Random drops and players leaving. (in General)


QBJohnnywas July 22 2009 7:59 AM EDT

OK, we're nearly two months into this. CB$ prices are actually dropping not rising (the opposite of what a lot of people were predicting would happen), and rare item prices seem to be stable. In that respect the sky hasn't fallen.

And yet people are saying the drop idea is leading to them leaving CB. Why? If you're one of the people thinking of giving up CB because of it, why are you considering it?

FailBoat[SG] July 22 2009 8:16 AM EDT

I'd like to run a Non-USD Tank.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] July 22 2009 8:18 AM EDT

Can't seem to blame people who are leaving CB because of this. The cash drop is hard and is not compensated and for some people it is well compensated.

But the majority of CB this change is horrible. And since it takes longer and longer to save up the needed cash for an NCB run.

I suggest reduced BA cost for the NCB instead of increased BA cost to compensate this.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] July 22 2009 8:29 AM EDT

I like the fact that the change is hard on people who constantly want to run NCB's, it should be a ridiculous pain in the backside for the new chance at an assault on the top.
What I don't like is the fact that I was happily trundling along towards buying a minion in a few months and now I'd have to not buy my BA in order to have a hope of catching the cost while sacrificing clan points and therefore more bonus.
I'm not going to leave because of the change but I'm feeling more and more like the game is just a chore than a decent time waster when all I get for the loss of a few million is a lesser FF which is barely worth 10k.

Daz July 22 2009 8:43 AM EDT

"it should be a ridiculous pain in the backside for the new chance at an assault on the top. "

Why?
I don't follow.

I've been here since day one and I'm never going to have a chance at getting into the 6 BA regen area. That really makes me want to stick around.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 22 2009 8:47 AM EDT

we were at 226 active users when this change came out and we are now at 222 active users. our numbers did dip down to just under 210 in the last couple of weeks though.

summer has always been a strange population time though and the population fluctuates quite a bit during the vacation months.

{cb2}Dinh July 22 2009 9:02 AM EDT

Admit it was a bad change and fix it...It's no secret that we (well, the ones who haven't gotten 6 drops, or ANY AT ALL) do not like this change, and since we're the ones who log in more than once a week, it should be us who decide whether it stays or goes.

Ranger, maybe it would help to make a thread saying you're leaving the game because of this change...that actually seems gets things done...my two cents

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 22 2009 9:08 AM EDT

"I've been here since day one and I'm never going to have a chance at getting into the 6 BA regen area. That really makes me want to stick around."

you are going to have to explain that one to me. running an ncb with no money put into it, other than the battle rewards, should get you to the 6/10 zone easily. you do need to hit most of your ba though.

OverKill July 22 2009 9:16 AM EDT

i've gotten 1 item and i like this system. i think it is very original. what i do think is cost of BA needs to be reduced to be more in line with the rewards. btw the item i got was an elven stilletto so no i didn't let my thought get clouded by that.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 22 2009 9:19 AM EDT

Jhnny, I think it's something like this;

The majority of existing non NUB player don't need any rares they don't already have now (unless it strat changing time...).

They need cash for either BA costs or tem upgrading (to stay competitive, and those unlucky players on a NCB need both, and a lot of it).

Instead, there has been a global cash reduction, and the chance to maybe get a Rare to compensate.

As long as it's not a lesser tattoo, GoM or ES (or any other none expensive rare you're likely to get).

CB Rewards are now becoming a lottery, which has *nothing* to do with the Strategy Game CB is supposed to be.

How can you compete, when you get (all randomly of course) the short end of the stick and either no drops, or some of the aboe mentioned cheap ones. When your competitiors are getting Corns, and Spellboosters.

Letting them (in essence, as they've won the CB lottery) upgrade thier equipment above yours, due to them getting your share of the CB cash cow.

That's it in a nutshell really.

Flamey July 22 2009 9:20 AM EDT

I run a non-USD tank and I got to 100k with my NUB and I got in the 6/20 regen. In fact I can't even upgrade my MH because it puts me over my ENC. So, really daz and silva, you guys aren't trying hard enough.

JW and nov can vouch for me.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 9:22 AM EDT

If I were to leave (I doubt I will) it would be purely on a consistency standpoint. The drop system doesn't match anything the game has ever had (except previous aspects intentionally removed over the years.) It is easier to must do an upside/downside on this:

Upsides Of Drop System:
-- Rush of getting a drop. (a lot of people are already over this, though)
-- Getting an item that could make you think, "Hey, I might give that a try!" I tried an exbow for that very reason.
-- Chance of making a lot of cash in a short time.
-- Could draw in a new player with the "SHINY!" aspect.

Downsides Of Drop System:
-- Chance of not getting any drops for a long period of time, or getting worthless drops. We now know that this is very possible. losing 20% of cash flow for a month is a problem.
-- No chance of consistent cash flow, at least not in comparison to before the 20% reduction in cash rewards. Even if you do get drops, you cannot anticipate when or how valuable the drop will be.
-- Money management is now that much more of a crap-shoot, so players good at that aspect of the game have 20% less consistent flow to play with.
-- The drop system is a randomness within a game where randomness has been systematically removed over time.
-- Could turn off a new player with, "Why am I not getting anything and other people are?"

Let's add in a complete lack of any knowledge as to why the change was made:

-- No one ever asked for a cash flow drop accompanied by an enforced lottery. Now, people HAVE asked for drops, and we should have known Jonathan wouldn't give it out as a free lunch, but I am not sure anyone would have ever asked for the current system, would they?
-- There has been speculation, but we don't really know, that the drop system is meant for new player retention. Can anyone provide the logic why, at the very best case, the two points about new players listed above don't simply cancel out? A lottery system isn't new, and turns off just as many people as it elates. We are clearly seeing that here.
-- There has been speculation, but we don't really know, that Jonathan WANTS less cash in the game. I sure hope that isn't the case, because that doesn't make sense. Tanks already have a hard time, and NW is difficult to amass on ANY team. Making that even harder is just begging for USD to step in.

I have seen lots of changes in CB over the years, and my first litmus test for any change is to see if it is consistent with the rest of the game. Forging, for example, was entirely consistent because it was all brand new value-add. A whole new dimension to the game. Clans, for example, were consistent in that a lot of folks had asked for such a system, and when Jonathan builds something into the game, he integrates it. I despise clans, and there "have to do it for the bonus" nature, but can fully understand why others like them and how it looks good as a bullet point on a game sheet.

But this drop system has none of that. It isn't new, it isn't consistent, and the upsides of it have clear, just as likely opposites on the downside list. And no one has put forth any real support of the idea that I have seen, other than "This is the way Jonathan wants it, so let's see what it does for retention." (which is pure speculation in the first place).

Sadly, even if this were reversed now, some folks would have received several million dollars (including me) while others would have received nothing. So I don't see how it can be reversed equitably.

All of this is coming from a guy who has received 5+ drops. So if you think I have some sort of unnatural bias against this drop system, you would definitely need to illustrate how that is even remotely possible.

Lefty July 22 2009 9:23 AM EDT

"I run a non-USD tank and I got to 100k with my NUB"

100k What?

FailBoat[SG] July 22 2009 9:40 AM EDT

Flamey 9:20 AM EDT
I run a non-USD tank and I got to 100k with my NUB and I got in the 6/20 regen. In fact I can't even upgrade my MH because it puts me over my ENC. So, really daz and silva, you guys aren't trying hard enough.

I'm attempting to make one right now Flamey. And don't give me this hub-bub about your NUB only getting so far because mine didn't get much further ahead.

With the current cash loss, saving up the money to make a solo Archer viable without some kind of back up pre-1.5mil MPR seems like a pain. Zenai has shown that its possible but again, he started his Archer pre-Lottery and I have no clue if he is USD or not.

Heck, I'm out of debt, I have everything I need to run my NCB save for a HoC but you know what is holding me back? The 50-75mil I'd like to have stocked up to put my ELB along the Enc line for a while. Pre-Lottery, I would of had that in 6-8months. Now, I barely make 1mil a week and this character I have currently isn't growing fast enough due to being in debt for most of it and having no gear.

QBJohnnywas July 22 2009 9:46 AM EDT

ToA +ELB with investment only into the X. Much cheaper way of running things.

QBJohnnywas July 22 2009 9:50 AM EDT

Also all investment into the X means lower PR, which means better rewards.

Add to that a single minion can get a lot of HP and ST, which means enc is nothing to worry about. I'm at the upper end of things but with 7 mill HP and 9 mill ST I have an enc limit of over 500 million NW. That's pretty damn big for any bow.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 9:50 AM EDT

Well, we can just get down to brass tacks, Siva, and say if it would have taken you 6-8 months before, it will now take 20% longer than that, depending on drops, or more like 7.5 to 9.5 months.

It can be done, but the problem lies with the fact that cash doesn't grow with experience enough, as you pointed out in your ENC comments.

I just don't want to lose sight of the fact that 20% isn't THAT much, but it just adds insult to injury as far as tanks are concerned, and if there is no good reason for it, I wouldn't care if were even less, like 5%. Heck, 1% is too much when it is an entirely capricious game change. Rewards are the most fundamental part of strategy and planning, and should have no random components built in (other than standard variance in actual reward numbers -- that is guaranteed to level out even in a very short period of time.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 9:54 AM EDT

JW, your salient points and excellent tank-tactic mind aside, how is ANY randomization of rewards a good thing for CB?

What is the upside? And by upside, I mean something of real benefit to at least a majority of players in the game. So, claiming retention or that people like the rush of drops are already invalid points -- just as many people DON'T think retention will be helped, and just as many people have a "gah, finally!" view even when they do get drops.

And that's not even counting the folks who have yet to see one.

In summary, to reverse your original post, "Why would the drop system be something to keep someone around?"

Kong Ming July 22 2009 9:57 AM EDT

I think people are leaving for a variety of reasons. Here are some:
1) Unable to compete effectively (NCB too expensive to run, tanks are too expensive to run which leads to narrow choice of strategy)
2) Drop in monetary rewards which aggravates the previous)
3) Sense of unfairness in the current reward drop system?
4) I find the game getting too complicated for newbies.
5) Game is very dependant on tat and big ones are not cheap to get?

Just my thoughts though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 22 2009 9:59 AM EDT

"The drop system doesn't match anything the game has ever had (except previous aspects intentionally removed over the years.)"

all that we have is speculation sut, unless someone has been tracking things over a period of years. i assume you meant camping in the quoted statement?

we know that camping was a random part of this game that was removed due to the exploiting. at that time many honest campers threatened to quit. since that time our population has dropped steadily. that is actually speculation on my part, i didn't start to really watch population until the ba regen change, but one of the stated reasons for that change was player retention, so we do know that jon was concerned about some trend that started before the ba regen change.

the biggest change i can remember with the biggest community outcry was the change to camping. jon probably has better stats and more info than we do as well or at least i hope so, but if removing randomness from the game caused a population decline, then adding it back into the game might be just what is needed to reverse that trend or at least worthy of an attempt.

consistency can be different depending on how far back you go in cb history as you yourself hinted at in your quote. furthermore, what is the goal with a game such as this? i think that longevity requires players rather than consistency defined over a certain historical period within the game.

for this reason, i am all for jon trying new things in hopes of retaining and growing the population and wiling to put up with some inconveniences along the way. i forgot to state it earlier, but just to show why i think anything needs to be tried, when i started watching population regularly after the ba regen change, we were at around 376, if i recall correctly.

QBRanger July 22 2009 10:03 AM EDT

Well unfortunately Jon has not chimed in on why this new system was enacted.

So therefore constructive informed conversation by the players is impossible. It would be spectacular to actually know why such a system was in play, but until we know why, or at least have a good idea why, this is all speculation and wasting time.

There are other reason aside for the ones Sut put in as to why it was in place, however, without information from the top, posts like this get nowhere.

Perhaps someone can actually ask Jon nicely to state why this system is in play and then we can chat effectively about it.

All I can say is "yes, the price of CB is going way down". However it is due to a lot of people selling out. Why they are, I have no idea. Perhaps asking them would be a good idea.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 10:08 AM EDT

Examples of randomness being removed from the game, roughly in the order it happened:

-- FoD being removed because it could randomly allow a small character to take out a huge one.
-- Cause Fear being removed because it wasn't unique enough (EC did a lot of the same things, and CF was just basically a damage reducer, so Jonathan canned it.)
-- Cast rates being removed from the game. Used to be your AMF and such had a chance of not casting at all, Jonathan canned that.
-- Allowing intrinsics to be untrained, and making the penalty to retrain more consistent (used to have three tiers of penalties, I think, now there are only two).
-- Removing the bank, because it was just the same for everyone, and DID just pump more money into the game for no good reason.
-- Removing camping.
-- Making experience train at 12 experience per level across the board.

These aren't all about randomness, but they are about consistency. The fundamentals of the game have actually been made less random and more streamlined over time.

Then, out of the blue, with no one really asking for this particular lottery implementation, we get roughly 20% randomness on the cash side of rewards, the most fundamental point of the game. If you were to say experience and cash were 50/50 as far as reward importance, that means a 20% randomness in cash means a 10% randomness in rewards, overall.

Again, 10% is not much. But if there is no pragmatic upside to it (still waiting for someone to say something other than, "I just like it."), then that is 10% too much.

QBJohnnywas July 22 2009 10:08 AM EDT

Sut,

Where rewards are concerned, they might be lower, but somebody starting today won't know the difference. And as far as I'm concerned, I may have gotten 20% more previously and I don't now, but I don't actually consider it a loss. I just get a different amount of 'reward'. But then I don't consider cash rewards a wage for my character like some people do. BA costs for NCBs were always ridiculously high anyway and most people have never had the cash (without using USD or clever merchant skills) to boost weapons to the sky high levels of the biggest weapons.

I'm just interested in the reasoning behind it, after a reasonable amount of time to see how things are going, especially given that some of the previous negatives about it haven't actually happened.

And your very consistent viewpoint on randomness aside, a hell of a lot of the view against the drop system still feels like whining.

However, if people are considering leaving because of it then I feel we should definitely be looking at the reasons why, because player retention is far more important than who got what or how much cash people have..

I don't think the drop system is an answer to player retention, anymore than increasing rewards would be either. The structure of the game itself, the rapid growth that you can carry out, followed by the plateau of constant grinding with no real reward at the top other than the status is probably more to do with our lack of growth and retention than anything else.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 22 2009 10:17 AM EDT

i just did some looking to see what our active user for seven days count has been over time. during 2005 it was around 800 to 900. jon even made a statement at one point that we would get around 1000 new users a week.

i wish i had time to go through lammy's econ reports and make a line chart with active users.

i also wonder if our steady user base was always fairly small and what has dried up is the amount of new users per week? so many questions, so little time...

Demigod July 22 2009 10:26 AM EDT

How about lack of advertising? In CB1, one player (Max?) managed to get an internet browser shortcut that linked to CB on a huge software download site. The rest of the community then went to the site and gave it high reviews, drawing in new players.

Half of the retention argument is drawing in new players, but I haven't seen ANY marketing. None.

Neo Japan July 22 2009 10:26 AM EDT

Definetly Tat dependent. I have 3 minions and a hal that I got ALL at the same time, beginning, and all have lvled up without ever untraining, and I have an Archer with an ELB and ALL Elven gear and BoE, and the Hal is Kicking that chars butt when it comes to stats, damage, multi hits, everything.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 22 2009 10:26 AM EDT

Well allow me to chime in.

Point one, when I was camping I never left a rare in the store if I could avoid it. No matter how "worthless" it was. I may have tried to get that "worthless" camp for HOURS and that was all I got. There was a rush regardless of the lesser tattoo or the corn I was grabbing for.

Point two, there was a trade off, BA to camp or BA to fight. This may have been my forte, balancing the use of BA to camp and fight. I had a knack for knowing when to start looking into the store and when to not bother. Was I 100% not a chance, but I didn't miss too many opportunities for gear while I was fighting.

Point three, it appears the main point of contention in all this is the trade off. What do I get, what does it cost me.

Point four, I agree with Sut in general, but at the same time applaud this attempt to add a camping like dimension to the game. Lets say for honesty sake, if camping was returned full time, I would likely as well.

Point five, I think the biggest outcry ever made may have been when NW started to affect PR. I must have made 50 long winded posts in opposition to such a thing, I think camping posts would be second largest outcry, we campers were just very vocal, but a minority.

Point six, make an opt in system. Want to trade your 20% drop cash for a chance at a rare drop select this check box. Now if the entire player base opts out, well then that I guess answers that, otherwise, let the perhaps minority of people who like the system, keep it, and let the majority who do not like it go back to more cash no rares, problem solved.

In the end this is like forcing the entire playerbase to camp. Instead let those that want to camp and fight do so, and those who just want to fight do that too.

P.S. make opt in the default and opting out a conscious choice. It would add a dimension to the starting strat. Should I risk my 20% for a Corn early, later, ever?

Just my five cents dern inflation

Neo Japan July 22 2009 10:30 AM EDT

I would love that Opt option, because then everyone would opt out and i would be in and Get them ALL.

and I remember in CB1, you could vote for the site and get like, 100 BA or something for voting. I like that Idea to come back.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 10:36 AM EDT

JW,

Balance across veterans and new players is one of the most crucial aspects of balance in the game. Yes, all the new folks starting today will not know what they have missed. Too bad all the vets have massive tattoos and NW because they did have that consistent flow in the past, and were able to manage their fiscal situation more reliably. If you don't see that as a tactical advantage in the game, we can just agree to disagree on that point.

You still haven't answered my question, though. No, not all the negatives some people speculated have come to pass. That's not a reason to implement a change and keep it. "Hey, a new thing that does nothing positive, but hey, no negatives! Hooray!" No, just looking at a lack of negatives isn't a reason for much of anything, and is, in fact, somewhat defeatist.

So, to counter my consistent whining (not sure how it can be in any way whining if I am making a consistent, cohesive, and eloquent point, but whatever), tell me the UPSIDE of the change. Preferably, an upside that does not have a known, diametric downside to cancel it out.

Then, once you lay out those points, we can talk about what to tell the folks who have yet to get a valuable drop in over a month of good BA usage. True, all the new folks starting see the same thing and have the same odds, and don't know what the "old way" was, but that doesn't address that ANY lottery, especially one that is allowed to go so long without yielding rewards, frustrates people and distracts from game-play.

And if I'm a "whiner", in any way, then there are an awful lot of "apologists" out there. Neither is an attractive state of being. If such vocalizations are so burdensome or trivial, then I hope the forums are just entirely abolished, because there would remain no point to discourse.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 10:40 AM EDT

I agree, Sefton -- it's kind of like forcing the entire player-base to clan up. *smile*

/me ducks...

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 10:45 AM EDT

Sorry for the trifecta... Sefton illustrates an interesting thought experiment...

If there were an opt out, and you knew all the new player, old players, competition, clan mates, etc. were opting out, getting consistent cash to manage and upgrade their gear, would you stay in the lottery? Do you think the percentage of players staying in would be a minority or majority?

Just judging from the drop threads of people who still have no drops or have only received 1 or 2 worthless drops, I am all but certain that around 40-50 people would instantly opt out. I would be another, even though I have won the lottery.

But to get behind the opt idea on another front... Maybe it would be fun for things like clans. As in, have some of the clan go for consistent cash and have some of the clan members go for drops. It could build a nice group-think, nice comraderie.

And making it optional does away with all whiners and apologists with a simple checkbox, database field, and IF...THEN statement.

FailBoat[SG] July 22 2009 10:57 AM EDT

Ummm... Sut, I'm technically a Vet and I have neither massive tattoo or NW to fall back on.

Corath July 22 2009 10:59 AM EDT

im quiting and the drop chance is only one of the reasons.. cb is not what is used to be back in the days and i dont have the sorta time needed to reach the top ~10, thats the major reasons why i quit

tomorrow is prob the last time i login.. at least for some time =)

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 11:04 AM EDT

Silva, if you don't have anything at all to fall back on, then I am assuming at some point you didn't use much BA, sold out, or something. Or had bad luck on a NUB run?

Specific folks aside, I was just trying to point out that just because a change looks equitable on a go-forward basis doesn't mean there aren't problems with old/new player discrepancies.

QBJohnnywas July 22 2009 11:08 AM EDT

Sut,

to quote myself: "And your very consistent viewpoint on randomness aside, a hell of a lot of the view against the drop system still feels like whining. "

So, no I don't think that you are whining. I actually think your viewpoint is the best argument against the system that I've heard. Almost enough to make me change my mind. Except I like the new system, and my rewards have always seemed random anyway.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 11:31 AM EDT

I don't disagree, rewards are random, but as in "a small variance from an exact number that levels out on a short time period". By short, I mean just about daily. Tons of folks have been able to estimate loan payoffs and future savings down to a day or two (assuming consistent BA usage, of course).

With the drop system, we have a 20% reduction that can, as we are seeing, last more than a month at a time.

I am not much of a money manager -- it has never been how I eke out some sort of advantage or anything like that. But there are folks who ARE good at it, and can offer a tactical edge.

If nothing else, knowing that a fifth of cash rewards fall into a lottery scenario will probably make the good money managers give up on that, since whatever edge they were able to gain is now dulled by long-term randomness. Perception counts, and if a lottery ends up being a de facto path toward a game-play element being less attractive for some folks, I see that as a negative thing...

...whereas a simple opt-in modification take that negative aspect and squashes it, while opening up some potential positives.

FailBoat[SG] July 22 2009 11:35 AM EDT

I played for 14 hours of my NUB before I left CB for about a year and then got an email from someone saying that my account was about to be deleted. So I came back then but had nothing to work with.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 11:36 AM EDT

Silva, that'll do it. But that's a whole 'nother thread known as "rolling bonus". *smile*

QBRanger July 22 2009 11:43 AM EDT

"I would love that Opt option, because then everyone would opt out and i would be in and Get them ALL. "

Unfortunately this person have no idea what a Zero-Sum event is.

If all people opted out of such a system but 1, that 1 person would not get any more frequent drops than is occurring now.

At least this is what is assumed by Jon's first post about the new system:

"Half of all rares will now be granted as rewards in battle, in addition to cash and XP.

(That is why cash rewards have been decreased a little.) "

Again,

Having Jon or NS chime in on why this drop system was enacted would help the community understand and better discuss this addition to the game.

Instead of all the posts assuming things that may not even be 1% true.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 22 2009 11:53 AM EDT

Which is why in the end, you should just listen to Sefton, implement any suggestion he has as they are always wonderful and right on and just carry on without all this chiming here or waiting there.

:)

Wasp [Demon Forging] July 22 2009 12:07 PM EDT

I stopped playing properly because I could no longer afford torun my ncb. With the cost of cash increasing and the amount getting decreasing. Well. If only the NCB gave you a chance to hit the top without spending hundreds of USD.

Looks like CB's great design of retaining new players is working well. Pity that all the older players are leaving though.

Lord Bob July 22 2009 12:25 PM EDT

I threaten to quit about every three months, but never do...

That said, considering the recent state of things here on CB, coupled with issues in real life, I've strongly considered selling out in the next few months for the cash. I would prefer to see things get better here and stay, but I just don't like the direction this game is going, and here's why:
1.) The N*B. I've been ranting about it since forever now, but it's become apparent after so long that Jon just isn't interested in letting old characters compete. New players are handed everything, and throwaway characters are the only way to make it to the top ranks. I have no interest in abandoning my current team, and thus lately I haven't been playing to compete, but just to watch my team grow. But that novelty is wearing out fast.

2.) The drop system. I haven't seen a single drop yet, and coupled with the N*B problem above, certainly makes this feel like a game of "you lose, you lose, you lose." This is not fun.

I'm not sure if I'll really sell out or not. I do need the cash though. At the very least I'll stick around like a stubborn mule for the next month or two to see if anything changes for the better around here.

Lord Bob July 22 2009 12:27 PM EDT

Well, look at that. Not one minute after I posted:

Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Elven Stiletto [55x8] (+7). Use it well!

Still, after all this time I get a crappy Stilleto? Not good enough. Kill the drop system, and do it fast.

Timberwolf July 22 2009 2:32 PM EDT

Ranger, I can alter your last statement down to just a few words that would probably correct a lot of the ills this game currently has.

'Having Jon or NS chime in.'

Much has changed or been broken lately (server slowdowns) without much, if any, feedback from the powers that be.

DarkMenzo July 22 2009 4:40 PM EDT

All I can say is "yes, the price of CB is going way down". However it is due to a lot of people selling out. Why they are, I have no idea. Perhaps asking them would be a good idea.

I stopped reading after this. You guys do realize that maybe people need money, and they are going to A) stop spending money, and B) try to sell things for money.

I don't know what it looks like outside of your window, but the only people doing good in my community are the Wal-Mart and McDonalds corporations. Everyone else is struggling. Over 20% of the people in my union are laid off at the moment.

My point is, people don't have extra money, so they aren't buying as much CBD.

QBOddBird July 22 2009 4:42 PM EDT

"The N*B. I've been ranting about it since forever now, but it's become apparent after so long that Jon just isn't interested in letting old characters compete. New players are handed everything, and throwaway characters are the only way to make it to the top ranks. I have no interest in abandoning my current team, and thus lately I haven't been playing to compete, but just to watch my team grow."

Lord Bob, that is _exactly_ where I am at, and where I have been, for quite some time now.

OverKill July 22 2009 5:12 PM EDT

k lets get this out there guys, as a group your not leaving because of the drops your leaving because of lower rewards lower levels of feedback from the devs and lower quality personallities in the community IE your friend quit. am i right?

FailBoat[SG] July 22 2009 9:20 PM EDT

Honestly, I stopped chatting to get away from the lower "quality" personality levels. And I used to be in chat all day, every day.

But yeah, I would say that the lowered contact with our Developers is what could be causing this. Its always an issue when a game receives little to no feedback after a while, forced to deal with changes using only the knowledge of the Playerbase and the Admins, which can be limited.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] July 22 2009 9:24 PM EDT

If I hadn't read the change log about there being a drop system implemented, I probably wouldn't even know there was one. I was led to believe it was much more fun then it is turning out to be. :(

Zenai July 22 2009 10:35 PM EDT

SilvaGaidin - Yes I am USD but even that has hit a standstill with the Economy here in America affecting cash flow. Honestly even before the Drop System came into play the price of a NCB run was ridiculous now it is Absolutely Insane. That 20% from cash makes a larger impact than people think!

Sut - I agree to your Eloquent points, however, no matter how well written there is a flaw in it all. As dudemus pointed out we just do not have all of the information needed to cement yours or anyones arguments. Yes we have our own superfluous information but it is just that and nothing more unfortunately.

Lord Bob - Quitting is a personal choice, circumstances of a situation affect it true but it is still reliant upon you. I do understand your reasoning though even if I do not totally agree but to each his/her own.

Sefton - The "Opt" Idea is quite possibly the best idea I have heard about this drop system yet. I have heard too much about why it should not be around and have not heard many solutions brought in. So far there is only a handful of options that could be viable. Honestly the "Opt" idea is not new but having it brought up by someone that has not been here for a while to me cements it and therefore making it more viable than before. I do see a problem though, unfortunately, how to properly write it into the code and who will have the amount of time required to do it. In this sense I point to the many misc problems floating around CB that has yet to be fixed and say it simply....How?


From This Thread:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002mfe

{CB1}Zenai U'Lanya June 14 10:46 AM EDT
Solare : This doesn't quite make up for lost money. While I like the drop system, I think it needs to be adjusted. The rate should definitely be higher.

The Drop Rate could be raised a bit but I personally think that would just saturate the market with items that people do not really have the money for in the first place. That would just make items become worthless in the long run because they would no longer have value. Supply and Demand is the name of the game, too much supply no demand. In the long run this would defeat the purpose of the increased drop rate versus the reduction in CBD.

But

The Reduction in % of CBD taken for this change lowered from 20% to 10% would be a better solution, that I think, everyone could live with. Overall I think the Rare Item Drop change is one of the best ones I have seen so far. The only real problem is what everyone has already stated, the cost is too high. This makes it feel like a forced lottery, in essence making them feel jilted every time they do not get a drop. The ones getting the "Good Drops" are actually benefiting from this, which in a way is the purpose, just not at the cost to all. Bottom line it is dividing the community and this is the last thing we really need here, we have enough division as it is.

In the end this is making most CBers hate this change because they do not get anything for it or what they do get is not worth their time because no one would want to buy it anyway.


Another Solution:


Make it an OPTION to play the Rare Item Drop Lotto.

The CBer Opts to buy a ticket for a day, week, or month to take the reduced reward for a chance to get that Rare Item Drop.

This would completely solve the "I didn't have a choice!" attitude because they didn't get anything, or something of little to no value.
You bought the ticket so in the end it was YOUR choice get over it!

Another Solution:

Make it a part of a Wacky Time! I am not sure how this could be implemented to balance it out. Maybe make it Rare Item Lotto all day on Sundays. People would know what to expect and be ready for it, one day will not make as big a difference as all the time like now. Plus this could make CBers have something to look forward to like some for the Big EXP and Money Times.


Just a few thoughts.......................


However maybe just a check box might be better ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 22 2009 10:46 PM EDT

the opt in would not work without some serious number crunching and constant adjustments, something that i am not sure we have the dev staff for.

right now we have two variables. the number of rares spawning as drops (50 percent of total spawns) and the reduction in rewards (20 percent reduction). an opt in would require some kind of formula then to figure the percentage of drops spawned as fight rewards that would change with how many are opting in. this number would have to be calculated at least daily, but like more often than that.

across the board changes are much easier to make than calculations that are performed regularly and take up computational power. i would imagine that developers would want to keep the calculations to a minimum if possible.

while the opt in may seem like a home run from a user standpoint, i am not real sure that it truly is. perhaps some of the more technical types can put in their two cents though. ; )

QBsutekh137 July 22 2009 11:04 PM EDT

Yeah, sucks the issue is over-thought when it all could have just been left alone.

As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with just, you know, getting the same amount of cash at a consistent rate.

Over-design is a real bear.

Zenai July 23 2009 6:52 AM EDT

dudemus/Sut I agree hence the reason I wrote what I did. Do not get me wrong my aim was not to shoot down a good idea or be negative. I simply felt the need to point out an obvious fact. Something of this magnitude would be difficult and time consuming at a point where it seems that "Time" is a issue for the Developers.

Sometimes the Answer to something Complicated is Simple, Likewise, sometimes the Answer to something Simple is Complicated. If we keep this in mind then maybe we can make better, more well informed ideas. Still this would only be a short term thing at best as the questions arise: What is Simple/What is Complicated?

Neither here nor there ideas make CB go around even if it IS just speculation for the most part. What I would think should be implemented is a Poll for each group thought idea. At the very least instead of going in constant circles we could get the consensus of Active CB players for the ideas. I think something like this could "Weed Out" some of the bad half-baked/inconceivable ideas and leave room for the good/well thought out ones.

Just a few thoughts...........

Lord Bob July 23 2009 1:06 PM EDT

"Lord Bob - Quitting is a personal choice, circumstances of a situation affect it true but it is still reliant upon you. I do understand your reasoning though even if I do not totally agree but to each his/her own. "

Not sure where you're going with this. At no point did I imply that it wasn't a personal choice. Of course quitting is a choice. So is choosing to playing the game, running a tank or mage, responding to a thread, and pretty much anything else, ever.

The fact is that the direction the developers take this game in the next few months will influence the choice I make regarding this game, and I gave some examples of things that are pulling me in the direction of quitting.

Aside from that, I have no idea what point you were trying to make with that statement.

Canibus July 23 2009 3:05 PM EDT

I dont see why anyone should justify the reduced money, its a part of the game.
The drops is a new thing.
Reduced money is a new thing.

Changes happen, it doesnt have to serve everyone.

Shark July 24 2009 12:02 AM EDT

they are leaving bec me thinks they want their money back they put into this game plain and simple..
And people are saying the drop idea is leading to them leaving CB bec they arent being honest about it.
Some of these other people saying they aren't leaving and trying to sell out for USD ARE leaving too...watch and see.
they are leaving too bec they want their money back or they want to make as much USD as they can while they can..
The game just flat cost too much to play anymore..
and everyone wants to be a bandit..get out while you can with what you can..

Goodfish July 24 2009 12:16 AM EDT

I'm quitting because it isn't FUN. If drops were exciting, it'd be fun. But 20% of the cash in the game is straight up GONE, and there is nothing to compensate for it. No, drops don't compensate, they just move money around. Instead of the auctioneer auctioning an item, a player does it.

Ultimately, the drop system sucks. And it isn't the only reason I'm quitting, but it's one of them.

Mikel July 24 2009 12:20 AM EDT

I don't have any plans to quit, but I am not buying anymore CB2 or renaming my items when they expire.

I am completely turned off by the drops thing. Since it's release I have still only had one drop. It is causing another imbalance in a game that tries to remain balanced.

(0.0) July 24 2009 2:59 AM EDT

"The game just flat cost too much to play anymore."

I didn't think it was mandatory to spend money on this game.

QBOddBird July 24 2009 3:10 AM EDT

"I didn't think it was mandatory to spend money on this game."

Tried running a NCB for the top lately?

Shark July 24 2009 4:34 AM EDT

"the game has just gotten too expensive to invest into it"...

maybe I should have said that instead of "play"..
'cus you are right you dont need money to play...

just a desire to have your Fiery Balls handed back to you.

the same results though, its gotten too expensive.
And some kind of money is usually at the bottom of most issues.
here or there.
I have never seen a bunch ignore the brutal facts of reality so willingly

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