Is it legal to make store generate Ex Shots? (in General)


Talion November 28 2007 11:32 AM EST

Is this legal now?

User IP What When
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 sell 9,190 Iron Shots ($2113) 10:32 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 448 Explosive Shots ($224) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 1,147 Explosive Shots ($573) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 961 Explosive Shots ($480) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 1,035 Explosive Shots ($517) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 1,035 Explosive Shots ($517) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 1,300 Iron Shots ($299) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 1,356 Iron Shots ($312) 10:31 AM EST
Thanatos [t] (CrowNoessII) 97.84.202.155 buy 1,408 Iron Shots ($324) 10:31 AM EST

QBJohnnywas November 28 2007 12:00 PM EST

I thought it wasn't possible to force a store refresh like that. I thought it was something Jon had done away with when he introduced CB2.

And looking at the times it's more likely they were already there and this is just evidence of a good catch.

AdminShade November 28 2007 12:14 PM EST

it has always been possible to do this, and no it is not legal...

Wasp [Demon Forging] November 28 2007 12:26 PM EST

Perhaps he was unaware of this rule. As camping was removed one would of thought little about this. Agreed, it is still against the rules and ignorance is no excuse. We are all human. I doubt Thanatos done this knowing the rules.

Thanatos November 28 2007 12:54 PM EST

I was unaware there was a rule about buying lots of shot.
Because it is a percentage possiblity that there will be explosive shot I have bought lots sometimes I have gotten it and then other time someone else have gotten it.

I have bought shot everytime I am on and you are limited to ten buys in 20 minutes.

I will not do it anymore
Would someone show me the rule your not allowed to buy all the time you are on.
It is limited like I said.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 28 2007 12:56 PM EST

it might not be legal, but if this is the ONLY way to get exp shot I'm surprised this didn't happen earlier, with the well praised and well loved no ammo limit, every one can hoard them now very easy, making only a few persons have a lot of them.
Instead of the old 15k rule with were you can't buy more then 15k, making a lot of persons have a few of them.
Just check auctions, when was the last time you saw any and actually bought them?
Bring back the ammo limit!!!!! (prop 151)

Thanatos November 28 2007 12:58 PM EST

And It does not happen everytime but if more people bought it would happen more often. So if I do not get it to regenerate the next person was lucky and benefited.

Talion November 28 2007 1:13 PM EST

"And It does not happen every time but if more people bought it would happen more often. So if I do not get it to regenerate the next person was lucky and benefited."

I used to do the same thing with Seeker Bolts and I got warned not to do it or get fined. It sort of ruined my NCB strategy at the time because it was almost impossible to maintain a usable amount of Seeker Bolts any other way.

Now it is the same situation with Explosive Shot users.

So I want to know if it became legal so I can load my NCB with thousands of Explosive Shots for a fraction of the going auction price. Especially since you can now buy unlimited amounts of ammo.

My guess is that everyone doing it will soon receive a warning.

TheHatchetman November 28 2007 1:18 PM EST

Wait!

People actually used seeker bolts?

Talion November 28 2007 1:19 PM EST

"I was unaware there was a rule about buying lots of shot."

Actually, it is legal to buy lots of shots if you are planning to use them. If you are just buying them so the store generates new stacks of Explosive Shots to replenish your dwindling supply, then it is illegal.

I am 100% against this rule, but I will sure as heck not be the only one suffering it. I'm still having trouble digesting those old fine warnings, even if they were justified.

Talion November 28 2007 1:20 PM EST

"People actually used seeker bolts?"

LOL! I think I was the only one... which is why the store was almost never generating any new stacks.

Thanatos November 28 2007 1:24 PM EST

It sad that you got warned for spending your cb on the stuff you wanted.

Since there is an easy fix, make it refresh in big chunks and let you only buy one in 48 hours and unsellable.

That way anybody that wanted it would have a reasonable chance of getting some with out being raped in auctions.

Talion November 28 2007 1:29 PM EST

Actually, there are 3 easy fixes:

(1) Get rid of ammo. Amen!

(2) Re-introduce the cap and make it impossible to sell ammo. You buy it, you use it.

(3) Get rid of Explosive Shots and introduce the "Explosive Sling".

Thanatos November 28 2007 1:37 PM EST

I vote for 2 or 3 both great ideas.

But, it is my only thing that does mass damage with out training dd spell, I like my useless tanks they are more fun than getting automatic hits every round, and I spend no usd on my tanks.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] November 28 2007 1:39 PM EST

Are we really sure this forces them to spawn again? Won't they spawn again anyways without anybody even buying the exp shots? When camping was still here, buying a MH did not constitute another MH spawning anytime soon...

Thanatos November 28 2007 1:47 PM EST

I would check almost everytime I get on the computer.
Buy, shot, check auctions, forums, leave come back later do it again.
The more that is bought the more chance of it spawning.

Oh, ya buy it if it was there unless someone else got it first.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2007 1:47 PM EST

It doesn't force them to spawn, it causes the shop to refresh giving a chance for exp shots to spawn.

TheHatchetman November 28 2007 1:49 PM EST

ammo refreshes by groups...
When low on arrows, arrows spawn immediately.
When low on bolts, bolts spawn immediately.
When low on shots, shots spawn immediately, both iron and explosive. being out of explosive shots doesnt mean the store is low on shots if there are still iron shots in there.

Soxjr November 28 2007 1:51 PM EST

I think this comes back to what he did. He he wouldn't have sold the 9k stack then there wouldn't be a problem. That would have shown he was buying ammo he needed and then bought some explosive shot also. Where he made an illegal action was guying Iron shot to force a refresh then buying all the explosive shot and selling the iron shot he had that he no longer needed.

Just thought I would clarify which part of the rule he was breaking.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] November 28 2007 2:32 PM EST

Can someone please tell me why this is not legal... It is plausible for anyone to do this and he is still spending his hard earned money to buy the stacks then loses money by selling them for less than he payed. Ultimately I see no reason why this should not happen besides filling the store full of bigger stacks of useless ammo that nobody uses anyways and gets dumped at cache flush anyways. What would stop someone from just buying Iron shots then hoarding them for eons just to get a refresh on the exp shot... And who's the wiser for it?

I would assume the reason you weren't allowed to do this before is because there wasn't such an increased spawn rate on ammo and due to the 15k limit which made buying huge stacks of ammo hard to do. Change with the times... This should now be legal in all ways...

QBRanger November 28 2007 2:39 PM EST

Perhaps the sling of death should be like the mageseeker bow-makes normal iron shots explosive.

I personally have no problem with it but others, however, may.

QBRanger November 28 2007 2:46 PM EST

Perhaps this is pertinent as this subject has been brought up and dissected before:
Previous discussion about store camping

QBOddBird November 28 2007 2:54 PM EST

"(2) Re-introduce the cap and make it impossible to sell ammo. You buy it, you use it."

That'd be AWESOME. Me being a melee-only tank, I'd simply make gifts of iron shot to bow-users when they ran out of arrows.

Unsellable ammo ftw!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] November 28 2007 3:03 PM EST

That entire discussion still does not stop users from buying large sums of shot and then hoarding them forevermore... how is an admin supposed to enforce this rule if there is nothing visibly being broken... I could just sit back and buy all the iron shot and exp shot and just hoard them... maybe even never to be used... but how is an admin supposed to know besides checking the store purchase logs all the time... which an admin shouldn't be wasting time on something like that when there are more important issues like multis out there. And how is an admin to pin it on me?

What If I bought all the Iron shot and exp shot and was planning on making an ncb in the future to use it all? And what if I was fined for no reason even though I had a plan for an ncb to use it all as it where. Then that would be one sure fire way to make people quit... There are way to many ways around this little rule... so it should either be dropped due to the no cap limit now... or change the way the Exp shot spawns.

TheHatchetman November 28 2007 3:04 PM EST

that's why im only hording arrows and bolts currently

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] November 28 2007 3:07 PM EST

QBRanger, 2:39 PM EST
"Perhaps the sling of death should be like the mageseeker bow-makes normal iron shots explosive.

I personally have no problem with it but others, however, may."

The only way I would be willing to see this is if the base damage on an sod is turned down... an Uber Sod with exp shots could theoretically take down the bigs guys if they hit in less than 4 rounds. And lets just say at times... even Freed with his +30 Exp shot and his sod can break my 197 evasion in the first round and any other round after that.

QBOddBird November 28 2007 3:10 PM EST

I like SoD's as they are...with Iron shot, they are the same as a Compound Bow, and you don't have to train Archery to use them. Get your paws on some Explosive Shot, and they rock much more.

Thanatos November 28 2007 4:04 PM EST

Talion I now understand why you are mad.
and thanks to Ranger I was able to read the old post.

It seams all they want is you to use what you buy.
I have almost 200,000 arrows on one minion a 25,000 bolts on two minions and 35,000 iron shot on the other.
So it seems I should not have sold any of it back to the store even thou there may be a few people out there that would prefer to buy bigger stacks of ammo.

Ranger Thank You for the link to the other post, it was a good read.

Talion November 28 2007 4:06 PM EST

"I'd simply make gifts of iron shot to bow-users"

Of course my idea implies that you cannot transfer them to other users either. :)

I would allow ammo to be transfered between a user's characters though.

AdminG Beee November 28 2007 4:08 PM EST

Jon, please move ex shot into auctions.

QBJohnnywas November 28 2007 4:11 PM EST

Ex shot into auctions. Yes. I hate the hoarding. How much stuff is just sitting on chars never to be used?

Grrr.

Thanatos November 28 2007 4:16 PM EST

I have some and will use it.
But until I can afford to get my SoD + up enuff that I can hit someone with it it seem like it would be a waste and since it take forever to get a decent amount of it I have been continually working at getting it.

QBRanger November 28 2007 5:32 PM EST

Draco and others:

I have always been against being able to boost ammo beyond x1 +0.

It is a cheap way to get uber damage and PTH.

IMO, all ammo should be base only. Named ammo would get a bonus, possibly x2 +1 at most.

QBRanger November 28 2007 5:34 PM EST

Talion,

If there is an ammo cap of 15k, all ammo on all your characters apply to that cap.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] November 28 2007 5:41 PM EST

You and I are in agreement there Ranger... Taking away the upgrade ability would keep away from uber damage till someone dumped another few mil into the x of their sod. But yes I see the point... and agree wholeheartedly!

Talion November 28 2007 8:12 PM EST

"If there is an ammo cap of 15k, all ammo on all your characters apply to that cap."

I know. Why did you write this?

[P]Mitt November 28 2007 9:26 PM EST

Without reading any of the previous posts....

Forcing store refreshes is against the rules. Period. It is punished by a fine+confiscation of what was obtained by the forced refresh. And multiple offenses are resettable.

Even if it is for "unrare" items, the fact that you are store refreshing screws up the store: in this case, you buy lots and lots of iron shots, the store refreshes, you buy the ex. shots and sell your iron shots. Now what? The store is overflowing with iron shots, and it will be even further away in time until the store refreshes naturally. You are screwing up the normal mechanics of how the Weapon Store works.

So even though Jon placed all of the "rare" items into auctions directly, I think the past rule should stand. Confiscate the items obtained unfairly, fine and warn the user. And if the user is too stupid to realize that what they're doing wrong after multiple offenses, reset them.

Thanatos November 28 2007 10:52 PM EST

That is pretty judgemental for something with so many opinions that you have not even bothered to read.

So your the Judge, Jury, and Exacutioner.
With out even looking at the evidence.
I respect Talion I believe he was mad because I ended up doing what he had did earlier and was told he would be fined. At least I was Informed I might be breaking a rule? ????????
You may ask, what rule? my answer. I do not know.

A rule page might help, just a thought.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 28 2007 11:04 PM EST

What evidence? From what I can gather the posts above are just about you making an accident and people suggesting solutions... and I'm quite sure Mitt wouldn't ask "what rule", he just said what he thinks it is right there.

[P]Mitt November 29 2007 12:33 AM EST

That is pretty judgemental for something with so many opinions that you have not even bothered to read.

Well now I have read through all the evidence, and I still believe firmly in the rule. Talion's thread discussing this (as re-posted as a link by Ranger) is the exact same situation except that it was on bolts, AND the rare ammo spawned in auctions.

As a player that has seen many of the abuses forcing store refreshes can do (I've been playing for ~5.5 years now?) I still stand firmly on what I have said. This time, a warning is definitely deserved (as in: no other punishment), but a call for a "rule" page is completely unnecessary: This rule is like a forgotten law that while it has been forgotten, still carries the same potency and rules for punishment as if it was just passed.

AdminNightStrike November 29 2007 1:22 AM EST

"Would someone show me the rule your not allowed to buy all the time you are on. "

That's not possible. In this game, people aren't allowed to find out the rules until they break them (or watch someone else break them), at which point they receive a hefty fine and a message similar to "You should have known better, you idiotic NUB!" It's a pathetic system that receives much criticism, but one that also will never change for some equally pathetic reason.

j'bob November 29 2007 1:28 AM EST

Attention attention! New supporter item.
Ring of Narya

While wearing this ring, any ranged projectile becomes
"EXPLOSIVE".
Since it takes a lot of power to make such a conversion
it leaves the bearer weakened (during use only = ranged rounds)
causing something similar to a - 15 to AC.
Again, you heard it here first.

BluBBen November 29 2007 4:02 AM EST

I did this and asked an admin if it was allowed. I got the answere that it was an abuse and therefore it wasn't allowed.

Soxjr November 29 2007 4:30 AM EST

NS.. where in this thread did Thanatos get fined? or told he was an idiodic nub? just wondering.. maybe you are upset about something in the past and need to let it out, but your example there isn't what happened. Talion posted to ask if it was legal now since he was told it wasn't and could be fined.. Also not fined and crucified befor getting a warning. Then a discussion ensued, as always, because so many people have their own personal oppinions about what should and shouldn't be allowed. I think mitt showed a great reason why this shouldn't be allowed. It is against the rules and the rules are there because it influences the dynamics of how the store runs. Seems simple enough, and if it isn't in the rules it's easy to fix. Simple change on a Wiki page.

Flamey November 29 2007 4:37 AM EST

He said thats what happens usually. Not in this particular case. I'm not going to disagree with him either.

Thanatos November 29 2007 7:13 AM EST

Some of the facts

Yes I bought shot everytime I was on

Would merge everything I bought

Sometimes I would merge and equip it to the minion with SoD

Sometimes I would sell the merged stack back to the store.

Sometimes Exp. Shot would spawn and I would buy what I could

Sometimes I could not buy it if it was there, limit ten buy's every 20 minutes

Sometimes others got it first.

No I was not fined

No I was not warned

Yes it is the same thing he did.

No, I did not know he did this.

No, the store set up is different now.

Talion posted, and I stopped buying everytime I am on.
Good that he did so this a public debate

I took that as I might be breaking a rule.

There are many good comments both ways. Including yours, which you explained the second time. Maybe it is a rule, maybe its not, maybe its out dated with the new store set up. Only Jon knows. I have accepted that it might be and will be waiting to see if Jon comments on this. When I sold back to the store it was a big block of ammo. So anyone needing a block of shot would buy the one I sold back because they would not need to use there ten buys weather regular characters or tourney ones. So I did not flood the market with a bunch of useless stacks of 120 Iron shot.

j'bob November 29 2007 7:23 AM EST

Ya know, I've been reading along and I'm certainly not trying to ruffle the feathers of people who have been here longer and know more about this game than me but... does it ACTUALLY say somewhere that tricking the store into spawning exp shot is a no no? No, I'm not trying to start trouble.
And just my humble opinion, i have more respect for someone forcing the store to spawn items that THEY are going to use as opposed to people camping (figuratively, i know that's not what its called anymore) and buying items just to sell in auctions and make cash off. (which is something i have done myself... the buying and auctioning of exp shot). Not that there's anything expressly wrong with that either, just stating which devil i prefer.
oh, and Happy Thursday!

AdminNightStrike November 30 2007 2:08 PM EST

"does it ACTUALLY say somewhere that tricking the store into spawning exp shot is a no no?"

No, it doesn't. And that is why I made the comments that I did. It is the custom on this site to never explicitly write down rules, even when they are hard and fast. Instead, people are expected to discover them on their own for some inane reason. Hopefully, you discover the rules by watching someone else lose all their cash instead of doing it yourself.

Yes, it is a ludicrous system.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 30 2007 5:28 PM EST

I really thought you'd given up on those tirades NS...

Yes there were long standing posted rules against farming the store, but they appear to have been lost with the removal of camping from the public documentation.

I can't find the archived version of them right now, but I'll check it out later.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 1 2007 12:20 AM EST

Would it be easy to separate the exp spawns from the regular store updates?

QBOddBird December 1 2007 1:19 AM EST

Of course, NS.

Nobody knows the rules because they aren't written down and, of course, we don't pay attention enough to learn them.


And the admins neeever warn us. They always just fine us and call us names, like you said.


Please. Grow up.

Windwalker December 1 2007 2:10 AM EST

I would like to hear something on the ones who have no SoD and buy up all the exp. shot just to sell at auction ? Should there be some kind of penalty for that. I think you would not have that particular trickery ( forcing exp.shot ) going on if only SoD owners got the shot.

Ulord[NK] December 1 2007 2:18 AM EST

I buy exp shots when I see them in store (rarely). I sell them for a nice quick profit. I do not use a SoD or any weapon for what matters. Is that unfair? Hardly. I don't get to have those EB and that AoF that is central to my strategy simply because I use them. I have to pay market price for them and a hefty premium at that. Why should SoD user get the essential piece of their strategy for a fixed price from store that is under market value determined by supply and demand?

Solution? Spawn exp shots in auction and there will be no more arbitrage and all exp shots will sell at market price like they should be.

AdminNightStrike December 1 2007 11:38 AM EST

"Nobody knows the rules because they aren't written down"

Exactly. Glad you understand.

This thread is a great example -- some people say it's a rule, some don't. Some say it's perfectly fine, some say it's absolutely wrong. Heck, even the admins aren't always all on the same page. When Talion was doing this, I asked G, bart, and SNK, and got three totally different answers from each of them (bart actually told me that he didn't think it was even possible).

Why is having a page with rules such a horrible thing? Why are so many people supportive of hiding information like this? Why would you rather have ambiguity in what is allowed and what is not?

Talion December 1 2007 11:41 AM EST

I just want to make it clear that when I was warned, it was done in a very professional and courteous manner. Since I joined CB, I have never seen the admins act un-professionally.

I think that the problem with Explosive Shots is just the ambiguous way in which users can intentionally or un-intentionally trick the store into generating the ammo they need.

QBRanger December 1 2007 2:19 PM EST

Talion,

I am glad you had great experiences with admins.

In the past, however, my interactions with some have not been as pleasant. Others have experience the same.

The current crop of admins, however, are outstanding.

yoyo December 9 2007 1:01 AM EST

There are currently a lot of people who are exploiting this. I am not one to call people out, so I won't. However, it may need to be looked at. If exshots are suppose to be quasi rare then the current action by unnamed people are circumventing the nature of the item. I hope something is done. It makes sense to either flood the exshots into the market like the other ammo, or have it spawn on its own random timer not tied to the purchase of other ammo. It does little good to "force" people to play in the gray area of the game. Any system that breeds dishonest actions is detrimental to the CB community. I do not use exshots so I do not really care. Like I stated though I hope a fix is done so that there can be no questions or accusations over something as small as ammo. I can definitely see a future where strife is caused because a fix action was not implemented fast enough. especially when you see the amount of posts and replies that have popped up in the last month about this issue.

If any language in this post offended anyone, tuff. Game mechanics are there for a reason. Exploiting them is good for no one and only causes admins to do more work to fix a problem that should not exists and only does exist because people will not follow the rules.

Talion December 14 2007 3:08 PM EST

Please make them spawn in auctions...

Recent Store Transactions
User IP What When
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 sell 3,794 Iron Shots ($872) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,465 Explosive Shots ($732) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,225 Explosive Shots ($612) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,162 Explosive Shots ($581) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,065 Explosive Shots ($532) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,014 Explosive Shots ($507) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 774 Explosive Shots ($387) 1:49 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,441 Iron Shots ($331) 1:48 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,219 Iron Shots ($280) 1:48 PM EST
krasko [t] (Good Guy) 83.228.38.125 buy 1,134 Iron Shots ($261) 1:48 PM EST

j'bob December 14 2007 3:26 PM EST

THE FOLLOWING IS MERELY MY HUMBLE OPINION

A part of the problem as I see it is this, since the lift of the ammo cap (some) people have been buying as much of the type of ammo that they use as they can. Some because they have named ammo, some just to have a whole bunch cause it's fun. Either way, that seems fine. But, what if your type of ammo is IRON SHOT, well then you have a problem now. If you buy bulk lots that you know are going to spawn ex shot, are you supposed to just ignore it and let someone who doesn't use the ammo have it. Or are you just NOT supposed to buy in bulk, even tho all the other ammo users can.
Yes, I know some people are forcing the exshot who don't use it which is why I think it should go into to auctions OR as someone stated, spawn randomly or by measure of how much shot is USED, not bought.
Thank you for your attention.

j'bob December 14 2007 3:29 PM EST

Sorry bout the double up, just wanted to say that I also do recognize the difference between buying shot cause you use it and buying shot to get ex shot and reselling the regular shot.

Thanatos December 15 2007 7:51 AM EST

I was the problem, but was set strait.

I buy and use me iron shot and make money off the ex shot when it comes up.

There has been quite a bit posted on this and it is simple give warning
then reset a couple of them.

I was not even warned, but I did not even want to take a chance on being reset.

Problem solved

Thanatos December 15 2007 8:20 AM EST

Now I am double posting. Sorry also.

Can't believe I am saying this.
The way it is triggered should be changed to total ammo sold so anybody could trigger it being generated Jon would have to figure a number range and % that it would generate that way more chances for people that do not use it to get it an make some cb off it, or to try it.

I hope I made my thought on this comprehendable.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Hqy">Is it legal to make store generate Ex Shots?</a>