The not-so-great rescale of 2008 (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan December 5 2007 10:26 PM EST

To simplify things (especially the calculation of evasion), everything now costs exactly 12 exp to increase a stat by one point.

Stats have been rescaled to reflect this. Most characters will not notice much change. Players at the very top will see their stats rise a bit (because their cost-per-stat-point was higher); conversely, very new players will see their stats go down a bit.


TheHatchetman December 5 2007 10:27 PM EST


Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] December 5 2007 10:28 PM EST



Thank you for your time.

Hyrule Castle December 5 2007 10:28 PM EST

awesome 200k more higher lvl FB effect :)

Unappreciated Misnomer December 5 2007 10:31 PM EST


Flamey December 5 2007 10:35 PM EST

This change would make Mages deal more damage. As DD level affects damage greater than ST does.

I assume UC as well, but LeadenClaw is saying his UC went down quite a bit.

Flamey December 5 2007 10:36 PM EST

<OOB> ahahahahahaha, I just realized something hilarious!!!!
<{CB1}Slayer333> exp stays the same, Ulord :)
<OOB> All the Evasion and UC tables in the Wiki are WRONG now!
<[RonPaul08]LeadenClaw> how's that Ulord?
* OOB chortles
<[CB1]Meoman> awwwww
<Flamey> Why would you laugh at that
<[CB1]Gun> NS to the rescue?
<OOB> poor Nightstrike....
<[RonPaul08]LeadenClaw> lol
<Flamey> NS is probably killing himself

AbbathorX December 5 2007 10:37 PM EST

Is it an added 'feature' of this change that when I train it SUBTRACTS my xp from both the skill and my unspent xp pool?
I find this to be bad, very very bad.

Anyone else having this problem?

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] December 5 2007 10:39 PM EST

Happens for me as well :|

[LittleRed]Calynne December 5 2007 10:41 PM EST

It burns.....

AdminJonathan December 5 2007 10:46 PM EST

I can't find any problems with training.

There were some problems at first with incorrect levels being display while I finished updating the code but no exp would have been lost.

Flamey December 5 2007 10:47 PM EST

My max tat increased by about 700k and my tat didn't increase.

TheHatchetman December 5 2007 10:51 PM EST

Training is working fine for me...

Cube December 5 2007 10:52 PM EST

Everyone's archery is now screwed up =)

Colonel Custard December 5 2007 10:57 PM EST

It seems to me that Evasion has, for the most part, stayed at the same level of effect when this changed. Unarmed Combat, though, has gone down a bit. Does Evasion's level correlate more closely to the total EXP trained while UC correlates more to the raw trained level, which went down (for a lot of people) because of this? Or does it have to do with what was said about Mage vs. Tank damage changing, and Unarmed Combat being adjusted to balance with Tanks?

Lumpy Koala December 5 2007 11:00 PM EST

I don't know what you did... but I like it A LOT !!!

Unarmed Combat: 387 / 388

Armageddon December 5 2007 11:02 PM EST

basically it did this:

(all exp) / 12

Flamey December 5 2007 11:03 PM EST

Lumpy, what was it before?

Lumpy Koala December 5 2007 11:05 PM EST

I forgot, but it's less than 170 for sure.

Talion December 5 2007 11:08 PM EST

How long did everyone have to look at their characters before everything was disabled? I didn't have any time to look at mine yet. :(

lostling December 5 2007 11:13 PM EST

oh crap be prepared for more single minion strats -.-

AdminJonathan December 5 2007 11:13 PM EST

There was a train bug. It is fixed now, and we had a mini-rollback to fix the people who had lost exp to it.

lostling December 5 2007 11:23 PM EST

errm was the max tattoo adjusted?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 5 2007 11:28 PM EST

nice, seems to have fixed my training and equipping taking so, so long. woot!

YOU December 5 2007 11:28 PM EST

so the level of tattoo just got shot up as well. nice :D

BootyGod December 5 2007 11:30 PM EST

Umm... Jon.... No one will ever beat ranger now, rofl. His tat is simply too large :P

lostling December 5 2007 11:33 PM EST

tattoos play an even larger part now... so TATTOOS > ROE at least what i think

QBOddBird December 5 2007 11:33 PM EST

You do know that Little Devil's is *RIGHT* with it, do you not?

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 5 2007 11:41 PM EST

Gah my Junction's all screwed up... oh well it's probably not as bad as other people's problems but still...

Relic December 5 2007 11:44 PM EST

Nice, Evasion just got borked because mine dropped a ton, while the pth on opponent teams stayed the same or went up via the Tattoo pump.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 5 2007 11:46 PM EST

My Junction is hosed...

Why did max tat go up as well?

lostling December 5 2007 11:47 PM EST

maybe the curves should be made less steep?evasion UC and stuff?

Relic December 5 2007 11:48 PM EST

Tattoo level is based on exp, most tattoos have exp, so it either raised or lowered tattoos. I love how + on weapons stayed the same and Evasion got a huge nerf and DD spells got a huge boost.

lostling December 5 2007 11:49 PM EST

tell me again how evasion got nerfed because as an evasion user myself im kinda lost =x

Relic December 5 2007 11:52 PM EST

Evasion increases at a rate similar to UC. Because a huge amount of exp has to be dumped into it before you even get to 12 points per trained level, the effective level went down a bunch. Thus making ToA's with higher pth, and other things that nullify Evasion all the more powerful.

lostling December 5 2007 11:53 PM EST

but above 12 wouldnt it give you more levels for the same exp? then making it easier to hit the later break points?

Relic December 5 2007 11:55 PM EST

If you are a super high MPR character, it could in fact give you a boost, but since 8 is the min and 15 is the max per point, the weighting was biased toward the lower end.

yoyo December 5 2007 11:55 PM EST

Will there be a free retrain along with this. My junction is way off and it is going to take at least a few days to to get it back to 1.0. I know a few days does not seem like much but one day in a NUBs life is like 9 days to a person who has played for 3 years. Therefore, even if it takes me 4 days to get my junction fixed it is similar to someone taking the entire month of February to fix a skill. That seems a bit much to ask. Thanks for your time.

PS I have never been around for a changemonth so if one free retrain is standard please disregard my post.

lostling December 5 2007 11:57 PM EST

put it this way everyone is affect so i dont think a free retrain is in order :)

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 5 2007 11:58 PM EST

It's not standard, but I'd really like one too for the same reason. Probably archers are annoyed as well right after the Archery nerf too =P

yoyo December 5 2007 11:59 PM EST

Yes, why not give everyone one free retrain to be used in the next 36 hours, or something similar to that.

DH December 6 2007 12:00 AM EST

when did this so called archery nerf occur?

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 6 2007 12:02 AM EST

September 2007, when archery had to be trained to 1/3 of ST

DH December 6 2007 12:13 AM EST

oh right...i knew of that...i thought there was another secret one that wasnt showing up on my radar :P

TheHatchetman December 6 2007 12:28 AM EST

In DD-related news;

"Juggernaut's Cone of Cold hit Cold guy [4253855]"

Mikel December 6 2007 12:31 AM EST

Interesting, my archery just dropped from 1.0 to 0.93.. *sighs another week spent having to train nothing but archery when I was pumping nothing but DM.
The last nerf to archery took me about 3 weeks to get it back up to 1.0

SNK3R December 6 2007 12:37 AM EST

Lame. Still waiting for the NUB bonus to forging to be cut out, or a bonus to veteran forgers, or some sane fix.

Down with fighting!

yoyo December 6 2007 12:38 AM EST

I have not done all of the math yet, but I am pretty sure this will effect the actual gain that stat boosting items will give. Hence, throwing off the PR weight system on those items. I am not sure if this was taken into account. I am sure there are people who play the game that are better at math than me. Therefore, if anyone figures out how this will effect some items please post it.

Dark Dreky December 6 2007 12:51 AM EST

Change PR weights!! Woooo!

Evasion was definitely nerfed. New scale for the (#) it looks like.

yoyo December 6 2007 12:59 AM EST

I also just realized that since items will be giving different effective bonuses shifting the way PR weight on items is compared to actual effect the challenge bonus is not altered. Moreover, people that were right under the 12 point range and were fighting right over the 12 point range just had a wider margin open between them and their opponents.

This change has effected almost every aspect of CB. With the effect on PR weight it effects all aspects of combat and the economy. With the way it benefits larger points in single stats it effects almost all strategies.

I really believe we will not truly understand all of the effects this had on the fame for a few weeks, but I imagine that the effects will be greater then first thought or anticipated.

AdminShade December 6 2007 1:01 AM EST

Nice, needed to retrain lots of things to match each other though :/

TheHatchetman December 6 2007 1:01 AM EST

"Therefore, if anyone figures out how this will effect some items please post it."

Stats with a lot of XP into them now gain more boost from stat-boosting items.That is how it will be effected. Changing PR weight doesn't make any sense though, as you still gain roughly the same amount of effective XP from the items as before. While the numbers may be higher, the XP will be the same. Seeing as XP dictates MPR, then nothing has really changed in reguards to PR/MPR...

Lumpy Koala December 6 2007 1:02 AM EST

So... can someone give me some idea what's the evasion effect versus level look like now?

Here's my UC:

Raw level : 2,216,205
Raw effect : 113

Lumpy Koala December 6 2007 1:06 AM EST

Also I could have sworn Jon nerfed UC's level to effect. Coz my raw effect was 115 when I was 1.9mil level before rescale. Now when my level goes up, the raw effect went down....

So why nerf UC? :(

QBOddBird December 6 2007 1:15 AM EST

I totally agree with the others.

We should all get a 90-day free retrain and reintroduce the 5 best old supporter items, but for FREE.

That should satisfy everyone.

Oh, and now I gotta figure out how to fix my stats back up how I like 'em. Hmmmmm.....

QBRanger December 6 2007 1:33 AM EST

Well that takes away 1 argument mages used to have.

Now to get my stats to nice even numbers again and fix archery.

horseguy001 December 6 2007 1:33 AM EST

This change is great, since all my NCB stats were getting in the 14 and 15 point range, which was really bogging me down :D

QBRanger December 6 2007 1:42 AM EST

For my large EC I was spending 16 xp per level.

AdminNightStrike December 6 2007 1:52 AM EST

"<OOB> ahahahahahaha, I just realized something hilarious!!!!
<{CB1}Slayer333> exp stays the same, Ulord :)
<OOB> All the Evasion and UC tables in the Wiki are WRONG now!

It's not hilarious, OB.....

Flamey December 6 2007 2:50 AM EST

NS, nothing of my evasion changed. The effects (raw and bonus affected) and levels stayed the same. Possibly because I was near the 12 per point? I don't know. But it didn't changed at all. I was at 480k Evasion before the rescale.

three4thsforsaken December 6 2007 3:03 AM EST

haha, I was just getting the hang of things, then this! xD

any news on RoBF changing?

QBJohnnywas December 6 2007 3:42 AM EST

Interesting change. Nice bigger tattoo, nice bigger physical stats. More damage. And my evasion doesn't appear to be working under par either.

I'm happy with this. ;)

QBJohnnywas December 6 2007 4:09 AM EST

But how is this "The not-so-great rescale of 2008" when it's only December 2007? Is there more to come? ;)

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] December 6 2007 4:58 AM EST

Sounds like this change made single minion RoBF characters even more powerful than before.

Wasp [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] December 6 2007 5:02 AM EST

Good change.

chuck1234 December 6 2007 7:43 AM EST

"Sounds like this change made single minion RoBF characters even more powerful than before."

That's because the max tat lvl too has risen; it would've risen that much more in higher mpr characters, granting higher evasion and AMF effect, apart from the increase in the rune's direct dmg in melee.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 6 2007 7:51 AM EST

Actually I will have to correct you there Chuck... I have the third largest evasion in the game and I can say that it dropped 3 points in effect... from 205 yesterday to 202 today. I will chalk it up to the Skill effect items I use... only because my Raw level did not change one bit. And thats not to say my Raw levels didn't go up... it went up from 2.3 mil to 2.7 mil

Talion December 6 2007 8:34 AM EST

Argh! My strategy just took a hit.

A whole bunch of ToA users I was slowly gaining ground on with my EC just got a boost. My EC got a boost too, but compared to the ToA/DX/ST combined boost, it was lower.

Targets I was 50K away from completely nullifying are now still 150K to over 400K ahead of me. Oh well. I guess that's how the dice rolled. 50% lucky rewarded users, 50% unfortunate penalized users.

I think this change will be a good thing. It will give bored veterans new things to think about.

Those new 6M+ level tattoos are totally scary.

Talion December 6 2007 8:41 AM EST

Forgot to write this...

Most annoying thing (for me at least): My raw levels do not have nice rounds numbers anymore. It's killing me inside. Time will fix this, but I will gain a few gray hairs in the process.

My raw levels look like Oprah Winfrey on a bad hair day right now.

yoyo December 6 2007 9:11 AM EST

Before the change I had a raw level evasion of 88 and an effect of 102, almost 103. I have fought about 500 fights since the change and I now have a raw level of 89 and an effective level of 101. My items still way the same PR but are giving me a much smaller bonus.

Talion December 6 2007 9:15 AM EST

"My items still way the same PR but are giving me a much smaller bonus."

The effect will be the opposite as you character gets bigger.

Phoenix [The Forgehood] December 6 2007 9:59 AM EST

No.... Gimme my levels back.. :(

rofl :P

Man, the spell-checker is really annoying.. It made me add this extra stuff that I don't need to say..

QBsutekh137 December 6 2007 10:03 AM EST

Some anecdotal observations:

Larger minions benefit from this a bit.

Previously, just last week, I did a fight series against dudemus character "igot noname". I won half the battles or so, IIRC, but drew and even lost the rest.

Today, I just won 9 out of 10, with 1 draw. My big fireball went from a base of 3.5 million to 4.15 million, so I do just that much more damage now. There was a LOT of experience in that FB, so it really went up. My tattoo grew a lot too.

I did the same thing with another character previously removed from my fight-list: Failure. Not sure how much I could win before (maybe half on a lucky day), but I drew and lost enough to him that he was also off my list. Today O won 7 out of 10, drew the rest. Still enough to keep him off my list, but I gained some as far as I can tell.

Finally, Conundrum -- he still beats me every time.

I have not tried the remaining three or four people not on my list (folks in Battle Royale, basically), but since two of those have even larger tattoos than me, I imagine their ToEs keep pace with my extra damage enough that they still dominate me.

But I can definitely say I got to add someone to my list without removing anyone.

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] December 6 2007 10:10 AM EST

"That's because the max tat lvl too has risen; it would've risen that much more in higher mpr characters, granting higher evasion and AMF effect, apart from the increase in the rune's direct dmg in melee. "

Not just that. Since you have only one minion and you only need to train three things for your typical build (HP, Evasion, AMF), the XP is very focused in a single RoBF character, which means they benefit even more from this change as it benefits very high skill levels most of all. So every aspect of a single minion RoBF character has been boosted significantly.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 6 2007 10:31 AM EST

And again I say "'bout time lesser minion count teams got something actually useful over higher minion count teams". ;)

I suppose the next change will be to buff some auras or some such to keep the multi minion teams dominant. :P

QBJohnnywas December 6 2007 10:34 AM EST

Single minions FTW

drudge December 6 2007 1:05 PM EST

im totally in a panic; omj!

YOU December 6 2007 1:37 PM EST

Isn't it almost always that Max Tattoo level should be greater than your MPR?
Here is what mine looks like:
PR / MPR: 94,059 / 68,737 Max tattoo: 66,463

CmdrHawkeye December 6 2007 1:46 PM EST

This just seems like it helps the people who are in the 1 million scores and hurts everyone else, if your score is over a mill you really don't need the help I really don't agree with this but honestly i doubt anyone cares what i think. having all my stats drop by 3000 is a big change for me I don't play alot but ive been playing for like 3 years and to see alot of my work just get washed away is bull. doesn't matter if my xp is there the work i put into it has been wasted and for that i feel gipped.

Dark Dreky December 6 2007 2:07 PM EST

Dude, start an NCB. You could pass your current character in a week! =)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 6 2007 4:06 PM EST

this may be the best christmas ever! it is so nice to be able to hit the train button and have it finish in mere seconds as opposed to several minutes.

thanks for fixing the evasion training bug jon. you can stop with the changes now though. :)

AdminShade December 6 2007 4:27 PM EST

Perhaps a thing hardly anybody has thought of but:

How does this effect the smallest of smallest among us, the just starting people?

Do they have a harder time now, or does this change hardly affect them because every one of them has the same 'problem' now that every point costs more...?

Does the tutorial have to be rewritten again (or rather still) ?

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 4:37 PM EST

This will drastically affect tournament strategy. Before, if you had a wall of some sort, you can throw on a good 20k exp into str and dex and have some pretty beefy return due to low initial exp cost. This is no longer possible.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 6 2007 4:53 PM EST

Shades point is good... now a 1 pr char has to gather 96 XP to begin to train DD...

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 4:55 PM EST

That's not true novice. Base dd costs 12 exp to train right now, excluding Decay of course.

AdminShade December 7 2007 1:06 AM EST

So they start at 1 efficiency?

TheHatchetman December 7 2007 1:10 AM EST

lvl 21

Mikel December 9 2007 5:08 PM EST

With this change, would it be too much to ask for Archery to be changed back to 1/4 ST required to maintain 1.0 instead of the current 1/3?

Tattoo's grow so much faster now, and junction and BL could possibly use a little help here as well.

Just food for though, flame away!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 9 2007 5:15 PM EST

/me and my .23 BL agrees ^_^

AdminShade December 9 2007 6:51 PM EST

My 0.6 BL doesn't object.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 9 2007 6:55 PM EST

My 0.87 Junction and my 13% lose/stale rate concurs.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 9 2007 7:28 PM EST

uh no, high str and dex are cheaper now so that compensates lose in skill

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 9 2007 7:36 PM EST

Then give us a free retrain so we can balance the strats that rely on Junction or other skills/stats to work ^_^

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 8:20 PM EST

nov retrained, so you guys can deal with it too if its that necessary... otherwise, deal with the missing points to your skills, or switch to AoF, EB, EG, and/or EC...

"You can't count on anything in CB to be concrete"
-most of the people in CB...

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 8:41 PM EST

and Fanta, your Junction would go up to 1.08-1.09 (if it were possible :P) If you'd only equip the EBs in your inventory...

Mikel December 9 2007 9:40 PM EST

That's nice Hatchet, but it doesn't solve the problem of the rapid Tattoo growth that will be happening from here on out and having to maintain that skill trained up to get the full effect.

Let's look at this from another angle:
Before my tattoo grew at 14 exp per level, while my archery was at 12 exp per, now with both at 12 exp per level, I will need to spend even more exp in the long run to keep my stat at 1.0. The same with everyone else who has to train Junction/BL/Archery.

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 9:43 PM EST

"the problem of the rapid Tattoo growth"

look what you just said...

"I will need to spend even more exp in the long run to keep my stat at 1.0."

But less XP on your ST and DX which were costing you 15 or 16?

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 9 2007 9:56 PM EST

Right Hatch :) Thanks for those

Mikel December 9 2007 10:09 PM EST

Maybe it's time to switch strategies cause I'm not overly enjoying the road this one is taking anymore.

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 11:51 PM EST

Look on the bright side... Can't get nerfed much firther (within reason...)

QBOddBird December 10 2007 12:33 AM EST

Yeah, you should be a single mage instead Mikel ;'D

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 10 2007 10:25 AM EST

I guess this makes hitting up slightly more difficult

AdminNightStrike December 13 2007 1:42 PM EST

A while ago tattoos were rescaled to apply a curve fit to the level:xp ratio, since calucating their actual level based on XP was too expensive server wise. Will this change remove the need for that curve-fit approximation?

QBOddBird December 13 2007 2:08 PM EST

Good point, NS...I had totally forgotten about that!

AdminJonathan December 13 2007 5:25 PM EST

> Will this change remove the need for that curve-fit approximation?

it's already gone.

Yukk December 13 2007 6:45 PM EST

Yes, Rubberduck, it does. Now someone with 2x the EXP is twice as powerful instead of somewhat less. This doesn't matter so much for people in the top 20 or so, but those below the gap will likely have a much harder time crossing it.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002IGF">The not-so-great rescale of 2008</a>