Changemonth I would like to see (in General)


QBRanger July 9 2011 1:53 PM EDT

1) Evasion now is not dex based but gives 100% effect for level.

2) New spell:

Life Leech:

Works only in melee. HoC makes it work in last missile round.
Damage is equal to that of MM.
Works on the first minion, ignores AoI as other DDs.
This spell IGNORES PL like the MoD.
This spell gives HP back to the caster up at a ratio of 20%. Like the MH. Of course if the target has lower hp than the damage, only hp left can be leeched at 20%, like the MH, VA or Bth.

3) New weapon:

Stone Axe

2H base damage 76
Upgrade like the MH or other big 5 weapons
Effect of giving stone skin to user and user only. Does not stack with the spell SS.

4) Get rid of the exbow :) Or perhaps change it to:

Boomerang of Thunder

Base damage 5, targets highest strength minion.

Effect: Chance of stunning minion hit equal to that of damage/hp. If stunned target is stunned until melee round 1.

5) Combine GS and Haste into one spell that increases both dex and strength. Call it Battle Fury or something like that. Right now both GS and Haste suck. Not much debate on that one. Perhaps this will make them more useful.

6) New supporter item:

Cloak of the Ninja.

Adds to UC at same rate HG with almost same upgrade.

Face it folks, UC unless junctioned, is really low on damage. Needs a boost.



Demigod July 9 2011 2:09 PM EDT

Re: boomerang:

What if target is hit in melee? Stunned 1 round or no special effect during melee?

QBRanger July 9 2011 2:09 PM EDT

Likely stunned only that round in melee. Or the next if you are on defense. That would have to be looked at by the devs.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] July 9 2011 2:31 PM EDT

This would be awesome... :)

Catdog July 9 2011 2:41 PM EDT

i like most of the above i think stone axe is the only thing i'd omit. or change to on strike gives endurance of 25% of damage dealt because a wall holding that would be OP

QBRanger July 9 2011 2:45 PM EDT

I see the point of a base axe on a wall being OP..

So have it that the x on the weapon needs to be a certain part of the minions HP.

Like each 1k on the axe gives SS for 1M hp.

Include the HP give from AS to that equation.

So an 8M level wall needs a x8000 axe to get full stone skin.

Or it can be tweaked accordingly.

Catdog July 9 2011 2:49 PM EDT

have it on the + because low level chars would abuse it for PR less damage absorption

AdminNightStrike July 9 2011 3:57 PM EDT

Now the boomerang idea is definitely a cool new idea. And, it gives a UC character something to do! At least, it seems to fit in with the idea of a monk...

Gunny Pew Pew [Red Permanent Assurance] July 9 2011 6:54 PM EDT

Javelins anyone?

Zenai July 9 2011 10:03 PM EDT

Númenórean Bora - Boomerang

Bora is an alternate name for Boomerang family of weapons.

Numenorean is the name of the greatest civilization of man to exist on Arda. So I figured this would fit ;-)


Just my thoughts.....

MissingNo July 9 2011 10:14 PM EDT

Blood Leech is an awesome idea.

Demigod July 9 2011 10:26 PM EDT

How difficult would it be to test-run some of these ideas in a tourney? Being able to run them through a trial by fire might ease the resistance to change -- and thereby speed along the process. Plus, new items/skills/spell that are tourney-centric should boost the participation rate.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 9 2011 10:28 PM EDT

About as hard as it is to make them in the first place.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 9 2011 10:48 PM EDT

1.) Yes, I agree.. this was I can finally train a skill on my tank and have it actually useful to me (ie: grant me enc that dex does not)

2.) Absolutely love the spell, give me a familiar of the same type that is a supporter only item and I'd buy it in a heartbeat. That's the one thing I ask.

3.) I like it, but I agree with sienna that it needs to be tied to the + or else its an easy way to abuse free DR without adding PR.

4.) I actually like the idea (believe it or not), except I think that the stunning % should either be bumped up a little to make it more viable if using that formula. Anyone who's got loads of HP/AS will be virtually impossible to stun otherwise. I just did some math and even with some of the top damaging items we're talking about maybe a 5-10% chance at stunning per hit vs the majority of teams at the top. I personally think it should be between 25%-50% chance to stun per round (making multiple hits not affect the chance to stun is important in my book.

I'd actually like to hear more opinions on this item and how other people thing the stun chance should be handled. This is one of those items that would really need to be thought out and balanced to make it an actual successor to the exbow while still being viable but not the 1-2 hit wonder the larger exbows tend to be towards the top (assuming they are even hitting that is).

5.) I agree with this to some extent, but I'd say if you are going to combine them both then make then cast at 30-40% trained level to even things out a bit. Otherwise that can literally become the strongest EO in the game based on the kinds of strats I could see getting amazing use out of that. Back it by an RoS without a drop in its effectiveness and you just killed the ToA on all counts but the added PTH.

So again this is another thing that needs a careful look at and I'm interested in what other players thing as well.

6.) I like it, and I dont see any issues with it at all. UC could definitely use something to give it a boost.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] July 9 2011 11:30 PM EDT

4) sounds like it'd be even more random then the current exbow.. Defininetly won't help consistently enough to rely on.. And why change the base damage to 5? Heh this just doesn't make sense to me..

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 10 2011 1:02 AM EDT

1) Evasion now is not dex based but gives 100% effect for level.

Why?

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:04 AM EDT

Evasion for mages and enchanters is quite underpowered, IMO, at the higher and mid levels. If people want to use evasion, they of course will get hit with dex CTH. But give them the ability to try to negate the PTH like all other minions.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 10 2011 1:08 AM EDT

Evasion for mages is a great investment. They don't have a skill to train anyway other than evasion, and for even a very cheap investment, it has a great return. Give tanks an extra skill slot that allows them to train something that reduces 25% of mages damage for a cheap investment and you have a deal.

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:15 AM EDT

Evasion for mages is a great investment. They don't have a skill to train anyway other than evasion, and for even a very cheap investment, it has a great return. Give tanks an extra skill slot that allows them to train something that reduces 25% of mages damage for a cheap investment and you have a deal.

IDK that it is as great an investment as you think.

(50 ) 151,471 (100) 846,713

2 levels to note.

Level 50 is -50 PTH. Not that bad an investment. However, they then cannot use AP. Making their armor less than using AP with other more valuable AC armors.

-50 PTH is not reducing damage by 25%. It is perhaps 12.5% based upon most tanks now getting 4 hits a round.
-100 PTH is quite a lot of xp. That xp is taking away from HP and DD level. While +100 DBs are only 14M NW, easily achievable now, to spend valuable xp is well valuable xp.

And tanks have something which can lower magic damage by 25% fairly easy, the MgS. or even AMF. EC is crap to lower tank damage by 25%, esp vs ToA tanks.

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:23 AM EDT

sounds like it'd be even more random then the current exbow.. Defininetly won't help consistently enough to rely on.. And why change the base damage to 5? Heh this just doesn't make sense to me..

The exbow is not random? It is the most random thing in CB. Hit you win, miss you lose.

At least this Boomerang gives minions a chance in melee. And it can effect all minions.

I raised the damage to 5 to make it on par with the other missile special ability weapons.

SoD-multiple minions effected
MsB-targets mages. But due to the prevalence of TSA/HP/PL minions, this bow is slightly better than crap. But way underpowered for what it needs to really do.
BoT-chance for stunning in missile rounds only.

I agree with this to some extent, but I'd say if you are going to combine them both then make then cast at 30-40% trained level to even things out a bit.

I think at 68% that is not useful given the ability for DM to nuke the entire spell.

Perhaps 50% for each would be suitable, however, even with this boost, I think it would not be used very often.

Back it by an RoS without a drop in its effectiveness and you just killed the ToA on all counts but the added PTH.

I do not think so. High level DMs can overcome a lot of the RoS's. Right now a 12M RoS can protect 4.8M spell levels. There are quite a few 8+level DMs out there. I am sure at the lower levels of play, there are plenty of similar ratios

In addition, if the RoS user wants to spend a ED spell slot on this new spell, rather than AS or GA, great. Less AS/GA/RoS characters out there, the better.

I personally think it should be between 25%-50% chance to stun per round (making multiple hits not affect the chance to stun is important in my book.

That would be far far too powerful. If a tank hits a minion 3 times, with a 25% chance to stun in each hit, that is 58% chance to be stunned. Raise that to 50% and for 3 hits you have a 87.5 chance of stun. Way too much considering any minion can be effected.

It has a decent damage, the stun should not something that is not overpowering.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 10 2011 1:24 AM EDT

And tanks have something which can lower magic damage by 25% fairly easy, the MgS.

Ranger you're such a turn coat, you know armor has no place in this discussion. XP != Money. Also, tanks need BL or Archery, nuff said.

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:29 AM EDT

Also, tanks need BL or Archery, nuff said.

I seem to be just fine without either of those skills. In fact, I am not using the uber all-powerful ELB. I guess I should also now have complete exbow immunity since I am not using the all-destructive weapon.

Perhaps, in the future, when I get more ENC, I may learn BL. However ENC is a tough thing for a 4 minion character relying on AS for HP. And that is not a complaint, just a fact I have noticed.

But you are correct in that xp is not equal to money. It was a poor analogy on my part.

However, since you brought up BL, BL can increase damage by 75% with a super bonus the first hit.

Mages have no skill that increases their damage. So maybe we should have a mage skill equal to that of BL?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 10 2011 1:39 AM EDT

Ranger, you are the most bias player, I have defended you in the past, b/c you happened to be right, however, you have obviously completely changed your tune. Is this b/c the balance is drastically different? Is it b/c your beliefs changed? No, it's b/c this debate now suits you differently. I am deeply saddened. I can no longer have this discussion with you, as no matter what I say, you will see it in a different light, a light that makes your char much stronger.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 10 2011 1:40 AM EDT

That would be far far too powerful. If a tank hits a minion 3 times, with a 25% chance to stun in each hit, that is 58% chance to be stunned. Raise that to 50% and for 3 hits you have a 87.5 chance of stun. Way too much considering any minion can be effected.

But that's over 6 rounds of ranged, and I said the chance to stun was per round not per hit, meaning that those 3 hits totaling up to a 58% chance is in first 3 rounds to help cancel out the last few. Basically instead of completely nuking out the str all together, it helps stun and delay ranged long enough to help get to melee. Yet you still have your str intact, and then melee starts for everyone and the tank isn't nuked.

Keep the base damage at 4 if you think it would be too strong, but all it would do would help delay the fight and bring it into melee.

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:49 AM EDT

Ranger, you are the most bias player, I have defended you in the past, b/c you happened to be right, however, you have obviously completely changed your tune. Is this b/c the balance is drastically different? Is it b/c your beliefs changed? No, it's b/c this debate now suits you differently. I am deeply saddened. I can no longer have this discussion with you, as no matter what I say, you will see it in a different light, a light that makes your char much stronger.

Exquise me?

Making evasion stronger will certainly not help my character. In fact, it will be worse for my character. The evasion I have on my tank is level 4 and I do not expect it ever to go higher, but even then, my tank has enough dex to not worry about the dex penalty.

I have seen, since coming back, evasion is not that good for the xp. IMO by far.

But for you to say I am typing this to boost my character is one of the poorest things I have seen in the forums.

But please, pretty please with a cherry on top, explain how boosting evasion in the absence of matching dex makes my character stronger. Much less much stronger.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 10 2011 1:52 AM EDT

^ And as far as stunning mages are concerned lets say that this thing wont stun anything if its not wearing a weapon

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:52 AM EDT

But that's over 6 rounds of ranged, and I said the chance to stun was per round not per hit, meaning that those 3 hits totaling up to a 58% chance is in first 3 rounds to help cancel out the last few. Basically instead of completely nuking out the str all together, it helps stun and delay ranged long enough to help get to melee. Yet you still have your str intact, and then melee starts for everyone and the tank isn't nuked.

I would think the stun per hit would be more logical than stun per round no matter how many hits you receive. Having a chance in melee, but being stunned in missile makes a lot more sense, to me the original poster, than losing all your strength for the entire duration of the fight. Again, something no other item in all of CB does.

Keep the base damage at 4 if you think it would be too strong, but all it would do would help delay the fight and bring it into melee.

Is/Was that the idea of the exbow? To give melee based characters a chance?

But this item gives missile based characters a chance in melee, unlike the present binary system we currently have.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 10 2011 1:55 AM EDT

You could lower DX and put it into evasion, dodge all exbow hits, and beat Xeno 100% the time. And I doubt the lower DX would lose you anyone on your list, since it wouldn't be significantly lower. Also, these ideas, the balance ones anyway, do not go in any way towards balancing the game. Also, number 4 was "remove the exbow" and your boomerang idea is fairly awful, for reasons you should be able to see. You're either:
1. Not thinking through your ideas at all, or more likely
2. Bias

I calls them as I see them.

QBRanger July 10 2011 2:07 AM EDT

You could lower DX and put it into evasion, dodge all exbow hits, and beat Xeno 100% the time. And I doubt the lower DX would lose you anyone on your list, since it wouldn't be significantly lower. Also, these ideas, the balance ones anyway, do not go in any way towards balancing the game. Also, number 4 was "remove the exbow" and your boomerang idea is fairly awful, for reasons you should be able to see. You're either:
1. Not thinking through your ideas at all, or more likely
2. Bias

Wow, just wow.

If you think I would lower my dex to 0 base and put all my xp into evasion to beat Xeno, you are a better tactician than myself. Given that my 205 DBs work better than the 1.6M levels of evasion I get. Even boosted with the AoF and EBs. That would get me to (161) 2,771,724. With the evasion multiplier that would be about (220) 6,038,501 in the first round of missile. The subsequent rounds it would be less than the 215 my named DBs give. I have already done the math on evasion and even without the dex penalty is not that great at the high levels.

But... TA DA! You forget that I would have matching dex from the 4M levels the ToA gives me. SO your pontifications about how I am trying to get a boost is just poppycock, incorrect, and well of the mark.

You, however, are 100% correct on my idea number 4. I am trying to get rid of the exbow's binary nature of 100% total battle strength loss and replace it with something else. That would give a bit higher damage and still give a chance to nerf the tank until melee.

If you do not like my boomerang idea, then you must think NS is also biased as he seemed to enjoy it. But again is it an idea, something of which I see you have not proposed any lately to improve the game.

While you may not believe I care about balance and am only out for myself, these are just ideas. Nothing has been approved by the developers.

But before you accuse me of trying to boost my character, esp with the evasion buff, please get your facts correct. This would not chance anything on my tank as I have enough dex from the ToA to start, with or without evasion.

It would be a buff to no dex evasion minions. Which should be obvious to anyone but you, that it would be a detriment to my character in the long run.

QBRanger July 10 2011 2:13 AM EDT

Also,

Changing from the all uber incredibly god-like ELB to the pedestrian SoD lets me boost my dexterity over 1.2M levels. And now, with my DBs I already beat Xeno with his exbow. At least until he learns or trains more dexterity.

Evasion on Ichi, as explained in the previous post, would not help vs Xeno's character or in fact, other exbow users, in the least.

For me to learn enough evasion to equal, or beat that of my DBs, I would have to lower my str and dex to almost 0 base, and my ENC load would then be far too little for my items.

Again, boosting non-dex evasion would not help but in fact hurts my character.

So I guess hurting my character is one form of bias, in opposite world maybe :)

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 10 2011 2:26 AM EDT

^ Actually I noticed that you need your DBs on Jigsaw and the EBs on Ichi to beat MM 100%. When you were doing that I was able to take advantage of the situation. If you have higher evasion I actually wouldn't be able to hit you nearly as easily, even 100 evasion would help significantly against me, 168 and you've already nuked my pth. Whatever dex you're left with from the toa should be enough to keep everyone you fight.

Not saying that I have anything to do with this specifically, I'm just saying that's the exact thing I can say based on your fight logs and fighting you.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 10 2011 2:27 AM EDT

I forgot to add the only problem with that is it brings you over enc, which obviously you don't.

QBRanger July 10 2011 2:36 AM EDT

Actually I noticed that you need your DBs on Jigsaw and the EBs on Ichi to beat MM 100%. When you were doing that I was able to take advantage of the situation. If you have higher evasion I actually wouldn't be able to hit you nearly as easily, even 100 evasion would help significantly against me, 168 and you've already nuked my pth. Whatever dex you're left with from the toa should be enough to keep everyone you fight.

Not really.

I have been testing things for different situations. I plan on keeping those DBs on Ichi. DBs on Jigsaw help me vs MM for other variables of which I will not type of as I do not want MM to know exactly how I can beat him. Strategery!!

I forgot to add the only problem with that is it brings you over enc, which obviously you don't.

Yes, ENC was a problem. But given that the SoD needs no skill, ENC is not a problem now. In fact I have plenty to spare, almost being able to use my MoD if needed.

But in the end of all discussion, my post 1) on evasion was not to boost my character at all. While testing things, I saw evasion on enchanters and mages, given they have no dex anyway to prevent CTH, was underpowered. At least according to how I see the game.

To say I am posting to boost my character is very spiteful and contrary to how I have posted in the past on balance issues. I have posted things to both help and hurt my characters almost equally.

Except for the exbow, of which I feel is just a very poorly designed item and is just bad for a game like CB with its linear effect.

For example, I was on the AS should give ENC years before I have used AS. I have never used AS in the past for the main source of my HP. I have always been well within my ENC limited until this character. To imply I am biased on my proposals is just wrong. Again, except for the exbow.

For every proposal that someone states will help me, I can give 1-2 examples of proposal that would hurt me.

Think I can use the new proposed supporter item? Hell no. The new spell? It may help or hurt. Don't know exactly until it get enacted.

QBRanger July 10 2011 2:41 AM EDT

Ichi: With DBs equipped
Net Worth: $447,942,736
Encumbered at: 479,709,867

ENC on Ichi is not a problem anymore given I do not have to use archery just to use my weapon at 100% effectiveness.

So this evasion boost would help Ranger is just wrong thinking. I have the dex to match any evasion I would learn from the ToA and I have enough ENC to use my DBs which obvious are better.

So Titan, how is my proposal number 1 biased towards boosting my character?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 10 2011 4:28 AM EDT

For me to learn enough evasion to equal, or beat that of my DBs, I would have to lower my str and dex to almost 0 base, and my ENC load would then be far too little for my items.

Well that's all I have to say about that.


And I just want to ask one thing, and its to kind of help clear things up for me and some cb history as well. Are you suggesting that evasion goes back to what it was pre-nerf?

I know evasion was changed at least twice by Jon, so how is this version of evasion not unlike the old one. I'd like that clarification please.

King July 10 2011 6:21 AM EDT

#1, #3 and #5 all used together would be pretty broken with a RoS. 1 minion would just need to train evasion, possibly even some token hp but #5 being boosted by a RoS would be similar to having a ToA on all your minions, minus the PtH boost, making that giant evasion wall into an evasion tank. The use of #5 RoS'ed would now leave the evasion wall tank capable of equipping heavy AC, not suffering from any of the armors penalties to it's dex and having un-dispellable steel skin.

#2 is giving the effect of a supporter item to a spell - not good for the sale of supporter items.

#6 UC boost, yay.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 10 2011 6:22 AM EDT

1) any improvement on evasion at the moment would be important, be it 80% or 100%, as long as there is one.

2) certainly provides options to when it comes to dealing with a major opponent for a number of strategies, i quite like it.

3) its solid (well da, its stone :P ).
i can't really contribute any further criticisms than what has already been mentioned in this thread regarding usage by walls.

4) Would have thought stunning for a specific number of rounds would be of more assistance than till melee first round.

I would have just had it daze the opponent by a factor based on the damage/hp relationship, reducing DD spell effectiveness, str and dex for the next round or two, in a stacked relationship. So reduce them by x% round 1 for rounds 2 and 3. in round 2, it reduces the effectiveness in rounds 3 and 4, in a stacked relationship.
Just my thoughts.

5) Absolutely. It would make the spells much more beneficial in every circumstance they are already utilised. a minor reduction in spell efficiency may be required however.

6) UC needs fixing just as much as it needs boosting. This means little to me atm.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 10 2011 8:18 AM EDT

#1 and 2 I agree with just fine. #6 I like, actually it should probably have a lower upgrade curve than HG. But, it won't make UC really any more used than it is now. You need to actually fix the fundamental problem of UC before it will get really used.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 10 2011 8:18 AM EDT

The rest I'll comment on later.

Quyen July 10 2011 9:29 AM EDT

i agree with all of them except #4 and #5,
#4: i find it must be add, cause the Exbow MIGHT be Op, but it has enough counters. its low damage cant compete with a good Magic attack, it wont remove AC, so a Wall is also a counter to it.

#5:yes, GS and Haste are useless, but if your combining them, make them either weaker and/or make it a EO, cause when its powered by a RoS, it will make 3 strong tanks, put some high AC on it and some nice weapons and its close to undefeatable :|

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] July 10 2011 9:55 AM EDT

and again only things that his char will make better, i say a weapon for the mage and leave the exbow as it is (maby change the drainage a wee bit little bit so he might stop crying about it)

only good thing is that about uc

QBRanger July 10 2011 10:56 AM EDT

#4: i find it must be add, cause the Exbow MIGHT be Op, but it has enough counters. its low damage cant compete with a good Magic attack, it wont remove AC, so a Wall is also a counter to it.

Well a wall could be a counter if the exbow did not target tanks. ToA tanks have little AC due to the inate nature of the tattoo. And while there are counters to the exbow, the binary nature is something that just does not jive with CB. The precedent was the old FoD spells binary nature.

#5:yes, GS and Haste are useless, but if your combining them, make them either weaker and/or make it a EO, cause when its powered by a RoS, it will make 3 strong tanks, put some high AC on it and some nice weapons and its close to undefeatable :|

I have heard this a couple time. While it may be correct, if a RoS character wants to use this to make a tank, great. There are a few DMs high enough at each level to break through RoS's.

The RoS does its best with its DM/GA axis of damage. If a RoS user wishes to spend money on tank equipment and hope they do not run into high DM's, let them.

The % can easily be titrated from between 30-50% spell level and can be tested. But right now, both GS and Haste are basically just crap. Nobody uses them. Perhaps combining them is powerful for RoS characters, however, I would not think it is over-powerful. Just another option for those wanting to try a different tank route.

Running 3 tanks is very hard, especially with NW/PR.

Right now, where I fight, there are at least 5 DM's over 6M level, which break through all the RoS out there.

But it is something certainly to consider if a chance like this is enacted.

Thanks for the thoughts on the RoS/new spell combo. Certainly constructive critique is great.

PS: And for all those who posted earlier, this spell would not provide a boost to my character that I can see in the future. But if you wish to say it will for some nebulous reason, I guess you are free to post inaccuracies.

QBRanger July 10 2011 10:57 AM EDT

i say a weapon for the mage

I think Jon has made his view on this perfectly clear.

Mages get "free" damage, while tanks need NW for damage.

FORS has Jon's thoughts on this. And I agree.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] July 10 2011 11:57 AM EDT

I personally think the strength of an RoS character lies in the AS/GA combo, since you indirectly increase your damage by increasing survivability. I don't think combining haste/gs would make RoS teams that much better. We would only hate DM that much more, and do some good work against teams that don't have DM (much like it is now).

I like the exbow suggestion, since both items would serve the exact same purpose (surviving ranged combat), but the new item allows the tank to fight back in melee.

Stone Axe would be too powerful on low HP walls. On a minion like Gordan Freeman for example, I only plan on having 2 mil HP, a DM immune SS on him would be devastating for ToA archers and RoBF teams. And there is only 365 AC on there...imagine a setup like that with 400+ AC :D

The new spell is nice, but would be impossible to handle if put on a heavy magewall. I'd take a 20% DD penalty to be pretty much unkillable :)

QBRanger July 10 2011 12:04 PM EDT

I personally think the strength of an RoS character lies in the AS/GA combo, since you indirectly increase your damage by increasing survivability. I don't think combining haste/gs would make RoS teams that much better. We would only hate DM that much more, and do some good work against teams that don't have DM (much like it is now).

At least someone else does agree with how I see it, I do not feel as foolish now :)

I like the exbow suggestion, since both items would serve the exact same purpose (surviving ranged combat), but the new item allows the tank to fight back in melee.

I thought the exbow was supposed to let melee tanks live to melee. Like HG. However, if they are designed to completely neuter a tank the whole battle, I think that needs to be readdressed.

Stone Axe would be too powerful on low HP walls. On a minion like Gordan Freeman for example, I only plan on having 2 mil HP, a DM immune SS on him would be devastating for ToA archers and RoBF teams. And there is only 365 AC on there...imagine a setup like that with 400+ AC :D

The problem would be ENC. Getting 400AC would be a lot of NW. 471 AC with named items is 270M NW, For that 9M HP would be needed.

However, if this item is too powerful, it could be just not played in the game. I may not have thought it out, however with ENC, I thought AC could not be that higher lower down.

The new spell is nice, but would be impossible to handle if put on a heavy magewall. I'd take a 20% DD penalty to be pretty much unkillable :)

Well then you would have to worry about SG. The heavy magewall would have the same problems they currently have.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] July 10 2011 1:05 PM EDT

The problem would be ENC. Getting 400AC would be a lot of NW. 471 AC with named items is 270M NW, For that 9M HP would be needed.

As a weapon, it would compliment a low trained hp/high str set up very well. The exbow in its current form couldn't dent the str, and if some one had an EC that big, would get wrecked by 3 other sources of damage (in my teams example). I like the idea of something giving SS, but it just benefits walls way too much to have it on a weapon. IMO of course.

Zenai July 10 2011 1:34 PM EDT

Everyone has already echoed what I had conversation about on the subject matter in this thread when it first came out so I will not repeat it.

To further horseguy I will say this, right now my biggest problem is lack of AC. I have had quite as few back and forths on the setup of my char and have noted that all I need to negate most ExBows is 124 AC. Go ahead gimme that Axe and I'll wreck the ranks even more than I am now even at half str on my setup before I had to DE my items.

QBRanger July 10 2011 1:51 PM EDT

To further horseguy I will say this, right now my biggest problem is lack of AC. I have had quite as few back and forths on the setup of my char and have noted that all I need to negate most ExBows is 124 AC. Go ahead gimme that Axe and I'll wreck the ranks even more than I am now even at half str on my setup before I had to DE my items.

AC of FoD's minion: 30

SS would give like 8 more AC. Barely enough to do anything.

And with the axe, you would lose your elb in melee. In addition, you would have to upgrade the axe to some level to match your HP. Which is another CB2 sink.

I for one, would love to see you use that axe for a bonus of 8 AC.

Quyen July 10 2011 1:54 PM EDT

haha xD 8 Ac ftw? :3

Zenai July 10 2011 1:58 PM EDT

Ranger if you think I would not Adapt to maximize the effects of that Axe on my Setup think again. This was my point.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 10 2011 1:59 PM EDT

You need to actually fix the fundamental problem of UC before it will get really used.

+1

QBRanger July 10 2011 2:07 PM EDT

Of course you can Z, but having to make and upgrade a melee weapon does decrease your effectiveness in melee.

That is for the 1 or 2 characters that get you there :)

And UC certainly needs a better fix.

Zenai July 10 2011 2:16 PM EDT

UC I have agreed with a fix for a long time

And yeah I know Ranger I was just saying I would do it readily. I already have my ELB right where I want it for now and a Melee Weapon would just be good to have as a backup anyway especially one that would benefit me in my defense.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] July 10 2011 2:27 PM EDT

On a tangent...

If the stun effect would get implemented, slap a 10% chance to stun on attack for 1 round for the combat gi as well. That way there would be an incentive to run a UC character over a jig. Throw in Cloak of the Ninja as well and UC might be more then a no bonus tourney novelty.

QBRanger July 10 2011 2:36 PM EDT

Maybe 10% if a hit on that minion no matter how many hits. Or if a certain level in UC is present like 100.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 10 2011 7:09 PM EDT

Right now, where I fight, there are at least 5 DM's over 6M level, which break through all the RoS out there.

6m DM does not break through all the RoS teams out there. I have 10m dm and I don't even break through all the RoS teams out there, 6m dm barely dents some of those teams. I remember because back when I had that little DM I got whooped by all of them.

QBRanger July 10 2011 7:13 PM EDT

By break through I mean overcome the RoS resistance and start to lower the ED spells.

If a RoS character relies on this new spell, they will likely have to be near the ENC cap. Any lowering of their str by DM or EC would hurt them significantly.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 10 2011 9:24 PM EDT

#5 I think this would work if it were at 50% effect just like EC.

#6 to comment a little more on this one. The real fix UC needs is to have a set amount of levels increase the X modifier for UC. Really a balanced number for this amount would be 705 levels of UC adds 1 to the X modifier. This would be taking an equivalent of 1 cbd per xp and putting it into the X mod. To balance out UC it should have the 20% increase to pth removed so the UC effect would end up being the pth value. Only then would it be a good idea to add in a new item cloak for UC to help regular UC minions compete with the JKF.

#3 Really the only way you could have this item is if it only grants SS by upgrading it. The only way I can see that working is if it is based on the X value of the weapon. This is because hp will continue to increase but the pth value is based on a curve so either it will grant full SS at a certain pth always, or it will slowly become worse and worse of an item.

King July 11 2011 3:26 AM EDT

If a RoS character relies on this new spell, they will likely have to be near the ENC cap. Any lowering of their str by DM or EC would hurt them significantly.

Just to give you a taste of the RoS's DM resistance... there are currently only 3 people who can dent my DM resistance considerably and only 1 that can completely break me down, all of them, with the exception of 1, have had to invest heavily just to to take out 1-2M of my EDs and my tat is nowhere near my MTL.

The new spell would basically be giving over 120% effect per exp, with RoS boost and a corn you are looking at a 4 minion team with more str and dex than that of a 2 minion team on each minion.

Even if it was lowered to 50/50 this would still be the highest level to effect ED in the game and could easily abused by USD spending teams.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 11 2011 3:46 AM EDT

^ King pretty much pointed out my exact issues with the spell. Which is why I suggested a much much lower spell effect. Even then it could still be an extremely effective spell if someone plans out the team well enough.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] July 11 2011 6:47 AM EDT

Theorycraft a team that showcases this problem, since anything I can think of you either sacrifice too much HP/defense to get lots of str/dex, or vice versa.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 11 2011 9:39 AM EDT

^Since were talking theory here, lets just say something similar to kings team sans his MM and SS's being replaced by this spell (maybe keep one SS). Load up each minion with as much gear as you could but keep them enough under enc that the few minions who could possibly DM you don't affect you much, even if they do DM you and you go under enc forget about it because the AS/GA will likely kill them off anyway.

Just imagine if kings team had 5 real damage sources. GA + 4 archers/tanks.

As King said, there are only a handful of people who dent his DM resistance that high up, and he's not even close to his mtl. This could feasibly be done with with a 12m tat rather easily, though obviously the higher the tat the better.

Expensive, yes absolutely.. impossible, not at all.

King July 11 2011 10:13 AM EDT

Theorycraft a team that showcases this problem, since anything I can think of you either sacrifice too much HP/defense to get lots of str/dex, or vice versa.

AS, AS, "Battle Fury", DM or GA.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 11 2011 10:47 AM EDT

The changemonth I would we all would like to see: A new anything.

QBRanger July 11 2011 11:24 AM EDT

AS, AS, "Battle Fury", DM or GA.

Well whether you go DM or GA matters quite a lot.

Do not go DM and VA with a MH works great. So does AS character with a RBF.

Do not go GA and the main point of a RoS is gone.

How many levels do you have per minion? About 8M base? So that, with magic stuff on that minion would be what 5M dex and strength?

Vs other tanks, you will not do very well. You will lose a corn if you decide to go with the HoC. So less levels there. Going with tank armors lowers other levels of magic.

I think this would be worse than going with a mage and the typical RoS setup.

However, it would be a fun thing to have as an option.

King July 11 2011 11:50 AM EDT

How many levels do you have per minion? About 8M base? So that, with magic stuff on that minion would be what 5M dex and strength?

I have a little over 10.5M base levels per minion, the corn doesn't really matter on the RoS minion(over 19M AS after RoS). So you're looking at closer to 10M str and dex before AoFs are even brought into the equation(Previously omitted to avoid the 'someone might try using EC excuse).

DM vs GA isn't overly important, without an exbow fix you have 4 minions capable of wielding ex bows against those fabled VA tanks. Against mages you don't need archery for an MsK to do it's job so once again DM vs GA doesn't matter, you're killing those mages before they can really hurt you. You could even have both, GA actually does have a point where training more is pointless and it's roughly 6M~.

Armor proficiency makes the penalties of a full heavy armor set capable of being balanced with a single corn. Not every minion needs wall armor, if you're using GA it's actually counter intuitive to have heavy AC everywhere you /want/ to take damage.

On the matter of encumbrance - 106M on my GA minion, the lowest enc minion on my whole team, enough to wield a decently sized weapon before the str buff.(160M on the RoS minion)

Show me a successful RoBF team that uses AS and I'll take it into consideration but they tend to be hard hp, pl walls and AMF.

I am also aware I am using stats from the very end game here but looking at 'big' numbers is probably the best way to tell if something is broken.

QBRanger July 11 2011 12:06 PM EDT

If you want to use the RoS on the battle fury minion Please do!!!

I would beaat you the.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 11 2011 12:16 PM EDT

Still would lose to a high AC tank, but no one uses those.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] July 11 2011 12:23 PM EDT

Still would lose to a high AC tank, but no one uses those.

I need another year XD

I don't think that set up would do great damage, since you would get about ~300 mil ENC on each minion (provided no DM). Without worrying about armor, how much damage will that really put out?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 11 2011 12:26 PM EDT

Decent, due to the way tanks scale, if you could afford the 250M ENC, and had a decent amount of ST, let's say 5M, it'd be like a 20M tank with a 1B NW weapon, so pretty baller. Except not quite, b/c it would hit as often due to lower dex and not has high pth, so it lose out on the guaranteed hits that it would have if it were all concentrated.

Demigod July 11 2011 12:30 PM EDT

Plus, that's the most expensive route possible.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 11 2011 12:36 PM EDT

I think when you combine them the effect has to be about 50%. If you combine them and drop the effect to 34% which would keep it the same as the current effect is, I don't think you would see any additional use out of this spell. You would be better off just keeping them separate and increasing the effect of each one some.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 11 2011 12:37 PM EDT

Oh, and king you can argue for that same point right now, but I don't really see anyone actually doing it. I would like to though.

QBRanger July 11 2011 12:58 PM EDT

I remember long ago, when the RoS first came out, everyone was chatting up the RoS 4 tank team using both GS and Haste.

And yet nobody did it successfully.

There is one benefit of having both GS and Haste, even at a reduced effect, on 1 spell. You free up a very valuable ED slot to use on another spell like SS.

But I have yet to see someone use the RoS in such a fashion.

However, I would love to see someone try.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 11 2011 3:45 PM EDT

^ No one's been able to do it successfully cause haste and gs take up two spell slots, you put them in one spell and you just made that problem a non-issue, freeing up space for VA/SS/Another AS or an entire minion to focus on DM.

2 High + Exbows (Even one Ex and one Ax could work, ax to help you hit, ex to prevent damage), 1 MsK, and a SoD, plus a different melee weapon on each if even needed (definitely if going the VA route).

I don't think anyone is at all arguing this theoretical team would be expensive as hell to run, but that doesn't mean it would be impossible.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] July 11 2011 3:48 PM EDT

However, I would love to see someone try.

I'll give it a go in the next tourney.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 11 2011 3:48 PM EDT

Zenai would love this strategy. What's better than 1 FGoD, 4 FGoDs on one team!!!

QBRanger July 11 2011 3:59 PM EDT

I would think there is a limit to Z's credit card.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] July 11 2011 5:39 PM EDT

2 High + Exbows (Even one Ex and one Ax could work, ax to help you hit, ex to prevent damage), 1 MsK, and a SoD, plus a different melee weapon on each if even needed (definitely if going the VA route).

At the top of the game you are looking at 350 mil ENC. That's a lot of weapons to squeeze under that cap, without even worrying about armor and defensive gear.

In the end I think there would just be 4 mediocre damage dealing minions that get shredded when its melee time.

Zenai July 11 2011 5:59 PM EDT

I thought about and for a short time ran this Strategy when I was playing around with Possessed(I settled for a much more manageable strat). It is feasible but way too expensive even on the low end. The kicker is unless you have one Minion(with good MPR) that stands out it's as Titan says just waiting to get shredded in melee.

More importantly Ranger is right I'll spend cash for my entertainment pleasure but no way I'm taking out a loan from the bank.........lol

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 11 2011 6:00 PM EDT

Str boosting gear goes a long way, mix that in with some Corns and AoFs and you can raise that enc cap significantly.

My tank has roughly 400m enc, and it does more then enough damage vs most teams, and I have a fair amount of AC on top of it. Think 4 tanks roughly my size with way more dex and AS/GA on top of it. I think it would be a little more effective than anyone seems to think it would be, not easy to pull off but with the right gear it could be a power house.

This is all pretty much theory until its actually tested to see if it can be abused easily. I think with the right setup it could be, but it would indeed be very expensive.

Zenai July 11 2011 6:13 PM EDT

Around your size would indeed be much more effective, Possessed was around 2 Mil MPR when I tried it.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 11 2011 6:14 PM EDT

Str/dex boosting gear doesn't affect STR/dex granted. Also, skills like Archery and BL are based on the cumulative str so you need them much higher than base to be able to be used.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 11 2011 6:38 PM EDT

Hmm I thought str boosting gear did boost GS, never used the spell outside of tourneys and never used it without having natural stats trained so I haven't had much experience using it with the proper gear. So sorry for that mistake.

Either way you can still 350m enc can still go a long way. Also skills aren't 100% necessary and I don't know why people seem to think that bloodlust absolutely must be trained. I can tell you that it does not, sure you can absolutely benefit from the extra damage, but sometimes its nothing but overkill.

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