Help with character strat, esp the exbow (in General)

Right now I have given up on trying to get the exbow balanced.

So how can I try to prevent getting hit 1 time in 6 rounds of missile so my strength is not drained to negative 10M.

With HP/TSA/PL minions out there, over 50% of my battles go 6 rounds or more, giving exbow users full missile to hit me.

I get hit by exbows with 150-160 PTH, 1-3M dex.

One problem I have is leadership. That is basically free PTH that I cannot match with my DBs. Which are 208 effective.

I am just over my total ENC on my tank.

Someone via Cm suggested I could boost my dex as a defensive measure, but even with my old character and 8M dex (double my current dex on this character) I get hit in missile my 1M dex exbow users. So that is not a solution.

Is there anything short of using PL to help vs 1 hit to stop from getting hit one time draining all my tanks strength.

I made a 2nd attacker, but with a SG of 7M, at this MPR, it does not matter much if anything in 90% of battles. GA does help but not as much.

Can anyone give me a suggestion? and please do not use this thread to criticize or otherwise post negative things.

use a exbow to, so you can just drain the tank before he drains you 8D

You could switch from your AoF to an AoI for an extra -20 pth/cth, only equipment based change I can see working honestly.... and even then it might not. Avoidance and PL are the only answers really.

Thanks King

I tried the AoI, but even one scratch seems to drain my strength well below 0.

I was just wondering if I missed anything obvious.

train evasion with AoI and DB's and alot of Dex :D

Excellent idea! The AoI helps a bit, but since 1 hit = 10M strength, it does not stop all hits that is needed vs this very well thought out, very well balanced item.

However being that the elb is the ONLY weapon in the game you have to train to use to its BASE effectiveness, evasion is not possible.

A while back I brought up dropping archery or making archery actually give a bonus so evasion is a possibility but the consensus of the developers were no.

And via CM a couple have people told me that idea was stupid and ill conceived.

I am maxed on my ENC and frankly at this point refuse to play the spending game given ever since Leadership was introduced, it is almost impossible to overcome all the PTH from the exbow and Leadership. The dex battle is interesting but even with 6-8x their dex, I still manage to get hit 1/3-1/2 the time over 6 rounds.

Get your SG as large as possible.

The best way to beat an exbow team is high dd melee damage. :) (for example Large decays, CoC's and SG's)

Or at least those are the teams that tend to beat me. :)

Also if you really do last a few rounds into melee a robf works awesome with GA

Bracers of the Stone King [3] (+15)
An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x10000] (+150)
Strength: 8,760,000 / 4,000,000


I could always add some more dex I suppose to put the coffin in it.

^ To my knowledge, I'm the only person playing with a 1m DX tank-wall using an exbow.

What's the difference between the current situation, and dropping the base CTH of the bow by 10% and letting Archery give a "bonus" of 10% at 1.0?

me using an MsK and being unbeatable...


it'd take bows from 20% effect to 90% without the skill... massive change

I would support switching bows into line with the pth of other ranged weapons (55-60 bth) then removing archery and instead adding a new skill that worked with ranged weapons called sniper or whatever that increased the bth of the ranged weapon being used by up to 40 or 60 at a ratio of str, likely 1/4 or 1/3 for 60.

i don't like elbow have archery while all other ranged weapons have no specialized skill.

I have no idea about other elb users, however, I would gladly give up 10% CTH of the elb for the freedom to use what I wanted with the skill slot. Or being able to free up that 1/6th of that minions xp to better use on "defensive" measures vs the exbow. Like more dexterity.


I still think novice AS/GA characters would still beat you.


Of that I agree 100%. However, I really think the need for archery to be able to use the elb just to base effectiveness is too harsh.

I would have the elb and MSB at 70-75%, above that of the ax/exbow.

Still, even with the ability to use evasion, the way it stacks with higher level DBs makes it less effective given (I know I repeat myself) the stupid 1 hit = 10+M drain of the exbow.

This really wouldn't be balanced. I would put the ELB at 60 and the MsK at 58. These are slightly above the ex/axbow and on par with the SoD.

Can I ask why AC doesn't protect against drain? (or some specific armor for that matter)

it does, very well in fact

AC helps. The TOA makes AC rather difficult.

How about dropping the ToA and going heavy Tank?

hmm, maybe that wont put enough power in his shots? :)

even with full str gear I would have about 2.5M strength.
However should fear of the exbow make the ToA unplayable?

No other item in the game makes a minion, its tattoo and all its NW moot with 1 hit.

Should fear of Decay make you have to train AMF?

Train more natural Str, or use GS? ;)

Excellent question!!

However it is not applicable to this discussion.

Why?

1) Decay does not take out a minion, all its xp, its tattoo and xp in 1 hit.

2) I even like decay as my GA does wonders to the decay mage

3) If there was a skill I could train to 100k to stop the exbow, I would jump at it. However it is a choice to use AMF or not. The choice I have is to:

a) Spend more CB to up my DB, of which I am at my ENC (I can make room). But then I have to beat both the PTH of the exbow AND all the fine leadership bonuses that are basically almost free PTH.

b) Train massive dex and pray the exbow user does not hit me 1 time all fight.

There is no items or spell like the exbow that in 1 shot completely takes a ToA tank out of the battle.


So I should NOT use a ToA to protect vs the 1 hit wonder of the exbow? Wow!

How about an item, let us call it a frost bow that if it hits the RBF cools it down to 100 damage a round. Then we can chat about all the RBF users that should not use the RBF.

Or GS that can be nuked by all the DM at the top ranks. But then you can say "use the RoS".

Stupid me! I should have been using the RoS or another tattoo and not the ToA. Just due to a 1 hit wonder item.

How is the exbow much different from this bow:

Frost bow Base damage 5, seeks RBF users as the MsB seeks mages, as the ax/exbow seeks tanks. Same upgrade as the MsB

0 CTH when attacking a RBF, 90 CTH when attacking non RBF wearing minions.- Since almost all RBF users are 20 dex minions.

Each hit is calculated using the same scale as the exbow, that is damage vs current wearers HP (NOT tattoo level vs damage) to determine the leech of levels of the RBF.

So an 18M level RBF on a 6M hp minion can be leeched with a 200k hit to -20M levels.

After all, why would the fact the tattoo is 18M levels actually matter for the drain, like why would 18M strength actually matter vs the exbow.

First hit has 0 drain, subsequent hits have drain potential. To compensate for the PL saving exbow hits (possibly).

Fair? No fraking way.

Here are a few changes i would make.

Archery to Bloodlust
ELB to SoD
BoM to SoC
equip Morg

Reasoning.

As far as i know you don't need any strength for the SoC to deliver flashback damage.
So deal as much damage you can in ranged and then wait till melee to flash damage + life leech. You will have a lot of pth so you will most likely be getting multiple hits.

AB,

Not bad suggestions.

However, one hit from the exbow makes my SoD a paperweight.

And on a 4 minion character I have to wait to get hit, absorb damage and then do it in 1 hit to the next minion hittable on the enemy.

I have a 125m NW MoD, however, even with the ToA I am at my ENC limit.

I tried the SoC/MoD/no ELB and lost 8 people on my fightlist before I stopped the experiment.

While the SoC is quite powerful, and possibly too powerful due to it being the first layer of damage reduction, it is not the solution to the 20M+ drain from the exbow.

One solution I have been thinking is using the RoS and having GS/Haste on my other minions. However, it is just stupid that a ToA cannot be used vs this one hit wonder.

I heard DDs do well against the exbow.

Certainly.

My SG is 7+M on my mage. I also tried using a 11.5M EF. Unless I rework my whole character I lose 1/3 my fightlist.

But this "counter" is not really a counter. It is a "do not use physical damage at all" type of deal.

I am not against such an item draining strength, however 1 hit = total loss of that minion + no way to regenerate it back + being taken well into the negatives does not a balanced weapon make.

What else in all of CB is like the exbow?

I feel it is a must for you to equip both a ranged and a melee to deal with all the different scenarios you will encounter. I also think that a morg would work well with your shocking grasp minion as it would be removing aoi + bof minions, aoi decay minions and such. The hard part would be figuring out your minion order so that your toa tank was taking all the physical damage.

The SG minion very very rarely takes out decay minions thanks to all the HP/TSA/PL minions out there with 6+M hp.

My SG vs some AMF's out there, even at 7M levels, does less than 1M a shock. I could make my largest minion SG, but then I would have to learn HP and SG with my overall SG level being almost the same.

I would make my familiar a EF, but then why have weapons?

With ENC in play, I cannot realistically carry both my ELB and my MoD. As AS does not help vs ENC. I tried GS, but there are tons of DM near the top.

My tank does most of the damage, almost a 5/1 ratio, vs my mage at this point. I want it to live the longest.

And to those that believe I want to be unbeatable that is just garbage.

There are 5-6 non exbow using characters that clean my clock. And I am ok with it.

I am not ok with the cheap losses to another 3-4 minions using the exbow.

Of course!

The ToA *is not* a defensive item.

If you want to use a Tattoo to help protect versus the EXbow, use a ToE. That's a defensive Tattoo, and would help reduce the trian by reducing the incoming damage.

Is that better than a full heavy AC wall set, probably not. But then the ToE has an Aura, so you get best of both worlds.

Can you do me a favor, and list the opponents you're hoping to keep from farming you, and the opponents who are using an exbow in this list?

Team Rocket
| Priest of Rathma |
The Iconics 3e
Construct - depends on what tattoo he uses.

3-4 of the top 14 scores

exbow has little to do with our fight anymore...

IDK nov.

I have not fought you with your exbow on lately.

I added a base decay with some NS and it seems to have done the trick.

I think a really good take away from this thread is that we want to make sure that it's incredibly hard to be unbeatable.

And that sums it up. The misunderstanding. Even without the exbow, nobody in the game is unbeatable. So please tell me why it is needed? So people can get cheap defensive wins?

Since King is beatable only by 3 people should there not now be an item that nerfs the RoS in 1 shot?

Or since AA is beatable only by 1 person should we not have an item that nerfs his whatever in 1 hit?

There are 4 characters at least who can beat me, many who can beat Z and SHD is not playing anymore.

So why again is the exbow now needed? Given there are at least 4 ways to beat a good elb user.

People who can -possibly- beat you (not 100%) and who actually fights you (100% win) are two entirely different things. I'd check your fight logs, You only have one person attacking you, and I don't see anyone who uses an exbow coming after you other then myself when I was messing around with a ToA.

The only thing I can see here, or at least how it looks to me and probably a few other people as well, is you are complaining about people getting -random- defensive wins from something that you are weak to, was specifically made to counter you, you have no defense set up against, nor the dex advantage needed to avoid hits from, and since there are other possible routes one can go to fight you to win (ToE but only if you got the magic damage output, HP and DM to overcome you/Being the one RoS user with the MPR advantage/and maybe another ToA tank) then that must absolutely mean the exbow is both overpowered and completely un-needed.

Am I getting all that correct? Because that's just the way this entire thing comes off to me. It all seems incredibly self centered to me, and you make out anyone who uses this weapon to be in the wrong like its some cheap unbeatable auto win machine, which couldn't be further from the truth.

What I am seeing is you using a weapon grossly underpowered at this level of play, on a minion with minimal dexterity (1/4th mine) and being able to neutralize my characters attack on you.

And if you attack me, you win 3/4th of the time.

Which seems very self-centered to me.

Yes, I can switch from a ToA to a ToE or better yet to a RoS or even better a RBF. Hell, I should likely even give up the elb alltogether, right?

If it was not so obviously overpowered, you would not be able to just slap one on and beat me on attack 3/4 of the time and get defensive wins about 1/4th of the time.

It is one thing to be weak to something. Such as relying on AS and having heavy xp intense characters beat you. Or relying on the RBF and getting beat by a heavy tank.

But this is just foolish. A weapon that with 1 hit takes the minion and makes it nothing more than a kill slot.

Oh thank you for noticing, I'm sorry I haven't been playing for years and I dont have 240m nor $480 to throw at the game and I wanted to mix up a bit with multiple damage sources/defenses based on what I could rent and who I planned to fight in the end. Two different 130m nw weapons grossly underpowered? I'd say they are fairly decent in size. Also I'd like to note that minion is not my main damage dealer, in fact I have several damage dealers, that is my tank-wall it is a hybrid -defensive- minion for robf/physical damage based teams and a damage dealer vs robf/pl/ros teams with low dex. My tank only accounts for roughly 35% of my teams total damage against all the teams I fight.

You have 4m dex, thats rather low for a ToA archer/tank dont you think. BTW I cannot hit anything past 6m dex at all, there gave away the secret. Any tank with 6m or more dex I cant even touch with that minion.

When you had 8m dex on your last char did you ever check the fight logs and see how I was actually beating you at the time? It wasnt the exbow I assure you, I was able to make it just far enough into melee that I got both a decay hit and a familiar hit on your damage dealer killing it off.



I made this very clear earlier, all of those attacks I made on you in the last 24hours where I had a 74% win rate was while I was using a -ToA-


No, I'm not making any threads saying this item or that item needs to be balanced/taken out from the game based on anyone who beats me. Nor do I cry unfair/broken/un-needed at anything in the game. If anything I want more possibilities and more variety, and an over all more challenging game for everyone.


No, defend yourself better, learn a better use of strategy, use PLs to absorb the drains, do whatever you can to minimize your losses. You want your main damage dealer to be a tank right? Well then make sure that tank stays alive and it keeps its str, use a strategy that actually allows for that.


Again those offensive wins were ALL with a ToA.. the defensive wins are nothing more then random at best. Which you can blame the way CTH works for that, not my use of the exbow.

Here is the kicker, that exbow I rent is for -defense- against ToA users I couldn't possibly beat without it, but who I don't actually fight. It is after all a defensive minion half the time.


Again, I made this point before. I made novices entire character, every bit of his nw, every fight he's ever made, completely irrelevant with 1m decay and an average sized tat you'd find on most players above 4m mpr. Over 20m hp and a year and a half worth of work, completely destroyed by 12m xp. Takes me 3 rounds to kill him, thats right 3, I dont hit him till round 6 of ranged. Why? Best part: -My tank cant touch him at all.- I haven't been able to hit nov, not even randomly, since I dropped under 2m dex.

Strange because his exbow looks bigger than my biggest weapon is and I was a tank centric team in the top 5. So I really don't think a 130 mil + weapon is grossly underpowered.

Oh I failed to mention I was talking about Nov not using a ToA but another tat or tatless with 6m dex if I wasn't clear about that.

Poseidon defeated Epitaph (SeeD) after 22 rounds of combat

Nope, still beatable.

Funny, we have that.. its call the exbow. Yet no one uses one to farm either him or yourself... hmm wonder why?

Well that proves the RBF is just as powerful as the ELB as I lose to him very badly. I only manage to kill one minion.

So by the same line of thinking about the exbow, we need to either nerf the RBF or make an item to make it 0 level in 1 hit.

who is AA? :o

Ancient Anubis i think

http://www.carnageblender.com/shared/community-member.tcl?user_id=163582

A Morgul-Hammer [84x11000] (+150) worth $128,144,464 owned by QBJohnnywas

130 mill worth of weapon doesn't seem too underpowered for the top levels to me...

True, the SOC has nothing at all to do with the power of the MH. Nothing at all.

The SoC is only as good as the incoming damage that actually hits my tank, and does nothing against mage teams or RBF teams. Nothing but a paperweight against those teams.

Comedy does not come out well in a forum based theater.

No one is beating you at all with an RoBF, you are just being delusional and getting your tats mixed up. You are getting killed off by one thing and one thing only GA backed by an RoS.

The more and more your points are being shot down or being shown to be completely subjective and circumstantial the more you are bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You are in the top 5, you have 1 person fighting you reliably. NO ONE AT ALL is farming you with the exbow. Find me a single person who is -farming- you with an exbow, 1! that's all I ask.

This has all been over -you- getting random offensive losses and others getting random offensive wins. That is all this is about nothing more and nothing less.

Want my honest opinion? Your strat is completely horrible for the route you decided to go for your main damage dealer, and the only two people attacking you right now are both winning because of GA that you cant dispel. You need more DM.

Epitaph beats Horror and my char beats Epitaph, without the SoC activating, with my Morg dishing out most of the damage, and the TSA/Morg VA keeping me nicely alive against the GA.

Mikel cleans my clock.

AA chooses for some reason not to fight me.

Epitath beats me silly

Construct can beat me if he went RBF with the exbow.

And does it not seem stupid that you can just slap on an exbow and beat me 75% of the time. I challenge you to do that with any other item in the game.

But of course, as an abuser of the exbow, I expect no rational thought process with respect to this weapon.

Once again I will repeat myself because its obvious you were not listening. All of those wins, that 75% you keep talking about every time I attack you. Was with a -TOA- as in I had a total of +300 pth, that was the only way I was able to get a -75%- win not even close to 100% that it should be considering I beat you in every single stat.

It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for me to have a 10% win rate vs you when you attack me, and me have a 75% win rate when I attack you. Obviously I changed something up.

I dont see Mikel attacking you so why are you even worried about it? Mikel cleans most peoples clocks, he has a good strat setup and a good defense for his main damage dealer, same goes for king.

Guess what I beat dudemus, draco, novice, zenai, kefec and I can beat king with some adjustments. Yet Mikel, AA, YOU, Karn, and NS all completely destroy me. You don't hear me complaining about ELBs or massive DDs, massive AMF, or massive RoBFs being too powerful. Or better yet DBs like I've said a million times before which completely cuts out all PTH on some of the best weapons in the game -unless- you are using a ToA to make up for that.


Abuser, hardly. Its called defense to keep my damage dealer alive vs JW, Miteke, and ScrObot. I didn't slap the exbow on for you, I've been using it for months no. I haven't heard anyone other then yourself ever complain about it.

You still haven't done that.

You first need to understand the word "farming".

Until you do that, do not use it improperly.

Nobody except novice beats me consistently with the exbow.

But you have grossly mistaken my motives, assuming it was for personal gains.

The exbow is just a bad weapon for CB. A binary one that has no place in a game such as this.

I am just the really only vocal one about it, but many a missile tank hates the darn thing.

Farming = The term all of us here use to describe attacking the same person day in and day out who you get the most gains from and close to 100% win off of. Someone who is in your favorites list, those are who you farm. That is farming.

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what it means, do you?

I don't see novice beating you consistently at all. consistently = 90% or greater in my opinion when talking about this game.

If that were the case why is he not one of your attackers.

You are the only person being vocal about it, because your team has been effected by it. If your team wasn't affected by it, you wouldn't be saying anything and kept playing.

Wrong!!

I don't even beat you with the exbow... haven't for a while. I either survive the GA or I don't, largely based on AC. I'm currently using an RoBF and even with the additional damage lowering what I take from GA I still die to that because of the size of the AS involved.

I'm pretty sure at this point I consistently lose to you...

The term "farming" has been diluted to mean a number of different things at this point. Originally, it was attacking someone while they burn BA. Even I misuse it a lot on purpose.

^ If that was the original definition of it, then sorry but I feel like it has changed and been diluted down to how I just described it. At least that's the way everyone has used the term in the last 8 months I've been here.

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) Horror (Battle Royale) Construct 13 12:35 AM EDT

I guess a while is a very very short time :)

This morning with the same setup I couldn't get a win... not sure what changed. The ToA is a miserable failure against you, the GA/AS is more than I'll be able to deal with for a while yet unless I finally get sick of this tat and go heavy tank.

Very easy.

I have 4 distinct damage sources.

1) My tank, the main attack. However it is nothing more than a kill slot, vs you and the exbow

2) AS/GA. This is my main attack. However, when you go with the RBF, this does 2 things in your favor. First, your damage goes way down due to less strength and less hits. Second it gives you a damage source not vulnerable to GA

3) Decay. If it was higher than base, due to your low AMF it would do a lot more damage. Boosting it is my only hope of constantly beating you.

4) SG. You have 0.00 AMF vs that spell due to your low AMF and my NSC. However it only does 2-3M a hit. Plenty, but vs your 23M hp, not that much. You take it out very quickly given your 19M level RBF and your tank.

The key, given all my attacks, is the RBF and its 3M+ constant damage a round not vulnerable to GA along with your tank doing less damage which is less GA damage.

Until I can boost my decay to about 500k, I have little chance to beat you with your RBF setup. All this without having my tank do anything more than be a kill slot vs you.

Welcome to the world of multiple damage sources, it is the world my team lives in. I hope you enjoy your stay.

I have had multiple damage sources for a while, even before I had this character.

It still does not change my opinion of the exbow as the elb is my main damage dealer.

GA/AS works vs a couple characters, but if my tank is neutered, I will lose 90% of my battles.

Hmm well the EF is my main damage dealer, so does that make it ok for me to think that the MsK/AMF/GA isn't fair against my team because it can be killed off so easily?

I have to address this.

There is only 1 MSB at our level of play and you beat that character all the time. PL/TSA/HP minions work great vs the MSB. In fact, so well that only 1 person uses the MSB. That person likely enjoys the crappy damage of the MSB since it allows him to live to melee where his MH and VA work wonders. The MSB is certainly NOT a 1 hit=familiar dies weapon.

AMF is not an insta kill/neuter spell. Especially with junctioned NSCs. I guess it takes a while for your EF to die. GA is a problem for everyone but RBF users. EF, archer, CoC mage ALL have problem with GA if they do not have a large DM (like you do) to nuke it.

You do not use AS, which is your choice. But there is no item out there that does an insta kill/nerf like the exbow.

Perhaps if the MSB ignored PL like the MoD we may be able to have another item like the exbow, but it is not.

However, 1-2 hits with the exbow completely takes my tank to -millions strength making it do <1k damage which does nothing in battle other than sit there.

Now to clarify PL and the exbow.

PL will move the strength drain over the PL minion if 2 conditions are met.

1) The PL minion has to suck at least 1/2 the damage done.
2) The PL minion has to have a positive strength, if in negative it does not PL the strength drain.

After 1 hit that gets PLd adequately, the PL minion goes into negative strength almost 100% of the time for a ToA ELB user. The strength drain converted to the PL minion is based upon what % drain would be on the minion initially hit. Which on a ToA user, lightly armored, is over 100% in most cases at the top ranks.

Therefore on hit number 2, condition 2 above is not met and the tank get leeched.

The only way to have multiple hits be PLd is to have 2 minions with PL. The first has to die from the PL damage so the 2nd takes over. It is almost impossible to titrate this for all exbow users. On characters using AS, it is completely impossible.

So at best, using PL, you can have the first hit be PLd, but the 2nd will not and you will suffer 100+% strength drain.

Which is why in my posts I put 1-2 hits to account for character that can use PL. Single minion character like Soxjr and Z cannot.

I do not use PL since I choose to use GA, and I agree, that is a person choice I chose to make. Still living 1 more hit before total strength loss does not help me in any battle with perhaps the exception of novice in some situations.

and that's exactly what it's supposed to do... defend against it or don't

Your strat isn't as well rounded as you'd like, adjust! Heavy archers are the future!

How come no one ever uses the best counter vs the kinds of exbows that you are complaining about. You said you have no problem with an exbow with similar investment with a like amount of str and dex. It's only the ones with like 1 mil dex and cheap exbows that you don't like. Very simple solution, train some EC.

EC, DM, Axbow. Each of these things can do the same exact things, it all depends who you are using them against. How the hell do I know this better then you do?

Seriously would you be saying all of this if I had EC instead and dropped the dex on your tank well below the point where it can hit anything? Cause that's cake, you don't even need much EC to do it to you. Would that make everything all right? Because you cant even block that at all, nor dodge it, and it would instantly make your little toa archer that has next to no base stats a paperweight by itself.


Everything is relative.

Btw ranger, I have a tankwall if you didnt notice. It has equal str to yours. I am in the same boat you are in against the exbow, and I have far less defense set up against it. Except I was smart and thought about that ahead of time and adjusted my strat around it.

OddBird here, coming back by to offer strategy advice learned from years of watching these threads:

Get the community as a whole to stop using strategies that beat Ranger

Pretty sure this is the only solution

I have only one defense set up against it*

And there are only a handful of exbow users as well, what is your point? How does the amount of users make any difference to the argument?

The only reason I beat him at all is because of the exbow, he is the entire reason I started renting it in the first place, and If I didnt snag SKs DBs that he was renting for months, I wouldnt be beating him at all.

This is all moot subject matter. Improvise, Adapt and Overcome then pwn your opponents this is the Strategic reasoning behind Carnageblender. Point is simple, changes may not be forthcoming and redressing all of the old points no matter how valid is an empty exercise. Play and despite the failings you see, they can be addressed at any time, focus on the fun of the game.

^ Agreed.

I do miss those DBs.

haha sorry JW, I couldn't resist them when I saw they were in rentals, and I haven't let them out of my hands since.

Someday when I get my own, you'll get 'em back... well assuming SK still rents them out ;)