What if older players could get a NUB again ? (in General)
June 17 2009 8:51 AM EDT
Of course, the NUB would come with some... restrictions.
For instance, you would not be allowed to have sold anything for real cash in the past... say, one year ? (or maybe, EVER?)
Also, you are not allowed to BUY anything with real cash until your NUB is over.
And last but not least, ALL your characters and possessions at the time you request a NUB would be completely wiped.
What do you think : fair or unfair ?
June 17 2009 8:55 AM EDT
well.. i dont think its gonna work..
but maybe if you havnt been playing for a long time.. like a year or so you could get your account reset ?
June 17 2009 8:58 AM EDT
June 17 2009 9:00 AM EDT
Well, some people might have gotten a NUB in the past, one year or two year old players are still "older", not just the people that started on day one... so, yeah, "again" :)
June 17 2009 9:06 AM EDT
I say if you want the cash benefit of a NUB, allow users to do a full reset and lose everything to start over from the beginning. It's not very appealing unless you really screwed up your NUB, but it will hopefully curtail the issue of multiple accounts.
what if we could all just pick what mpr we want, what gear and gear levels and who wouldn't be able to beat us! that would be the most awesome thing in the history of...ever!
June 17 2009 9:34 AM EDT
He is typing about restarting with nothing.
Nothing but knowledge. And considering we have plenty of multis with the same knowledge it is something to consider.
Given that the rolling bonus will not get enacted, this may be a way to give older players renewed interest in the game.
We made this lottery system to try to keep players, what about doing this to keep older players?
June 17 2009 9:42 AM EDT
yea.. i just started all over.. i had nothing when i started my ncb, bought a few items for USD. wouldnt have had to buy items for RL money if i could have gotten a reset and nub
I think that it would require not having transferred anything to anyone else for the last ... three (maybe six) months? However, I'd be all for it.
Then again, we could just do a rescale every six months. :p
June 17 2009 9:44 AM EDT
I'm not sure fair or unfair come into it, but I would like the chance to see what the NUB is actually like, considering I never had one in the first place, like quite a few of us actually.
June 17 2009 9:58 AM EDT
June 17 2009 10:07 AM EDT
Interesting Idea. Infact one that I would have enjoyed to be honest. I was around before the N*B system came into play so far I am liking and hating it. The NUB experience is one that I think I would enjoy.
However, a thought does come to mind. What is to stop a old player from sending their uber items to someone before they ask for the reset,(or for a year)for a minimal storage fee? .Then when they get back pay off the Storage fees and pwn the ranks.
I apologize but this has abuse written in big neon letters all over it. If it were tweaked then it would have potential. As of right I give it a big fat NO.
June 17 2009 10:19 AM EDT
"I say if you want the cash benefit of a NUB"
I need some clarification. What ARE the differences between a NUB and an NCB?
I thought the cash bonus to the NUB had been done away with and kinda folded into the whole FREE BA thingy.
Anywho, yeah from way over there (pointing to somewhere far) I saw that big neon sign as well. Especially as tracking RL cash sales are kinda hard. Actually, impossible if both parties are in on it. Sure the already busy Admins would be able to see strange and one sided transactions, but what of proof?
"No, I did not SELL him/her/it that 10 mil cb for cash. I gave it to him/her/it cause they helped me so much/it's a long term loan/I gave it to h/h/i cause I'm not gonna play anymore (read until I can NUB again)"
I'm sure there is another way.
HUH? oh, no, I don't know what it is. Sorry.
Not until we end player to player xfers.
I have to give a BIG NO to this. I don't see what you all like about the NUB so much either. If it is money you can get more from staying at 100% challenge bonus. If it is about getting the highest possible in the ranks. There are tricks to the NCB that will allow you to get higher than a NUB ever will. Provided an NCB is much more expensive but it has a higher potential.
June 17 2009 10:55 AM EDT
"There are tricks to the NCB that will allow you to get higher than a NUB ever will."
As the NUB and NCB give the exact same xp rewards. The only difference between the 2 are the free BA the NUB gets as well as the increased money rewards.
The growth of 2 such characters should be closely identical. Perhaps in the beginning the NCB, using equipment you have, may grow a bit more. But unless you buy BA every day, the NUB will likely outgrow the NCB in most realities.
It is possible to get 200k mpr on the first day of an NCB. Also a nub will most likely not get into a clan during their first week. So all of that time an NCB will get ahead. There is also the ability to have someone else start the NCB and burn it at exp time. Then you burn at the next NCB. This will have you over 500k mpr in the first week. Those are ways to get ahead that the NUB can't do. And if they do then they most likely aren't NUBs.
June 17 2009 11:01 AM EDT
I think it's snazzy.
June 17 2009 11:05 AM EDT
yes the NCB can have a distinct advantage the first month.
And as you say, IF they buy all their BA, they likely will keep it.
However, who has 90-120M to buy all the BA during a NCB run? I think things likely even out or the NUB gets further ahead.
I am looking the most recent NUB and NCBs. The top ones.
Rawr vs Dudemus. Rawr got far further then Dude.
This is antedotal information though. And if a NCB buys all their BA, with advantages of storing 1600 BA etc.., they may get to 4M or so MPR without minion buying.
June 17 2009 11:17 AM EDT
You should know well that the "Single Minion" character used those techniques... and look where it got him with the NCB. On the other hand, look where the character "FTW" is, and remember he was a NUB.
The NUB gets cash rewards higher than a NCB... rewards that are supposedly equivalent to those he gets for XP MINUS the cash that would be needed to buy the daily BA. Basically, a NUB gets right now a bit more than double the cash rewards a NCB of same stats gets. A NCB gets no cash bonus whatsoever AND has to buy all BA manually.
So, while a NCB earns under half a mil CB$ a day at best, while requiring several million CB$ just to buy the BA (therefore experiencing several million CB$ drain on a daily basis if he wishes to keep up with a NUB), the NUB gets all those BA pre-purchased AND also earns more than a mil CB$ per day at best.
Let's say I look at my own character... I barely have over 80 mil NW on it in gear, plus a large tattoo that's about the size it would be if it would have grown from zero on my character.
Would I start a NCB and convert ALL my NW into CB$, I would very likely run out of cash before the end of one third of the run, and have absolutely nothing of value on my character... while the NUB that started at the same time and put in the exact same amount of effort would have probably lagged behind for a week or two, but meanwhile overtaken me, and he gets four additional months of heavy growth, while I would limp behind.
Yes, if I would waste 2000-3000 USD or so on purchasing CB$ and use them to buy all BA and ramp up my gear, then with my experience I'd probably beat the heck out of the NUB with my NCB... but that's a price far, far above what I'm even realistically considering.
I've never purchased nor sold even one single item nor CB$ for real-life money, and I don't plan to start now. I also don't plan to start cheating by creating a NUB pretending to be somebody else while quitting my current account. Nor anything like that. That doesn't mean I have to like it, does it ? Nor does it mean I find it fair, isn't that right ?
But if I would be given a FAIR AND LEGAL chance at a new start, I'd take it in a split second... even if it means abandoning absolutely everything else I worked for in this game EXCEPT my name.
June 17 2009 11:22 AM EDT
what do you mean with older players? 50+ of age? ;p
June 17 2009 11:23 AM EDT
"Yes, if I would waste 2000-3000 USD"
More like 500-600USD, let's not get tooo carried away. *smile*
the only way i would ever agree to this is if as part of the switch, you also got transfers locked on that account forever. no money could ever be transferred to or from that character forever. no items could ever be transferred as well, except through auctions. with auctions you would also need some way of keeping people from listing things just for these characters with a low buy now in the middle of the night. you would also need some way of keeping people from throwing things in the stores for them, so that would need to be worked out as well.
if all of those things were done, then i think this idea would work for me at least. ;)
June 17 2009 11:30 AM EDT
"the NUB gets all those BA pre-purchased AND also earns more than a mil CB$ per day at best"
A bit of exaggeration with 1 mil per day... I'd say half that. Don't forget that NUBs also got hit with the 20% loss.
June 17 2009 11:30 AM EDT
Well, anything that would prevent selling out and restarting as a NUB to exploit this for profit would obviously be not only recommended, but necessary, sure.
It's only about a fair chance at a genuine new start at a high price.
"It's only about a fair chance at a genuine new start at a high price."
funnily enough, that is still exactly the way i would describe the ncb.
sounds like tourney rules. :)
June 17 2009 11:33 AM EDT
"A bit of exaggeration with 1 mil per day"
Only if half a mil per day on a regular/NCB character is also an even bigger exaggeration... NUBs do get roughly more than double the cash rewards of a regular player with similar stats.
June 17 2009 11:34 AM EDT
I think the NUBs got hit with worse than a 20% loss. They lost 20% of 400% or 80% if our assumptions are correct about how it works.
And they get the same drop rate as the rest of us.
But the potential for abuse is quite high, given someone could just run NUBs every 6 months, sell out and start again.
IF this is to be considered, and I doubt Jon or NS even will read this thread, restrictions as Dude stated are the minimum.
June 17 2009 11:39 AM EDT
" "It's only about a fair chance at a genuine new start at a high price."
funnily enough, that is still exactly the way i would describe the ncb."
So how exactly is having to spend 100-150 mil CB$ just to purchase the same amount of BA a NUB gets "for free" fair exactly ? Also, the NCB would earn about 50-75 mil CB$ during his 6 months, while the NUB would earn 100-150 mil CB$. The NCB ends up with a MINUS of 50-75 mil, the NUB ends up with a PLUS of 100-150 mil.
That's a 150-225 mil CB$ difference between them, for a similar endpoint.
I don't even have half the bottom estimate CB$ equivalent on me, and I've been playing for one year and a half.
So tell me, how exactly is a NCB a "fair chance of a genuine restart" then... when COMPARED to the NUB ?
June 17 2009 11:41 AM EDT
Not to go off topic, but I just ran a handful of fights and monitored by NUB cash. I ranged from 475-1000 over about a dozen fights. Assuming the average stays around 737, that's means:
$737 X (576 natural BA per day + 192 free buy-in) = $566k
Obviously wacky cash time would bump it up, but I think my half a mil guess is fair.
June 17 2009 11:42 AM EDT
You are assumed by those in power to have accumulated that much wealth already from your past NUB and playing time.
Just look at the NW of NWO and the current cash PoisoN has. He has spent 0 USD except for perhaps a couple supporter items and supportership. Discount the tattoo as the NUB should grow his to about the same level. Just look at Rawr's tattoo to confirm this.
The NUB is supposed to allow you to duplicate what that character has done, and perhaps a bit more in the MPR department as FTW is that standard.
June 17 2009 11:44 AM EDT
Add 20% as that is the expected value of the drops you will receive.
20% to what I am still unsure of, but there is a 20% factor in there somehow.
And if you have not gotten drops, that does not matter as it all is expected to equilibrate over time.
What time you ask? Nobody knows. Could be weeks, months or years.
June 17 2009 11:46 AM EDT
Say you take my example, dudemus.
I am an acount that _NEVER_ sold any CB$ nor items for cash, which could easily be established by looking at all my past transactions and transfers - every cash or item transfer I ever made was for an item or cash amount of similar value, never unilaterally transferring anything without a very good reason... heck, I even gave away for free my supporter item to the benefactors that paid my supportership as the result of a contest.
If I would want to start a NCB, if I would convert each and every last bit of gear on me into CB$, I'd be _VERY_ lucky to get 100 mil CB$, tops. I would have to sink in every last CB$ I make on the NCB to purchase BA, and end up with a next to no networth character somewhere in the mid-6/20, as opposed to a 80 mil gear NW character in the high-7/20... which would also mean my tactical options would be severely limited to teams that AVOID the need for any high-NW gear, as I couldn't possibly afford it.
So, dudemus - would you not agree that in such a condition, wiping out everything I have right now and granting me the favor of starting over as a NUB would be a much fairer chance at a new start ?
June 17 2009 11:48 AM EDT
One can just look to what was once typed by someone in charge:
"You had your chance, and blew it".
I think that states all that needs to be about an idea of regaining a NUB.
While in the right situations it would be a nice thing, a Rolling Bonus would be far better, less restrictive and much more fair.
Rolling Bonus, chant it, live it, love it!!!
June 17 2009 11:53 AM EDT
Of course, I am all for a Rolling Bonus, if the powers that be wouldn't be so insufferably stubborn as to refuse a RB, this thread would not even have a point.
Also, how exactly would the "you had your chance but blew it" apply ?
I was forced by real-life issues (related, but not restricted to medical issues) to abandon my NUB run after a couple of weeks, then only manage to put in some work again when the NUB was almost over.
I could have quit the game when that was still possible (just let my non-supporter account expire) and restarted as a NUB half a year later, but I persisted, and tried a NCB... didn't work out that well, but it worked to some mediocre degree.
How exactly is that appropriate, me being indirectly punished for being as honest as humanly possible ? And then, being told "I blew my chance", that's enough to make some people go into a rage mode.
June 17 2009 11:59 AM EDT
I never have advocated that response, but it is what was given to us by Jon.
You had your chance and blew it.
It think all that needs to be stated can be inferred by that message.
Again, I do not and never have agreed with it. But it is what it is.
June 17 2009 12:04 PM EDT
And for all those who doubt what was typed:
The exact words:
AdminJonathan September 29 2005 3:37 PM EDT
You had your chance.
You just wasted it.
June 17 2009 12:21 PM EDT
As with any evolving thing, such as this game, change can happen. Time can open different doors, 2005 was a long time ago. Maybe that is still the case, or maybe... :)
June 17 2009 12:22 PM EDT
In all fairness, that was from '05. He might be more responsive by now.
June 17 2009 12:22 PM EDT
Darn you Kevlar and your faster typing
June 17 2009 12:26 PM EDT
Considering the current administration views on the Rolling Bonus, I would say not much has changed.
I do, however, hope for the benefit of the game it does.
More posts like this one, civil and not antagonistic, can only encourage discussion and perhaps change peoples opinions.
in cb1 there was no catch up bonus at all. you could play for years and still not break into the top fifty players.
in cb2 after a certain amount of time we got the nub. it was a way for new players to catch up to vets both in mpr and cash. many vets asked for a similar bonus.
jon then gave us the ncb. besides stating what ranger already has, jon also stated that it wasn't meant to be easy and would require planning.
asking for an easier option goes against everything jon has ever stated about the ncb. could it still happen? sure, but i wouldn't hold my breath.
as for being fair, it is all much fairer than in cb1 where there was no option.
the true irony is that as we have made things easier in cb land, our population has steadily declined. as i asked in another thread, "have we made it so easy that it takes away any sense of accomplishment?" for that reason i think it is easy enough as is and we should just accept what we have as it could be worse.
June 17 2009 1:06 PM EDT
Honestly I feel that a rescale of the NCB to reflect changes in CB Land should be done. The Clan MPR/VPR was just regulated for the same reason.
I think there should be a yearly list to go by and check. If said thing is outmoded then it should be recoded or rescaled. I know this is a lot of work but, once a year shouldn't kill. Maybe do a Poll to see what the community thinks before putting in a ton of work and getting no appreciation would be prudent.
Just a thought.
June 17 2009 2:09 PM EDT
"the true irony is that as we have made things easier in cb land, our population has steadily declined."
That is the main problem and concern.
Perhaps as stated we have made things too easy for new players. It alienates older players who have no chance to catch up unless they want to sell everything and try a NCB.
And new players when the NUB is over get such a shock going to normal rewards.
And the new lottery does not help much at all. At least not promote keeping players as it is a Sum Zero equation.
Fair, you want fair---Rolling Bonus. That would make vets happier having a chance to slowly catch up, while new players would not have such a drastic cut in rewards after the NUB is over.
And of course fixing things such as the tutorial to make coming into CB seamless.
June 17 2009 4:36 PM EDT
Too easy for new players that know what they're doing, maybe.
But also insanely frustrating for new players in the learning process, that eventually realize just how much they missed by not doing something very specific at the very start.
June 17 2009 4:40 PM EDT
How about this compromise then :
NUB and NCB value is set at +150%, NCB BA cost set at double the normal BA cost, duration varies (gets longer) as the game progresses and top MPR rises.
June 17 2009 4:58 PM EDT
So if the game goes on for 25 years, it takes 5 years to catch up... Doesn't look promising for new players.
June 17 2009 5:08 PM EDT
To give a reply to the original post.... I would willingly give all of my items and money to Tourney Prizes for a chance to actually play a NUB. For those who didn't know, I played mine for two weeks and then had to go away for about a year.
ranger you are preaching to the choir! ; )
i have been behind the rolling bonus since we first heard of some type of catchup bonus as this is what i hoped would be implemented.
i do think that is the best option out there, but tend to ignore it now as just a dream.
June 17 2009 5:31 PM EDT
same as silva - I would take a full reset in a heartbeat, having wasted most of my NUB on RL.
can't imagine that giving this option would be great for the economy, though - huge influx of cash, if rewards stay as they are.
so, flounder with a crappy character until I can save enough money for an NCB?
June 17 2009 5:33 PM EDT
That is one of the reason I am really pushing for a rolling bonus.
If you messup your NUB, now your hosed.
But with a RB, you at least have some bonus and if you play over time you will progress through the ranks.
It has to be a good idea if both myself, dudemus and most of CB are wanting something like it.
June 17 2009 5:34 PM EDT
Yeah Noone, that's what I'm doing. Trying to save up enough money and get the right items to be able to run a solid NCB.
June 17 2009 7:02 PM EDT
"so, flounder with a crappy character until I can save enough money for an NCB?"
Actually, in your particular case, since you're not even breaking 1 mil MPR, even a no-cash, no-BA-purchased NCB would be a vast improvement over your current character.
I estimate that a NCB that starts with just 160 BA, only burns about 80% of its BA and purchases none would still manage to get somewhere over 2 mil MPR, probably even closer to 2.5 mil MPR.
It's when you try to get anywhere higher than the lowest of 6/20 range that you start having problems with BA cost and such things.
June 17 2009 7:04 PM EDT
"I estimate that a NCB that starts with just 160 BA, only burns about 80% of its BA and purchases none would still manage to get somewhere over 2 mil MPR, probably even closer to 2.5 mil MPR."
That is fairly close to what I have going on, did not start with 1600, I burn ~500 a day and have not bought BA...
Right now I am at 1.9M MPR with 5 weeks to go...
Also this character is the highest MPR I have ever gotten to...
June 17 2009 7:12 PM EDT
Well, if you would have been a NUB, you wouldn't be looking at 1.9 mil MPR, you'd have been closer to 2.2 mil MPR now, and also have earned an additional 100 mil CB$ or so on top of what you have already earned.
June 17 2009 7:34 PM EDT
I was providing proof for your estimation...
I do not think NUBs should be handed out...
June 17 2009 7:42 PM EDT
I don't ever expect to get a NUB again, and I cannot imagine Jonathan even considering the idea, given that he feels a non-cash bonus that requires constant competition (rather than only 6 months) is too lazy.
Personally, I don't want a new NUB. I just want to see older characters capable of being competitive again. Some of us like the idea of keeping just one team, instead of throwing them away again and again and again for a shot at the top.
What pains me about all this is the simple fact that if someone were to set out to run a specialized team specifically to get a 100% chal bonus against high score/pr chars (still no solid word on what actually sets base rewards, unless you believe Jon, which I rarely do) and create their own bonus like was done over and over on CB1.
The only thing keeping your original chars from being in 6/20 is you.
June 17 2009 7:52 PM EDT
I happen to 100% agree with OB.
Something other than restarting with a NCB and having to start from scratch all over again.
Something to make older characters fun as some of us do form a weird type of attachment to them.
June 17 2009 9:19 PM EDT
Well, most of us (except a few people... but sadly Jon is among them) agree that a mild-value persistent rolling bonus would be the best alternative... but since THAT idea is constantly rejected... all we can do is come up with other alternatives that might hit closer to "home" (i.e. Jon's desires) than a RB.
June 18 2009 12:40 AM EDT
novice - so you believe specialization, which has further hindered rewards moreso in CB2 than in CB1 due to the PR/MPR change and the introduction of tattoos (hm, and PR weighting depending on the team, especially if you want to use a wall) - is capable of bringing your team into competitiveness purely by itself? Even including the periodic jump in the #1 MPR due to a highly successful N*B run and hire combo?
I think it _might_ could pull you into 6/20 after a couple years work, but I do not think you could gain further than that. Consider that in CB1, there was no 6/* or */20...you could actually make a little ground against people by burning more BA, by dedicating more time (gasp, how dare we reward that.)
June 18 2009 12:43 AM EDT
I forgot, I should probably mention for those not in the know since it's been a little while since that change...BA formerly came in 10 minute increments, and getting only 6 at a time is a change as well. Once upon a time you could gain an advantage in burning BA by burning more often than 2.5x/day.
June 18 2009 1:14 AM EDT
Ask Flamey how long it took to gain just 50k when at the border of 6 and 7 regeneration zones.
Then after you make it, do you keep that specialized character or unlearn for a better overall team?
Taking the top on CB1 was based entirely on fighting well and often, it took up to a year and half to build a char capable of getting into the CB1 version of 6/20 (the top 10) but it was possible. Most of the pieces that allowed that still exist here. Balance and adjustments to rewards have made it harder, I'll admit, but it's still possible.
Flamey was running a very balanced setup and had challenge bonuses between 0 and negative 10 if I remember correctly. The current system isn't perfect, but it's a heck of lot better than a permanent bonus system. I see the rolling bonus as another increment on the road to the too easy no fun version of carnage blender.
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