The ELB v. the Exbow - FoD v. Construct (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2011 3:14 PM EDT

Construct (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (F) (+) (Chaotic Serenity) FuerGrissa ost Drauka 4 3:07 PM EDT

Ahh the beautiful balance of insanity, I knew I wouldn't have him on my fightlist for long.

AdminTitan September 1 2011 3:16 PM EDT

Elbow, good unit.

Building really big bows is a good skill to have.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2011 3:26 PM EDT

Quyen September 1 2011 3:27 PM EDT

and the first round is for FGoD :)

Duke September 1 2011 4:30 PM EDT

Its all work like its should single hit wonder!

QBRanger September 1 2011 4:59 PM EDT

Use a ToA and he will never beat you.

Zenai September 1 2011 6:32 PM EDT

It's a Farce.......he farms me everyday.


Construct (F) (+)

Wins: 53
Loses: 1
Draws: 0
Stalemates: 0
Percentage Wins 98.15
Rounds: 8.9

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2011 6:32 PM EDT

because 299 PTh isn't enough? come on...

This is only a fight at all because the PTh penalties are insane.

Zenai September 1 2011 6:37 PM EDT

Ummm nov you have not actually lost to me in ages, you took something off.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2011 6:50 PM EDT

Look at the fightlog Zen, it's right on the edge, today is just the first time it's crossed over. Your damage is high enough that a few double hits can take me out.

QBRanger September 1 2011 6:51 PM EDT

because 299 PTh isn't enough? come

No. Because the exbow is a stupid item.

And BTW I did not strait this thread.

Zenai September 1 2011 7:07 PM EDT

I thought you had much more than that nov.

Zenai September 1 2011 7:09 PM EDT

Ahhhh ok you went RoBF yeah got it, Ranger is right ToA and I am toast permanently against you.

King September 1 2011 7:43 PM EDT

If you used almost /any/ tat other than a RoBF, (barring a RoS which you have no use for) you'd probably still be winning.

Magic Familiar - With your giant tat would have about 5M hp, If it's an SF that would buy you 1-2 rounds of ranged and pump out an additional 1-2M damage with it's 18.9M level DD.(Since I doubt you'd ever put on a AoJ)
ToA - Extra pth and str damage.
ToE - .. possibly reduced damage(I have no clue what the actual % would be but.... much smaller tats apparently do 51% physical)
Hal - ...something maybe... 6M HP Wall?

Sickone September 1 2011 8:00 PM EDT

Exbow in its current form is a brainfart item and should be radically re-thought from the ground up.

Zenai September 1 2011 8:01 PM EDT

Couldn't have said it better myself sickone.

QBRanger September 1 2011 8:07 PM EDT

+1 to Sickone.

Kefeck September 1 2011 8:31 PM EDT

Unreal..

There is 1 Ex-bow setup in the upper ranks. Sounds pretty fricken OP to me.. shall I count the Elven long bows?

*Gasps* did you guys know there are some Dispel Magics out there that nuke my GA before the fight even begins? D:

I'm calling shenanigans, that better get nerfed or I'm going to rage!

AdminNightStrike September 1 2011 8:36 PM EDT

1? What about me?


:(

Kefeck September 1 2011 8:38 PM EDT

2! ;P

AdminTitan September 1 2011 8:50 PM EDT

I already said b/c of the binary nature of the exbow, it makes an amazing defensive weapon, but an okay offensive one.

QBRanger September 1 2011 9:52 PM EDT

There is 1 Ex-bow setup in the upper ranks. Sounds pretty fricken OP to me.. shall I count the Elven long bows?

There are at least 3.

Novice, Nightstrike and Xeno all use the exbow. Xeno is not as dependant, however with it on his tank, he takes out most tanks that I know of except those with +200 DBs and 10M+dex.

shall I count the Elven long bows?

Yes, let's do.

3, just like the number of exbow users.

Z, miteke, and Picasso all use the ELB.

4 if you count Yanki.

*Gasps* did you guys know there are some Dispel Magics out there that nuke my GA before the fight even begins? D:

That takes xp equal to MPR. And how many DMs are there that high? Vs those characters, does not decay work wonders?

miteke [Superheros] September 1 2011 11:26 PM EDT

Hey, I ALSO use and ExBow (sometimes) - best of BOTH worlds!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 1:47 AM EDT

I post what I think is clear indication that the exbow is barely capable of doing the exceedingly specific job it's been given and it turns into a bash thread... insane.

I want a show of hands right now of who thinks a single minion melee tank should be able to beat a single minion archer by investing in defensive items. If the exbow functioned any other way and it would be impossible without going ToE or something else equally crippling.

I've got 239 evasion and a significant (though less than half of Zen) amount of dex, and because of the penalties to hit being worse for the exbow I barely eek out a win.

The ELB is capable of almost 25 million damage in 4 rounds despite serious investment in defense, only the exbow stops it.

Quyen September 2 2011 3:23 AM EDT

25 million in 4 rounds... Ouch! if you miss the 5th round to it would be 29-30M damage :p

Zenai September 2 2011 6:23 AM EDT

Yes nov when I use a ToA those Stats tend to jump, same happens with you too remember? You are nigh untouchable with a ToA and I have more Dex and Str overall. Aside from this it is not all ELB it is also my set up to bolster it, my BGs add 51% Damage during Ranged and my HoC adds an Extra Ranged round and my BoM adds 30% Str.....all ELB I think not. If I went any other Tat than ToA I would be even more vulnerable than you.

The only point I see being made here is that the ToA is a great Tat.

QBRanger September 2 2011 7:03 AM EDT

I post what I think is clear indication that the exbow is barely capable of doing the exceedingly specific job it's been given and it turns into a bash thread... insane.

Novice, please compare similar strats.

ToA vs ToA.

QBRanger September 2 2011 7:13 AM EDT

The ELB is capable of almost 25 million damage in 4 rounds despite serious investment in defense, only the exbow stops it.

Stop making false statement!!! The only thing you stated that was right was the damage he does vs you. Someone with low AC.

The exbow is not the only things that stops the ELB.

GA/AS works perfectly vs Z, as does the junctioned JKF, as does my strat using high + DB and a multiminion character.. As does Karn with a ToE.

Please stop the "exbow is needed as the foil vs the ELB" garbage. There are other ways, not as pathetic, to beat a ToA ELB user.

Ways that are not binary and do not with 1 hit end the battle.

QBRanger September 2 2011 7:45 AM EDT

Sorry for the triple post but this is an exbow thread I have not started.

What really is pathetic is that Z needs x40k on his elb and you only need x6.4k to completely nullify all his NW, xp and tattoo.

He has only +110 while you have +290 due to the ToA vs no ToA usage. If novice would use a ToA, then the PTH would be not as highly needed.

miteke [Superheros] September 2 2011 8:45 AM EDT

Notwithstanding your binary gripe, which is a real complaint that transcends balance and becomes a matter of personal view about how items should work, the Exbow has some real issues. I've tired to use it effectively and ran into some show major issues:

1) It is a huge investment in both NW and experience. You can't just strap the thing on any old minion and expect it to work. You have to have it on a tank. For me, with an archer, that means training a second tank which has major vulnerabilities.
2) It is usually ineffective (this is part of the binary nature you don't like). Most chars have defenses.
3) A large NW Exbow means a large boost to PR which is not necessarily worth the advantage. Sure you may get 1 or two new chars on your list, but you loose a couple of percent of gains from all of your list.

I tend to agree with your complaint about the binary nature of the Exbow, but I don;t think it unbalanced.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:46 AM EDT

You haven't answered my question Ranger... none of you have.

Do you think a single minion melee tank should be able to win against a single minion archer (without going ToE or anything silly).

The ToA would be only a temporary band-aid, the issue still stands that the exbow is the only thing keeping me in this fight.

AdminTitan September 2 2011 10:50 AM EDT

Do you think a single minion melee tank should be able to win against a single minion archer (without going ToE or anything silly).

Now when you say anything "silly" do you include 480AC walls?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:51 AM EDT

I did say single minion, and walls are for houses...

at I'm hoping to have way more AC than that when I go heavy

AdminTitan September 2 2011 10:58 AM EDT

Oh yeah, 1 minion, yeahhhh wall isn't going to do it. See you're doing it wrong nov. You need a 300M+ NW elbow for offense, and a 300M+ NW exbow for defense. The exbow serves the purpose of keeping people that are better than your from farming you; while the elbow allows you to win high up with consistency.

Zenai September 2 2011 11:38 AM EDT

*The above statement by Titan needs an amendment to be completely true:

When the proper GEAR is utilized and invested in as well as Exp Distributed on said minion.

"You cannot just throw an ELB/ExBow on a minion and expect it to work."

Thankyou miteke for inspiring this message with yours ;-)

AdminTitan September 2 2011 11:46 AM EDT

You cannot just throw an ELB/ExBow

Well with the exbow you kind of can, it works great for defensive purposes, even against somebody with extensively better gear than you. B/c on defense, you don't have to win all the time, just like once out of twenty :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 12:11 PM EDT

Pathetic huh... you really know how to make discussions enjoyable Ranger.

The exbow is the only thing in my current setup keeping Zenai from beating me, would you care to argue the factual nature of that statement?

I'm understanding that you don't believe it should be possible for someone using my setup to beat Zenai, would that be a reasonable inference?

If that is indeed your contention, I'd like an explanation of what you think a single minion melee tank should have to do in order to compete with a similar archer.

Zenai September 2 2011 12:28 PM EDT

I have no problem with the use of the ExBow it has it's place. What I do have a problem with is how it works. 1 Shot Landed and FGoD is completely useless, seriously not cool. Even with GA I still get to see my char battle it out, ExBow 1 Shot and all I see is FGoD waiting there getting pummeled into oblivion......it's disheartening to say the least.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 12:28 PM EDT

If it was any other way how would our fight end Zen...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 12:38 PM EDT

You're pretty much one of the last folks my little bow actually does that to, most folks take many more hits. You're particularly vulnerable because of your low HP and you know it... setting up for max damage has consequences.

If it wasn't one hit and done against you I'd be biding my time until your damage can kill me in three rounds, then two. The exbow never consistently hits before round four, and that's just barely consistent.

The cries about using a ToA fail to acknowledge the +299 ranged to hit made useless by penalties, why should I have to work so much harder to hit with a defensive item than Zenai does to hit with an offensive one? How much of my setup do I need to dedicate to beating one strat?

Zenai September 2 2011 12:45 PM EDT

Could it be that I must use and invest in a Skill in order to do so or I have 1/2 the capacity of success of your ExBow while you can simply use your ranged weapon?

Hmmmmm very interesting, very interesting indeed there is in fact a tradeoff it seems.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 12:49 PM EDT

Zenai... your skill is offensive and necessary for your setup
Bloodlust is every bit as necessary for mine, and more expensive.

AdminTitan September 2 2011 1:22 PM EDT

Not to mention zenai... the exbow doesn't do jack to 75% of people...

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] September 2 2011 3:55 PM EDT

Mines a pretty little paperweight that just so happens to be the kryptonite of about 3-4 teams that I can think of off the top of my head. There is currently only 1 of these teams on my fight list.

I like to put it on my PL battery and simulate what the exbow would do if it ramped down damage over time, and while it works for my team (well sometimes anyway), I can see how that wouldn't even be an option nor worth the investment with some other teams (novices for example).

As for the question should a BL Tank be able to beat a ToA Archer (or vice versa)? Honestly I really think that comes down to gear choice and what you choose to invest into (offense/defense), and there is no real way around that little fact.

I've watched novice go through many different changes with both weapons, tats, and gear choices. So far his current setup seems to be the most optimal one for him. Going ToA, which would indeed cinch the win here for good, would hurt the rest of his fight list significantly. This is why Nov has invested so heavily into the + on his ranged weapon, as an attempt to make up for both the ranged penalties and the lack of the extra pth added by the ToA.

Comparing a ToA strat to another ToA strat, or comparing any 2 similar strats for that matter, is not at all the way people should be looking at issues like these. The simple fact is you will not be fighting a similar strat to yours the vast majority of time, if ever. So comparing apples to apples in this case, or in this game at all really, completely skews the results on somethings (weapons/armor/tats) over all effectiveness.

QBRanger September 2 2011 5:54 PM EDT

The exbow is the only thing in my current setup keeping Zenai from beating me, would you care to argue the factual nature of that statement?

That is 100% factual. But is it needed? No, it is a stupid pathetic item. Nothing I have no stated a million times in the past.

I'm understanding that you don't believe it should be possible for someone using my setup to beat Zenai, would that be a reasonable inference?

To beat Z, no. But you may be able beat others that Z cannot. GA/AS characters for instance. You can likely go ToE and beat Z. So why is the exbow needed? So you can say it is the only thing to stop Z from beating you? That again is a bad excuse.

If that is indeed your contention, I'd like an explanation of what you think a single minion melee tank should have to do in order to compete with a similar archer.

Again, how about a ToE? It is a tattoo apparently designed specifically for what you cry about, the inability to beat Z without your exbow.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 5:58 PM EDT

Thanks Ranger, I needed that laugh.

What percentage of my NW should I dedicate just to beating him before I'm allowed to consider my strat valid?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] September 2 2011 6:01 PM EDT

Please stop the "exbow is needed as the foil vs the ELB" garbage. There are other ways, not as pathetic, to beat a ToA ELB user.

Only comment I wanted to make about this thought in particular is that the idea of exbow usage as being a 'pathetic' way to win is completely 100% personal opinion due to your own disdain for the item itself in its current state.

I'm not taking sides here btw, I'm simply stating my views on this particular thread and some of the comments that have been made in it.

QBRanger September 2 2011 6:04 PM EDT

That is not the point. The point is the binary nature of the 1 hit=all of Z's NW, could be 10B, is neutralize.

How bout using the ToE to counter Z? Or you would rather have the insta win with 1 hit method, the cheap method.

You stated there was no way for you to beat Z, I say you are wrong. I would like to see you use the ToE and then tell us all how you lose to Z without your stupid exbow.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 2 2011 6:05 PM EDT

How bout using the ToE to counter Z?

You can replace Z with exbow and the same thing for the other side.

AdminTitan September 2 2011 6:05 PM EDT

So, you want 1 way for a melee tank to be a ranged one Ranger? AC or auto loss? As if it wasn't hard enough.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 2 2011 6:06 PM EDT

and argue the same thing for the other side, that is.

QBRanger September 2 2011 6:07 PM EDT

AC? No I stated ToE.

There is nothing preventing novice from using the ToA or ELB also.

The exbow is just such a binary item that with 1 hit lowers the damage from 2M to 200. Too damm binary.

You can replace Z with exbow and the same thing for the other side.

We had that at one point in CB. Then it became the great game of who can hit first wins. What joy that was.

AdminTitan September 2 2011 6:09 PM EDT

You can replace Z with exbow and the same thing for the other side.

He'd probably still lose. Z'd be doing like 20M by melee. And nov would still take 4-5 rounds to kill Zen in melee. Zen could easily get one lucky shot in that time.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 6:12 PM EDT

Yeah it is about that... there is a current counter you dislike, because you regard it as cheap. I've invested hundreds of million of CB into beating Zenai, I can beat everyone else on my list without the dbs or exbow... and it's invalid.

Suggesting the ToE is as good as spitting in my face, and you know it.
.

QBRanger September 2 2011 6:16 PM EDT

Suggesting the ToE is as good as spitting in my face, and you know it.

You were the one who stated there is no other way for a single minion melee tank to beat a single minion archer. I am just disproving you wrong.

It is not a counter I dislike. It is a counter I think is a stupid binary item that lends little to strategy other than just spending NW and going after tanks to completely neuter their character in 1 hit.

And while you spend hundred of millions of CB on your exbow, Z spend more on his ELB and uses his tattoo to boost it further. And your less NW item without using a tattoo completely nullifies all his NW and tattoo and xp.

You just want a cheapish way of winning without using your tattoo slot to do it. So you can use your tattoo to beat other characters.

What we have is basically:

250M NW exbow >>> 320M NW ELB + 19M ToA

How that is fair?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 6:25 PM EDT

Z's ELB works against everyone and does damage, I've specialized in beating his specific team. I've also got $360m into my melee, and 88m into dbs if we're rattling off big numbers. Heck my 300m tat puts ANOTHER HUNDRED MILLION into my dbs. Zenai double hits about half the time... for between three and five mil.

I'd appreciate it if you would simply and clearly state that you don't believe a single minion melee tank should be a viable strat at this level. Claiming the ToE is a valid choice in this situation is insulting enough (despite the ignorance it took to think it'd actually work without the exbow) I've got no other choice but to demand you openly state your opinion about my setup.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] September 2 2011 6:31 PM EDT

Comparing Weapon vs Weapon NWs in this scenario is not at all the way it should be looked at. The exbow hits the minion itself and targets its str, it doesn't attack the weapon. The idea of comparing the weapon NWs together completely invalidates the entire argument in my opinion. You aren't comparing the correct attributes here. The comparison should be Offensive investment vs Defensive investment, CTH/PTH vs Evasion rates.

QBRanger September 2 2011 6:45 PM EDT

Your present setup, no.

However, you choose to have a barely perceptible AMF leaving yourself vulnerable to DD.

You could use a ToE, which others do, and use a mageseeker or ELB yourself instead. Or if the exbow is properly changed to something other than a 1 hit = all strength loss item, use that.

Then you can use your huge melee weapon for your main attack.

But others use the ToE. Just because you choose not to is not an insult from me to you.

AdminTitan September 2 2011 6:47 PM EDT

You could use a ToE, which others do, and use a mageseeker or ELB yourself instead.

This may be a surprise to you, but those aren't melee items...

Kefeck September 2 2011 6:48 PM EDT

The ToE shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread.. It's so irrelevant..

Zenai September 2 2011 7:34 PM EDT

Z's ELB works against everyone and does damage, I've specialized in beating his specific team. I've also got $360m into my melee, and 88m into dbs if we're rattling off big numbers. Heck my 300m tat puts ANOTHER HUNDRED MILLION into my dbs. Zenai double hits about half the time... for between three and five mil.

I think you are forgetting Stats here nov. I have 12 Mil Base Dex, 18 Mil with ToA, add in the extra PTH and yes I should hit you. Point out that I have 18 Mil Str with Items and +51% Damage in Ranged and I should hit pretty hard when you add x41.5k on the damage modifier.

No trying to start an argument here but seriously all I see is frustration because I thought out and designed my strat for maximum damage. Kind of unfair if you ask me.

Now I said it before I will say it again, in it's current form I do not agree with the ExBow. I do think it has it's place however and if there was a tweak to it I would certainly take my lumps, I do with GA/Massive HP/AC/JKF to name a few, so why not right?

It is honestly disheartening to see my char get 1 Shot and from there forward get pounded and cannot really do anything. I suppose if the PbyP said something
different I might be better with it but as it stands it simply sucks.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 7:49 PM EDT

I'm going to summarize what I've concluded.

Exbow is really good against Tanks.
Exbow is not very good against Mages.

Mageseeker is really good against Mages.
Mageseeker is is not very good against Tanks.

ELB is really good.

Also,

When you use one minion it is easy to be countered.

To beat Construct, make a single minion mage.

To beat a single minion mage, make FuerGrissa ost Drauka.

To beat FuerGrissa ost Drauka, make Construct.

Kefeck September 2 2011 8:01 PM EDT

Exbow is really good against Tanks.

It's really good against archers that do not have any defenses in place ( DB's, PL, High natural HP)


To beat Construct, make a single minion mage.

Very high melee DD spells, doesn't have to be a single minion.

To beat FuerGrissa ost Drauka, make Construct.

Construct can't hit F'GoD regularly enough to win >.>. As stated many times before the + to hit of the exbow is crap. It's more of a defensive item than anything.

GA and High AC is a much better setup to beat F'GoD.

Zenai September 2 2011 8:20 PM EDT

Have we failed to mention that Contract wipes the floor with FGoD. As a matter of a fact FGoD is a farm to Construct.....now what were we saying again?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 8:24 PM EDT

wipes the floor is not accurate, I BARELY win at this point with 1 loss a day so far, as Zenai increases his damage I will be forced to almost double my PTh to ensure I hit him in the first or second round

Zenai September 2 2011 8:29 PM EDT

1 loss in 20 certain counts as getting my clock cleaned nov, do please stop making it seem like the world is coming to an end. No offense intended but something else I see is that you want to be able to beat everyone same as with Dagobah. It's inevitable you will get beaten nov does it really matter by who?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 8:51 PM EDT

If I wanted to beat everyone Zen I'd hire minions or retrain into a heavy FB mage...

This about the active campaign to remove a viable strat and counter to archers because some folks don't like it.

My setup is as extreme as Zenai's and specifically targets him, it JUST barely allows me to fight him. Were he to significantly increase his damage, I'd be out of luck. The only option I have to increase my capability has huge diminishing returns because of ranged to hit penalties.

If I cared about who was beating me, I'd switch to a more ranged focused strat... I set out with a goal, and accomplished it.
The exbow is extreme in how it works against the teams it works best against, because the teams it works against are EXTREME in nature.
The damage output I see from Zenai is nothing short of amazing.

The game is so close between us I can't understand how people don't see the balance.

Zenai September 2 2011 9:26 PM EDT

If I wanted to beat everyone Zen I'd hire minions or retrain into a heavy FB mage...

Interesting kill all choice although the hiring bit would be prohibitive Cherap for me is 64 Mil and Expensive is 160 Mil since you are ahead of my I will venture it is a bit more.

This about the active campaign to remove a viable strat and counter to archers because some folks don't like it.

Then honestly you should have said that in the first place without the ELB is OP "Cloak and Dagger".

My setup is as extreme as Zenai's and specifically targets him, it JUST barely allows me to fight him.

The setup you have BEFORE this one was specifically designed to pwn the hell out of FGoD and that is exactly what it did, this one is a pale comparison.

Were he to significantly increase his damage, I'd be out of luck.

Indeed if I were x60k again I would get you more than you get me.

The only option I have to increase my capability has huge diminishing returns because of ranged to hit penalties.

Would not training Archery or going back to a ToA assist with this problem?

If I cared about who was beating me, I'd switch to a more ranged focused strat... I set out with a goal, and accomplished it.

Then why this when you are no longer after said goal, I take it that was wiping the floor with FGoD........lol

The exbow is extreme in how it works against the teams it works best against, because the teams it works against are EXTREME in nature.

More like low AC/HP high Str Teams

The damage output I see from Zenai is nothing short of amazing.

Well I try :-)

The game is so close between us I can't understand how people don't see the balance.

I never said there was no balance nov just that I really do not agree with an instant neutering item.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 9:39 PM EDT

Kefeck, I was oversimplifying to make a point.

Zen, I actually stated he was your counter.

Though, I think we're overlooking something else as the focus is too much on the Exbow.

I managed to beat Horror last night with my much weaker character (600k less MPR, 3mil less Power, 800mil less NW) simply by adding novice's 88mil NW Displacement Boots +202. Which obviously would have closed the NW/PR gap some, but not much.

This is similar to what is going on in this fight. I think it's cute that people have a problem with a 265mil NW Exbow negating Zen's damage but no problem with 97mil NW DB's nearly doing the same thing to that Exbow.

Kefeck September 2 2011 9:46 PM EDT

Indeed if I were x60k again I would get you more than you get me.

that actually most likely wouldn't matter.

You need to up your HP or evasion.

QBRanger September 2 2011 9:49 PM EDT

This about the active campaign to remove a viable strat and counter to archers because some folks don't like it.

This is by me a campaign to get rid of a stupid item when there are other ways to counter the ELB. Other than 1 hit = complete loss of strength.

I managed to beat Horror last night with my much weaker character (600k less MPR, 3mil less Power, 800mil less NW) simply by adding novice's 88mil NW Displacement Boots +202. Which obviously would have closed the NW/PR gap some, but not much.

That is because my familiar was in back. In another position you would not beat me even with novice's DBs.

This is similar to what is going on in this fight. I think it's cute that people have a problem with a 265mil NW Exbow negating Zen's damage but no problem with 97mil NW DB's nearly doing the same thing to that Exbow.

As evidence by Z getting hit, the 97M NW DBs do not do the same thing.

And on a multiminion character using leadership, it is almost impossible to have your DBs counter their PTH. With 1 hit = total loss, that is very unfair.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] September 2 2011 10:00 PM EDT

This is by me a campaign to get rid of a stupid item when there are other ways to counter the ELB. Other than 1 hit = complete loss of strength.

Might as well nuke EC while you are at it.

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:02 PM EDT

Might as well nuke EC while you are at it.

How did EC get into the discussion?

EC is pathetic as it is. With the ToA's all the xp needed in EC is just a waste. Even without the ToA, the xp needed to compete with the bonus strength from the TSA alone is too much to really dent a tanks damage much.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:03 PM EDT

I get your point. That DB =/= Exbow effect.

Let's make more comparable. Add a % chance that the weaker/drained minion will ignore the effects of exbow. Say, 20%?

The Exbow does serve some purpose and it's not just to nerf high STR characters.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:05 PM EDT

So lets review...

ELB v. Exbow, frighteningly balanced despite the extreme nature of the teams in question

Ranger is admittedly on a long term campaign to eliminate the exbow as a viable counter to the ELB. For some arbitrary reason using weapons against weapons is pathetic.

The ToE is the answer!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 2 2011 10:07 PM EDT

ToE really doesn't work against that sort of damage. You need ToE + high AC or ToE + exbow really.

Zenai September 2 2011 10:12 PM EDT

ToE/AC/HP

RoS/GA/AS

JKF/UC/Decay

IF/AS/GA/Decay


Plenty of counters I would say!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:13 PM EDT

just none that work on a single minion melee tank...

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:15 PM EDT

ELB v. Exbow, frighteningly balanced despite the extreme nature of the teams in question

Not even close. You seem to think if you type it enough it is true.

Z needs a tattoo + a huge ELB vs your exbow.

You free up your tattoo slot, he gets his nerfed by your less NW exbow.

How is that balanced? Again, not even close. You beat him over 95% of the time. Close? Pfft.

Ranger is admittedly on a long term campaign to eliminate the exbow as a viable counter to the ELB. For some arbitrary reason using weapons against weapons is pathetic.

I completely agree, except for the arbitrary reason. The reason is well stated by me. It is a 1 hit = complete loss of the minions use for the entire rest of the battle. Any xp, NW, and tattoo are gone from the battle with 1 successful hit.

ToE really doesn't work against that sort of damage. You need ToE + high AC or ToE + exbow really.

The ToE at novice's level should reduce the damage by over 1/2. Then novice can chew up Z in melee with his VB and his RBF vs Z firing and possibly hitting 1 time every other round. The ToE should work just fine at that level as the ToE has no damage cap like in the past. It will reduce physical damage of all types by >50%.

So let's review.

Exbow >>> ELB + Tattoo. How is that "frightening balanced"?

Zenai September 2 2011 10:16 PM EDT

They could nov you would just need to make em strong! I think something is being forgotten in the mist of this FGoD is a Top 10 Char so it's shouldn't be THAT easy to just drop em.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:19 PM EDT

Ok so by losing the RoBF I lose 100m in DB based evasion, that's another half a hit for Zen, I've dropped his damage by half with the ToE,so that's only ~ 24m damage he can do... hmm how much HP does my minion, the minion with the most natural HP in game have... hmmm

you two are jokers, play the game and shut the hell up

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:20 PM EDT

just none that work on a single minion melee tank...

Based upon the battle you posted vs Z, a ToE would work wonders for your survival and you would mop up the floor with Z.

Assuming 2 hits a round at 3M a pop without the ToE that is 6M a hit.

6M x 6 rounds =36M. Divided by 2 due to the ToE is 18M leaving you with plenty of room to beat him to a pulp in melee.

And please stop it with the ToE is insulting. You asked for a way a melee tank could survive vs Z. Just because you do not want to use it does not make it nonviable. You just want to have your cake and eat it too.

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:21 PM EDT

you two are jokers, play the game and shut the hell up

That is no way for an admin to address 2 players who are easily disproving his statements.

You asked for a way to be a melee tank without the exbow. I have given you one that you refuse to even consider, dismissing it out of hand.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:21 PM EDT

you forget that ditching the RoBF makes Zen always double hit, and his average against me is 4m, so 2m. 4m a round x6 == dead.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:23 PM EDT

So, basically novice. Get a ToE, lose the exbow (cause it's stupid) and use either an ELB, SoD, or Mageseeker. You should not have the choice of any other items to make your team good vs. one particular team.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:25 PM EDT

The added AC from SS and .57 of the ToE really do help a lot

If the ToE weren't a boat anchor against everyone else I could go this way

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:27 PM EDT

Lose a fair bit of my fightlist with it as well

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:27 PM EDT

< you forget that ditching the RoBF makes Zen always double hit, and his average against me is 4m, so 2m. 4m a round x6 == dead.

I get an average of 3.3M per hit vs you now. But my math and eyes can be wrong.

Either way any discussion of the exbow being overpowered and bad for the game due to its binary nature is dismissed by you as my personal something or other.

No reason to continue. And this thread is just foolish to try to prove anything. I think those in the game already have their opinions of the exbow.

I had to switch my whole strat around due to its binary nature nerfing my ToA tank completely with 1 hit. So stupid an item it be.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:29 PM EDT

Ok, so the ToE works. I take everything I said about it (except that it's otherwise nearly useless) back.

I still think the solution to this is a str generating or regenerating item. A weapon based counter to a weapon is kinda cool.

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:30 PM EDT

Lose a fair bit of my fightlist with it as well

I never did say the ToE was a great tattoo. It just is a way for a melee tank to beat a ToA archer.

I do not know how many hp you have vs Z after your battle with the ToE. However, you realize your AMF is pathetic for your level. Mages should do wonders vs you as a single minion.

I would think perhaps a mageseeker would be better with the ToE to try to kill those mages before they can cream you. The ToE to help vs physical damage.

Zenai September 2 2011 10:31 PM EDT

Checks and Balances nov you cannot have it all it's the way of CB.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] September 2 2011 10:32 PM EDT

EC is pathetic as it is. With the ToA's all the xp needed in EC is just a waste. Even without the ToA, the xp needed to compete with the bonus strength from the TSA alone is too much to really dent a tanks damage much.

That wasn't my point, my point was EC can accomplish the same exact goal that the exbow does to an even greater degree, without any binary nature to it, and without a single chance of dodging it.

Yes EC is terrible, and no one bothers to use it except for a few teams who it works quite well for because they invested heavily into it. But that doesn't at all change the fact that it has the capability of doing the same thing before combat even starts.

I can tell you the reason it doesn't get used much, 1.) Not enough tanks to warrant the huge XP needed 2.) Most tanks go ToA making it useless from the get go.

Exbow is binary in nature and requires huge amounts of CBD invested into it to make it work, and it will only be useful vs at best a handful of targets. In short, it either works or it doesn't, there is no in between.

EC on the other hand only requires only xp, but it works 100% of the time, only snag being it has been rendered almost useless by the near lack of none ToA tanks/tanks in general.

Now does any of that still change what it is capable of, given proper usage? One requires massive CBD, the other requires massive XP. One is Binary, the other is guaranteed, but both can accomplish the same goal.

Basically what I'm saying is, everyone can pick which side of the story they want to see, and we can all pick out examples to try to back up our points. Just because we can do that, doesn't make them valid.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:32 PM EDT

I've considered it, and my eventual setup will very likely rely on the MsK to deal with mages. My AMF is no longer tiny, a mil is respectable enough considering I've only been training it a little less than a month. Beginning of next summer I should be able to start training HP again.

QBRanger September 2 2011 10:32 PM EDT

I still think the solution to this is a str generating or regenerating item. A weapon based counter to a weapon is kinda cool.

I would agree to an item, but would disagree with a melee weapon as the foil.

Then you force tanks to spend hundreds of millions of CB on a melee weapon just to counter a broken item, IMO.

A helm would be the most logical choice I can see. Forfeit a round of missile attack to get strength back in melee.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:35 PM EDT

The helm was my original idea, but I really like the weapon one.

It gives people like Zen a reason to throw on a melee weapon (which would actually make our fight with the ToE on much closer). The NW focus of the ELB is a major issue, balancing that by asking folks to invest in melee makes sense.

Verifex's amulet is first in line... but I'm still pushing for a str item

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:35 PM EDT

So was the idea of adding a % chance to ignore Exbow effect a bad one?

It would still be an effective item and do its job, but not make the minion 100% worthless. Or are we afraid this would add too much randomness?

There's also the possibility of adding something along the lines of, every 3 rounds it ignores the Exbow effect so that it's not as random as a flat 20%.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:39 PM EDT

The exbow is too random already, if it needs adjusting it's in the damage done v. HP % comparison. I think it could drop to 85-75% as much as it is and still be semi-viable given additional balance against elb damage is also put into place.

I'm all about making the exbow work without breaking tanks.

Zenai September 2 2011 10:40 PM EDT

Why not Tweak the ELB if the balance is so in question? I have said it a million times let's balance what we have before adding new things. Now dont get me wrong I do want new toys to play with but right now our bigger issue is the stuff that is broken or in need of updating.

Fex's Amulet?
Helm?

Please Explain

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:41 PM EDT

The current issue is that the exbow can end the fight for vulnerable tanks pretty early. The suggested fix was a melee weapon that GENERATED (not regenerate) Strength each round as it hit.

Sickone September 2 2011 10:43 PM EDT

Easiest and dirtiest fix ?
The EXBow effect top-capped to a max of 50% drain no matter what, and drain should be out of CURRENT//remaining ST, not out of INITIAL//base ST.
Still heavily cripples a tank, especially with multiple hits, but it's no longer a one-hit-target-useless thing.

A slightly less easy and slightly less dirty fix would be to noticeably buff its raw damage potential and make its ST drain be a proportion of target's ST equal to the HP damage (so only reducing it to 0 ST when target is actually dead, even if it stops being a major threat noticeably before).
But it's still not a very good fix even like that.

Got any better ideas, guys and gals ?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 10:45 PM EDT

I've been against the cap simply because I don't think the it would work in the examples I'm dealing with, but it's already so poor as an offensive weapon I think it'd just seal the coffin.

Zenai September 2 2011 10:47 PM EDT

Interesting. Oh and I was planning on a Melee weapon anyway but if this comes around then I would snag one >:-)

Still didn't answer:

Amulet and Helm though

Duke September 2 2011 11:02 PM EDT

A idea i had is to rework the TOA level = STR bonus + pth bonus + 2% HP regen + 25% STR/DEX regen per round. Why 25% regen is EX/AXbow send the useur in the negative heavy negative.

TSA HP regen would be nerf to 2% and its will gain the 25% STR/DEX regen.

QBsutekh137 September 2 2011 11:04 PM EDT

That is no way for an admin to address 2 players who are easily disproving his statements.

Aw, come on, Ranger. You don't like it when the people you're trying to debate with don't play straight up like you want? What, you're mad they aren't trying to find common ground? Not just immediately agreeing with your (subjective) statements?

Yeah. That well and truly sucks, doesn't it?

QBRanger September 2 2011 11:13 PM EDT

No,

I get mad when people start acting unprofessional in the forums.

"Shut the hell up" is not professional. I do not believe I have used such language in the forums. I know I do not curse in CMs and yet have people curse at me in them.

QBsutekh137 September 2 2011 11:21 PM EDT

Oh come on. "Shut the hell up" is like the Seinfeld "SHUT UP!" or a classic "Get outta here!"

When did your skin get so thin? And if it did, why the heck are you dishing it out so vociferously? If you can't take it, man, then, well...what they said.

Sometimes you really baffle me, Ranger. Not giving a good crap about respecting anyone, on any thread, and the next moment hiding behind non-existent momma-skirts. What's going on with that? Why would _anyone_ put up for you on being bullied when you act like a recalcitrant, disrespecting bully in every other possible regard?

And, yes. I'd be the very first person defending your backside off right now if you ever showed ONE iota of tact and respect or common-ground-reaching in other threads. Absolutely.

QBsutekh137 September 2 2011 11:22 PM EDT

Oops, I meant the Seinfeld: "Get OUT!" <Elaine pushes someone>

Zenai September 2 2011 11:36 PM EDT

"Shut the hell up" is not professional.

Context and it is rude therefore making it "Unprofessional"

BTW expecting someone in a GAME to act PROFESSIONAL is prepping yourself for failure. I believe the term you are really looking for is Courteous or Congenial or even Well Mannered(still asking to be let down though)


I do not believe I have used such language in the forums.

Because you would get forum banned and your voice is your only tool you absolutely cannot lose that or you would likely go insane and quit CB for the umteenth time.

I know I do not curse in CMs and yet have people curse at me in them.

Yes you have Ranger, same with PMs. It's when they went to far in your own mind that you decided to bring this up. Grown ups can use profane words and not be jerks to each other at the same time......it's all a matter of context and perception.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2011 11:41 PM EDT

I won't defend my frustrated words, and am sorry I spoke before actually trying the suggestion. My own irrational response to a suggestion I believed was ridiculous left me bristling. I shut up and tried it and dammed if it didn't work...

Now I do take issue with being called names like admin, I'm a sub-admin thank you very much.

AdminTitan September 2 2011 11:56 PM EDT

So much stupid in this thread, don't know where to start. First off, anyone that suggests that nov uses the ToE, find your closest friend and tell him to slap you till you come to your senses.

Next:

This is by me a campaign to get rid of a stupid item when there are other ways to counter the ELB. Other than 1 hit = complete loss of strength.

There are currently two ways for a team that is purely a melee tank team as their damage dealer to beat a ranged ELB user. And only of them can work on a single minion. That sir is stupid! Not the elbow.

The EXBow effect top-capped to a max of 50% drain no matter what, and drain should be out of CURRENT//remaining ST, not out of INITIAL//base ST.

Already said, if you do this, might as well get rid of the exbow, it wouldn't fulfill any purpose if you did this. It's hard enough already to get one hit....

Then you force tanks to spend hundreds of millions of CB on a melee weapon just to counter a broken item, IMO.

You mean like melee tanks spend 300M on a melee weapon that they don't even get to use because they die in round 4?

Finally, this really tops it off.

I get mad when people start acting unprofessional in the forums.

Doesn't even need a reply. You know what you've done here.

That's just some of the best of stupid comments I could fine. But, I'm sure you guys can do better! Keep it up.

AdminTitan September 3 2011 12:02 AM EDT

A slightly less easy and slightly less dirty fix would be to noticeably buff its raw damage potential and make its ST drain be a proportion of target's ST equal to the HP damage (so only reducing it to 0 ST when target is actually dead, even if it stops being a major threat noticeably before).

This actually isn't a terrible idea. If you could boost it enough so it's actually a half decent weapon against non tanks. But, then, you'd also have to buff the bth significantly so you could actually hit tanks with it.

lostling September 3 2011 12:49 AM EDT

% of current strength solves all problems

Duke September 3 2011 12:57 AM EDT

AX/EXbow CTH is not worse or better that SOD and unlike the ELB its does not need a skill. If you want to increase is CTH make that a skill does not change the item.

Zenai September 3 2011 1:03 AM EDT

If you want to increase is CTH make that a skill

Have said this a few times the name tossed around a few times was Crossbowmanship. Another Idea was to add this into Archery on a whole.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 3 2011 1:06 AM EDT

I made a suggestion before to lower bow's bth to 60 and below to be in line with other ranged weapons, drop archery and add in Sniper which will add 40-60 btw when trained to the full ratio needed. Also add in Weapon mastery which does the same for melee weapons.

AdminTitan September 3 2011 1:22 AM EDT

If you want to increase is CTH make that a skill does not change the item.

Yeah, b/c if there's one thing melee tank users need, it's a reduction of like 70% to their damage.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] September 3 2011 2:14 AM EDT

% of current strength solves all problems

^

Raise the BTH, change the drain to said above. Raising the BTH doesn't hurt much since xBows fire every other round, thus the weapon hits more but isn't a "omg if this weapon doesn't hit in ranged I'm screwed" weapon.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] September 3 2011 2:26 AM EDT

nub is nub, and drunk, ignore my statement?

QBRanger September 3 2011 8:27 AM EDT

There are currently two ways for a team that is purely a melee tank team as their damage dealer to beat a ranged ELB user. And only of them can work on a single minion. That sir is stupid! Not the elbow.

Why do we have to make it so a single minion character can be a melee tank. Do we have to make it so a single minion CoC or SG mage has to have a viable strat?

According to Jon, multi minion characters are preferred, and multiple damage types are preferred, as stated by our sub-admin.

The problem I have is with the 1 hit = complete minion loss. If we had chance for regeernation of strength or a % of strength lost that would be far better.

You mean like melee tanks spend 300M on a melee weapon that they don't even get to use because they die in round 4?

Nobody ever told novice to make a 300M NW melee weapon. But to have to make one yourself to counter 1 item is laughable.

There are currently two ways for a team that is purely a melee tank team as their damage dealer to beat a ranged ELB user. And only of them can work on a single minion. That sir is stupid! Not the elbow.

Just because you do not like the ToE do not dismiss it. If one really really wants to make a single minion melee tank that is your option.

We all know that is a foolish thing. Well maybe not with the exbow. Just like someone making a single minion SG mage. Not a great idea in CB.

Most people in CB realize single minion characters in CB should be quick killers. At least that is how is used to be. NOw with the exbow we have the great 1 hit wonder.

Doesn't even need a reply. You know what you've done here.

No I really do not. I suggested using the ToE and go yelled at by a SUB-sdmin. Just because you think my idea is the stupidest thing since the Betamax, does not mean it will not work. If you are foolish enough to try a melee single minion, then use the foolish tattoo designed for that purpose.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2011 11:34 AM EDT

Thanks for being clear Ranger, I appreciate your candor...

AdminTitan September 3 2011 2:57 PM EDT

Just because you think my idea is the stupidest thing since the Betamax, does not mean it will not work.

No it doesn't, but it won't...

According to Jon, multi minion characters are preferred, and multiple damage types are preferred, as stated by our sub-admin.

You mean like the opposite of a elb archer?

Ranger you're really getting ridiculous at this point.

QBRanger September 3 2011 2:57 PM EDT

I won't defend my frustrated words, and am sorry I spoke before actually trying the suggestion. My own irrational response to a suggestion I believed was ridiculous left me bristling. I shut up and tried it and dammed if it didn't work...

As I appreciate yours. Hopefully we can still have debates on this controversial subject and keep it civil.

I personally like the debates until they turn into name calling. Something I in the past have been party to as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2011 4:36 PM EDT

Why do we have to make it so a single minion character can be a melee tank. Do we have to make it so a single minion CoC or SG mage has to have a viable strat?

No.

We can always do as I wanted ages ago, and add a disclaimer when creating new teams to *bold* a message letting you know CB doesn't balance the game for single minions, and they are, by design, supposed to be inferior to every other choice in the game.

(bar the stupid 100% base CTH Elbow backed by unlimited USD spending ofc)

Purely because Jon thinks they're boring. (Yes he does, if you *really* want me to find his post, I will. But trust me, those are Jon's words. Single Minions are boring.)

But then again, there is *so* much in CB that is either unbalanced, or unnecessary, that Single Melee Tank versus Single ELbow Archer is a drop in the ocean.

I'll ask one question I'd really like someone with input in the game to answer.

What is the purpose of the Ranged rounds? Are they designed to 'soften' up a team, to be finished off in the real majority of the game? Or are they designed as a viable way to destroy an entire team, potentially before that team can even react?

5/6 rounds versus 44/45.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2011 5:14 PM EDT

I've found the following by Jon on the original change from 3 to 5 ranged rounds;

Seriously though one of the points here is to increase the number of fights going to melee

Zenai September 3 2011 5:38 PM EDT

Honestly I do not really care as much as most may think. I am not using a Melee weapon because I really have no need for it. At least not for a small % of farmers that I have anyway, the diminishing returns are far too much so I take my lumps. If it became absolutely necessary I wouldn't mind popping one back on, the one nov was talking about would be at the Top of my list.(strength regen sword I think).

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 3 2011 5:41 PM EDT

Axe, it would be an axe.

Zenai September 3 2011 5:41 PM EDT

Would SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sport it!
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003DUR">The ELB v. the Exbow - FoD v. Construct</a>