Does BL need a boost? (in General)


QBRanger May 7 2008 8:08 AM EDT

Looking at the xp trained I find BL is the red headed stepchild.

Less xp trained then even UC!.

I posted about this before but will do it again to keep up the discussion.

Why?

1) BL has to wait till melee to start to work.

2) With ENC it is far better to put the xp into strength. While BL does add 1/4 the ENC of Str, Str gives more damage and much higher ENC. Thereby letting you carry more armor and have the option to use both a missile and melee weapon.

3) ENC. While ENC is a great thing for CB, it causes problems. These have been discussed before. However one thing with BL needs to be addressed. Tanks need much higher strength then before. To carry a weapon with high enough + to try to attempt to possibly maybe hit evasion. But that needs more ENC=more str=more xp needed into BL.

Most of the people playing tanks near the top, and I only can reference those for now, have boosted their strength to try to use their weapons and armors. Therefore they do not have all that xp to put into BL. More str=higher BL needed.

I propose that BL get a boost. How about adding PTH to its effect?

Rational discussions welcome. Flames to be avoided.

AdminNightStrike May 7 2008 8:11 AM EDT

Adding PTH would blur the line greatly between UC and BL.

Perhaps the effect could just be changed entirely to only supply PTH.

Usul [CHOAM] May 7 2008 8:22 AM EDT

if BL adds PTH, why train UC ?

Actually why does so many people train UC in the first place?

QBRanger May 7 2008 8:28 AM EDT

UC will work without weapons.

BL will boost ones weapon.

The PTH that BL would give would be much much less then the PTH of UC. At least in my mind of what BL would and should do. IE, at a level UC gives (200), I would have BL give somewhere in the neighborhood of (25-30).

Personally, I would take more PTH then damage for the BL skill.

QBJohnnywas May 7 2008 8:29 AM EDT

GL brought up adding AC to evasion the other day. I thought it might be better to give it some endurance, especially if you're lowering it's usefulness against PTH.

So perhaps instead of PTH - which UC has, you could add endurance to bloodlust. Kind of the opposite way to the way it used to work, when you took more damage. Make bloodlust a skill for the larger less dextrous tank, the barbarian who can take more punishment during a fight. The higher the bloodlust, the higher the endurance, the less damage the tank takes, the longer he/she lives to do maximum damage.

And you would be able to boost that effect through AoF.....

QBRanger May 7 2008 8:35 AM EDT

JW,

Not a bad idea, but I cannot see yet another level of damage reduction.

Right now with the TOE, it is hard enough for mages to do damage, esp to TOE tanks. Which almost all melee tanks are right now. For obvious reasons.

I am trying to make a counter to the uberiffic evasions that are coming up, if not already here, RE: Oxcha. Evasion minions with tons of evasion AND tons of HP. It takes me 4 consecutive hits to kill his evasion minion. Given the TOE/AC damage reduction.

Giving melee tanks a method to increase their PTH without CB wouild be a great counter to the evasion skill. Either make a new skill with that ability or change BL to do it.

Right now missile tanks, who almost always use a TOA, can boost their PTH cheaply by raising the PTH on their arrows. At a 3:1 benefit.

Melee tanks have no such method other then boost their weapon's PTH. How about a skill to do it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 8:38 AM EDT

"Therefore they do not have all that xp to put into BL. More str=higher BL needed."

can the user-friendly aof not be used now to super boost bl and more efficiently use xp as evasion minions do?

AdminNightStrike May 7 2008 8:41 AM EDT

You mention the TOA. I think TOA+BL will become as RBF+Evasion.

The real fix is to reduce evasion if evasion is the problem. For some reason, the trend lately around here has been to buff one thing to compensate for a pre-existing over-buff. Evasion was buffed because of insane ranged damage (which is a dumb counter anyway). Reduce it accordingly, and then re-evaluate BL.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 8:49 AM EDT

If you get rid of the damage bonus to BL, you open the door for Dual Wielding... :/

I wouldn't mind adding some PTH to BL, if you bring back it's drawback.

Add back taking increased damage, a trade off for dealing more damage (which is what PTH is, in essence).

Which makes it different to UC. BL would need cash spent on a weapon, lets you hit harder but you take more in return. Where as UC would make you harder to hit, and take less damage.

Ancient Anubis May 7 2008 9:26 AM EDT

Blood lust a melee boosting skill here's an idea

Now i picture a big [admin edit]:unpg brute with fangs eg vampire.

Lets make it Bl must be trained to 30% ST its effect would then be to increase damge by 50%, boost va effect on minion by 10% and provide ST and DX that is unaffected by ec to the value of 20% of original st and dx

it may not overcome evasion heaps but the extra st and dx would be handy, along with the va effect and extra damage

Drama [Just for fun] May 7 2008 9:27 AM EDT

Or maybe add splash damage.

QBOddBird May 7 2008 10:54 AM EDT

Nightstrike: both -were- reduced accordingly. Ranged damage received a huge nerf, and Evasion did shortly thereafter IIRC. I could check changelogs, but I'm tired.

I still think the problem is that after Evasion got its buff, AoF was introduced, and now anyone who puts it on can fairly easily achieve ~95% increase to Evasion with other Elven gears, whilst the max a tank can boost its DX is by EG/EB/EC up to a max of probably around ~50%.

A skill named Evasion *should* evade tanks, but it shouldn't be capable of outpacing the tanks. If a tank dedicates itself to beating Evasion, that should still be possible.

QBRanger May 7 2008 11:31 AM EDT

Dude,

The AoF can certainly be used on a tank to boost BL. However it still does not let tanks hit super duper elevated evasion.

NS,

I do not know of any tank that can be TOA and be melee only. Yes, someone can use the SoD with the TOA and then use BL. I have stated my opinions on the SoD already. Those still stand.

And rent stated some other points on the thread above.

I would prefer evasion to get its proper nerfage, however, I do not see it happening. As a counter to the present situation, letting BL give PTH would be a nice counter.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 12:03 PM EDT

"Dude,

The AoF can certainly be used on a tank to boost BL. However it still does not let tanks hit super duper elevated evasion. "

in my rock ~ paper ~ scissors thread i am discussing this precise thing. as far as i can tell, dd is the counter to evasion, not bloodlust nor should it be as evasion is the counter to physical damage. i guess i just question the fact that we now seem to take it for granted that tanks should be able to hit evasion minions. if they could hit evasion minions, then what other counter is there for physical damage or is that what we are getting at with all of this? i do ask all of these things in my other thread and will look forward to any input there as well as here.

Wasp [Demon Forging] May 7 2008 12:05 PM EDT

No more splash damage, thats annoying enough as it is. How about lowering the amount of exp BL actually needs. Maybe to 1/6th of strength, or maybe lower? That would in theory solve some of the problem?

QBOddBird May 7 2008 12:10 PM EDT

I like the idea of putting BL back where it was, a damage vulnerability in exchange for 120% damage.

BoNE already does some mad awesome damage, imagine it with a ToE helping cover for the damage vulnerability and BL boosting it that much.

Rent hits foolish opponent for [6,023,482]
foolish opponent cries "owmygod the HAL is AWESOME!"
Rent wins

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 12:47 PM EDT

"A skill named Evasion *should* evade tanks, but it shouldn't be capable of outpacing the tanks. If a tank dedicates itself to beating Evasion, that should still be possible. "

And what happens when an Evader dedicated to dodging Tanks meets a Tank dedicated to beating Evasion?

lostling May 7 2008 12:51 PM EDT

you would probably see a high dex tank as a tank delicated to beating evasion... personally i dont see ANY around

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 12:55 PM EDT

Because DEX sucks compared to STR, when you can get more Tank based STR bosting items and use PTH on your weapon. ;)

Plus your natural DEX is never gonna beat the Elven + AoF Evasion, so why bother?

Either BBQPWN those no Evasion minions with McUber STR and a PTH weapon high enough to allow multiple hits, or find other targets. ;)

QBRanger May 7 2008 2:07 PM EDT

So as in Draco's case, evasion wins?

As others have said, there is no counter to evasion.
One can use a TOA but even then, look at Mikel. He is at the out reaches of stalemating Draco. Some more xp into evasion (getting over 100% bonuses) and it will be stalemate city.

And for a tank to concentrate on dex, pfft. Then they will have less strength and therefore little ENC and no ability to carry nice weapons/armors.

But, this is just my view. I will now check out Dude's thread.

Herbstwind [The Knighthood] May 7 2008 4:40 PM EDT

why not let BL add to your max encumberance like it was a stat (100% of trained exp instead of 25%) or something like that.. so you could add PTH on the weapons used but still having a cash sink by doing so.

AdminNightStrike May 7 2008 6:48 PM EDT

"I do not know of any tank that can be TOA and be melee only."

My TOA+BL = RBF+Evasion remark was reflecting on what would happen if BL added PTH. The BL would add PTH, the TOA would add PTH, and it would wind up being a massive amount of PTH (which might actually make melee tanks better)

It was not reflecting on the current state.

QBRanger May 7 2008 7:16 PM EDT

BL's plus to PTH would only apply to melee rounds of course.

And of course, one can make the BL PTH not add to a TOA's PTH if it is too much.

But there are no BL/TOA tanks I can see right now. Perhaps in the future, but most TOA tanks use the SoD or archery skill.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 7 2008 8:03 PM EDT

No BL does not need a boost, you get 60% more melee damage and with all those big melee weapons out there and those massive STR, it would cry out overpowered sooner then anything else. It is good as it is now.
Its a small investment of 1/5 str to get 60% more damage.

three4thsforsaken May 7 2008 8:04 PM EDT

I always thought the boost to damage from BL was always on the large side. Adding 60% damage on top of everything is possibly the biggest damage booster in the game. Although you loose str, the amount lost from str does not add up to less than all the elements of damage (str and X) times 160%.

With ToA, it is a great way to increase damage.

But in the end it doesn't matter if you hit, but making a skill that adds PTH is in danger of forcing every tank to train it. I would much rather have another evasion nerf than a BL boost.

QBRanger May 7 2008 8:59 PM EDT

Then people,

Explain to me why very few tanks use BL.

It is the least trained skill in all of CB land, even less trained then UC.

If it is that great with the 60% boost to damage, why is not every non-TOA tank using it?

I can tell you why-It is a waste of xp!!.

Running a tank, I can tell you 100% that ENC is a problem. I have to have my strength so freaking high to use my MH to try to possibly maybe on the off day hit evasion minions. When I unlearned archery, I pumped my HP and strength and now can barely use my armors and MH. In fact, I had to drop my MSB since I was over the limit.

There is no way that a tank should ever use BL. Just pump up the HP and strength and dexterity instead of diluting you xp even further.

For the 60% damage, I would rather put the xp into strength and use a better weapon.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 7 2008 9:24 PM EDT

I think it's more of an issue that if tank users have a free slot to train BL, they'd much rather go with evasion, seeing how effective it is.

QBOddBird May 7 2008 9:47 PM EDT

JS hits the nail on the head.

I had a single melee tank (Hejin) and I really, really loved it. Evasion was just too good to pass up though and I sacrificed the damage for the better fightlist.

BL is great though, I was hitting well over 1.2M damage/blow with my BoNE on an 800k MPR character.

QBRanger May 8 2008 12:10 AM EDT

Exactly JS!!

Which is why BL needs a boost to make it more useful.

Then non archer tanks can decide-more damage with more PTH vs evasion and not getting hit. A decision of sorts. Each better then no skill most of the time.

But JS hit the nail on the head:

Tanks who do not need archery will choose either evasion or no skill over BL. That says a lot about how useful it currently is. I am proposing making it more useful vs the one things tanks cannot stand. Not uber useful but somewhat and hope Jon can titrate it out.

QBOddBird May 8 2008 12:24 AM EDT

Hmmmm...I disagree.

Just because one skill is decidedly too good does not mean the other needs to be buffed up to match it.

QBOddBird May 8 2008 12:25 AM EDT

Also, I would choose BL over no skill.

Hitting 1M instead of 600k, especially with a vampiric weapon, is very useful. Far more so than a little more ST.

Then again, I don't sit on the brink of my ENC.

TheHatchetman May 8 2008 12:26 AM EDT

using ST to increase damage as opposed to BL also helps heaps against EC...

QBRanger May 8 2008 1:09 AM EDT

I would gladly trade a bit of damage vs ENC overload and less vulnerability to Ethereal Chains.

With 20% more strength one can do a bit more damage, and carry a lot more armor/weapon.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 8 2008 1:18 AM EDT

A bit of damage? 60% vs. something in the neighborhood of 10% is an awful lot more.

QBRanger May 8 2008 1:24 AM EDT

If you cannot carry your weapon and keep your str/dex up, it does not matter how much damage you do. You may never hit.

There are quite a few EC's out there that make my tank go into ENC overload.

For me, and quite a few other tanks I know, spending xp on BL is not a good idea. Pumping strength and dexterity are the only frugal ways to try to keep up with EC, ENC and evasion.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 8 2008 1:28 AM EDT

It seems that the main problem with BL is ENC. If that is the case making it give the same amount of ENC as str would solve that problem. This would give the necessary boost to BL and make it much more viable.

Usul [CHOAM] May 8 2008 1:33 AM EDT

People don't use BL because they spent all their hard earned money into ranged weap for quick kill.

Also BL has less exp trained versus UC because they don't need that much trained to stay full effectiveness, only 20% of total STR.

Also with BL, you can upgrade lesser of x , and upgrade more of + to maintain equivalent damage, while having more PTH.

Lastly, ENC problem is a bane to all tanks, except UC who gets a bit of bonus, but their other equipments are still counted in total N/W, so no special argument here.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 8 2008 1:36 AM EDT

if the silly tanks don't use it, turn it into a mage skill and base it off of your dd! : )

QBOddBird May 8 2008 1:38 AM EDT

I find the argument that people don't try BL due to ENC to be rather thin, since people are quite willing to train Archery to use a second rate weapon (the bow, rather than the SoD.)

Especially since Archery just increases one weapon to normal accuracy and another to 90%, whereas BL is a LOT of free damage.

For this reason I tend to agree with Ryosuke's assessment.

QBRanger May 8 2008 9:31 AM EDT

Rent,

I am just typing about my experience with BL and my conversations with people who can, but do not use it.

If anyone out there has a tank with BL and would like to chime in, please do!!

But as one can see by the xp spent in BL, it is the least used skill in all of CB.
ENC and dexterity issues are the primary reason. People use archery to use the highest damage items in the game (ELB), or a seeking bow (MSB). But almost all people who use archery use the TOA which gives "free" dexterity and PTH. That is how they can "afford" to use a skill that requires a lot of xp.

BL tanks cannot use the TOA. At least I have not been able to make one work. This, of course, does not mean someone else cannot. Just I personally cannot find a right strategy to do it correctly.

It is less used then UC which says something.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 10:17 AM EDT

hmm, i finally took the time to look at this proposal a little more closely. you really should not compare xp trained for bloodlust to uc as an equal comparison. you want uc to be as high as possible for the diesired effect, with bloodlust you only want it trained to fractionally relative to strength.

it would probably be more appropriate to look in the other column, which is popularity. this shows the number of minions actually using the skill i believe and it tells a different story entirely.

QBRanger May 9 2008 10:39 AM EDT

I can see the UC comparison, however a "mini-tank" can use BL and not really spend any xp in it. Is that a true tank comparison?

Even if one uses the UC as stated above, BL is still very little used. Just look at the top 50 characters and see who uses it on their main/true tank.

QBRanger May 9 2008 10:41 AM EDT

I only count 2: Flamey and Nemesis.

There are at least 5 UC tanks in the top 50. So is UC used more? I think one can say that in the top 50 at least.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 11:14 AM EDT

That due to the reletive power (or lack of) of BL?

Or maybe the ease at competing in the top level, without requiring a NW massive weapon, that UC provides?

QBRanger May 9 2008 11:26 AM EDT

Like I have stated in the past, it certainly is due to the relative weakness of BL compared to the expenditure of xp into native strength/dexterity and HP. Who cares if you do x or 1.6x damage when you cannot hit evasion and cannot carry enough weapons/armors on your tank.

At least according to the numerous people I have conversed with about this exact subject.

It may certainly be different lower in the rank, however, by looking at the xp expenditure, it does not seem much different there.

UC is a good non NW skill for tanks. Very good in the lower ranks.

three4thsforsaken May 9 2008 11:31 AM EDT

there was Hatch's old strat with the Ringmaster, the main difference is he made no effort to get past evasion. He was set up to simply stale them, or have AMF kill the evasion on mages. And since he was using a VB, BL was actually an ideal choice.

QBRanger May 9 2008 11:54 AM EDT

Is it not a sad thing when tanks make no effort to take on evasion minions?

I know very soon there will be at least 10 minions I cannot possibly hit with all the bonuses I have to my tank. And these minion are on characters of much lower MPRs, some on 4 minion teams.

So why not give BL a boost to give tanks, if they want to spend the xp, a chance to try to hit evasion?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 12:22 PM EDT

Ranger, have you tried using full Elven gear, a ToA, natural Dex instead of STr and dis-ing your weapon to have a lower X and a larger + while still fitting under your ENC?

It might be that while Tanks *can* make the effort to take on Evaison, they just don't want to (Because it's easier not to bother), or want the higher X and STR to kill non evasion minions quicker.

AdminNightStrike May 9 2008 12:24 PM EDT

> Or maybe the ease at competing in the top level, without requiring a NW massive weapon, that UC provides?


"ease"??? ahhahahah

QBOddBird May 9 2008 12:26 PM EDT

That's what I feel too GL, with one slight difference - that extra 45% boost to Evasion from the AoF. Tanks can't match that.

Full Elvens = 60%ish
Full Elvens + AOF = 105%ish

Then again, the trend for tanks to simply avoid Evasion minions *is* the right one. After all, they're designed to evade the tanks. The problem is simply that it is too easy right now.

QBRanger May 9 2008 1:07 PM EDT

GL,

I have tried to use the TOA, but without a missile weapon (which I cannot use due to ENC factors), I cannot make it to melee rounds vs most mages. Yes, I can disenchant my MH and become yet another TOA archer/SoD user. What joy!!!! I feel Sut's pain right now about FB. And have asked for things in ranged to be changed to help FB mages who have gotten little love lately.

But as a TOA melee tank: NWO, Sut, and most decent level CoC mages rip right through me.

Now you can say that I want my cake and eat it also, however, why should I be forced to use a TOA and a missile weapon to hit evasion minions? Especially on a 4 minion character.

I thought choice was good, not bad.

So basically your saying that unless tanks use a TOA and missile weapon, they have to avoid evasion minions? That does not seem fair. Just imagine when a CoC mage puts a high level evasion minion in front. There will be no way tanks can beat or even stalemate them. Except perhaps myself as I have the largest TOE and MgS and AC character. But anyone else will certainly lose.

I am just waiting for LA to make one of his minions pure evasion, slap on a low NW AoF and some elven gear and make it impossible for me to touch it.

Is that what we want for CB? Not mageblender or even tankblender. But evasion blender?

I suspect Jon tried with the AOL to give tanks a little PTH boost, but the AOL fails miserably in most areas. That minion is damm hard to keep alive until melee making it only really useful for FB/MM mages and missile weapon users.

I am asking for a way for tanks, using xp and NOT NW to be able to try to keep up with evasion minions. Make BL give PTH. EIther that or take away the super uber dooper incredible outstanding incredulous AOF boost to evasion.

QBRanger May 9 2008 1:19 PM EDT

"It might be that while Tanks *can* make the effort to take on Evaison, they just don't want to (Because it's easier not to bother), or want the higher X and STR to kill non evasion minions quicker. "

O C'mon:

Lower str=lower ENC=lower weapon. The x on my MH is less then 45% of its total NW. I can lower my x by 5k and only save 40M in ENC. If I lower my str by 1/2 its natural level, I will be WAY over my ENC limit.

Then you suggest using BL which further takes Xp from strenght and dexterity. Making ENC overload. And making less xp to devote to dexterity.

Vicious cycle.

Right now there is no way for tanks, except perhaps TOA missile tanks, to possibly hit the higher evasions out there.

So are all tanks forced to be TOA? Seems you want that to occur.

But I have stated my case for BL, and numerous times in the past for the uberpowerfulness of evasion.

I hope the only person that matters is reading and will take actions to make the game better.

QBOddBird May 9 2008 1:44 PM EDT

I'm reading, Ranger, but I'm not sure what action you want me to take.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 2:45 PM EDT

at the top of the page showing skill popularity you can choose to filter for certain things. here is the popularity of skills for the top 10%.

Skill
Evasion 16.9%
Archery 7.2%
Unarmed Combat 2.1%
Phantom Link 9.6%
Junction 2.7%
Bloodlust 4.1%

QBRanger May 9 2008 2:55 PM EDT

And here is the xp spent in the top 10% of active characters:

Skill
Evasion 8.3%
Unarmed Combat 1.2%
Archery 1.1%
Junction 0.8%
Phantom Link 0.8%
Bloodlust 0.4%

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 3:02 PM EDT

but xp spent should be a smaller amount due to what i explained above. there is no benefit in going over the desired 1/5 strength is there?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 3:54 PM EDT

"Now you can say that I want my cake and eat it also,"

Yes. ;)

Because of;

"I have tried to use the TOA, but without a missile weapon (which I cannot use due to ENC factors), I cannot make it to melee rounds vs most mages."

What is it Ranger? You want to kill people in Ranged, But still want your MH to hit in Melee?

You want to be able to hit smaller characters with far larger Evasion that you're prepared to train against in Ranged? Or Melee? While not being able to be killed by CoC?

Or is it FB/MM you don't want to be killed by?

You can't make it into Melee rounds versus most mages. We'll start there.

Why?

Is it due to them killing you before you reach Melee? Is that due to you not having enough AMF (and you have a large EC?) Or not using enough Damage Layers (do you use a MGS?)?

Or is it because the Mages (notice no single minion uber RBF evaders mentioned) train so much Evasion, while *also* training thier DD (And HP to survive AMF backlashes), you can't kill them before they kill you?

What's the thrust of the problem you're stating here?

And how does it pertain to training Dex over STR, and using Elven Gear and a weapon under your ENC?

"however, why should I be forced to use a TOA and a missile weapon to hit evasion minions? Especially on a 4 minion character."

That's the way the game has been designed. Counters to abiities. you want to hit Evasion, you need to counter it. If someone goes all out to boost a single ability, you have to match them.

Equivalent Effort.

Or you can slide past that and train DD, which ignores Evaison totally. As someone recently made a thread about.

"Lower str=lower ENC=lower weapon."

Does GS cast be another member increase the ENC on all other minions?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 3:57 PM EDT

" suspect Jon tried with the AOL to give tanks a little PTH boost"

I suspect it was an attempt to depower the AoI and AoF. ;)

But the AoL just isn't good enough.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 9 2008 3:58 PM EDT

Yes, GS cast increases the enc on all members. I have had no problems with enc by using GS.

three4thsforsaken May 9 2008 3:59 PM EDT

I think a question worth asking is: what will happen if PTH had an MPR factor? If a skill could give PTH, what would happen? Is it a good thing?

It's a very very game changing concept.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 4:00 PM EDT

Then maybe 4 minion team need to start using their kill slot's differently and if running a large tank use GS to boost their Tanks ENC.

Yeah, even if DM can counter the GS...

/shrug

QBRanger May 9 2008 4:31 PM EDT

So those characters that use DM would eat up a GS enchanter. But who really cares? Not mages.

And I just want to be able to hit evasion minions, or have a chance to as a tank.

Right now there is no chance, even with all the NW of my MH, my EC and native dexterity.

And perhaps you misunderstood, with a TOA, I cannot live through missile vs FB mages and MM mages.

Yes, even with all the numerous layers of damage reduction. Including the AC and MgS.

QBOddBird May 9 2008 4:39 PM EDT

"And I just want to be able to hit evasion minions, or have a chance to as a tank.

Right now there is no chance, even with all the NW of my MH, my EC and native dexterity. "


Agreed - though a tank should normally be incapable of hitting Evasion minions, it ought still be a possibility should the tank devote itself to doing so.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 4:46 PM EDT

A Tank can. And realy, Ranger is admitting so.

A Tank *can* devote themselves to Dex, ToA and high PTH weapon, but it puts them at the mercy of FB/MM Mages.

That's cake and eat it time.

No one. Not a single person thought what SacredPeanut did with his four EC team verus Tanks was a bad thing. God use of tactics. Fighting up versus huge Tanks, and being eaten by much smaller mages.

You're good versus one, bad versus another.

You can dedicate all the XP you want to Evasion, and it helps you not one jot versus Mages.

You can dodge to stalemate the biggist Tanks with the uberest Evasion, and it's cool, becuase Mages will eat you alove.

That's how CB works.

QBRanger May 9 2008 4:47 PM EDT

By devotion do you mean train all dex and no hp/str?

Or be forced to use a TOA with its Str/dex boost and put a lot more xp into dexterity at the detriment of hp and skills?

Or have all enchanters train EC as well?

There has to be a point where a normal tank, using a nice weapon has a chance to hit evasion minions, even pure ones. Otherwise tanks are going to go the way of the dodo.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 4:50 PM EDT

"There has to be a point where a normal tank, using a nice weapon has a chance to hit evasion minions, even pure ones. Otherwise tanks are going to go the way of the dodo."

to make sure i understand your reasoning, if at some point rock can't beat paper, then rocks will cease to exist in the game of rock~paper~scissors?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 4:51 PM EDT

They do.

With a dex near to the Evasion (I know, I know AoF... I've alreadym and numerously advocated changing it to +2/-4...) and a PTH near to the Evasion effect...

QBRanger May 9 2008 4:59 PM EDT

GL,

Yet again,

How can a tank keep up with evasions defensive dexterity when the AOF has no tank correlate.

And how can a tank get a +200 weapon without USD? and carry it with ENC loads the way they are?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 5:03 PM EDT

And yet again;

1: I've mentioned AoF numerous times. You can stop bringing it back up. I agree it's out of wack and needs to be changed...

2: Fight longer and earn money in game?

3: On a single Tank, ENC isn't such a big deal. On multi minon teams, get used to smaller weapons, or use GS, maybe with your own AoF on the Tank, if a AoM won't provide a larger boost to STR. And use a ToA. Or a RoS onte GS minion, which probably wouldn't be as good, but it would give you some protection to DM.

Windwalker May 9 2008 5:08 PM EDT

Quote Ranger "I am asking for a way for tanks, using xp and NOT NW to be able to try to keep up with evasion minions". This is the aspect of the game for tanks that has truly gotten out of whack since the whole nerf ranged and put shackles on them with ENC. I don't know what the answer is but I do know when you can train one thing and win against much larger characters it's broke.After all wasn't that the same problem with ranged? Much smaller characters beating much larger characters by boosting one item.So now with ENC. tanks do need something for all the masses training nothing but evasion. Just let me know what it is so I can start hitting some of these big bad 20 HP (slight exaggeration) minions once in 20 rounds.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 5:11 PM EDT

"I don't know what the answer is but I do know when you can train one thing and win against much larger characters it's broke."

See SP and his 4 EC team ment to kill very much higher Tanks.. CB is about specilisation to 'expolit' weaknesses in other strats.

"After all wasn't that the same problem with ranged?"

No. It was that Ranged damage, by going first, 'exploited' everyone in the game, and nothing could stand a chance versus it. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 5:16 PM EDT

A couple of questions.

Doubling your STR doubles your Damage doesn't it? So if your Strength (S) gives you an amount of Damage (D), 2S = 2D?

Is ENC gain from STR linear? So if (like above) S = ENC then 2S = 2ENC?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 9 2008 5:18 PM EDT

ENC gain from str is linear. Damage from str is not.

Windwalker May 9 2008 5:18 PM EDT

GL" No. It was that Ranged damage, by going first, 'exploited' everyone in the game, and nothing could stand a chance versus it. ;) "Ahh now I see the difference with evasion.Excuse me.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2008 5:21 PM EDT

Ah! What I was thinking of was S+x = Damage and 2S+2x = 2Damage

So how much does STR increase damage by if x remains unchanged?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 5:26 PM EDT

i think 2s + 2x=2d=4s

that is what i remember anyways.

Soxjr May 9 2008 5:36 PM EDT

I'm sorry, but again another post about evasion that I don't want to get involved with because most people that think it's great and wonderful just say tanks are complaining, but I will show you where your flaws are.

There is NO WAY for a tank to fight the dx game. I personally can never get to a high enough dx mark to hit some of these evasions, and that is even using a ToA, when I had my over 3 mil lvl toa my DX was just 3.5 mil ... That's not even in close to where it would have to be to combat evasions in ranged.

You guys are talking of 5 mil trained lvl's ... some are up to what.. with elven and AoF up to about 6 or 7 mil lvl's... which in first round of ranged is about 9 mil defensive dx... that means I have to get over 10 mil dex, <120 mil trained xp> in one stat.. not including str, to hit em, and hp to live, ... and archery to still hit them... it is slowly coming to the point where I won't hit anyone. Oh and this is with a 220+ on a weapon. There is no way to play the dx game and the pth game and I have a solo minion and my enc is good, but I am already passed my weapon allowance so even if I wanted to add to my weapon it just makes my pr higher and my rewards lower. It's a losing battle. Plain and simple... This whole discussion would be fine if you only allow defensive dex from trained evasion not boosted evasion... but people think that won't work... but oh well. good thing i'm stubborn or there would be 1 less tank towards the top.

Oh and to prove tanks are going away.. top 10. <not including novice retired char> 6 mages and 4 tanks. with much more mages coming up and not many tanks. Just food for thought out there. The day is coming that tanks will learn they can't compete and it's either go DD or go RoBF if you want to hit someone. If that's what is wanted then I guess everything is just fine, otherwise something needs to change.

QBOddBird May 9 2008 5:58 PM EDT

"There has to be a point where a normal tank, using a nice weapon has a chance to hit evasion minions, even pure ones. Otherwise tanks are going to go the way of the dodo."


Wait wait wait, now THIS I disagree with.

There ought to be a way for a tank to beat an Evasion minion if he competes to beat it, yes.

There is no way in HELL a tank should be hitting a pure Evasion minion, because then you're asking for the skill to not do its job.

If you have a problem with the possibility of pure Evasion minions, take that up with the RoBF, but a pure Evasion minion SHOULD BE evading.

QBRanger May 9 2008 6:01 PM EDT

Well without the RBF, a pure evasion minion would be doing nothing.

By pure evasion minion, let us consider Dracos minion or other minions like that. On a multi minion character.

Should someone like that evade tanks completely over 30 rounds?

I sure hope not as if evasion is not changed, tanks will become a thing of the past.

QBRanger May 9 2008 6:02 PM EDT

Well at least melee tanks as missile tanks have the nice extra ability to get cheap PTH from ammo, something melee tanks do not have.

Soxjr May 9 2008 6:02 PM EDT

sorry. my post was in the wrong thread. Sorry. got confused.

QBOddBird May 9 2008 6:02 PM EDT

Thanks, that clarification was important.

QBRanger May 9 2008 6:06 PM EDT

Glad to help!

But Draco is certainly proving that evasion is no longer a 1 minion/RBF thing.

Once you get to a certain MPR, you can easily have a multi minion character devote 1 minion to evasion and neuter all tanks out there. At least all but the highest TOA USD tanks.

Once the effect gets over 220, there are only 1 or 2 weapons out there that high. And defensive dexterity outpaces a tanks dexterity as was shown/proven in many prior threads.

Certainly a tank can use Haste, or EC, but does the evasion minion have to? Nope, just continue to train evasion and the bonuses do enough.

QBOddBird May 9 2008 6:15 PM EDT

That is because DrAcO is at 3.6million MPR, I believe that makes him what you'd call a special case and puts him in league with weapons that size.

Yes, the AoF overinflates his Evasion. However, I disagree with the concept that Evasion on a normal given 4-minion team should be touchable by everyone....that's 1/4 of their experience plus boosts, and therefore I think that any opposing tank should have to put equivalent plus slightly more into DX in order to hit them.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 6:25 PM EDT

and he is reaching the curve cap for evasion at least as far as effect goes. see the other thread for more on this!

Tyriel [123456789] May 9 2008 6:37 PM EDT

"and he is reaching the curve cap for evasion at least as far as effect goes. see the other thread for more on this!"

There is a curve on PTH, as well, so that means nothing.

Anyways, back to Bloodlust...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 9 2008 6:39 PM EDT

exactly, and they are at very similar ranges. so does that make it a wash?

QBRanger May 9 2008 8:07 PM EDT

a weapon pth equal to evasions negative pth = 0 % cth. And a tank can not win the defensive dex vs offensive dex battle. so, do we need +300 weapons to hit? good luck trying to carry that nw beast. much less getting one there without usd, or even with.
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