

if that were truly the case then targetting shouldn't move to the next minion until the next round thus dealing enough damage to keep it from coming back.

in effect, if they die enough to lose targ then they should stay dead.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 8:09 PM EST

I think it should be moved to the start of the round.

I disagree, because I don't think the TSA should lose a round of regeneration, and because you have to have taken damage to regenerate it.

That said, I have no experience with the situations you describe and neither apply to my team, but I agree that it doesn't seem like targeting should move on to the next minion.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 8:11 PM EST

You can usually see if someone is dying. That doesn't mean that they can't shoot back and such. Also isn't CPR an example in the real world of the equivalent of what we are talking about?

horseguy001 January 24 2011 8:17 PM EST

Negative life simply means dying not dead. A minion is pronounced dead when you see the bold R.I.P.

Semantics. There isn't a dead and dying in CB. System checks for negative HP > HP is negative minion is R.I.P. Whereas with the TSA it goes HP Regens > System checks for negative HP > HP is positive minion is alive.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 8:19 PM EST

Okay, so you just confirmed that the minion isn't dead. I'm uncertain what the problem is. You want System check > minion HP is positive > minion is dead?

horseguy001 January 24 2011 8:22 PM EST

No No.

I think if a minion gets hit into the negatives it should be considered R.I.P then and there. The way CB is structured and calculates rounds allows for minions to get back into the positives. I don't think that is the intention with the TSA (or leech for that matter).

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 8:25 PM EST

This would ruin battles. This would mean often the defender gets no chance for a counter attack and offsets the game far in favor of the attacker.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 8:27 PM EST

This would ruin battles. This would mean often the defender gets no chance for a counter attack and offsets the game far in favor of the attacker.

^

horseguy001 January 24 2011 8:32 PM EST

This would ruin battles. This would mean often the defender gets no chance for a counter attack and offsets the game far in favor of the attacker.

I wasn't looking at it that way.

All minions attack (just like now) > Check to see if any are dead > R.I.P any that are dead > Regen applied.

OR

Regen applied > All minions attack (just like now) > Check to see if any are dead > R.I.P any that are dead

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 8:48 PM EST

does negative hp get turned into zero before the regen occurs?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 8:50 PM EST

Of course not dude. It would be impossible to kill anyone with a TSA then.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 8:54 PM EST

i think the simplest solution is for regen to happen first in the sequence. that way if enough damage is dealt to kill a minion it will be killed and there will be no more hiding in death or resurrection.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 8:59 PM EST

I think the simplest solution is for TSA to regenerate HP and not redesign fighting to prevent that from happening in situations where people don't want it to

but that's just me :)

QBOddBird January 24 2011 8:59 PM EST

reading people as users, of course, not our developers (NS/Jon)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 9:00 PM EST

How big of a difference would it be to you if the TSA regen worked at the start of the round and PL stopped at 1 instead of 0?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 9:14 PM EST

as long as it takes care of the hiding in death issue then i am all for it.

the problem i see is that a minion takes damage and goes into the negative, targeting moves on to the next minion even though more damage could be dealt than the regen can make up for but because of the way it all works now that minion comes back to life.

if the regen happened first and enough damage was dealt to kill the minion then it would die. if i misunderstand the issue then i apologize in advance.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 9:17 PM EST

The chances of that happening are pretty small unless you have a tiny offense dude. In most cases the only chance of it really happening are when you only just barely get enough to kill the minion but the TSA keeps them alive for the round. This wouldn't even change because the regen would still apply.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 9:32 PM EST

would moving the regen first in the sequence have any negative impact?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 9:33 PM EST

Yes, you lose out on that first round of regen because you can't regen until after you've been hit. Logically speaking it makes perfect sense to have the regen occur at the end.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 9:37 PM EST

Yes, you lose out on that first round of regen because you can't regen until after you've been hit.

actually you don't. there is technically no difference between it happening at the end of round one or the beginning of round two other than the whole resurrection thing. ; )

QBOddBird January 24 2011 9:54 PM EST

Yes there is: it's called a 50 round limit!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 10:06 PM EST

Regen at full health = no regen

hit for damage.

This is your proposed system.

Current system is:

Hit for damage

Regen

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 10:15 PM EST

if it goes fifty rounds it matters not really.

if you think of it as a sequence it is now abababababab with a being damage and b being regen.

doing it my way would make it bababababab with the first regen often not firing thus making it abababababab.

it matters little except for closing off one more "death is not suitable camouflage" loophole which is the topic of this changelog.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 10:19 PM EST

The reason for that title was simply that minions with negative health were being recognized as allies rather than enemies.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 10:25 PM EST

i guess we have to agree to disagree. i see one less round of regen in a fifty round battle being the far lesser evil than resurrection from death due to battle sequence. i also see that as much more in line with the stated intentions especially as jon said he didn't like the way it worked but didn't want to take the time to change it.

horseguy001 January 24 2011 10:40 PM EST

I think the simplest solution is for TSA to regenerate HP and not redesign fighting to prevent that from happening in situations where people don't want it to

All minions attack (just like now) > Check to see if any are dead > R.I.P any that are dead > Regen applied.

That would be a tiny change. Only apply regen if the minion is actually alive. No redesigns.

QBOddBird January 24 2011 10:43 PM EST

Except that is a _perceived_ problem. Perceived by the player.

I see it as a D&D character being brought to negative HP, then being healed back to positive.

Skipping the person because of this? Sure, I can see this as being problematic. But regenerating their HP before they can die? This isn't a problem to me.

Dear CB: what you think is a problem, isn't necessarily a problem

Lord Bob January 24 2011 10:58 PM EST

Based on "I don't like it" or based on "This is an actual problem?"
What a stupid thing to ask.


Why?
Because it's ridiculous that a minion can hide in death to avoid damage from a heavier hitter. I once had a far inferior team on my fight list that I could beat easily. Then they added a TSA. My weakest attacker would pick it off like yesterday's business and my main damage dealer would sit around twiddling his thumbs until the end of the round. Because the weak attacker only killed him a little, he would revive, ad nauseum, while the rest of my team sat back for 3/4ths of the fight. This led to a series of stalemates that had no business being stalemates because I was soundly thrashing his team. Nobody in their right mind could call that a good feature. It's just an example of poor implementation.

Pre-round regeneration would fix this, as would checking for regen before the rest of the attackers call it a night. Either way, the ability to hide in death is an incredibly cheap side-effect of the TSA and needs to go.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 11:01 PM EST

Never thought about shifting your minion order a bit to deal with it?

Demigod January 24 2011 11:02 PM EST

His complaint is the structure, not the specific event...

Lord Bob January 24 2011 11:03 PM EST

Thank you Demi.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 11:03 PM EST

It isn't specific to TSA... VA works the same exact way and has the same potential result.

Lord Bob January 24 2011 11:05 PM EST

Then fix it in VA and the Morgul Hammer too.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 11:07 PM EST

Then should we fix dead minions fighting back as well?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 11:10 PM EST

all damage happens simultaneously i thought?

Lord Bob January 24 2011 11:10 PM EST

Stop comparing two different things. This is about minions hiding from damage in death to artificially draw out battles past the maximum number of rounds and cause stalemates. It is not about the ability to return damage for one round.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 11:11 PM EST

va is different as its life comes from damage done and therefore has to be figured after damage. tsa regen can happen any time as it isn't damage dependent.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 11:16 PM EST

Except for very specific setups designed to be weak against the TSA regen that doesn't happen. If you can't overcome the TSA's regen you won't get them down to 0 life in the first place.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 24 2011 11:39 PM EST

couldn't it also happen if the tsa minion has 8m hp and an attacker does 8.5m damage. it would die and no other minions would attack it but it would resurrect with a large tsa.

if the regen happened first and the 8.5m didn't kill the target then the next minion would.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2011 11:49 PM EST

couldn't it also happen if the tsa minion has 8m hp and an attacker does 8.5m damage. it would die and no other minions would attack it but it would resurrect with a large tsa.


The regen is a flat 3%. So I believe the blow would have to be a little smaller otherwise this would be one dead minion regardless of regen.

if the regen happened first and the 8.5m didn't kill the target then the next minion would.

There would be no regen happening since it's capped at max health. And I"m not sure what you mean by "didn't kill the target then the next minion would".

horseguy001 January 24 2011 11:58 PM EST

...This led to a series of stalemates that had no business being stalemates because I was soundly thrashing his team.

Read that whole paragraph, just took a snippet of it. Hit the nail on the head. Those with multiple damage dealers get shafted in that case. It sucks when they have to keep killing the same minion over and over, or when they don't attack at all (only to have the process repeat for 50 rounds).


{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 25 2011 1:52 AM EST

I see it as a D&D character being brought to negative HP, then being healed back to positive.

If I remember correctly from my time playing D&D, you became unconscious when your hp is negative. In the CB equivalent, the unconscious minion becomes overlooked by attackers for the next minion in line.
Why is this a problem?
Are you saying that your minions should spend a round attacking unconscious enemies to make sure they are dead rather than moving on to fight a still moving and potentially dangerous target?

Soxjr January 25 2011 4:46 AM EST

Yes, if said unconscious person has the ability to come back to life and wreak havoc on your team for rounds to come.

FailBoat[SG] January 25 2011 4:50 AM EST

Are you saying that your minions should spend a round attacking unconscious enemies to make sure they are dead rather than moving on to fight a still moving and potentially dangerous target?

I am -all- for them still attacking unconscious targets before the main threat. I'll then fill my 3 Minion Slots with PL/HP/GA minions and laugh maniacally as I get in plenty of free potshots.

Fishead January 25 2011 5:42 AM EST

There are a lot of things in CB that don't make real sense.It's not the real world. Take the GA/RoBF strat. Any team with out offense should not be allowed to attack. How does this work?

A bunch of French minions taunt me "Your Mother Is a Hamster and Your Father Smells of Elderberries". I'm offended so I strike and then kill myself by repeatedly striking an opponent that doesn't fight back? And each time I hit them I hurt myself? Why would I do that?

Rather than call for another nerf, just find a way to counter what you disagree with. There's always a counter, and no strat will beat everything.

horseguy001 January 25 2011 8:58 AM EST

I think its strange to call the initial fix in this thread needed since a game mechanic wasn't working properly, and then turn around and say another game mechanic that isn't working properly is OK.

Why wasn't the the fireball and CoC reduction another nifty effect of the TSA?

FailBoat[SG] January 25 2011 9:09 AM EST

Because being flagged as a friendly and getting a massive damage reduction when you're an enemy is a bug, not a "nifty" feature.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 25 2011 9:12 AM EST

ok, my example above was off because i was tired and sleepy. here goes again since people can't seem to adjust the numbers themselves.

couldn't it also happen any time that the damage taken falls between hp left on minion and hp left plus regen amount given by tsa?

to keep targetting dead minions that might regen would also be silly especially when the obvious fix is just to move regen to the first of the sequence. problem solved! ; )

Phoenix [The Forgehood] January 25 2011 9:19 AM EST

Why not just add a check where an attacker will ensure the defender's death if there's a TSA on the defending minion? Something along the lines of attacking a minion as long as the TSA regen is capable of bringing that minion back to life.

horseguy001 January 25 2011 9:47 AM EST

This is what I was looking for.

AdminJonathan September 9 2008 12:11 PM EDT
fixed (TSA minions will continue to be targetted after they are "dead" if no other targets remain)

In response to Ressurections through TSA

It was enough of a problem to warrant a fix when the last minion keeps reviving. It must be too much of a coding headache to allow those pesky "dead" minions to stay "dead" when there is more then one standing.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 25 2011 10:19 AM EST

it happens every time i fight law:

Ranged Combat
Hal hit tankwall [151830]
phantom absorbs damage [151,830]
Hal hit tankwall [139336]
phantom absorbs damage [139,336]
Hal shot tankwall [187721]
phantom absorbs damage [187,721]
Hal hit tankwall [144883]
phantom absorbs damage [144,883]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [583351]
phantom absorbs damage [583,351]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [643355]
phantom absorbs damage [643,355]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [522827]
phantom absorbs damage [522,827]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [698352]
phantom absorbs damage [698,352]
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP

Justice hit tankwall [157]
phantom absorbs damage [157]
Hal hit tankwall [167026]
phantom absorbs damage [167,026]
Hal shot tankwall [203286]
phantom absorbs damage [203,286]
Hal shot tankwall [255101]
phantom absorbs damage [255,101]
Hal shot tankwall [157009]
phantom absorbs damage [157,009]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [771046]
phantom absorbs damage [771,046]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [577378]
phantom absorbs damage [577,378]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [542722]
phantom absorbs damage [542,722]
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP

Justice hit tankwall [540]
phantom absorbs damage [540]
Justice shot tankwall [392]
phantom absorbs damage [392]
Hal hit tankwall [198992]
phantom absorbs damage [198,992]
Hal hit tankwall [97886]
phantom absorbs damage [97,886]
Hal hit tankwall [155588]
phantom absorbs damage [155,588]
Hal shot tankwall [130178]
phantom absorbs damage [130,178]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [498938]
phantom absorbs damage [498,938]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [699606]
phantom absorbs damage [505,874]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [808153]
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP

Justice shot tankwall [287]
phantom absorbs damage [287]
Justice hit tankwall [485]
phantom absorbs damage [485]
Hal hit tankwall [192998]
phantom absorbs damage [192,998]
Hal shot tankwall [205016]
phantom absorbs damage [9,736]
Hal hit tankwall [158836]
Hal shot tankwall [134216]
Hal shot tankwall [172346]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [597277]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [471532]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [622316]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [579018]
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP

Justice shot tankwall [197]
phantom absorbs damage [197]
Justice hit tankwall [187]
phantom absorbs damage [187]
Hal hit tankwall [193071]
phantom absorbs damage [193,071]
Hal shot tankwall [123291]
phantom absorbs damage [14,022]
Hal hit tankwall [117640]
Hal hit tankwall [222348]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [479498]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [703083]
Order shot tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [573365]
Order hit tankwall with Long Arm of the Law [633384]
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP

Justice hit tankwall [403]
phantom absorbs damage [403]
Hal shot tankwall [155553]
phantom absorbs damage [155,553]
Hal shot tankwall [102684]
phantom absorbs damage [51,788]
Hal shot tankwall [137306]
Hal shot tankwall [143663]
Hal skewered tankwall [175109]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Order struck deep into enchantress with Long Arm of the Law [2735738]
Order struck deep into enchantress with Long Arm of the Law [1873827]
Order struck deep into enchantress with Long Arm of the Law [2157911]
Order struck deep into enchantress with Long Arm of the Law [2714164]
Order cries "Times up!"
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP
R.I.P. tankwall, enchantress

Melee Combat
Justice burns from the flames surrounding rogue (2092682)
Justice shot phantom [1929]
Hal struck deep into phantom [645074]
Hal skewered phantom [506507]
Hal struck deep into phantom [604675]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Order hit rogue with Long Arm of the Law [2929322]
Order hit rogue with Long Arm of the Law [3077086]
phantom regenerated 186,701 HP
R.I.P. phantom R.I.P. Justice

Faithful Steed burns from the flames surrounding rogue (2199119)
R.I.P. Faithful Steed

Hal burns from the flames surrounding rogue (2418500)
Hal hit rogue [764399]
Order struck deep into rogue with Long Arm of the Law [2054017]
Order cries "Times up!"
R.I.P. rogue

QBsutekh137 January 25 2011 11:26 AM EST

RE: moving TSA regeneration to the start of the round:

There is no reason to force a TSA wearer to "lose" that first round. Simply make the maximum HP allowed for a TSA-wearer to be:

Native HP * 1.NN

Where NN is the percentage of regeneration the TSA would provide.

In other words, the TSA wearer can can have "extra life" rather than "hide in death."

This is not my idea, and has been brought up several times before. It means the TSA wearer gets everything they deserve, and the team trying to defeat the TSA wearer can still kill them if they can deal out that bit of extra damage.

Voila. No more hiding in death, and all other targeting/battle dynamics can remain as-is.

QBsutekh137 January 26 2011 10:04 PM EST

Wait, seriously? I make one post and I kill the thread? Jeesh.

Tal [G6] January 26 2011 10:13 PM EST

How exactly would you lose a round of regen?!?!?!

You won't! From the end of round 1 to the beginning of round 2 is empty space. And people say I have no common sense.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 26 2011 10:17 PM EST

if the battle goes fifty rounds you would lose one if the minion was also taking damage every round. however if it goes fifty rounds without ending then the lost round of regen likely won't matter.

QBsutekh137 January 26 2011 10:29 PM EST

And since we can eliminate the downside (lamely hiding in death) without changing the upside (getting the worth out of a TSA), with just one or two lines of code, everyone's happy.

If they aren't, I'd love to hear why.

QBOddBird January 26 2011 11:12 PM EST

And people say I have no common sense.

And dudemus proves them right!

And since we can eliminate the downside (lamely hiding in death) without changing the upside (getting the worth out of a TSA), with just one or two lines of code, everyone's happy.

Agreed, your solution sounds like a good way to remove the "hide in death" aspect while preventing any potential regen loss. :)

iBananco [Blue Army] January 27 2011 1:49 AM EST

To be more precise, it's not ABABABAB. It's more like ABCABCABC -> BACBACBAC. Minions only die at the end of a round. For example, 1M damage to a 1M HP minion will let it survive with the current system, whereas 1M damage will kill a 1M HP minion if regen is applied at the beginning of the round.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 27 2011 9:04 AM EST

in all other instances in cb 1m damage will kill a 1m hp minion, that is one of the issues at stake here.

check out round four of the battle log i posted. after phantom dies law still does plenty of damage to overcome his regen as well but since he is hiding in death for the remainder of that round phantom can come back at the beginning of the next round. law actually does around 10m more damage to my team in that round. my regen from the tsa is less than 200k.

the part that is wrong here is that since the game fight rounds were sequenced before regen was created, it moves on to the next target because it assumes phantom is dead.

i truly care not how it is fixed and since i know little about coding i see it as the more solutions the better. this way one can be picked that works best, is easiest to implement and has the least impact on the server per fight. i just really don't think it should work this way and see it as a bug.

QBOddBird January 27 2011 10:14 AM EST

in all other instances in cb 1m damage will kill a 1m hp minion, that is one of the issues at stake here.

In all other instances in CB, the minion is not regenerating damage taken...

I think it is perfectly appropriate for the TSA to regenerate on a 0 HP minion if the minion has not been pronounced dead. I think it is perfectly appropriate if it regenerates 250k and the minion has -200k HP. The minion's not declared dead yet, and the fight's not over, he just gets a regenerative heal and keeps on going for one more round.

I can agree with the desire to remove the "hide in death" effect. I understand that. But that's only one aspect of this, and regenerating on a 0 HP minion, while tied in to it, is another.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 27 2011 10:22 AM EST

i see it simply as if enough damage could have been done to take the minion beyond what hit points it has plus any regen amount then that minion should not come back. since regen happens after damage is taken and targeting moves to another minion before that regen takes place, the system is buggy.

for that reason i asked that regen be moved to the first of the round. it likely should be that if targeting is going to change from that minion then apply regen and check for targeting to change once again but that is likely more complex.

AdminShade January 27 2011 10:23 AM EST

With regards to the ababababab or bababababa thing.

Why not put the TSA regeneration at the beginning of a round, and NOT have it regenerate at round 1? In effect it'll be the same as if it would regenerate at the end of the previous round, with the exception of it not reviving dead minions.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 27 2011 10:36 AM EST

the point regarding va and the morg earlier isn't really an issue either because their regen happens before targeting can move on to another minion since regen happens directly after damage is dealt. it is only a problem with the tsa because its regen isn't damage based.

the tsa was added later and tagged onto the end when it shouldn't have been due to the way targeting functions.

QBOddBird January 27 2011 10:38 AM EST

i see it simply as if enough damage could have been done to take the minion beyond what hit points it has plus any regen amount then that minion should not come back. since regen happens after damage is taken and targeting moves to another minion before that regen takes place, the system is buggy.

Exactly. If enough damage has been done to take them beyond HP + regen, it shouldn't come back. I don't care if regen happens before or after damage is taken, so long as we don't lose a round of it, and I think fixing the targeting so it moves to another minion is a fine idea. Sut's idea is absolutely tits.

Why not put the TSA regeneration at the beginning of a round, and NOT have it regenerate at round 1?

already answered if you scroll up, because the TSA user essentially loses the HP it would have regenerated in round 1

AdminShade January 27 2011 10:42 AM EST

why would it lose that regeneration?

At round 1, at the beginning of the fight, it doesn't regenerate above max HP, does it? If it does, then that's just another loophole which needs fixing in my opinion.

QBOddBird January 27 2011 10:49 AM EST

At round 1, at the beginning of the fight, it doesn't regenerate above max HP, does it?

It regenerates if you are damaged, yes. What's that have to do with max HP?

Look, regenerating damage at the start of round 2 is not the same as regenerating damage in round 1, they are separate rounds of which there are a limited number.

I have to go to work, but someone asked the exact same questions earlier and we discussed it, scroll up for further information if needed :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 27 2011 10:57 AM EST

basically shade they are saying that if the battle goes fifty rounds in the current system you can possibly get a full fifty round of regen with the tsa because damage is applied first and it is thus possible to get regen in round one if that minion takes damage. if regen is moved to the first of the round, you could only get 49 regens.

i really don't see any situation, other than hiding in death, that this would matter though because if the minion is alive at the end of one round it will regenerate at the beginning of the next except for the last regen after round fifty. at that point though the fight is over and the tsa minion could be dead at the end as opposed to alive i guess but the chances of that happening should be much much smaller than the chance of minions hiding in death that we have now.

AdminShade January 27 2011 11:15 AM EST

I think that when a fight currently lasts 50 rounds, and then would last 49 rounds because you just don't regenerate in the last round is not such a big deal.

Honestly, who of the people who are currently complaining about this way of thinking _actually_ gets fights taking 50 rounds just because they have a TSA which hides their minion from death? Those are losing the fights anyway :)

Phaete January 27 2011 11:48 AM EST

Why not redefine death (not end of round death, but go to next target death) for a TSA wearer as HP+regen.
This would stop skipping over them, unless enough damage is dealt to keep them dead.

Colonel Custard January 27 2011 1:03 PM EST

Regen is capped at Max HP, so the Max HP*1.NN at beginning of round would require some more complex sort of work, I'd imagine. Otherwise, it would effectively raise Max HP by 4% right off the bat, and for the whole battle.

iBananco [Blue Army] January 27 2011 1:50 PM EST

The simplest solution, as Phaete has said, is to remove minions from the targeting list only after HP <= -regen.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 27 2011 4:26 PM EST

With the TSA regen moved to the start of the round the wearer would always get 1 less regen unless the cap were changed. It doesn't matter how many rounds the battle lasts the amount of TSA regen would always be 1 less than it currently is.

horseguy001 January 27 2011 4:51 PM EST

There have been a few good suggestions that would change nothing with gameplay mechanics while removing the ability to hide in death.

Moving the regen would work, but not to the start of the round (I have seen the error in my judgement), but to after the R.I.P check.

That would solve everything I think.

AdminShade January 28 2011 1:17 AM EST

With the TSA regen moved to the start of the round the wearer would always get 1 less regen unless the cap were changed. It doesn't matter how many rounds the battle lasts the amount of TSA regen would always be 1 less than it currently is.

Yup, but does that matter for a dead minion or is the discussion really going about a dead minion being revived? I'd say dead = dead = keeps on being dead.

QBOddBird January 28 2011 1:42 AM EST

Except he's not dead yet, or the TSA regen wouldn't have happened.

FailBoat[SG] January 28 2011 1:43 AM EST

Uh, I'd be more worried about what the lose of a round of regen would do to teams that don't care so much about the revival. Take my team Demacia for instance. Surviving Ranged for me is only based upon the TSA I wear. Losing that would destroy my survivability and force me into having to recruit a second minion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 28 2011 10:46 AM EST

Except he's not dead yet, or the TSA regen wouldn't have happened.

then targeting shouldn't move to the next minion until regen takes place.

AdminNightStrike January 28 2011 3:55 PM EST

Glad to see my changelog thread stayed completely on topic and devoid of the typical CB nonsense......

Oh, wait...........

Demigod January 28 2011 4:09 PM EST

Here's more off topic nonsense: an ellipsis has three dots. :D

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 28 2011 4:13 PM EST

furious ones often linger longer
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0039ko">Death is no longer a suitable camouflage</a>