Testimony of the living God (in Off-topic)

ok my brother was 24 i think
he weighed 520 pounds he was diagnosed with congestive heart failure
well every one told him he was going to die
if he did everything right he had only a 50% chance to walk out of the hospital
they said he needed a heart transplant
well my grandmother got him a bible
and he prayed and said God if im goin to be alright
then give me a message
he let his bible fall open
it turned to isaiah 40:28-31
28Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
29He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
30Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
=> Hakai after that my brother lost one hundred and ten pounds in three weeks
his heart shrank
and the infection left it
that is impossible with surgery and medicine
and after that my mother got cancer
and i was in the car with her one day and i saw a sign and it said isaiah 12:2
i will trust in the lord and not be afraid and (not the whole verse)
well i got like probably 65 people to pray for her and about 30 churches
and the day before she went to get the tests ran i was annointed for her shes not a christian
she got the news back early (which is usualy bad) and it said they couldnt find the cancer in her lungs


any prayer requests? my God can do anything lol

That's great that they both lived through those ordeals.

It must be nice to have that level of faith. Or any faith at all, I guess.

My mom just went through surgery for cervical cancer and she started chemotherapy a few days ago.

I've tried praying but I honestly can't convince myself that by putting faith in some abstract figure will make her better.

ill get my church to pray for her mist it says in the bible that if u have faith the size of a mustard seed u can cast mountains into the sea dont give up on God just yet but make sure whatever u ask for ask it in jesus name

When's the last time you heard of a mountain being cast into the sea?

Actually, mountains do move, when the earth's crust shifts.

i personally don't believe in god but i do believe in the power of the mind and if u truly believe in something enough it can happen

/me starts wishing for AA's tat. Hard.

The mind of mortals is capable of performing miracles if they wish for something hard enough.

I myself do not believe in a similar God like you do but I hope this thread will not cause problems for you or anyone else because of the sensitive topic.

I dont know why humans dont give themselves more credit for their success

lotien, I am glad your brother and mother are healthy, and I wish for their continued health (and yours) in the future!

congrats on health win!

"I don't know why humans don't give themselves more credit for their success"

I always think the same thing when stuff like this comes up. Miraculous stuff like this happens to people who don't pray as well. But nobody ever mentions that, because it would interfere with their agenda.

Anyway, I wish your brother all the best, and a speedy recovery.

I also am happy to hear of any recovery from dire health situations, however I take issue with the idea that an interventionist deity has anything to do with it.

I'm sure you've seen some cute poster that has some inspirational picture of a one legged man running and breaking the ribbon at the finish line with some cheese filled tag line. Often it might say the famous cliche "God doesn't make mistakes". It's that line that summarizes why I'm loath to accept that the healing touch of the lord is responsible for miraculous situations. If god doesn't make mistakes, that implies that he willfully subjects hundreds of millions of individuals to levels of suffering that none of us could endure. If the creator of the heavens and the earth heals human ailments directly, why is it that voiceless children remain trapped in a tormented state for their entire lives, never knowing relief or comfort? I challenge you to find in your self an answer for this, without relying on the cruel sayings that are consistently used by pastors and priests. I cannot rejoice in the healing power of prayer and faith while suffering continues in those who have nothing but faith. Believers whose offspring are twisted and tortured by genetics aren't faithless, god isn't working in mysterious ways. Life is bigger, badder, and more mindlessly vicious than any conjured demon or devil. It's capable of destroying our species without a single nanosecond of remorse. Life is so much more beautiful and horrible than we understand, excusing it with god's will is childish.

God tests you to make sure you are a perfect candidate for heaven, and He will never lay more on you than you can handle.
He tests all things, but never past the breaking point.

not another "I believe in God, well I don't!" thread.

Keep religion out of CB.

amen brother henk!

+37 Henk

Just after making my post, I realized I'd argued politics, finance, and religion in a single morning on CB... the shame curdled my blood.

I'm sure you've seen some cute poster that has some inspirational picture of a one legged man running and breaking the ribbon at the finish line with some cheese filled tag line. Often it might say the famous cliche "God doesn't make mistakes". It's that line that summarizes why I'm loath to accept that the healing touch of the lord is responsible for miraculous situations. If god doesn't make mistakes, that implies that he willfully subjects hundreds of millions of individuals to levels of suffering that none of us could endure. If the creator of the heavens and the earth heals human ailments directly, why is it that voiceless children remain trapped in a tormented state for their entire lives, never knowing relief or comfort? I challenge you to find in your self an answer for this, without relying on the cruel sayings that are consistently used by pastors and priests. I cannot rejoice in the healing power of prayer and faith while suffering continues in those who have nothing but faith. Believers whose offspring are twisted and tortured by genetics aren't faithless, god isn't working in mysterious ways. Life is bigger, badder, and more mindlessly vicious than any conjured demon or devil. It's capable of destroying our species without a single nanosecond of remorse. Life is so much more beautiful and horrible than we understand, excusing it with god's will is childish.

Gods will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. ya horrible things happen but they are not caused by God. i mean if God had his way we would walk in the cool of the day with him. for those people who just have faith in him theres no need to worry about em they will be taken care of.

What a wonderful fictional character he is.

Can we get a lock on this thread already. Some people believe in one God or the other, some don't believe in any. Who cares, keep it out of CB. Its much like politics. We know that it shouldn't be brought up due to the rift it will eventually create but we bring it up any way and suffer for a while after.

So just let this thread die now.

rrowland. you post too much and don't have any feed, knowledge or intelligence in what you post. go ahead and post negatively once, but to post multiple times, you really have no life.

and whatever you post back won't upset me, but I'm sure you will waste your time doing that anyway.

lotien, great post.

yall quit bickering Jesus said u can say anything about God or himself and it will be forgiven u but not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit this was a thread to show my God can do anything and to ask people if they needed prayer

I don't see why that thread would get closed while the politics ones remain open. It's the same principle. One person believes one way, the other disagrees.

Personally, I don't think either one belongs on CB, mainly because people just fight. But to close one and allow another is wrong, in my opinion.

>Can we get a lock on this thread already

i see no reason to lock threads like this as long as discussions remain cool and level headed.

Hakai:
"I don't see why that thread would get closed while the politics ones remain open. It's the same principle. One person believes one way, the other disagrees.

Personally, I don't think either one belongs on CB, mainly because people just fight. But to close one and allow another is wrong, in my opinion."

Honestly, I'm a fan of closing both of them. Neither of the topics is needed on CB and all they do is start drama and drive a giant spike in the middle of our dwindling community. I know we'll not always see eye to eye, but the least we can do is quit handing knives to each other.

arent u all in chat lol?

If people wish to believe in G-d that is their choice. It should also be a choice not to without getting bombarded by fanatics.

As a doctor I see quite a few people who have miraculous recoveries from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc..

That said, it is rare to have such a recovery without state of the art care.

But.. Something is to be said about the power of positive thinking and the ability of the body to respond to positive energies.

Lotien,

I am very happy everything seems to have worked out positive for you. Whether it was sheer luck of the cosmos, the power of prayer or just a miracle nobody will likely ever know.

Just live each day to the fullest since it may be your last.

"arent u all in chat lol?"

nope, did god show up there & smite the heathens or something? ; )

lol ranger i do know what it was

Bother and mother... This is the realm of genetics. You'll find one more of similar circumstance in the family tree.

We are Lotien but its alot harder to reply in depth and length, and expect someone to read it, when you're trying to talk in a tiny little chatbox compared to something like a forum post.

so any prayer requests?

Lotien, I'm happy for you and your family. As a fellow christian seeing public announcements such as this are bittersweet. Testimony so sweet, combined with the bitter knowledge that to nonbelievers it will be seen as an annoyance, a testimony to the fanaticism of today's Christian world. Regrettably, although the Bible states to spread the word of God across the world, it is nearly impossible to do so without giving people a bad taste in their mouths, further pushing them from the light of God's love. In our day and age you cannot tell people God loves them, you cannot tell them that to have faith is to have joy, and you cannot tell them that anything is possible through God. This is the age of information, and everyone has information that shows proof in their minds that we are wrong. Christians can no longer tell people that God loves them, we can only show them. Through our actions, through the way we portray ourselves, and through our devotion to something greater then our selfish wants. There is a time and a place to talk about your beliefs, there is a way to do so without scaring people off. CB is not that place. Again, congratulations on your family's recovery.

wasnt my idea just to let ya know lol

Thanks for the testimony lotien, I'm sure you helped anyone who was one the border of faith.

no prayer requests?

"rrowland. you post too much and don't have any feed, knowledge or intelligence in what you post. go ahead and post negatively once, but to post multiple times, you really have no life.

and whatever you post back won't upset me, but I'm sure you will waste your time doing that anyway. "

You suck. If you reply then you don't have a life.

Yep I'm copying you.

"I've tried praying but I honestly can't convince myself that by putting faith in some abstract figure will make her better."
The point of prayer isn't to get things or fix things. That's a common misconception. That's also not to say that sometimes things donﾒt happen when you pray. I'll be praying for your mom.

"If god doesn't make mistakes, that implies that he willfully subjects hundreds of millions of individuals to levels of suffering that none of us could endure. If the creator of the heavens and the earth heals human ailments directly, why is it that voiceless children remain trapped in a tormented state for their entire lives, never knowing relief or comfort? I challenge you to find in your self an answer for this, without relying on the cruel sayings that are consistently used by pastors and priests. I cannot rejoice in the healing power of prayer and faith while suffering continues in those who have nothing but faith. Believers whose offspring are twisted and tortured by genetics aren't faithless, god isn't working in mysterious ways."
People make enough mistakes to account for every bad thing that's ever happened. As for God's intervention, I believe that it occurs, but I can't say that it is consistent. There are believers who die of cancer and there are unbelievers who experience "miraculous" recoveries, and it's not my role to presume to know how God was involved in each instance.
And it's no ones role to question the character of the creator of the universe. Since all moral parameters that we recognize exist within our own understanding within the universe, our limited understanding of what may or may not have been done or intended by a being completely beyond our comprehension and beyond our means of judging integrity means more or less squat. Actually, I would take it a step further and assert that, philosophically, it's impossible for the creator of the universe to be unrighteous or unjust ﾖ because he's the one who makes the rules, isn't he?

"Personally, I don't think either one belongs on CB, mainly because people just fight. But to close one and allow another is wrong, in my opinion."
I don't think the issue is with the topics in question, but with the people fighting about them. Ban fighting in CB! Oh, wait...

Ranger made some valid points, I think.

Ummm, I guess I don't know what else to say. God Bless.

/me hugs CC. Wow, you pretty much just summed up all the ideas I have on it. Thanks a lot.

rrowland, please don't troll. I'm not sure I've ever seen you make a post in forums or type a line into chat that was not intended to draw someone out into a fight.

That being said, I do hope this thread clears up into more discussion and less flaming and bashing; CB should be mature enough that everyone can respect each others' beliefs to neither criticize nor push them on each other.

I offer my opinion as does everybody else. I'm not trolling for a fight.

I'm not a sugarcoating kind of guy and judging by what I've read and reactions I've seen I'll be crucified for not being politically correct around here.

I just hope that everyone who believes in religion gives those that do not respect.

That is the problem I have right now with organized religion. People who truly believe want to shove it in your fact to "convert you".

I am glad he took the time to help your family get better while millions of people starve all around the world. While dictators around the world massacre their subjects and expose them to tortures beyond words. While children suffer debilitating diseases and die from cancer at a young age. While millions of people die in wars brought about by selfish reasons.

Again, I am happy everything worked out in the end for you.

CC, I remember that being an argument I learned in my Intro to Philosophy course last year.

Is God morally perfect because he does things that are good? Or is good defined because God does them?

The former assumes that there is objective morality, something we've never been given proof of. But if the latter is true, and morality is just arbitrary, then it does not mean anything. If he punched babies in the face, then it would be morally right for us to punch babies in the face.

if god is so far beyond our comprehension, then where does that leave us with the bible? in effect if we cannot understand the creator how do we then have his living word in book form?

or does the uber-mysterious god only come into play when it is convenient for us to not understand his workings?

in effect, either we understand him enough to have created the good book or he is so far beyond comprehension that the bible is mans creation alone?

being tactful...portraying your opinion without insults or disrespect... that shouldn't be hard. There is a very large difference between not being PC, and acting like a fool.

im the 1 and only you should fear!! im AoD im far more powerfull then your lord and savior, since he never saved someone from me means i own him :D

Ranger:

Job 36:29 "Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion?"

Ecclesiastes 11:5 "As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed [ Or know how life (or the spirit ) / enters the body being formed ] in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things."

Micah 4:12 "But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD; they do not understand his plan, he who gathers them like sheaves to the threshing floor."

John 13:7 "Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.""

Fine, if you're going to play the "god works in mysterious ways" card that negates your "believe and you will be healed" card...

I never said that nov, but prayers are answered (if they are the will of God), so if you pray, then it is possible that you can be healed. Understand?

All sickness starts in the mind. It manifests into the physical form in whatever way it does.. that being the sickness we endure.

It comes down to what ImmortalAA said.. basically it's the power of your/supports minds that does it, not god. It's the belief that fixes it, the belief that you will be ok, you will mend; not 'god' or another external entity that magically does it for you.

Again,

I am happy G-d chose to listen to Lotien's prayers, all the while ignoring those from crippled children, abused people in tyrannical countries, and people tortured in foreign jails for simply expressing their opinion. Among an abundance of injustices around the world.

Certainly G-d does work in mysterious ways.

He sure does, he sure does.

Arguing about belief - just one of those things that makes absolutely no sense

I don't like to be preached at as the rest of you, but this is a public-ish forum (unless Jon has an objection to something), and I'm sure some people do appreciate his post, so there's no reason to be too inflammatory. Either way it's a nice story, and I'm glad things worked out for you.

"Is God morally perfect because he does things that are good? Or is good defined because God does them?"

While each option says different things about the nature of God and whether he is greater than or external to vs. being subject to morality, both lead to the same end result as far as application goes. If God is morally perfect because he does only good things, it can be said that [what God does] = good. By the commutative property (or something?), we can then conclude that good = [what God does], which is the second statement. In either case, good conduct is behavior matching God's own behavior.

Personally, I think God is much greater a concept/entity/being/force than morality ever could be, and therefore statement 2 is more accurate. In this case, there is no possibility for God's actions and good to be unequal, whereas the first possibility appears to leave room for such a situation. However, the first proposal implies that God is a being subject to morality, in which case he would not be able to stray from such a particular set of actions. Otherwise, such an objective morality would have no meaning whatsoever, if it has no bearing on our or any other life.

Ranger, are you trying to stir up a fight, or is there something productive you're doing here that I'm missing?

I am saying that it is great Lotien's family is doing well.

However, I personally seriously doubt his families prayers are what did the trick.

As I stated numerous things can happen and there is a lot we do not yet understand.

But I personally do not believe there is a higher being who listens to our prayers given all the evil in the world.

I am more of the clock theory of religion.

You know I have seen many posts portraying many things and no matter which way it goes some agree while others don't. It ends up one of two ways either the fanatics/extremists on one end or the other of the subject are the majority and honestly it is never good. I try my best to not Flame anyones posts as that is a bit disrespectful, I think others should do the same whether they agree with the subject or not. State your opinion and then let it go this should go for both sides. Doing things like this are respectful not only to others but to yourself as well.

Neither side should be cramming anything in anyones face/mouth it is wrong. That is the problem with the idea, everyone wants to impose THEIR WILL on others saying it is GOD's and expects it to work every time. This is not the WILL OF GOD that is your own and the main reason why there has been many terrible and gruesome wars. If they are willing to listen then so be it if not then so be that as well. GOD's WILL is his own and doesn't need your help you need his remember that.

On a side note yes I am a Christian I don't deny my GOD. I think that is a good testament lotien I wish that there was not such dissent over something positive. As far as the why why why people keeps asking honestly we "Christians" don't have the answers GOD does. If you want that answer then ask him and if he deems it a question worthy of an answer he will give it to you.

At times I have questioned my faith, every Christian has in some way big or small if they say they haven't they are liars. It is easy to question things and say "I don't believe." yet it is so hard to stop questioning and say "I do believe." I have noticed every time I have questioned my belief things have gone very wrong, evey time I stopped questioning my beliefs things went right....Go Figure on that. I have decided to stay the course that is my right, if you all decided not to then that is your choice it is not mine nor any other Christians right to Judge.

lotien yes I do have a prayer request. My mother has been very sick for a long time and as a result has been moved out of my or my families reach in order to give her the type of medical care she requires. It is hard for me to call her as I cannot talk to her directly she has had pneumonia for several months and is on oxygen as a result. Every time I call to check her status I get the same report I'm getting to think that they just don't care to tell me the truth or they just don't care at all. Either way my main concern is my mothers health not my personal aggravations. I ask that you pray for her recovery and a return to home where the family can at least visit her if nothing else. Thank You in advance :)

Does prayer help heal some people ? Yes.
But then again, so do sugar pills, if the people taking them think it's a powerful drug that will help them.
It's called the placebo effect.
Prayer and sugar pills have about the same effectiveness, regardless of ilness (well, except diabetes, there sugar pills would probably hurt).

Some people make miraculous recoveries, it's just a spin of the wheel of fortune. Obviously, nobody cares for those who lost, and from all those that "won" that spin, all they remember is that "their prayers helped". Nope, sorry, they didn't. It was all just plain luck and sheer willpower, nothing more, nothing less. No supernatural being to help you.

The fact people some attribute their success to prayers only diminishes their own accomplishments, and it makes me angry.

I'm a Christian myself, but I'll agree with you Ranger about organized religion. I think it's one of the most destructive things ever to appear in this world.

I have two problems.

1. People that try to cram their religion down other people's throats.
2. People that try to tell somebody that their religion is false, that God is useless, or that praying is only a placebo effect.

If you're wondering, I'm agnostic (NOT atheist).

I have a problem with the latter because it's basically the same as the first - you're cramming your beliefs (that religion is pointless) down others' throats.

The big difference is that (statistical) evidence supports the latter :P

Religion has nothing to do with statistics or evidence or math, in my opinion. It is a matter of faith, and for you to tell somebody that their faith is wrong is just as bad as them trying to force religion down their throats.

Religion is a matter of faith and requires no evidence, statistics, or science for people to believe in it.

It would beneficial to remove yourself from any label (Religious, Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Spiritual, etc) and review your beliefs logically and critically. Forget about the warm, fuzzy feeling you get thinking of god's love, or making Christians cry (Christians former, Atheists latter). Forget about the consequences of blasphemy that have been drilled in your head your entire childhood (hell, and maybe being outcast from your family).

Examine why you believe what you do. Do you truly believe, or have you simply grown up in an environment that nurtured you into your way of thinking? Are any of the beliefs based on logic or evidence, or is it all from the word of a preacher / your parents / a book?

*sigh*

Arguing about the existence/non-existence of God is like trying to argue with a color blind person that the sky is blue. They cannot see the same things as you, so you will never be able to convince them you're right.

Besides even if they do finally accept your "the sky is blue", they'll never believe it the way that you do. Because they have never seen it for themselves.

Or, if you have some problem with my color-blindness analogy. Think black holes instead.

I disagree in general. With a little critical thinking and some logical thought processes, people tend to realize there really isn't much of a reason they have their faith other than it's how they were raised.

I do agree that such enlightenment is most likely not going to take place on these forums though.

the only thing I'm thinking is how come a belief of god is instantly associated with Christianity? Is it possible to believe in god but not the bible? How come in this discussion the two have become synonymous?

Rrowland, my father is not a Christian at all, my mother has a week Christian faith. I did not to decide to become a Christian until about 4 years ago, after much deep thought and reading. I guess I'm just a freak of nature :P.

weak*

I'd be very interested to understand your reasoning on that decision, Titan.

As I've told Gun and others recently, I have no interest in sharing my testimony of faith to those just wanting to try and tear my faith down. I would recommend you read the bible fully, talk over it with a preacher, learn a great deal about science and then make your decision. Maybe if you can convince me that it is your purpose is not to tear down my faith I would tell you, but that would take some trust.

I was once a Christian myself.

Then, I learned to read, and actually read the bible.
After I learned to think for myself and not take anything for granted just because somebody with authority said it, I became an agnostic myself.
And then I became a teenager.

I remained an agnostic for quite a while, actually.
I mean "what's the harm in simply allowing everybody to believe anything" ? That sort of makes sense, doesn't it ?
I became interested in how religions came to be, and what their rules were, and so on and so forth.
So far as I could see, there was absolutely no reason to believe any of them were not 100% man-made unless you really wanted to believe in spite of any evidence whatsoever.
But still, what harm could it do, I thought.
And then I finally went to university.

Then I became interested in biology, genetics, medicine in general, philosophy and so on and so forth. I became witness to more and more things done in the name of some god or another, things against the well-being of not just some people, but against all mankind or even against the planet. I saw many things borne of ignorance or desperation, in the name of some religion or in the name of just some people, or just for the heck of it.
People lose their wealth, their posessions, their families and even their lives just because they choose to believe something with no basis in reality, and I'm NOT just talking about religion here, I'm talking just as much about the credit crisis, wars all over the world and many other bad things. Everything that's "bad" comes from a lack of understanding and a belief in something that is not real.
Slowly but surely, from an agnostic I slowly became an atheist.

ALL religious people are 99.99% atheists anyway - they do not believe in all OTHER gods mankind has invented across the millenia, they just believe in one (or some) their small group thinks might be real.
Ignorance is not an excuse, desperation is not an excuse either.
Any reasonable person SHOULD be an atheist, and only show a tint of agnosticism if reasonable proof is given to the contrary. It would take (literally) a miracle, witnessed by a bunch of scientists and notarized by an authorised individual, analysed for years and years, and only if absolutely no reasonable scientific proof could be given should anybody believe in ANY gods, ever.

"Religion is a matter of faith and requires no evidence, statistics, or science for people to believe in it. "

In medical terms, that's called "DELUSION", not "religion".
But I guess religion is nothing more than mass delusion anyway.

We stick people in mental institutions for less nowadays...

Sickone, it's fine if you disagree with people, but trying to force your beliefs down their throats makes you no better than the people you are condemning.

Why can't you respect people for what they believe in, even if what you believe in is completely different?

I'm agnostic, I'm in no way affiliated with religion, and I find your post at least a little offensive to people who are religious. You're asking them to question and change their most fundamental beliefs, and when they say no, you're trying to force it down their throats.

Religion is more than just what you call "mass delusion". It serves as a way to bring people together and serves as a beacon of hope (and hope does not need statistics or science to exist) among other things.

It is a matter of belief sickone you have yours Im fine with that. I have mine Im fine with that too. Statistics go how the people taking them decide they should go any way, whether you or anyone else likes it that is the truth, I have seen it in action. Truth is many people don't want to believe they are wrong so they use others words to help them be right. In the end no matter how many words you or anyone else uses to convince one way or the other the choice falls to the person having to live with it. If they are happy with their choice then fine, if not then they will change it.

rrowland, as much as I am an agnostic leaning on atheist I have to disagree with you.

You statement implies that the if the belief of god was caused by living in a christian environment makes it wrong. But this is false logic.

Our entire moral framework is based on how we grow up, but it doesn't negate its value. There are cultural beliefs that are ingrained so deep in our language and actions that are very biased but we still believe in them.

You would need to be a fool to believe that everything we do is logical and that logic is objective and makes "right". In every subject (even science) there is no sense of true objectivity. Science aims to create theories based on evidence but by no means represents an objective truth or law. As humans we understand we will always be naive and oblivious to the truth.

My point is that neither religion and science are truly able of representing truth. Our human condition forces us to treat truth as an abstraction and a subjective term, one decided by the individual, therefore it is impossible to be wrong.

So the real question isn't "Is there god?" it's a bunch of other ones like:

At what level can the scientific method prove reality?
Do our emotions reflect a universal truth?
Is there a universal truth?
How important is tradition? Traditional values?
etc...

You're basically arguing "We know nothing" because everything is subject to perception, and we can't prove we perceive reality for what it really is. It's true, that everything we "know" is just a probability, but things that we "know" are relative to our scientific perception.

I'm not sure I understand your point on morals/god. I didn't link the two and I'm not sure what you're aiming for. I'm simply pointing out that belief in religion, as every other aspect of your personality or base of knowledge, is caused directly by your environment and experiences.

"I'm simply pointing out that belief in religion, as every other aspect of your personality or base of knowledge, is caused directly by your environment and experiences."

My point is that the above statement has no meaning, unless your implying that the fact it came from your environment makes it wrong. Simply stating that is like saying you know English because you were born in England. What does it mean?

That's not what makes religions wrong; there are plenty of other reasons for that. My point is that if you brought a child up believing in Santa the same way you bring children up believing in a god they would have just as strong of a conviction and faith. Children are taught specifically not to think logically about this.

It's not a matter of proof. You cannot disprove the existence of a God anymore than you can prove it. There is no statistics for this.

How do you know everything in your life hasn't been controlled?
Likewise, how do you know you aren't in the matrix? (not a joke)

You can't disprove the flying spaghetti monster either, right? Is it equally as likely as any other god? Why/why not?

Yes, you can't disprove the flying spaghetti monster. My point was not that one is right, or one is more crazy. You want to believe in a flying spaghetti monster that you can't physically test for.

Be my guest.

I'll respect you just as much as anyone else.

[quote]
QBRanger 3:30 PM EDT
If people wish to believe in G-d that is their choice. It should also be a choice not to without getting bombarded by fanatics.

As a doctor I see quite a few people who have miraculous recoveries from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc..

That said, it is rare to have such a recovery without state of the art care.

But.. Something is to be said about the power of positive thinking and the ability of the body to respond to positive energies.

Lotien,

I am very happy everything seems to have worked out positive for you. Whether it was sheer luck of the cosmos, the power of prayer or just a miracle nobody will likely ever know.

Just live each day to the fullest since it may be your last
[/quote]

You know, one could say that eventually everyone will know whether they were right or wrong. Because once you die, it'll be pretty clear.

Either Nothing will Happen, in which case the atheists were correct,
You will go to Heaven/Hell/Purgatory/Valhalla etc.. Which means *A* religion (and hopefully the one you follow) was correct.

Either way, the only thing you have is Faith.

Whether you choose to believe or deny in God, you must have faith in it. Faith that what you think is correct, that how you live according to that is correct, and that once the end comes for you, that faith will be rewarded/fulfilled.

Some people come to faith through positive/negative actions of a higher being, some go away because of it. Like was previously said: "You cannot know the mind of GOD". If he exists, would you be able to tell? If he doesn't, would you be able to?

And, just to tie it together..

It's like the Futurama episode said: "If you do it right, it's like you've done nothing at all"

(because i just like Futurama)

"You have to use a light touch. Like a safecracker or a pickpocket."

You do not need faith to not believe in something, that's false logic.

What is it that compels you to believe in something if not evidence?

Faith.

Believe in a higher power requires faith.
Absence of belief in a higher power also requires that you have faith. You may not call it faith, but at the end of the day, your still saying "He doesn't exist. I know it."

You cannot disprove the existence of a higher power, so the reason that you are convinced it/he/she does not exist, is faith.

From Wikipedia:

Faith is the confident belief in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.[1] It is also used for a belief, characteristically without proof.

Fits my definition of an atheist.

hey yall dont have to read it i have already stated the purpose of this thread. it is not to argue the existence of God or anything like that it is for prayer requests and share a testimony if anyone feels led that way. leave all the childish bickering out side.

Anywhere that you post/claim or otherwise imply that you believe in God, expect this to occur.

Is not faith to be tested? Satan tested Jesus in the desert for 40 days with temptation, yet he refused to deny him.

Consider this a warmup to the real-world testing you will face. And face2face is much worse, than online.

i know ive been tested before lol but people need to grow up lol

I'm not sure I know of many atheists who end their day with "He doesn't exist. I know it." Believe it or not, atheists don't usually base their life around "him". (!!!)

It doesn't take any faith to acknowledge evolution (The process, not the theory of evolution / Darwinism) is a proven fact. It doesn't take any faith to realize that everything in nature can be explained by the theory of evolution (Now I'm talking about Darwinism) and some things in nature conflict with the theory of intelligent design.

lotien, you _were_ told before you posted that it would blow up into exactly this.

One might say that they are grown up.

God chose to give people free will. And when they exercise that free will, you tell them not to. Are you not then contradicting God, whom you have just said you have faith and belief in?

Not to be antagonistic.. But I think that's pretty hypocritical.

where did that come from? rrowland

rrowland 9:40 PM EDT You do not need faith to not believe in something, that's false logic.


WE say the same thing of Love and Hate and many other things yet it is the belief that one day we will either have or shed these things. Belief in these things without the proof that it will happen is Hope. Hope oddly has almost the same definition as Faith........even belief itself is replaced with Faith at times. The real logic is that people doent't truly understand the real definition of Belief and Faith and until they do they will never be able to make a true statement about either.

Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Hope is the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best. [1] To hope is to wish for something with the expectation of the wish being fulfilled.

Faith is the confident belief in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.[1] It is also used for a belief, characteristically without proof.[2]Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of "trust", "belief", or "hope".

rrowland

You have faith that scientists aren't lying to you.
I'm not saying that I think scientist lie.
But like it or not, you do have faith in something.

Rrowland, the fact that you believe in the truth of darwinism, or atheism, is faith.

I think your misconstruing what I'm saying, or choosing to put 'faith' in a negative light.

Having faith in a concept/being/absence is not bad. At the end of the day, everyone gets to make their choice. If you've chosen to believe (or not believe) in atheism, great.
That means you have faith in yourself, that you are correct in that choice.

I'm not trying to force you to admit that God exists, or change your beliefs. That would be quite counter to my beliefs. I'm happy that you have chosen something to have faith in, whether or not you call it faith.

So I'll just ask this: Do you, or do you not, believe that faith exists?

Cube:
No, I don't believe that scientists are not lying to me. I don't need a scientist to tell me anything I'm not able to verify for myself. I'm definitely not lying to myself. There's no faith involved. The process of evolution is a proven science and can be tested by anybody.

"Rrowland, the fact that you believe in the truth of Darwinism, or atheism, is faith."
You can't "believe in atheism" as atheism simply represents a lack of belief. As far as the theory of evolution goes, piles and piles of evidence support the theory of evolution. If our country wasn't predominantly faithful I'd bet it would be recognized as fact.

Regardless of what name you want to give it, the main difference between our "faiths", in your words, is whether you believe in something due to evidence, or despite it. I believe in what I have observed, studied, researched and tested. I know that the theory intelligent design contradicts many things in nature today, where the theory of evolution does not. To believe in something that you have no real reason to believe is true (We're not counting "because my parents taught me so" or "what if it is true and I go to hell?" here), despite evidence and facts contradicting those beliefs, is insanity.

You have tested it and looked at fossils yourself?
Even then you are still trusting your eyes... When you come down to it, you can never be sure you're not in the Matrix.

"You can't "believe in atheism" as atheism simply represents a lack of belief."

Wait, what is Nihilism again?

ROFLSHIH now that is sooooo true. You will not know until it is over anyway then it won't matter anymore right?

And I forgot to make the distinction.

Agnosticism is a lack of belief.

Atheism isn't as you can not disprove God.

Well, until you can prove we're in the Matrix I'm going to say that's most likely not the case. :)

"Evolution is backed by tons of evidence."
"Not if we're in the matrix, and you can't prove we're not!"

/facepalm

"Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief."

Thank God (irony here), I thought I had the wrong philosophy in mind.

"Sickone, it's fine if you disagree with people, but trying to force your beliefs down their throats makes you no better than the people you are condemning. Why can't you respect people for what they believe in, even if what you believe in is completely different? "

There's a difference between believing something specific without proof of that "something specific" being true, and refusing to believe something specific unless that "something specific" is proven to be true.
The first thing we call "delusion", the second thing we call "normal human behaviour".

In case of a religion, the BURDEN OF PROOF lies on the people that believe in a God.
I have absolutely no reason to believe in any gods whatsoever, I have yet to see any shred of PROOF that any gods of any kind actually exist, and by "proof" I don't mean something that's statistically unavoidable like a tiny percentage of sick people "miraculously" (read "randomnly") getting better.
I do not BELIEVE, instead I KNOW that all religions on the face of the planet are man-made.
Sure, SOME "divine being" (or something similar to what religions like to describe as being so) MIGHT actually exist somewhere - but the probability that "it" gives a rat's posterior about any one of the human beings on the planet (or that "it" is even aware of our existance, IF "it" exists at all in the first place) is infinitesimally small.

If you tell me that you believe 2+2=5, should I "respect your beliefs", or educate you that no, in a vast majority of cases, 2+2=4 ?
If you tell me you believe you are immortal and try to prove it to me by jumping off a bridge, should I encourage your to jump because I've watched too many reruns of "Heroes", or should I try to convince you NOT to jump, because you will surely die ? Or maybe I should let you jump anyway, because that makes one less crazy person ?

There's a difference between "I respect your right to believe in whatever the heck you want to" and "I will not speak against your beliefs if I have good reasons to think they're wrong".
It's the difference between "yeah, sure, I respect your right to believe you are good at your job, that your wife is beautiful and your kids are smart" (which is cool with me) and "I believe 2+2=5" or "I respect that you believe the world is flat and heretics should be burned at the stake" (which obviously isn't).

For the record, I'm not arguing against evolution. I trust in evolution as well as all the work done behind it. I'm studying biomedical engineering..

But in the end, you cannot prove a lack of a deity, and evolution doesn't lead you to this conclusion at all. You can disprove parts of the Bible-5,000 yrs old Earth. You can disprove that individuals used to live for hundreds of years, but the belief in a God is not disprove-able.

And the difference between agnostics and atheists is not that great.

An agnostic says "I don't know if any Gods exist, but I don't really care much anyway, so who cares what the probabilities are".

An atheist says "There is a very high probability there are no gods, a probability high enough that for all intents and purposes we should act as if there were none even in the remote possibility they actually existed".

No self-respecting atheist will ever tell you "there is exactly zero percent chance of any gods or god-like beings ever existed or will exist". It's just that if somebody comes around telling you any one such God exists, you really want some form of proof first before you can take him even remotely serious.

String theory has just as much proof behind it as God.

I give up. You are too narrow-minded to understand what I tried to explain: Religion does not require science or proof, just like Hope exists despite probabilities and odds.

It's not "delusion", it's "faith" - calling it "delusion" is derogatory and insulting.

If you can't respect religion or people's faiths and whenever you see someone religious, tell them "Your religion is based on no science and you're stupid for following it", you're going to have a lot of trouble in life, no matter where you live.

Good luck with your future endeavors and hopefully (for your sake) you will not be this confrontational in real life. I will not be posting on this thread again because of this.

^Well that probably says more about string theory than religion, but I'm basically trying to explain that this debate is pointless.

For me, somebody who claims believes in god is on the same level of credibility as people that claim they saw Elvis (or claim they ARE Elvis), that they were abducted by aliens, that they saw Bigfoot or any other such things.
Sure, they might actually have seen Elvis, be the clone of Elvis, been abducted by aliens or whatnot, but unless they can come up with some PROOF, at best they're good for a laugh.

Why people in general take anybody who believes in any God even the least bit more seriously but ridicules any other of those "crazy people" (Elvis, aliens, conspiracy theories, whatever) is only due to the fact there's SO MANY people with the same type of viral-like delusion (religion) going around.

Believe what you will, you will do that anyway as you have the right to choose whatever you want. A man convinced against his will follows it still whether it is right or wrong. Soooo where were we again? Oh yeah I remember nevermind as it is your Belief and I respect it, respect mine in turn and let it go. ^_~

Even so, it isn't nice to ridicule crazy people.

Sickone, perhaps you should be respecting that they have a belief, not be respecting the belief. Since your clearly taking an anti-religion point of view.

"I do not BELIEVE, instead I KNOW that all religions on the face of the planet are man-made." <- Sounds like you have the BURDEN OF PROOF on this lil' factoid..

Rrowland:

My statement that you quoted was perhaps poorly worded. It should be read as: "the fact that you believe in the truth of Darwinism, or the truth of atheism, is faith."

You've (indirectly) answered my question.

You believe in faith. Just.. Not anyone elses? Infact, you even go so far as to claim that 'everyone who has faith in a god' is insane. Not your exact words, but the intent is there.

Not even religious fanatics claim everyone in the world except them is crazy.

"I give up. You are too narrow-minded to understand what I tried to explain: Religion does not require science or proof, just like Hope exists despite probabilities and odds."

No, I am not too narrow-minded to understand that religion doesn't require science or proof. I understand it completely. On the contrary, religion requires that you deny or ignore science and proof.

"I give up. You are too narrow-minded to understand what I tried to explain: Religion does not require science or proof, just like Hope exists despite probabilities and odds.
It's not "delusion", it's "faith" - calling it "delusion" is derogatory and insulting. "

It's only "faith" because SO MANY people believe it.
For all other intents and purposes IT IS a delusion.
Just because so many people are affected by the same mental condition doesn't make it ok to ignore.


" If you can't respect religion or people's faiths and whenever you see someone religious, tell them "Your religion is based on no science and you're stupid for following it", you're going to have a lot of trouble in life, no matter where you live. "


I'm not going to go to a church and start screaming "you are all delusional and should go see a doctor instead, your God does not exist", if that's what you seem to be implying.
I won't even ridicule anybody's belief when they say "let's all pray that <somebody> gets better".
But I will ridicule them when NEXT time somebody gets worse they decide to STOP going to the doctor AND JUST PRAY INSTEAD.

I will also ridicule religion whenever they try to interfere in affairs of the state, and start mandating that sundays or saturdays or whatever nobody should do any work, or that women should be considered inferior or unclean, I will ridicule religion whenever they call fertilized eggs "human beings" and forbid research on them, I will ridicule religion every chance I get whenever some COMPLETELY INANE ACTION is being taken that affects me in any way, shape or form due to the delusions of somebody who happens to have a say-so in anything.
Religion is bad because acting without thinking is bad.
Religion is bad because people who make decisions should make decision based on FACTS, not on hopes and dreams or beliefs in something "larger than them that will help them in their time of need".

Are we clear ? Crystal ?

"My statement that you quoted was perhaps poorly worded. It should be read as: "the fact that you believe in the truth of Darwinism, or the truth of atheism, is faith."

You've (indirectly) answered my question.

You believe in faith. Just.. Not anyone elses? Infact, you even go so far as to claim that 'everyone who has faith in a god' is insane. Not your exact words, but the intent is there.

Not even religious fanatics claim everyone in the world except them is crazy."

What do you mean, "I believe in faith"? Yes, faith is real. People really do believe in things despite having no evidence or even denying contradictory evidence. What is your point?

You have slimmed down my words to a specific statement here. Anybody that has a blind faith in anything, despite contradictory evidence, is insane. Be it the existence of a god or 2+2=5.

And what do you mean everyone in the world but me? Surely you don't think I'm the only person in the world that doesn't cling to belief of a god?

"whenever they call fertilized eggs "human beings" and forbid research on them"

While I don't associate with Christianity, or even so much the right-wingers, I agree that once an egg is fertilized it is developing into a human being and thus should not be harmed merely for convenience or knowledge's sake.

No it does not rrowland, that is where your understanding is flawed. It means to beleive DESPITE all of the proof of science. There is a difference, and before you call anyone narrowminded you might want to take a step back and think a little more about that statement. Does it apply to you as well as to us, or only to us because you said it? Who gave you the right to judge me or my belief, hope, Faith, or anything else for that matter?

There's a little anecdote here...

A guy in the middle of a flood is sitting on a rooftop.
A boat comes along, he says "no, God will save me".
Another boat comes along, he still goes "no, thanks, God will save me".
Then a rescue chopper comes along, yet still he preseveres "God will save me".
Obviously, he enters heaven soon after. At the gates, he starts complaining that God failed to save him.
Then saint Peter goes "hmm, weird... I have it on our records that we sent two boats and a helicopter..."

"While I don't associate with Christianity, or even so much the right-wingers, I agree that once an egg is fertilized it is developing into a human being and thus should not be harmed merely for convenience or knowledge's sake."

It's not even conscious or aware until the third trimester, it's no more inhumane than plucking a plant from the ground. But abortion is an entirely different subject, for another thread or a rainy day.

Eh, it's still on its way to developing into a human being just like you or I. Conscious, aware, or no, that's still depriving it of the opportunity to experience life; however, as you said, this is more a matter of viewpoints and is an argument for another day (or another thread.)

"No it does not rrowland, that is where your understanding is flawed. It means to beleive DESPITE all of the proof of science."
Your post ended here, when you agreed that you need to ignore science to continue believing in a god.

" "I do not BELIEVE, instead I KNOW that all religions on the face of the planet are man-made." <- Sounds like you have the BURDEN OF PROOF on this lil' factoid.. "

Let's see... where should I start... the heavy recycling of themes in all current day religions ? The fact pretty much every religion contradicts most others ? The fact that the "holy books" of most religions even contradict THEMSELVES a lot ? The fact that the main thing religion is good for is control of the crowds by the clergy ? The fact that there are absolutely no miracles recorded by serious sources that can't be explained by science ? No, seriously, where should I start ?

Also, note what I said earlier... "KNOW" does not mean "100% certain". It simply means "with such a high probability that for all intents and purposes we could assume it is so".
You know, as contrasted by "BELIEVE" which is "I have absolutely no evidence, the probability of that being true might even be minimal, yet I still choose to think that's the truth".

One could argue that your millions of little men are deprived of life whenever you have a little alone time or they don't make it to the egg. One could argue that using birth control is the same. One could argue that every second of your life that you're not having a baby, you're depriving a child of life. You have to draw an arbitrary line to be against one of these and not one of the others.

"Eh, it's still on its way to developing into a human being just like you or I"

So is sperm, so masturbating should be forbidden :)
Oh, wait, for Christianity, IT IS !
Hmm... or maybe it's as soon as it gets the first neurons ? I guess slaughtering animals for food is wrong too !
Oh, wait, for PETA, IT IS !

We're just drawing arbitrary lines here.
While we're on the subject, how about we draw the line to the point where the BRAIN of the being is at least as capable of perceiving its surroundings at least as much as, say, a dog ?

Yes, that's why I drew an arbitrary line when I posted the first time. Re-read? A sperm is not developing into a human child, nor is an egg, until they are united and the cell begins splitting and growing.

I understand you two are eager to disprove anyone who posts, but please go back and re-read the original post before simply grabbing a line and jumping the gun. It will make you seem far more intelligent to spend a little time honing your talents in literacy.

"And what do you mean everyone in the world but me? Surely you don't think I'm the only person in the world that doesn't cling to belief of a god?"

I never said that you were. I said "You think everyone who believes in a god is crazy" which in turn implies that you *don't* belief that people who don't believe in God are crazy.
But if you all have the same belief, which is that everyone else not aligned to your thinking is 'insane', then you start looking a little fanatical. Your arguments sure do have some zealous displays of disbelief in God.

Sick:
Your anectdote has a second double meaning.

Look for God in everything around you, because he's trying to rescue you from your situation.

Perhaps he's trying been trying to tell you something, and you just haven't been listening.

I apologize for the snippiness, but PLEASE read my posts before arguing them.

I would go so far as to say there's no contest, embryos under 2 months old are NOT to be considered human beings. They don't even have a FACE yet ! Rule of thumb, if it starts having a face, it starts becoming human.
Before that, it's nothing more than a lump of cells that can be used in any possible way you want, including throwing it in the garbage.
By month 6 or so of pregnancy, that's when it starts getting weird and not so certain.

"Sick: Your anectdote has a second double meaning.
Look for God in everything around you, because he's trying to rescue you from your situation. "

Or much more likely, that you don't really need God if you just believe in yourself and do what's right for you regardless.

Well when we all live in "A Brave New World" don't blame me. I just hope I'm dead before it happens.

*Sigh* When will enough be enough folks? Agree to disagree and Let it Go.

I disagree, it's an embryo forming into a human. Whether it bears the same appearance or not, it always forms into a human, never a cat or dog or fish. Therefore, despite being in a very simple stage it is still human and can still be deprived of life.

A cluster of cells forming a human is still a human in the making. It depends on your viewpoint, as I mentioned earlier, but that's how I see it.

(I also mentioned earlier that in all honesty, this was a debate for another time or thread. We're rather off-topic here. I do appreciate an honest discussion, however, instead of the flamebaiting that's been going on here.)

" "I do not BELIEVE, instead I KNOW that all religions on the face of the planet are man-made." <- Sounds like you have the BURDEN OF PROOF on this lil' factoid.. "

Let's see... where should I start... the heavy recycling of themes in all current day religions ? The fact pretty much every religion contradicts most others ? The fact that the "holy books" of most religions even contradict THEMSELVES a lot ? The fact that the main thing religion is good for is control of the crowds by the clergy ? The fact that there are absolutely no miracles recorded by serious sources that can't be explained by science ? No, seriously, where should I start ?

Also, note what I said earlier... "KNOW" does not mean "100% certain". It simply means "with such a high probability that for all intents and purposes we could assume it is so".
You know, as contrasted by "BELIEVE" which is "I have absolutely no evidence, the probability of that being true might even be minimal, yet I still choose to think that's the truth".


You know, a couple hundred years ago there were a whole bunch of scientific theories going around that were regarded as true. They thought they had the whole fact, and they based their science on that fact. These were later all proven wrong by more current science, of course, but at the time, well. They were all sure as the sun in the sky that they were right.

Quantum physics can't yet be controlled by us, but does that mean it never will be? Or that it doesn't exist? Not really. According to your idea though, Anything that hasn't been Proven, can't be Real.

Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it's not true. I'm sure you'll start going off about PROOF and whatnot, but.. Science doesn't have all the answers. Heck, science even says that the odds of life happening are so astronomically low compared to the required conditions and the known planets that support it, that it's a miracle. Perhaps even proof that God exists.

But, I'm sure you've discounted that. Probably filed it under 'crack-pot scientist' or some such nonsense.

Titan...

Would living in a "Brave New World" society be so terrible?

You would be happy, 24/7/365...

I would not be happy, even though the book says everyone is happy. Most outside readers can see the evil in it, which is what it takes some time.

The funny thing is the higher the level of education in a country is, it usually correlates quite well with a lack of religious membership. That must speak volumes about why so many people in the USA still believe in a magic zombie. You should see some of Europe (especially France, Belgium, the Netherlands and all the nordic countries), if you go on the street and start talking about God, about half of the people WILL look at you as if you are crazy.

People don't really need religion, religion is a crutch for the weak-willed, unfortunate or simply the uneducated, and a wonderful tool for the power-seeker. In the history of mankind, religion has done far, far more damage than it has done any good. The sooner we rid the world of any religious belief by promoting rationality and common sense instead of some delusion or other, the better.

I dunno Titan, how is that fake happiness any different from the happiness we know today?

Ignorance is bliss, but in this case, brainwashing happiness is bliss too!

"The funny thing is the higher the level of education in a country is, it usually correlates quite well with a lack of religious membership."

Care to provide proof? It seems more like 'developed countries' than well-educated.

Warlord Zenai {CB1}, i didnt not see what you typed before i went to church so ill pray for her and ill get my church to pray for her tomorrow sorry i missed your request

could an admin close this thread

Wow, according to you I'm either 1) weak-willed 2) unfortunate 3) uneducated or 4) seeking power. Glad to see we're not insulting each other here.

"Science doesn't have all the answers."

Science doesn't have all the answers YET.
Religion wants all questions to remain unanswered FOREVER.


"Heck, science even says that the odds of life happening are so astronomically low compared to the required conditions and the known planets that support it, that it's a miracle."

Actually, science says the odds that life would happen BY MERE CHANCE given the likely conditions on this planet and the estimated duration of those particular conditions are actually quite high.
We covered this subject not so long ago, on this very forum.
Just google Miller Urey experiment if you want more info.
Yes, we're not 100% certain of that either, we don't know for sure what the conditions were nor how long they were maintained, but the fact remains, saying "science says the odds are astronomically low" is not just incorect, it's downright malicious.

"Wow, according to you I'm either 1) weak-willed 2) unfortunate 3) uneducated"

Can you prove you're not 1) ? :P
You are required to respect my belief that you are so !

As per lotien's request, this thread is closed. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson about debating religion on CB.