Exbow: Oh, the horror (in Debates)

you must be doing it wrong.

I just laughed, Something about this made me smile.

I laugh all the time one hit takes me to - 20 million str.

Isn't the point here that 4 hits didn't do that to you?

Or am I missing the obvious?

I explained why my drains do so much damage, but to put it into some perspective on the amount of damage I do vs different sized AC

[Iron Golem] shot phantom [485171] vs 192 AC
[Iron Golem] shot tankwall [152024] vs 471 AC
[Iron Golem] shot rogue [628273] vs 1 AC
[Iron Golem] struck deep into enchantress [528202] vs 36 AC

Compare that with novices damage up top and my gear I listed in the other thread and you'll see why -my- drain specifically is so devastating.

Gear Recap:
Bracers of the Stone King [3] (+15)
An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x10000] (+150)
Strength: 8,760,000 / 4,000,000

Novice isn't using his tattoo..

Basically he could be hitting a lot harder with his elbow, I'm sure it's a single hit when his ToA and bgs are on...

Ex-bow*

yeah because a +290 bow missing with 5m Dex is nothing...

sheesh

I used heavy gear on to give myself a chance of living without dbs.

Not even using Belegs?

Please compare apples to something close.

I think my point still stands, I'm missing you with a +290 bow!

^ To my knowledge Novice has never used BGs with his ax/exbows, all I've ever seen on him were Tulka's. Though I could be wrong, obviously nov would know better then I would.

Also the only other person other then myself using BGs with an Exbow is ScrObot who's team is not in the top ranks. So really comparing apples to something similar boils down to looking at me here, as I can tell by your fight list I'm the only one fitting the description (from your last post) that is giving you any trouble Ranger.

You might include Kef in that list but I'm not entirely sure whether or not he drains you in one hit, I know it took him 2-3 to fully drain me, and that was before I added all the extra AC+SS.

As yet another example ShadowSparkle can't even drain me. It takes him 3 hits to drain my PL wall alone, then he gets 1 hit on my tank which doesn't even dent it.

Seems to me the only exbows you are complaining about are ones with about half as much NW pumped into them as your ELB, and are the strongest exbows in the entire game.

One hit=strength loss to below 0

Keep in mind for xeno to be where he is, he is putting thousamds into rentals for his weapons that he uses

What you need to be comparing is the amount you've spent in defense against the amount they've spent in their exbow.

So novice you are saying I have to spend 120+M on my DBs? Then add in all the Leadership bonuses to hit?

My DBs are 205, some exbows hitting me are 150ish.

and my +290 are missing you...

there is certainly an issue with the exbow's cth setup, it's far too random

Right now, with your using a ToA, you hit me every time in the first round of missile.

And in the last fight you hit me twice in the first round.

Draco brought up a good point >_> I spend roughly 1.5m+ per month on renting my gear, else I couldn't fight as high as I do. Not only that, but its not my gear so I can't even make adjustments to it or name it or do anything that would actually net me wins via the help of weapons (the exbow specifically) alone.

I don't have much money to throw at the game, nor have I been around long enough to have some of the gear/money some others in the top ranks have, so I do what I can to get by and defend myself as well as I can given my situation.

In all honesty I wouldn't even be using an exbow right now if you hadn't came back using a ToA+ELB based team which my setup can be very weak against especially if its vs a multi-minion team using that setup. Plus I got tired of buying up ToE's like crazy. The cheaper solution was to strap on the exbow I always rent for defense and get some free xp from time to time.

If I really wanted the win I could very easily make minor adjustments to my team to make that happen, I just don't feel like retraining yet again.

Yeah now with the ToA I'm at 353 or so with 13m instead of 5m dex...

dex advantage helps!

Yes,

Dex advantage does help a lot.

However having a dex advantage does not help getting never hit as 1 hit can take someone to negative 10+M strength.

And does having to rent items matter at all when discussing the exbow effect? Not really.

i dont get it you hit him 24 times in ranged, for 6 mill damage (rough estimate)
he hits you 3 times not far off 6 mill to (rough) ..

you have archery he has a huge (almost double) dex and strength and you both have similar sized ranged weapons.



Not including other armours (pretending/guessing they are close)surely if he does to much damage you hit him to often as your other minions dont actually help towards hits (ec/haste/etc)


*if im way off base with the above thats just how it seems to my basically a nub'self
**and all the exbow posts your posting arent doing you any favours if you are right ranger - just a heads up (i still read them though along with the replies but still..)

It all depends on when I get hit with the exbow.

I still hit 20+ times in melee, however I can do either 3-25M damage in melee. It is just when I get hit with the exbow all my damage stops for the rest of the battle.


Well no posts in the year I left did nothing to change the nature of the drain. The 3 main archers were gone mostly that year. SHD stopped playing a while ago, I quit, and so did Z. I cannot comment on why Z left (did not read the forums during that time), however the exbow was one of my main reason as it was for SHD from my conversations with him.

There was many reasons, both gamewise and personal, why I left. I came back for only 2 reasons, Windwalker was burned out running FGoD and Draco needed some help to pull away from the game due to personal reasons(which I understand).

Don't get me wrong the community is great, the game is fun for the most part however if not for personal ties I would not be here. Game mechanics need work, GUIs need to be updated, aesthetics need to be adjusted, new items and game options need to be introduced, balances need to be tended to(the Ax/ExBow chief among them imho) and finally a better chat needs to be introduced.

With the above in mind I understand that some of these things are just not going to happen while others are only ever going to be a maybe until they actually happen(which I will be grateful for). So I am now simply coasting along and letting everything else go about it's way. I'll give my opinion and if others don't like my opinion well so what sometimes I don't like theirs so I guess that makes us even.

My main concern presently is my fellow clan members, which I am extremely proud of, and my Char FGoD the rest is just so much blase crap other than my friends.

Just my thoughts on all of this back and forth anyway......

Ok i have really been trying to avoid getting into this particular debate as i honestly don't believe that the issue will ever be resolved. That being said, Ranger is 100% right on this. The stat draining xbows (enforcer's more obviously) are over-powered and cause a break in the game.

Today i had one of my favs start beating me. Curious why some with about 60% of my mpr & about equal nw was beating me I looked at the changes made...low and behold an exbow. Now a single hit from this exbow takes me from 2.3M st to -1.5M st thus making all of my trained exp & all my NW moot, ultimately leaving me unable to do damage for the rest of the fight. Now obviously we have seen many screenshots in several threads that show that this happens and we are only going to continue to go in circles about weather or not that is overpowered but let me pose a simple question to maybe changed the view-point some may be looking at this from.

What would happen if the mageseeker's damage was dropped one point but it was given the ability to drain dd spells into the negatives with a single hit?

Would anyone not want to put one on their team to nullify all mages? Would that be considered OP? Is that any different than the exbows ability to nullify any tank?

Food for thought

~WC~

Well at least I am not the complete and utter idiot that some were calling me in CM's.

I tried using the exbow. I found the investment required to rely on it was far far too costly. The only thing it was good for was stopping people from farming you as it was never reliable to actually farm things unless you invest in it just about as much as if you were using an ELB or the like. The only type of team it had a chance of doing it without a like investment was a melee tank reliant team only.

o boehooe stop complaining ranger we know you cant handel losing
there is nothing wrong with the exbow and you know it
there isnt any weapon that is overpowering, when you adjust it then there gone be a complained about another weapon till all weapons are useless, the bow is only used for 6 rounds that isnt alot so bows can use alittle power

stop complaing and try to find a way to cancel the exbow out without jon or ns nerving it

cheers WC for dumbing it down for me - yeah in your case id definatly be pee'd as the person with almost double the stats is now getting whooped (i get theres more to it than that but im a simple person lol).
Nov/Rangers seems to be almost the other way round example wise.


MGS explanation is a good comparison to as although its a bow id always compared it to ex/ax when getting down to the basics of a strat (i always did the EC thing though when messing with my small teams) ... i suppose the only real difference when compare like that could be the possible claim that theres a difference between the base(okay upgraded) weapon and that a base DD wouldnt work at all (not inculding armour on either etc) ... in which case i have to agree if i look at it like that ex/ax are over powered or the MGS works in a more rounded fair way (all three are slightly unfair as they target specific users but Que sera sera)

AoD, jump right in on the name calling instead of addressing the issue, that's always the way you win a debate.

I used to be a straight up TOA archer with my giant db's and upwards of over 10 mil strength with even more dex than that.

1 hit from an exbow and your tank is a sitting duck. It really doesn't matter if it happens in round 1 or 2 of ranged, from then on you are done.

Because of the Exbow, I quit playing Tank altogether even though it's one of my favorite strategies.

If you don't think that's messed up then your logic is flawed.

When novice uses his ToA and has more dex with an exbow that is almost as powerful as my elb, I have little problem.

When people with an exbow 1/2-1/3 the NW of my elb and 1/4th my dex hit me and nuke my tank with 1 hit I gots a problem.

PS: AoD, thanks for not changing my opinion of you over this past year. Some things, like the exbow and AoD never change.

sry mikel but ranger is like a baby, if he doesnt like something he goes and cry about it, he always been like that
there a strat he cant beat then he starts saying that is overpowering till he gets his way and is once again unbeateble till someone finds a new way, tank gear always been overpowering in comperison to mages so i dont see a problem
if you nerf the ax and ex bow then there will be a new item that will be overpowering, just find a way to overcome the drainage and stop crying

well ranger you still havent changed aswell, still the crying baby if you cant win

Novice, I thought NS did a bunch of testing on the exbow awhile back and found out it was fine. Im guessing the randomness you saw was from the extremely low bth and the high ranged penalties. The only way Id say that it would be easy to tell was if in different battles you hit twice in one round and 0 times in the same round in the other battle.

As for the other "topic" of this thread, the exbow is very easily countered and until people start using that counter, I have no sympathy.

Novice was not using a ToA when he missed me in the OP.

He was using a ToA when he hit me 2 times in the first round.

As to this "counter", ???

Titan-what counters? I used to think there were counters also but now from actually using the ex-bow.. It's a pretty ridiculous item for minimal net worth.. I honestly think cb would be better without it...

Also I can beat every tank in the game aside from novice without my ex-bow.. It's no longer a counter to big elven long Bows that we need.

L2AC

AC is the most OP thing in this game, yet still after Hatchet and Slated showed us how easily it can be abused still no one uses it.

Don't forget about my tank and what about Z?

And I agree. At one time, perhaps in the past esp before PL and the RBF, it may have been needed. But even then there were the RoS characters who killed ELB users quicker than they killed others.


Thanks for the honesty from an exbow user!!

Right now Novice, Mikel, AA, King all beat me.

Large AC doesnt work... Xeno hits dudemus"s tank for well over 100k.. That's more than enough to get full strength drain on just about every character..

Also it's well documented AC isn't really possible with a ToA

counters that aren't 100% in line with Ranger's preferred strat are unwelcome... ToA archers with minimal AC and a single defensive item MUST win!

You're not even on my fightlist Ranger... the GA you're using for additional offense instead of investing in defensive keeps me away.

Because PL which worked really well on the SAME team you're using now in keeping drain at bay isn't a good enough solution...

Like I said before xeno who has kind of low strength and Dex hits dudemuses tank for 150k, that tank has 471 AC..

It'd literally be a waste of money to think AC will save you from the exbow..

AC can be avoided, like with the VB or with DD spells or the RBF over time. But there are many ways around it.

Dude does use heavy AC very very well.

In fact, without my DM, with his SS casting, my ELB does 0 damage to his wall 1/3rd of my hits, about 100-200k on the others.

shot tankwall with stone spitter [62712]

that's the max hit I saw on him with 13m STR and +16 belegs...

Its only use of DM+exbow that gets through the wall. Most exbow users however don't use DM because exbow means you have to fight in melee where AMF is usually the better choice.

Novice, I expected a lot more than you, especially as you are an admin now, than direct attacks on my character.

Your statement above is 100% incorrect. Character that beat me like King, or Mikel, or AA do it fairly. Not with a cheap trick of the game.

ToA archers do well, of course, but they should not be subject to the most abusive item I have seen an any online game I have played.


How would addition xp from that minion work in any way vs you novice? Please tell me how. That minion has 7M DM and now has 1/2 DM and 1/2 GA. Would SS to 1.25M work instead of GA? Another what, 9 AC? Poppycock!!!

So how would that xp, "investing in defensive" help me vs the exbow?


PL works for 1 hit only. If the drain is enough to take my tank well into the negatives, it takes my PL minion well into the negatives and hit number 2 does the job.

Perhaps it worked really well as the character was using a different, non-ToA strategy.

So I guess in novice's universe, the ToA should be subject to the only item that neuters a minion, all its nw and its tattoo since the ToA archer is just too fraking powerful?

Even though the top 2 archers now, Z and myself, lose to quite a few other, non-exbow characters.

Including:

RoS characters with heavy AS/GA
Mixed characters like AA's
RBF characters with high defense. Dude would crush me if I did not have a large DM.

Certainly every tank should be forced to use a 471 AC armor set. Forget about using any other item but you have to use a complete armor set backed by SS and fight only non-DM character.

PL doesn't just work for one his if you set it up right...

Check your fightlist feck, AC does just fine... Not to mention ACcounters the exbow, elbows, GA and everything else in the game.

Not really Titan.. More like very high melee dd damage does just fine as I hinted to in a previous thread..

What part of it wasn't true? Hyperbolic sure... but you've made it clear that you're unhappy that you're unable to run a ToA archer because it has a direct counter strat that is vulnerable from below... in the same way that DM allows folks to fight up against 20 HP AS teams, or RoBF MgS teams can fight way up on pure mages. It's part of the game and instead of adapting you're on a political campaign against it...

The proposed strength generating item has a good chance at making the game more interesting, I hope you'll give it chance if/when it gets released instead of lobbying against it because it's not what you want.

Zenai just kind of get's single shotted first round of melee lol (sorry Z!)

Your character is a tad bit trickier though, now that it has the GA with SG.. >.>

You cannot set it up "just right" on a non-toe or heavy AC tank.
I have tried many variation but due to variability in damage even 2 PL minions do not work. Since the first has to complete die before the other takes over.

If you can show us what "just right" is to stop a few hits from taking my str to negatives vs all the exbow users who deal different damages, I will stop on my exbow threads.

Deal?

People say do this or that or change to a xxxx character. Fine. But no other item forces you to almost have to abandon a particular tattoo or lose if hit.

The RBF can be beat by any type character. The elbow at 100m nw on a lower dex character can completely destroy a minion in 1-2 hits.

I still fail to see how people can believe it is " balanced". Give me a bow that takes out the RBF or mage familiar in 1-2 hits at 100m nw and 2m dex? Fair now?

What I had setup was a PL bat with a few hundred k in dex and as much as 2m STR. It's been a while but the result was that it would take a most of ranged to drain the str on the PL wall...

I get why it bothers you so much man, but you ignore the part where without the exbow as it is the options for non-archer tanks vanish quickly.

I totally agree ...

SoD/Mageseeker damage is just pathetic these days.. It's either Elbow or specialty crossbow (otherwise you're johhnnyWas ;P, who's strategy I really like)...

This whole situation demands a system wide rescale! Yes I said it throw a fit but with these extremes battling back and forth it needs to be redone completely. Not just on one but both sides and everything else needs a few touchups here and there to boot. The system that is here was not made for this it was made for a few years ago it doesn't fit anymore.

There are plenty of SoD users as well as melee tanks out there. Such as AA, or JW at the top ranks.

Yes, melee tanks have a problem. A huge one. But I attribute that just as much to the NS than archery. AMF is not as effective as it was in the past and mages have a huge benefit that tanks do not.


The direct counter strat is the equivalent of insta loss. No other strategy that has a direct counter has the equivalent.

I take it then you would not be adverse to a leeching exbow vs DD and RBF levels. Just like the exbow?

As DM lets you fight up vs 20hp AS teams, how many do not use the RoS, which is a counter to the counter to the .....etc...

What is the counter to the exbow for an archer which is the counter to the archer.

Sure it is part of the game. But it is very unbalanced.


That of course would depend on the item. If it was a cloak or body armor, of course not. A new melee weapon, likely no as we discussed in our CMs. It would also depend on the rate of regeneration. And if the regeneration is from 0 or the -20M my strength typically is in most battles. Regeneration over 20 rounds would not be good. Over 4, possibly better.

But I have never lobbied against it as you try to put those words on my keyboard. I suggested it being a part of the ToA as a possibly option. Until I see something from the devs in writing, I would be hard pressed to completely comment.

I do hope in the future you can keep your posts free of personal attacks on me and my motives. I expect better from the admins of this game.

Oh stop being so pissy, you're frustrating as hell to argue with and you know it. If I get emotional I'm sorry, but I'm the only person trying to work with you and you need to recognize that.

x25000 named elven long bow:

Strength 8.9M vs 8 AC

Ichi shot with The Man with the Ski Mask [799289]
Ichi hit with The Man with the Ski Mask [1042198]
Ichi struck deep into with The Man with the Ski Mask [1109964]
Ichi skewered with The Man with the Ski Mask [1235028]

Strngth 551k

Ichi shot with The Man with the Ski Mask [263034]
Ichi shot with The Man with the Ski Mask [263572]
Ichi shot with The Man with the Ski Mask [208631]
Ichi shot with The Man with the Ski Mask [319005]

So there is a difference of about 1M a hit to 250k a hit.

My final questions:

Is not drain to below 1M strength not good enough?
Why do we have to have a 10+ million drain?
Why do we need to completely have to destroy the tanks ability to do any damage?
If the elb is that uber powerful that we have to have an item that completely and totally reduces its damage to <1k a hit than as Z states, a total redo should be in order.

I have much less problem with the axbow as you can still hit with PTH, leadership and ToA bonuses. Or have a chance to hit and do some damage.

I'll ask Nat to post or link to where she explains it, but as I understand it it wouldn't be regen at all. Generation is the key word here... and I for one am interested to see where the idea would go.

That would be good, but unless the developers chime in with a positive that the exbow does need something changed in some manner, what Nat posted is basically moot.

Right now there are 5 high NW elbs in use. 1 high NW MSB in use. 5-6 high level SoDs in use.

There is one high level exbow in use with 3 other moderate NW exbows in use.

There are 0 axbows at a moderate or high NW in use.

If the elb was that powerful, as powerful as people say, why are not all the non-exbow users using it?

What? Why?

Because SoDs are powerful versus multi minion AS teams.

And what forms the majority of the top 10?

So there's an equal distribution in ranged weapons between the two most powerful. The ELBow and SoD. What's the issue there?

The issue that I continue to read is that the ELB is too powerful that is HAS to have a counter in the exbow.

However, the stats do not lie. The SoD is just as used.

If the ELB is that powerful, fix that instead of having an (IMO) unbalanced item unlike anything in CB. That is my point.

There is only one problem with the exbow, and that's the binary effect the weapon has. A solution that does not solve this problem is no solution at all.

This.

I can't but echo Titan here.

And the issue Ranger is that *if* the EXBow didn't exist, then you wouldn't see an equal distribution between ELBows and SoD. It would be ELBow all the way.

We've all said, form day one, that the Elbow is currently so powerful it needs the EXBow. And the stats show it.

If the ELBow was already the only used Ranged weapon, *with* the EXBow, well then, wouldn't that imply the EXBow would need to be buffed? ;)

Ok,

Some really great points and discussion.


That is one of my points. It is so binary. As I posted in this or the other adjacent thread, cut a tanks strength to 500k and the damage is significantly reduced. Is that not good enough or do we need total annihilation of the archer?


Of this I will disagree. If there was no exbow, I doubt anyone using the SoD currently will change to the ELB. Well maybe a couple. But the SoD is good for what it does, multiminion hits. The exbow works vs all tanks, both elb or SoD or melee only.


That is not correct. All is not true. I have said if, as have others. I believe the elb is powerful, but not out of line with the RBF or the NS in how it works and what it does. There are more ways now, more than ever, to take out ELB users. Without the RoS fallback.


As I stated, the ELB is NOT the only used Ranged Weapon. The SoD is used just as much if not more. There are really only 3 choices now for ranged and the MsB used to be good. However with the TSA/PL/HP minions out there on almost every mage character, the MsB does not enough overall damage to do its stated job.

I would really like to see a buff on the MsB to ignore or partially ignore PL to make it worthwhile again. The current stats on the MsB usage prove it is not good enough now.

If ranged damage is too much, then perhaps lowering the + on the BGs would be a nice start. Or the PTH of the ELB. Only if you get rid of or significantly change the exbow effect.

I'd also like a cap on the amount of AS that can be dispelled, EC, and AC... ain't gonna happen.

I had a whole post about how increasing the spread of the sweet spot where the exbow drains but not completely would be great, but the bottom line is the a team that invests solely in offense naturally has counters.

A melee weapon that generates an amount of strength per melee round based on the x of the weapon would be a heck of solution...

It's all about Ranged going first Ranger.

Who cares aobut your Uber RoBF, or Best in Slot NSC, if the ELbow user kills a minion each round in ranged and kills your entire team before you get to go.

That's the issue.

It's damage, going first and 100% base CTH is too good a package.

By far...

Tone the EXBow down and you *will* see CB overrun by the ELbow.

All that will be left are the high AC Walls.

Construct (F) (+) 5 2 1 0 62.50 9.6 4:03 PM EDT
| Priest of Rathma | (F) (+) 42 7 0 1 84.00 7.6 12:40 PM EDT
Team Rocket (F) (+) 3 2 0 0 60.00 9.2 1:01 PM EDT

Indeed this a gross injustice, I understand the errors of my ways now. You are right, lets allow the steamrolling of all characters except for two of the top 5 teams. Sounds perfectly fair with all sorts of logic.


If we are on this road I vote we nerf DBs, since I can barely hit any tank more with them then once/if at all since all my PTH gets canceled out completely with a measly 40m nw, all those teams with 200+ dbs are just completely unfair to even try to hit with physical damage without a ToA tank yourself.

Tell that to Dude, or King or other non Ranged weapon characters in the top 10. Mikel or Draco. MM or JW. Lots of characters exist without ranged attack.

We are at the point for more than 50% of my tattles, I do not kill a minion a round. And some of those where I do, RoS users, I kill myself just as fast.


Is it better to let someone 1m MPR lower and less NW get cheap defensive wins from a weapon that is 120M NW and 1M dex?

I would love an item that would let me do that to the RBF or RoS characters. Just nerf their tattoo with 1 hit. Winning!!!

| Priest of Rathma | (F) (+) 13 4 0 0 76.47 11.2 5:09 PM EDT

BTW Xeno, that is you attacking me.

Winning 3/4th of the time.

Is that really fair? Really??

I was using a ToA to do that

We still have the EXBow...

Come on Ranger, don't be obtuse on purpose.

Hmm maybe looking for the amount of dex that I can't actually hit would be the better option for you, its not hard to find, there are plenty of tanks I cant even scrape.

Oh and if you wanna look at it that way I guess its not fair that I was beating novice at 2m MPR lower then him and a quarter of his NW with a 1m decay and an EF. Those 10m decay hits are brutal, game breaking even. Wiping out 20m hp in 2 rounds? Truly game breaking.

It is novice that uses a low level AMF.

I have tried 8 million dex On my old character to no avail.

Oh I forgot to add that it was actually to prove a point. Even matching your dex, having +200 dbs, the exbow I use, my +36 to leadership, all the extra pth that a 10m level ToA gives, and having over 6m more str then you while using my MoD (x10k +150). I still couldn't hit you 100% of the time, nor could I beat you 100% of the time.

DBs are OP, they make all the pth on my weapon useless at only 40m nw, they must be reworked.

Don't understand your point JW.

We have the exbox, ok?

We also have many strats in the top 10 without missile attacks that are a primary attack.

We also have SoDs and ELBs. We have pretty flowers to.

So what's your point?

500k isn't that low level...

I think that's one area we will disagree.

Lowering damage by 75% is not gfod enough? It has to be 100% to be effective?

I disagree.

Rescale there problem fixed. As I said before the system we are working within right now was not made to deal with this high end strain and as a result is slowly breaking. It will only get worse over time but hey what do I know I'm not a programmer/coder nor do I have access to CBs backdoor. I'm just looking at things and seeing the pattern, the higher we get in MPR and Item NW without an update the more unbalanced things are becoming, the logic seems to fit to me................

Idk.. I'd say the game is very balanced..

Eventually in theory dd"s will over take physical damage but that has yet to happen yet.. With a few tweaks we can keep the train rolling down the same track for a couple more years at least...

Also as someone mentioned before the only way to truly balance the game is to have all the spells and physical damage do exactly the same thing, just with different names..

I myself don't think a cb like that would be very interesting..

Oh the game is balanced for a ceiling max of about 2 years ago. Slowly we are growing out of the shell Kef and when this happens you start to see things become OP or UP. This is all a result of us as the player base outgrowing the original parameters set for us in game. Now yes a few of the mechanics are set to autoscale, hence why a many things seem fine. It is the mechanics that have to be set by hand that are causing the problems. If we rescale then we reset the problems until we hit said ceiling again, but for now it is the best choice we have if no true changes are going to be made.

I already made the plee for the game to be adjusted for the future hope of any non USD tanks. But, it fell on deaf ears.

Second time you've done that. ;)

Seriously, we're different people. A few CBers have met both of us in real life. But i'll excuse you confuzzling both the lime-ies. ;)

The point I was making, was that *now* we have a nice distribution of top end Ranged Weapons.

That's *with* the EXBow existing.

We haven't seen use of the ELBow drop to near nothing and everyone use a SoD because of it.

So.

If we totally remove the current ELBow counter (the EXBow), then we *will* see this disappear. The ELBow is *so* powerful in it's own right, it will become the default weapon of CB.

Who cares about you CoC, MoD, RoBF, Decay, etc, etc.

When the ELBow goes first, can't be dodged (hi hi 100% base CTH) kills any minion in a single round, and kills your entire team before you get to act.

Unless you're using an ELBow of course.

Or a max AC wall set-up and for some reason the ELBow archer doesn't have enough DM to strip your SS.

Strategy goes out of the window. No need to worry about Melee, Decay, most of the stuff in the game. As you get to go first and one shot everything.

Win?

(No. That doesn't happen *now*, because we have the EXBow, among other things.)

Totally disagree.

This has been claimed every year for the last 6 years, since the inception of CB2.

It's never appeared.

Cash rewards increase the larger you get, and ENC doesn't do enough to limit weapon size for this to ever be an issue with linear weapon X costs.

i think, for every weapon theres 1 perfect counter, adjust one item and so the whole nerfing will go in circles..

GL: I feel I have to address the following.


Not always, Dex, Evasion and DB's make for a very frustrating fight even with a high end ELB with the + heavily invested in. There are several that I just cannot fight because of these combinations even with the highest Dex in the game (12 Mil) and a 17 Mil level ToA bolstering the + 115 on my ELB and my Dex (+5Mil). Not arguing just pointing out the 100% CTH is overrated/stated.


Or any of several other methods, Incompetent Misfits can monkey stomp me and the name of the game is functioned JKF just to start it off.


No such thing with a ELB GL, maybe within several shots if the opponent has low AC, HP, Dex, Evasion and DB's. This is still not on par with a ExBow's one shot drain on most tanks.....note I said most not all.

I disagree 100%. Why does the exbow only effect the ELB usage? People will use whatever high end missile weapon they want. If the exbow goes away or becomes actually balanced, people will still keep the same missile weapon they use.

If the SoD was better for my character, I would use that with or without the exbow.

And if, which is a large IF, the exbow gets eliminated or fixed to working in what I feel is correctly, the elb is the only missile weapon used ever, then fix the elb.


Again I will 100% disagree with you. I do not kill 1 minion a round. 50% or more of my battles last into melee. With all the PL/TSA/HP minions out there it is almost impossible for me to kill 1 minion a round. And with 100 DBs or some evasion, I cannot kill some minions in 2-3 round. Look at my recent battles if you doubt that.

You are making false statements and taking them as fact.


There already is one for the ELB. AS/GA. Even better if used on a RoS minion. Look at any other elb users fightlist. I have 3 different damage types on my minion so I find ways around the RoS in most cases.

We even have a 2nd for all the "awesome unbeatable" ELB users. The JKF especially if junctioned. I only beat MM due to my AS/GA axis of damage. I can occasionally hit his JKF, but PL/HP/TSA makes none of the damage stick to the JKF.

So we already have 2 great perfect counters to the ELB.

So again, why do we need such a cheapish foil as the exbow?

Is it just me or do people have an unrealistic opinion of the ELB as all powerful, all winning? I wish it were that way.

http://imgur.com/6BGh3

This is the fight between Zen and myself right now... there isn't a lot of wiggle room if you're in the camp that believes that it should be possible for a pure tank team to defeat an archer without becoming one themselves. Even with his extremely limited damage reduction (which is still four points higher than Ranger's) and limited HP it still takes multiple hits to drain him. I've specialized heavily to get to this point, and I'm not sure why you expect a highly offensive team not to have vulnerabilities like the exbow. If you were matching the NW of Xeno's exbow with your dbs it'd give your argument a little more weight, as it is I'm just not sure what you think you're going to accomplish.

Take the PTH of the exbow and the PTH of my DBs and they more than overcome the exbow.

However, add in things like Leadership and DBs cannot overcome PTH. That is simple math 101.

Your first exbow shot takes his damage down from about 4M to 1.5M a hit. Is that not like WOW, 2/3 damage reduction from 1 hit. ANd your 2nd takes him to doing <1k a hit.

HOWEVER,

There are plenty of foils for the ELB and ranged damage other than the exbow. Like GA, or heavy AC. If you are having problems with Z, how about doing what you tell us, max your armor.

I would like to see the battle between you and Z without your exbow and you using your ToA. A non-ToA tank vs a ToA tank should expect to get smoked almost all the time.

That is what a multiminon character is for. That is what kill slots are for.

IMO, trying to play a melee tank as a single minion is a fool's errand. Unless you resort to items like the exbow as your crutch.

Hahah, thanks Ranger I needed that laugh

Why couldn't you have said that from the start?

Only archers should be capable of being a long term tank strat... that's your opinion and you're sticking to it.

Ichi shot tankwall with The Man with the Ski Mask [427954]
phantom absorbs damage [427,954]
Ichi hit tankwall with The Man with the Ski Mask [375149]
phantom absorbs damage [375,149]
Ichi hit tankwall with The Man with the Ski Mask [591373]
phantom absorbs damage [591,373]
Ichi hit tankwall with The Man with the Ski Mask [539260]
phantom absorbs damage [539,260]
Ichi hit tankwall with The Man with the Ski Mask [487413]
phantom absorbs damage [487,413]

A typical round vs Dudemus and his 471 AC with a tingle, 200k, SS casting.

Dude has couple ways to lower that damage from 5 hits down to 3-4 a round using evasion but uses AP to help vs SG/EF. It is his choice of course.

However, even with my uber massive damage all winning ELB, it still takes me 14 or so rounds to finally win. Which is 8 rounds of melee combat for which a melee tank can whack me down to size. Or SG and decay can chew me up. Or the RBF can fry me. etc..

So now we have the following as foils for the ELB:

1) GA/AS, made really powerful with the RoS.
2) Heavy AC.
3) JKF especially junctioned.
4) MoD/SoC combo on a tank backed by a TSA/HP/PL minion absorbing damage. The SoC is very powerful in its own right due it being the first layer of reduction, absorbing a LOT of damage and storing it. Vs some characters, they do 20+M a hit in melee with it.
5) The exbow.

So again, why do we still need a binary item that 1-2 hits = paperweight minion.

And there you go, yet again making assumptions.

A non-toa tank single minion will have a lot of problem without the exbow. Yes I agree 100% to that. Especially if they use a tattoo.

However, melee tanks are most viable on multiminion setups.

But, if you play a single minion, it is possible to have a melee tank. You just need a lot of AMF and perhaps some GA to help you into melee.

Just like single minion CoC or SG mages are quite difficult to play at the upper levels. So by your thinking, should there be something that nerfs MM and FB so COC mages have a chance?

But you seem to be stuck on the fact that the exbow just HAS to be able to drain strength to below 0. 500k strength left is unacceptable to you. No middle ground on the drain. 100% of nothing. >1k damage is the only thing that novice will take as a final result?

C'mon man. 500k strength is still a 66+% damage reduction.

Now who is unreasonable?

Then why not cap everything? You not defending yourself against a counter is a poor reason to cap something.

I love the idea of something bringing str and/or dex back in melee, I'm all for adjusting the sweet spot of the exbow to increase the spread of partial drain all the way to nearly the top. I do however believe that ranged physical damage deserves a physical counter, and that that counter should be capable of actually doing it's job.

A 66% reduction in damage when teams are capable of massive overkill doesn't mean a whole lot. Quad hits for a mil still kill just fine...
I've got almost 240 evasion and Zenai consistently double hits me the last four rounds of ranged... reducing damage by even half is meaningless. Any cap fair enough to keep things balanced would be too low to make you happy...

Thank you for making my point.

Z hits you 2x for 3.5M in the last 2 rounds of missile. That is 14M damage those 2 rounds.

Cut that to 1M a hit and that is 4M total.

You have 23M hp. You should laugh at that pathetic damage and then chop him up with your massive VB in melee, when he misses you due to no melee weapon.

So you want total immunity from damage instead of partial? Now who is asking too much?


Have you read my posts? Bueller? Most of my fights now get into melee. Overkill is not something I see now. Esp with the PL/TSA/HP minions almost everyone has right now.

I think quite a few people are still stuck on the early CB2 days. The days before the SoC, PL, the TSA and the RBF.

Yes, I will say the ELB in the beginning was quite powerful. And could see, not agree with, but see why the exbow was in the game.

But there have been so many changes that the ELB is not the all powerful insta win item people continue to say it is.

It also needs a LOT of NW to work well and the ToA to work at its best. As someone stated in the past: To maximize its potential.

However, now the exbow is not needed to even the playfield as there are at least 4 ways to beat ELB/ToA users, all of which do not involve the exbow. All of which are fair, strategy orientated methods. All of which beat any ToA/ELB user fairly.


There is a physical counter. Evasion, the JKF, and heavy AC. All do very well. Put evasion on a heavy wall, use a RoS to help with SS and you have a winner.

Then why not cap everything? You not defending yourself against a counter is a poor reason to cap something.

Simple. The exbow is a unique type item. No other item works in the same way, a drain. Unique items need unique solutions.

How about this:

Add the following to the HoE: 1% strength recovery from 0 or current strength (whichever is higher) starting last missile round at the end of the round like the TSA.

Right now the HoE is not used by archers, except AA. It is used by melee tank so they would not have to give anything up.

Archers and missile users would have to choose. 5 rounds of missile with a chance to regenerate strength vs 6 rounds of missile with possible loss of strength.

I was actually the one pushing the Helm... certainly not the HoE though.

Nat's idea is better, it actually adds something to the game! A melee weapon that generates str based on the x of the weapon will forever alter the landscape of CB, and I for one can't wait.

I would be completely against a new weapon.

For 1, ENC problems. Get rid of ENC and another weapon is better.

For 2, The base damage would have to be near the VB. One cannot have strength regeneration and good damage. Remember how powerful the VB was with its armor cutting ability, 1-H and high damage. O by the way, I was one of the 2 people pointing out how powerful it was in the forum and eventually got it nerfed. And lost 50M CB while doing it. So do not say I always try to make my character more powerful as I took a huge hit back then.

For 3, It is right to have to spend another 120M+ CB to counter a broken item? I do not think so.

An item that given regeneration should be a choice. Adding regeneration to the HoE would help most of the other non-exbow users and give missile users a choice. Unless one still thinks that 5 rounds of the ELB is still utterly too powerful.

Remember I have a 17 Mil level ToA that adds 5 Mil in Dex to my already Impressive 12 Mil base as well as adds 13Mil Str(with other items) to my 5 Mil base. Add into this equation my ELB has x26K and+ 115 and I have BGs that add 51% to my overall damage I had better be able to hit you and in turn hurt you since this is my specialization in Ranged.


Note this would include ExBow users as well, as even ExBow users are susceptible to their own brethren.


I do have to say I would like to at least see this new item in action. Honestly it doesn't have to be the only answer to the ExBow, a leveling of the ELB AND the ExBow can be done. Having something new would be nice to shake things up imho.

So basically its pick and choose?

"I don't want this item in game because I find it cheap and unfair, but I don't want a new item that would help alleviate this entire issues in the game because of the enc limits that I've pushed myself to the max already for and I wouldn't be able to use it."

That's all I hear. Beggers cant be choosers.

Oh also, I never said that I wasn't for the idea of the exbow being reworked a bit and doing a certain % of drains per hit and not being a 1-shotter (only if the exbow is big enough that is, which most are not) even though different ways to get around that to avoid getting drained by an exbow all together have been already been presented.. but I digress.

At least I'm completely for new items being introduced into the game that would allow for str/dex regen to recover from drains. Be it a different helm or a new weapon, whatever it might be I'm for the idea. You apparently str not, or you only are if it falls in line with you being able to use one.

Simple.

The ELBow is designed ot be purely offensive.

To get the most bang for your buck you layer ToA, BG, condense it all on a single minion and go all out offense.

Bang, bang, bang, minion dead per round.

This *specialisation* leaves no room for defensive set ups, it's doesn't need it.

Which leaves it the most vulnerable to the EXBow.

A team using another Ranged weapon (like the MageSeeker) has room to use defense, and be less vulnerable to the EXBow.

Remove the EXBow, and make what is specifically weakers to it, well, not weak, and you've just bumped the power of all out offense thorugh the roof.

And there's limited other defense to it, and being soooo good, people flock to it.

If you can't live through ranged, then there's no pint being anything but ranged in return.

One of the largest flaws with CB.

There is a difference between an item that has some use and a new item that will not be used.

Elven Stiletto anyone?

Yea, let us add to the ES the strength regeneration, that's the ticket!!!

C'mon, if the weapon is decent perhaps, but then archers would have to spend 120+M NW just to counteract the exbow?

A typical fight against ranger, using my regular old setup. This is the fight he sees all but 10% of the time he fights me. My defense and my PL completely gone by round 4, My main damage dealer wiped out by round 5, the rest of the team dead at round 6, and a final tap to kill off the regen'd PL minion at the end, which isn't shown. So yeah, again, who is farming you with this thing? And why shouldn't we have a counter to someone who can do 4-10m damage -per round- during ranged again?

We do!!

It is called AC. Or call it GA/AS/RoS.

Or call it large DBs like Mikel. Or have a large ELB/SOD in turn.

Just because it is not something you want to use does not make it not be there.

Of all the posts I read, it is all that the ELB is all this and that without any counters.

There freaking are 3-4 great counters to the ELB.

Do we really need an item that makes a tanks strength down below 0 in 1-2 shots without any chance currently of reversibility?

I am sure you will twist this and say something along the lines of "well you choose not to defend properly vs the exbow". That is fair, if there were no other counters or just 1 perhaps.

But we have 4 counters without needing the exbow.

Ranger you are so unbelievably bull headed that I can't do this much longer. Originally an entire new item be it helm or weapon was brought up to counter act this exact issue, no adjusting current items, something entirely new. We could get a new helm that does the exact same thing we were just discussing, why does it have to be the HoE? Because it falls in line with what you already have? No screw that make it a new helm that EVERYONE has to buy/upgrade/decide to use or not, in order to be fair to everyone else.

You want to stop your exbow drain problem? Put staggering near base PLs on each minion but your damage dealer and give them all at least 30 str. That would completely put an end to this entire argument. But no strategy and defense plays no part in this game at all apparently.

If I had your team and your gear, before you wrecked dagobah, you'd be unbeatable right now. You just cant figure out how to do it, and you don't want to change your mind to fit the current state of CB right now.

Ok so I either need to have 200m for the AC required to reduce you somewhat, the -MPR advantage- on you using a AS/GA/RoS, a pair of dbs worth close to 150m or more, or become exactly what you are, and have no diverse choice on strategies vs the many other opponents I have to face.

You dont seem to want to use PLs to absorb the drain, or get more dex to stop getting hit by the exbow, or add more to your DBs for better avoidance. I'd say all those things are there but you don't seem to want to use them either, yet you are suggesting that everyone else does?

You are delusional, and I am done with this.

I would like to point out something here if I may, the ExBow is used primarily for Archers but this weapon takes out ANY tank with Str. So let's keep this in mind if you would.

That alone shows me and now the rest of CB that you have absolutely no understanding of exbow drain and and PL usage. If it was that easy, do you not think I would be using it.


1) I did not "wreck" Dagobah. In fact, for my equipment I changed it for the better.

2) Since you have little understanding of how PL and the exbow drain work, best if you go back and reread things to make better informed points.

3) I would be happy to debate strategy with you anytime. Remember I held the top spot with the exbow in place for years. Even had a few 15k+ win streaks.

But all this coming from a person who rents the exbow and uses it to beat me, with or without the ToA. No wonder you love it, its free xp for an item you just rent and slap on your character.

With that, I will refuse to respond to you Xeno. At least until you understand what you are typing about.

Don't understand how the exbow drain works with PL? I have both PL and I fight people who use the exbow, and I fight people who use PL. I know exactly what I'm talking about. As long as the PL minion can take the damage or the exbow hit doesn't kill whoever its targeting, the PL minion will always absorb partial damage but the full drain. The method I said doesnt work with your strat now that I think about it cause of AS so each minion wont die off activating the next PL, but one PL minion alone with some str would do the trick. Trust me I know how it works, I keep forgetting you still have some AS, as with your last char I DMed it completely, which would have made the method I just said work.


You want me to not use the exbow so you can get your precious 10% wins, then completely open myself up to any hal or MsK strat, considering my main damage dealer is my EF and its there to protect it. I think not. This exbow isn't for you, nor is it for the free xp I get off you from random wins which I've already told you how to stop multiple ways.

Sorry I don't throw cash at games and I can't afford the massive weapons needed to fight high so I got to rent them. Guess I should've never went with a mixed team right? Should've just went mage only since apparently renting anything that happens to be available is a bad thing, and I'm wrong for doing so. Guess I shouldn't even bother with a partial tank unless I got the funds to back it up right off the bat. That's totally my fault you're right I should just throw $1000 at the game so I can keep myself in the top ranks rather then use what was available to me at the time.

Then why the hell are you saying anything, if it obviously didnt affect you then, nor does it really affect you now. Why bring it up at all? So you can get rid of those random losses? Or is it some vigilante ideal that this weapon is a gross injustice to all tanks in the game, and that for their sake you must save them all from this atrocity. I highly doubt that.

So I'm wrong for using what was available to me to defend against completely different people other then yourself, wayyyy before you ever came back? Ha-freaking-ha.

https://sites.google.com/site/exbowdie/

Horror is half a million mpr down from Construct, but without my exbow my PR is almost even.

If you look at the link above you'll see what it looks like when I don't have my exbow equipped. I've got 88m in my dbs, 100m NW added by my RoBF to that, an AoI, and almost double the dex Ranger does. He still hits me, and damn hard. It takes me about 4 rounds to drain Ranger completely with this setup, so it's not even enough to be able to actually add him to my fightlist most of the time. So after spending hundreds of millions of CB, almost half my total NW on pure defense I get told that I'm cheating, and that my team isn't a valid strat.

How to beat the elven long bow without using an ex-bow.

Sorry Zenai!

https://sites.google.com/site/trversefgod/

No offense but the flip side of this rings true as well since the same mindset can applied. Honestly this is a back and forth can only be settled in one way. Agree to Disagree and let it go.

What flip side Zen?

To make your strat work you are putting your all into it and take offense when told you are using an abusive item or cheating. Well the ELB users feel the same(at least I do), and to add insult to injury they have to train a skill to use their weapon of choice and even have an item especially made for them because the same view is applied.............it is offensive.



Just my thoughts.........

It should read: weapon of choice and even have an item especially made for "Countering" them because the same view is applied.............it is offensive.

Let me give some perspective here on how ridiculous this entire thing is to me.

I have 10m DM, any ED user who cannot block that sized DM, I completely make that character a kill slot, rendering all the xp and money spent on it useless. I do this to almost every RoS team other then King. Entire teams taken out by one spell all rendered as kill slots.. because it counters them.

Mikel casts amf against my 10m familiar for over .50 while I'm using +15 NSCs. It kills itself off in 2-3 rounds, and winds up being completely useless for that fight... because amf counters it.

Not only that but Mikel also has over +230 DBs, so I cant even hit his wall... which is the counter to my PTH and physical damage. He renders my entire team a kill slot as none of them can do anything to damage him.

Do you see where I am going with this? If not let me sum it up: There is something for everyone that can completely render all the xp/nw/tattoos on some other teams completely useless. The exbow is not the only thing in this game to do so.

To try to make an example out of one item, when many of the same things can be said about multiple other items/spells in the game, is biased beyond belief.

I could be whining about DBs in the same way you are whining about the exbow. DBs are overpowered and can be bought on the cheap rendering the majority of PTH on most tanks useless at 40m nw, but I don't hear anyone complaining about those now do I?

How about I go on and just flat out say I think PTH all together is messed up and completely needs to be redone, as anyone who is able to hit 5 times in 1 round for over 2m damage is wrong and unfair. DD only gets one hit per round at no where close to that kind of damage, especially during ranged. How about all physical attackers can attack twice per round if they have the dex advantage, once per round if they dont. Get rid of PTH and DBs all together because I don't agree with its place in the game. Hows that sound?

Make everything on both sides homogenous so that melee and DD are both the exact same things with different names. How about that? Make it so that money cant even possibly be a factor in the game because I disagree with it and I think its wrong. And since I disagree with it so strongly, it must absolutely be 100% true and needs to be addressed right now. Sound good?

Hence why I said:


The point is every one has their own ideas/opinions and are passionate about them. No matter how many walls of text some will just not listen or even admit your points have any validity. This will just be a vicious circle of finger pointing Recently everything just fell into place for me when it seemed everything was falling apart, I found my place of perceptual Zen so to speak. So either way I am at peace because I know one absolute truth, it doesn't matter any more than I allow it to.

To be fair, that's becuase DBs compared to weapon PTH is very balanced.

DBs have the same upgrade cost for -PTH, that the big 4/5 weapons have for thier +PTH. So they (equally) cancel each other out.

Weapons still have the edge through Leadership and the ToA, which you can't do anything about.

^ GL that leads into the second two paragraphs, and was in no way meant to be taken at face value, nor is it my actual opinion. The final 3 paragraphs were used to make my point about the way all of these posts seems to me.

But I can do it in an even shorter manner.

"I don't think this is right, so it should be changed, and if it doesn't get changed I will whine and whine until it does."

Sums up every single post and the way it comes off to me.

To that I say: More Pew Pew, less QQ.

Of course. ;)

But I was really commenting on;


As for;


Well, that's something I'd *love*. ;) Cosmetic, Vanity, Fun extras, sure! Even the small benefits things like Naming give.

But I've always been on the side that cash should have no influence on the strategy of CB. To be honest it's one reason I push for a perm tournament.

That way we get a CB that both sides would want to play in. ;)

^I'm 100% with you on a perm tourney.

I want multiple tourneys really, like one that lasts 6-12 months, another that runs indefinitely like the regular game (cb hardcore mode if you will, since there are no transfers allowed), and then the admins can hold special ones whenever they want.

But that is all really for a different topic ;)