Weird message or I missed something? (in General)


Little Anthony March 25 2009 11:36 PM EDT

Under Train stat i have this evasion as follows:
Evasion 105,262 109,648 (43) (43)
But then under battle stat: My evasion shows 35. What can be the factor here?
My NW equip is under allowance.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- March 25 2009 11:37 PM EDT

Ec?

SuperHD March 25 2009 11:44 PM EDT

easy one ! :)

corn = - 10%skill
BoF= minus 2 % skill
and mithril shield = - 4%skill

16% total evasion penalty

16% of 43 is about 7 evasion points loss.
43-7 = about 35...

is it it ?
or am i totally off the track?

MonkeyMandate [Wasting Time] March 25 2009 11:53 PM EDT

is it due to your DX not being i think 1/3 your evasion thus you suffer a penalty

QBRanger March 26 2009 1:18 AM EDT

LR is right.

Since your dexterity is base, your evasion is 60%.

105,262 x .60 is about 63k, which is (35)

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002X5s

QBRanger March 26 2009 1:22 AM EDT

Well it is truly:

19 + (105,243 x .6)

Since the 19 dexterity you have gives you the full effect of 19 levels of evasion. Everything else is at 60% effectiveness.

AdminShade March 26 2009 2:09 AM EDT

Or you should have checked this thread out:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002h3G

It also contains my confusion and a very thorough explanation on how and what...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 26 2009 4:27 AM EDT

no more dex requirement?

QBRanger March 26 2009 10:55 AM EDT

Since evasion does not give defensive dexterity, I think the dexterity requirement is overkill.

QBOddBird March 26 2009 11:01 AM EDT

I'd rather see Evasion overkill'd with requirements than overpowered again, personally. :P

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:15 AM EDT

The biggest problem I had with evasion was the defensive dexterity and the overboost it received from the AoF.

I personally see no reason not to have evasion give a 100% effect no matter what the dexterity of the minion is.

This is of course, without giving defensive dexterity. Normally trained dexterity can do that function.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 11:19 AM EDT

Then we're back to Mages having to train natural Dex to stand versus Tanks.

And in that case, Dex would need to actually provide an offensive benefit to Mages, or be utterly removed from the to hit mechanics.

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:23 AM EDT

Why GL?

Mages train:

DD, HP, evasion if they want.

Tanks train:

Str, HP, Dex, Skill (1/4-5th of str)

If they really want to avoid tanks, make them train dexterity.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 11:33 AM EDT

Becuase for Tanks that XP expenditure in Dex is a percentage increase in damage, and also the only defense versus dex based cth.

Yeah Mages train two stats, Tanks train 3.

But Tanks have the in built ability, actually requirement, to suppliment thier XP expenditure in two stats by NW directly.

And currently, there is *no* other defense to base CTH than training Dexterity. A stat that is a worthless XP waste on anyone who isn't a Tank. And Tanks hardly train much (compared to STR) DEX these days anyway.

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:36 AM EDT

How can Dexterity on mages be worthless if it will prevent 1 or 2 tank hits a round?

And if tanks do not train much of it, then mages do not have to also, correct?

Then mages can spend their NW in DBs to avoid the weapon PTH.

All the while getting free NW damage ability while a tank has to add NW to both x and +.

So now mages can train 3 stats to a tanks 3 stats, all the while spending less NW on items than tanks.

I fail to see the problem. Do you wish to go back to the old evasion where tanks had no chance to hit mages?

Perhaps if I was still playing Koy that would still be the case.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 11:43 AM EDT

OK, lets look at what each stat does for each type;

Mage:
HP: Keeps you alive
DD: Deal Linear Damage
Dex: Offers Protection from Physical Attacks

Tank
HP: Keeps you alive
STR: Deal Linear Damage (with an insiginifcant Damage reduction)
DEX: Offers Protection from Physical Attacks *and* Gives you a percentage increase to Damage you Deal.

If both type trained all three stats, Tanks have a serious advantage on the XP they spend, over Mages, as two of thier intrinsics increase their damage to the mages one.

Oh and the usual arguement;

DD always hits, but only hits once. Tanks have a chance to hit, but can hit multiple times.

No longer works.

As Weapons with 100% Base to Hit (only the ELBow atm) get the best of both. They will always hit once per round, and they also have the ability to hit multiple times per round.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 11:49 AM EDT

"Do you wish to go back to the old evasion where tanks had no chance to hit mages?"

LoL! That was debunked before you originally left Ranger, but I'll reiterate if you want.

First, if you ignore that no Tank really tried to salvage thier wepaons and take use of the new Gloves/Cloak/Leadership to give them the PTH gain to counter Evasion, it wasn't Mages that people were up in arms aobut.

It was Minions with Evasion, the AoF and the RoBF.

It was also usually a poor comparions of the 4 minion tank trying to hit a single minion that had concentrated the vast majority of thier XP into a single stat.

No 4 minion team Tank should have been expected to hit a single minion of equal team size, that had dedicated nearly 100% of thier XP into a single stat that was in turn dedicated to making Tanks miss.

But this is old news.

The problem here is there being no counter for Physical attacks to 'always hit', which has been the purview of the single attack per round DD spells since CB started.

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:50 AM EDT

"DEX: Offers Protection from Physical Attacks *and* Gives you a percentage increase to Damage you Deal. "

Has something changed since I last played?

I never knew dexterity gives you a % chance to do more damage.

"As Weapons with 100% Base to Hit (only the ELBow atm) get the best of both. They will always hit once per round, and they also have the ability to hit multiple times per round."

That is so wrong! Explain to me why I whiff vs numerous opponents in missile even with the 100% base chance to hit. I am using a +130 mageseeker with a 2.5M dexterity.

I can quote you numerous opponents, but I give you the JKF, has evasion and dexterity. I miss plenty of JKFs in missile rounds.

Perhaps if a mage REALLY wanted to avoid getting hit in missile, they would train evasion and dexterity.

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:53 AM EDT

Another example of the always hitting elb missing:

Contest's shot ricocheted near Hal

Vs Lord of Wars,

His tank has 1.6M dexterity.

My HF has 2.5M and +101 Dbs.

Yet he mysteriously misses.

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:54 AM EDT

GL,

There were 3 characters I would miss more than 50% of the time with my +220ish MH.

And 1 of those did not use the RBF. So it was not just the evasion/RBF that was a problem.

QBJohnnywas March 26 2009 11:57 AM EDT

I'm using a +126 ELB (with a bit of boost from a ToA) and I can hit Mikel and his oversized DBs. Only single hits, but one miss in one ranged round, hits for the rest of ranged.

QBRanger March 26 2009 11:59 AM EDT

And if Mikel trained dexterity, you would not hit.

QBJohnnywas March 26 2009 12:07 PM EDT

Against the next biggest pair of DBs (+202 I believe) - which are on a minion with 3 million dex by the way - I don't miss at all.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 26 2009 12:19 PM EDT

JW: against Mikel, all your PTH should be reduced to 0, but you maintain DX advantage cth because DBs don't counter that, I think.

How does DX advantage and bth stack? You have around 3mil DX, just like the target you mention, so does that mean you get only bth of 100, or bth + 50% of potential DX advantage = 150 cth? Or is it something else?
Because, then, your PTH can be reduced to -50, but you'd still have 100% chance to hit in every round.

QBRanger March 26 2009 12:35 PM EDT

JW,

Go with a SF and you would hit every round also :)

But if Mikel or the next highest DB user trained dex, you would not hit.

So I again fail to see the problem.

Train dexterity if you do not want to get hit at all.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 1:02 PM EDT

"Has something changed since I last played?"

Each percent of to hit granted by Dexteriety is a 1% damage increase.

The AoI -20% reduciton comes after everything else, and is as far as I'm aware, the only thing that can reduce the 100% base chance to hit.

QBRanger March 26 2009 2:06 PM EDT

"Each percent of to hit granted by Dexteriety is a 1% damage increase. "

Can you find and quote where that is stated? I have never known such a thing, but I do not know it all--yet.

But if the AoI is the only thing to decrease the 100% base CTH, then how come I miss in some missile rounds vs people. Something cannot be right then.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 2:59 PM EDT

It's just part of the whole chance to hit business.

If you hit for 'x' damage in a single hit (at 100% chance to hit) and an extra 100% chance to hit will give you another attack for 'x' damage, then 100% hit is 100% extra damage.

Which means each 1% increased chance to hit your Dexterity gives is an extra 1% damage.

To be honest, I'm not sure what else can reduce things below thier base chance to hit.

Unless the base chance to hit is for equal dex to your opponent, therefore Tanks with larger Dex than you, and enough DB/'whatnot to reduce your PH to zero will make you wiff more often.

QBRanger March 26 2009 3:02 PM EDT

AH, I understand what your typing about dexterity giving more damage.

But again, if a mage decides to train dexterity and evasion, they can make themselves immune to physical damage, if trained and upped enough.

I see no problem with that choice.

The problem was with evasion triple dipping the old way.

1) Minus PTH
2) Defensive Dexterity
3) Superboost to both from the AoF.

One can still use the AoF to boost the evasion level. But the dexterity now will have to be normally trained/boosted like any tank does.

Yes a tank can use the TOA, but is giving up using a familiar which can potentially do tons of damage on its own.

It is a choice, and choices are good.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 3:05 PM EDT

If upped enough? You'd have to have a stuipidly high Dex compared to the Tanks you face, which gives you no ohe benefit for the XP spent, and you won't be wearing any Dex boosting gear as a mage.

The problem with Evasion (apart from the AoF) was that you cold take dex chance to hit down with the effect and then also have defensive dexterity to reduce that chance to hit as well.

Now, with -pth not reducing chance to hit at all, Evasion should gain the deefnsive Dexterity back.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 3:06 PM EDT

"But the dexterity now will have to be normally trained/boosted like any tank does."

And that has *never* been a viable answer. If it was, someone would have done it back in CB1 before Evasion was introduced. No one's ever done it, becuase it's utterly worthless to train on a non Tank.

I'll agree to training it, if say dex started giving Mages a chance to cast thier spell extra times each round.

Then it would be viable. ;)

QBRanger March 26 2009 3:17 PM EDT

"I'll agree to training it, if say dex started giving Mages a chance to cast thier spell extra times each round."

That may be interesting.

However, what do you do with FB or CoC that target the whole party? Use the highest dex in the other character?

Do you base it on dex vs dex or dex as a % to a finite number?

I would have less of a problem if you combined this with a mage skill to get a multiple cast.

All based upon the DD level of the caster.

But I am just throwing crap out there with this post and seeing if anything sticks.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 26 2009 3:29 PM EDT

"Against the next biggest pair of DBs (+202 I believe) - which are on a minion with 3 million dex by the way - I don't miss at all."
The Mighty Hands Of Love undershot Mirana Nightshade

QBRanger March 26 2009 3:45 PM EDT

Whoa!!

I thought the elb with its 100% base CTH guaranteed 1 hit a round.

Could CB be broken???

I think this is an emergency for Jon to fix right now :)

How dare a tank ever miss and prove it is possible, the gall of it all!!!

QBRanger March 26 2009 3:50 PM EDT

"The Mighty Hands Of Love undershot Mirana Nightshade "

And using a TOA none the less.

CB really has to be broken now. Mages certainly should not have to train dex to avoid all tank hits. Let us make it so easy for them to always hit and never be hit.

NOT

QBJohnnywas March 26 2009 4:30 PM EDT

Lol Ranger, if this was the old days I might argue the toss a little more. But it's a while since you've been so defensive of a strat. Wonder why that is?

QBRanger March 26 2009 4:35 PM EDT

Because I am sick of people saying mages have every right to not spend any CB2 and evade tanks.

That is an age old argument that is beyond my comprehension.

There are ways mages can avoid tanks. It is just that nobody wants to spend the xp or CB2.

In order to counter NW, perhaps NW is needed.

When evasion tripled dipped, there was no way any tank could compete. Now things are a bit more even as there are mages/tank/hybrids at/near the top.

And now all this garbage about how tanks never miss, how evasion needs to be rebuffed, etc..\

I guess I am sick of the same complaints coming to the surface again and again. The same stupid stupid ones.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 7:14 PM EDT

"Because I am sick of people saying mages have every right to not spend any CB2 and evade tanks.

That is an age old argument that is beyond my comprehension.

There are ways mages can avoid tanks. It is just that nobody wants to spend the xp or CB2.

In order to counter NW, perhaps NW is needed."

You're missing the point. By miles...

1) There is a NW counter to NW. DB versus PTH. No one is disputing that.

2) Ther is *no* NW counter to the XP based base/dex chance to hit.]

3) The only XP counter to the XP based base/dex chance to hit is Dex, which is pointless bad for anyone bar a Tank to Train. And to highlight this, not even Tanks train much of it.

So.

Where is the NW counter to the Elbows 100% Base chance to hit?

Tyriel [123456789] March 26 2009 7:15 PM EDT

"And to highlight this, not even Tanks train much of it."

Then it shouldn't take much to counter, no?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 7:17 PM EDT

You have to massively beat the expenditure that train in Dex, just to touch the inherant 100% base they get.

It's more more wasted XP you have to throw away to combat something the wepaon gets for *nothing*. No NW, no PR increase.

Nothing.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 7:18 PM EDT

Ranger, if DBs could now reduce Dex based chance to hit and base chance to hit, like they used to, then fine. There's your NW answer.

But they can't.

QBRanger March 26 2009 7:43 PM EDT

So le me get this right; you want a NW way to defeat dex Cth?

Instead of letting xp fight vs xp?

Yet above you wanted defensive dex granted back to evasion. Or someone who feels similiar to you does.

Why are you so opposed to have to train dex to counter dex CTH?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 26 2009 9:11 PM EDT

Don't know if this has been pointed out or not. But ever heard of ranged penalties? That's what causes the "always hit" Elbow to miss.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 26 2009 9:17 PM EDT

It's not okay to have to train DX to counter tanks but it's okay to have to train AMF to counter mages?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 26 2009 9:21 PM EDT

Do you know how much xp you need to counter out all of a DD, because I do.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 26 2009 9:23 PM EDT

Sorry bout the double post, but GL AoI's counter cth not just pth.

QBRanger March 26 2009 9:48 PM EDT

Just think of dexterity in CB2 as being the cause fear of CB1.

Learning it can lower physical damage, and the amount is opponent based.

Sort of like, as JS pointed out, AMF vs DD

And to cancel the weapon PTH, which is NW based, use DB, also NW based.



AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 27 2009 4:03 AM EDT

No Ranger;

"So le me get this right; you want a NW way to defeat dex Cth?"

You asked for that above....

"Instead of letting xp fight vs xp?"

Cool, then let Dex work double for Mages, *as they get no offense out of it*, unlike Tanks.

Or scrap Dex based increases to the number of hits.

I'm easy either way.

Until then, it's back to "cake and eat it time". Ah those were the days....

QBJohnnywas March 27 2009 4:13 AM EDT

Big DBs and Big ELBS FTW. Is this CB1? ;)

BadFish March 27 2009 4:18 AM EDT

I don't really think Jon should plan CB gameplay around the fact that a select few people are going to take USD spending to an outrageous level.

Little Anthony March 27 2009 5:13 AM EDT

i got a feeling that most of these replies have nothing to do with the title :D or the questions i had.
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