Items found via random drop (in General)

Jonathan changed fights so that cash rewards decrease, rares periodically drop during fights.

So if you have an item dropped on you during a fight, post here! We'll eventually compile a list of potential drop items - as Jon stated that half of the rares are in the pool - and add it to the wiki. :)

i would also like to know if it makes you aware of a rare drop and how it does if so.

Already asked that, Jon said it would do so.

An Amulet of Junction [0] (+9)

Gotten from battle.

I would assume that it would say something under the "Rewards" section that comes up after every fight

idiotz is a hacker! grats :P

unless Jon means have the rares that spawn in a given time spawn via fights, and the other half spawn in auctions - but that seems really complicated. The number of fights is going to spike after this change, so does that mean lower odds of getting a rare if more people fight?

Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Amulet of Junction [0] (+9). Use it well!


i got one

so much for it being rare

20 of those are in the rewards pool already, so there is going to be 20 more in game before anything else is in there i assume.

lol, shows how much i pay attention to my rewards going to have to keep a better eye out but i have also won an AoJ

Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Amulet of Junction [0] (+9). Use it well!

woot!

Who is going to be lucky enough to get the first Katana. A real rare :)

dude, SS or it didn't happen.

(really, I want to see where in the screen it is so I know to pay attention to that part of it)

"half the rares" means "half of what used to spawn in auctions," not "half the item types." (the rest will continue to spawn in auctions.)

sorry for the confusion.

No problem, just our minds wandering a little Jonathan

i didn't ss it, sorry. the text shows up black in a purplish-blue area at the top of the page. it is not part of the standard post battle stats area at all.

hope that helps!

I just won an AoJ.

Ulmo gave me an AoJ! Wild! Can't believe I got one so soon...

Curious, anyone under 2mill mpr get anything yet?

im under 2 mil and got an AOJ

Have other rares started dropping yet, or is it just the AoJs right now, because I haven't heard a report of any other rare drops.

do you have to be a Certain MPR to get rare drops? =/

I just got an AOJ as well.

I think the answer is no, but there's an improved chance per fight as your BA refresh rate reaches 6/20. It's likely just enough of a rate increase to keep the odds fair.

I am quite glad to see more AoJ.

Perhaps those that need them will finally be able to.

Interesting change. Knowing my luck I will be the best Katana finder in the game :)

lol^

A Pair of Elven Boots [10] (+5)

Just won them. I'm so pumped.

I found an amulet in my inventory, but don't remember seeing the message. AoJ

A Set of Boots of Fortitude [12] (+9) just won these

Seems like the refresh rate gives a big boost to drop chance...Mostly guys with big characters have been posting.

I have a feeling not everyone is posting. Where are all the Kats and ESs that should be found?

so is this basically a make the big bigger and stronger and let the small people and NCB fans suffer?

please post your MPR of the character used when finding these drops

So art is the lucky one so far... 2 drops for him :) grats... I doubt I ever find anything. I am very unlucky.

I think most regular poster have at least a "decent" size character, so I wouldn't say the boost is too high for higher MPR yet.

Especially since it's very easy to program the difference in chance for people in 6BA regen compared to 10BA regen. I wouldn't screw that up, let alone Jon, if you use all your BA you'll have the same chance as someone else who does.

The chance would higher for higher regens cos they have less BA? I'm sure it's all relative.

CML, 3.1m MPR

A Pair of Gloves of Mercy [0] (+6) gee thanks for the gloves :)
me 100k pr
I guess this is what a 100k pr is worth heh

ohhh im so stupid i toook them off earlier cus they was hurting me duh disregard my lack of concentration

Woooh.

I got an Elven Stiletto.

;P

Courtesy of DeathTheKid

Ahh, nice to know where to look

got DB+7 after 2 BA (and missed all Exp day today too)

I've gotten nothing.

actually, can Jon or NS make it into a popup as well as on the fight screen? That way I wouldn't ever miss it and wonder where my new item comes from.

Dang nabbit I fight too fast. I missed the message. Got me a base ToA though :D

Absolutely nothing for me. Although I've not been on as much as normal the past couple of days. I'm quite liking this change though...

I've gotten nothing so far, getting kinda discouraged. I've been playing much more since this was implemented.

Most of us are really taking the hit in fight rewards with no real benefit.

Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you An Adamantite Cuirass [40] (+7). Use it well!

Yep,

So far nada. Except a nice drop in my cash rewards.

This is getting real discouraging.

In fact, I seem to be losing money now buying BA while renting 1 item.

USD is now needed more than ever just to keep up.

i agree on the cash drop, its slowing down my ncb growth, i dont have as much money to put into an ELB. im actually relying on renting my items out for cash.

Haven't gotten nothing yet and been spending all and buying all my BA.
Question to the Admins though, what is the chance of finding an item? Is it like 1/5000, 1/10000? etc

Just for Future References it would be cool to Screenshot your Drop to see which Valar gives which Rare Item and how it looks :)

I missed the screenshot (I push enter fast) but I got a base fire familiar :)

Doesn't make up for the lost cash yet though.

Still nothing either at about 500-600 fights in a 24 hour time for 3 days now. :(
And the money loss % does seem to be a bit high. maybe lower the cash loss % to better balance this out.

I am thinking the same thing, but I will give it more time.. but once I have gotten to the point of losing 2 or 3 million from this and still not getting an item.. at that point I will start saying it was a bad idea :)

I concur lower the cash % drop to have a better balance.

I'm starting to think Jon wanted to lower the amount of liquid assets added to the game over a certain amount of time, and that is part of the reason for this change.

I think so too, and I would normally have no problem with that. But, I currently have a bit of debt and the change would make it harder to pay off; I was also going to buy a new minion after the debt.
Since a lot of people are doing pay plans, maybe something should be done to recompensate for the loss in cash and the deflation that follows. Well, other than an item every so often.

Gols, everyone has to adapt to the change though.

Debt payers, and Payment recievers.

I also have a debt, but the people who offer payplans should realize it will take longer to pay it off due to the recent change and take that into account when offering the service, right?

i found a lesser ToE
yay..

I'm starting to wonder something. Will people ever be able to afford new minions? I mean big new minions. With the new money system I'm not sure people will be able to save the money. So are we going to have to get minions at the start or very early on from now on? Just a question I was wondering outloud to myself.

It is now 20% harder to get cash to get new minions, unless you hit the CB lottery.

It may even out in the long run, however I now believe that 20% is far too high a penalty for this non optional lottery.

I have fought over 2000 battles, losing about 100 each battle due to the new reward system.

That is 200k now and climbing.

I have a better idea :P
Remove the instant rewards, put back the cash rewards where they were, revert spawn rates like before... and give BLACK MARKET VOTES as random fight rewards instead.
:)

I've not gotten anything, but if I was coming in as a new user I would think this was great. It's something that happens in a lot of other games I've played and I always wished CB had it.

Sickone 3:26 PM EDT
I have a better idea :P
Remove the instant rewards, put back the cash rewards where they were, revert spawn rates like before... and give BLACK MARKET VOTES as random fight rewards instead.
:)

So that way we could not all vote on the same item even more?

JW,

I agree.

If this was enacted from the very beginning.

However, with the 20% reduction to rewards, I barely make enough to cover buying BA now.

Forget about hiring a minion now without buying CB2 or upgrading weapons.

Unless I hit the CB lottery and find a nice rare. Not a crappy one like an ES or katana. But a real one like DB or a corn.

And considering 4 corns spawned via CB in the past month, the odds of getting 1 of 2 is very small.

I really believe that the 20% decrease is way too much. And the more this goes one, not getting anything, the more I really dislike this CB lottery.

I'm fine with the change, but the cost of hiring minions, BA, or anything else that has a predetermined value needs to be adjusted to compensate for the change.

I do not think Jon or NS believe that BA cost or minion cost should change.

Their thinking is that the rares are now going to players instead of into auctions. The money overall is stable given this fact.

I think they may have overestimated the money going from auctions to players.

Or perhaps I am one of the very unlucky ones that will be getting ES and Katanas if I ever win the CB lottery.

There are those that already received 2 items, both over 1.5M base value. That alone compensates for 10 of us who got nothing.

As I stated before, I am more of a sure thing type of person rather than a lottery player. Especially when forced to play it.

"There are those that already received 2 items, both over 1.5M base value"

Not true, I got lucky to sell those EBs for 1.5M, most have been going for 1M. Also, I doubt that my AoJ will go for 1.5M, most aren't going that high :P.

actually art the last few AoJ's are going to the chairman for 2 mil even. So Rangers estimate is a bit low.. :) Way to prove that some just win the lottery while others are just losing and will probably continue to lose.

This is great, now I glad that I can just wait for rare drops instead of having to have a huge bidding war with other people to get a rare item!

Was the purpose of this to decrease the amount of cash in CB? I'm glad Jonathan didn't just nerf cash rewards by 20%.

I think that to even this change out they either, A. Put our cash bonuses up so it is only a 10% reduction or B. Double the number of items being spawned.
Out of those two, A seems to be the more reasonable option.

Alaisky: It sounds like a great idea at first, but obviously you haven't read the reasons why it isn't such a great idea when being implemented.

You can't just sit here and wait for rare drops, it's not like you get a rare item by random chance for logging in. You must do battles in order to get a chance at getting a rare, and it could be a worthless rare like ES.

You would be better off having 20% more cash than having a random chance of getting a rare. You would be able to purchase more rares with the cash you lost than hoping for a rare to drop. I have done over 2,000+ battles since the change and I haven't gotten anything while others have gotten their 2nd and 3rd rare. It's better for you to use the cash you lost to the change for buying rares (at least there is a certainty there), hire new minions, or buy BA (it's free for you atm but for the higher PR guys it cost money).

It's not hard to buy rares from the auction house when compared to getting a rare from random chance which we do not even know the formula to. I've bought 5 rares already and I've only played for 1 week so I don't understand why anyone should complain they can't get rares from the auction house.

And yes, this is a different method for Jon to remove cash from the game. This method will remove a lot more cash than the auction house will ever will because with this change there is a 20% reduction placed on ALL players and limited rare drops, while the auction house only removes cash from 1 player with the highest bid, and sometimes the bid isn't always very high.

For some the change is good. But for some the change is hindering their growth.

"3rd rare"

Liar, that's not happened :P.

Art. I understand that you are tickled pink that you have gotten 2 items so far in just the first week of this new experiment, but really... let's try not to rub it in so much to the people that haven't gotten anything... ok. thanks..

Sox, I've been easy going about this before I got the drops. I've been getting tired of all the wham burgers and french cries in the forums. Jon changed it, it's not a terrible change, it's not likely going to be changed back, get used to it. If you want me to go flaunting it in your face I suppose I could cm you every time I get a drop and you don't, because of the Sox factor Jon included in the formula.

Art is not rubbing it in.

He is just one lucky person.

I'm glad for him. And sad for me and all the others paying the lottery tax.

I just want not to play this lottery anymore.

Ranger: You and I both. I really don't see why I have to fund for this stupid game of random chance. We (those who haven't received anything) are basically funding for the rares that the others are getting. But the change has been done. Let's hope next month it reverts back to normal. I'd rather pay for the rares than having to lose money for no good reason.

"Let's hope next month it reverts back to normal." Changemonths are every three months. Just be thankful Jon just didn't implement a straight up 20% decrease to monetary rewards.

"Just be thankful Jon just didn't implement a straight up 20% decrease to monetary rewards."

Are you saying that was likely or something??

Well he obviously saw some need for a cash sink, and he did a 5% awhile ago. I don't think 10-15% is crazy, heck 20% is just a little crazy.

You are modifying it to we should be thankful he didn't just reduce rewards by 10-15%?

Its only a matter of time before everyone will get something unless you have really really bad luck.
I like the new system just think the cash % should be tweaked to better balance things out. Why not try a 18% or 15% instead of 20% and see how it goes then.

Because it's Jon, if 20% is too much, there's a reason it's too much, he wanted to take money out of the game. If you understood everything Jon did, then you would be Jon.

The reason it was 5% less a while ago was the removal of ammo.

20% IMO is far too much. Having yet to find something, I am barely making ends meat.

A Sling of Death [5x1] (+6)

after 16BA just now.
I got one yesterday too. DB+7

Isn't the thread with all the arguing the changelog thread? Why are we doing it here when it's supposed to be about who got random drops and what they were?

I hate you Little Anthony I've spent at least 500BA+ and still haven't gotten anything.

Heh. I've spent pretty much all BA since the change, and bought all that I can buy, and still nothing :P

"A Sling of Death [5x1] (+6)

after 16BA just now.
I got one yesterday too. DB+7 "

Just beautiful.

Glad to see my CB2 supporting others.

that's how it's going to be for most of us I fear.

I can't say I don't like the idea, but chances should really increase the longer it's been since you last found an item, and decrease when you HAVE found one. Having people already with 3 rares when I- like Ranger- have burned through thousands of BA and gotten none is pretty depressing.

We'll see how things pan out. I'm hoping to like the change and am willing to give it the rest of the summer to see what happens, but... :\

"Having people already with 3 rares" Second time this has been said. Who's gotten three drops?

it is the way with these games -.- dont see what people are complaining about.... *shrug* havent gotten an item meself

I've suggested something similar Goodfish, but I was flamed by people who called that socialism.

random is as random does :)

how about just give everyone an item every 2 days? so everyone get something?

Just learn some statistics and cope with something random for once.

"Random" in a game that has consistently denied "random" doesn't really make sense.

I thought I saw something about three rares from one user, but I was wrong. Sorry for not being pathetic enough to read a hundred posts. :P So people have two, and I have none. How that's any more of a relief than three is beyond me.

Like I said- I am going to give the new system a chance... but it seems its biggest proponents are the ones who have already gotten "free" items. I try to be a bit more objective.

having drops in the past should not and does not affect your chance in the future.

Then PK, you WILL see it get worse before it gets better. Just be prepared for the serious whining.

In any game with "random" ANYTHING and a sizeable userbase, some users will consistently be "lucky" and others "unlucky". While random is random, that doesn't mean it's equal or fair.

So we will definitely see users getting five, six, seven rares before some of us see even one. I can promise you this.

I got a lesser Rune of Balrog Flame. Seriously?

I just got a shield of capacity. Which is pretty nice for my strat actually.

I just ignore the cash drop and look at drops as bonus

I never beleived in anything random here either GF...theres a trigger somewhere and when those criteria are met whomever fights at that point in time gets the stuff...there is no such thing as random and I think we been thru that discussion too here about 500 times over the past 8 years...what ever you do thats not elevating equality is a problem for those of us less equal

I expect that I won't see any text with purple background except the following for a long time:
Asterisked opponents -- those marked with * -- are comatose. You'll have to find someone else to fight until this one recovers.

well killer your up there in the PR range thats its all dropping so I say you have something by the end of the week :)

Got absolutely nothing, and I hate lotteries.
I never play lotteries of any kind in real-life either.

Drama queens - get over it, it's just random drops like almost every other RPG.

so if anyone else gets an SoD can you work with me on it please? i dont have much cash and what I have I owe to someone else :)

I wonder if the PR/MPR ratio play any part in the drop %.

"Drama queens - get over it, it's just random drops like almost every other RPG."

As far as I know, 'other' RPGs don't have a limit on the number of fights you can have in a certain period of time. And they didn't take a hit in cash rewards. ;)

back when rares dropped in stores, that was "LUCKY" if you happened to be in there when one or multiple ones spawned. Then some people turned it into a career and became campers. but you could camp for 3 days and get nothing, while someone made ONE visit and score and ELB and a Loch (back when Loch's were the best) AND a Morg.

The less BA you get the higher your chance of random event happening are greater. A 6/20 has a better chance then 8/20. So yes it is tied in somehow

From linked thread from first post on this one.
"<Godwolf> Jon: Does the chance of a rare go up based on your BA regen rate?
<Jonathan> gw: yes " From linked thread from first post on this one.

"back when rares dropped in stores, that was "LUCKY" if you happened to be in there when one or multiple ones spawned."

Camping, or even going to the store, is/was optional.

Oh, and I haven't found anything, either. Still waiting for that ES or Katana to appear!

I highly suspect that high challenge bonus increases your chances of finding something.

Not sure as not everyone show their item drops

I do not think that challenge bonus has any effect on your drop % as I have been fighting at 100% or very near to it yet I only got my first drop this morning and it was a lesser ToE.

Tongue in check brevity for this change. ;)

What's the worst Rare drop to get?

1) Lesser Tattoo
2) GoM
3) Katana
4) ES
5) Other

;) Maybe we could make a community poll! :P

Jon mentioned there was an increase based on BA regen rate to make it an even chance for all players. I doubt he would then make it uneven by boosting the odds for higher MPR players.

Bah, I read challenge bonus as MPR.

"The less BA you get the higher your chance of random event happening are greater. A 6/20 has a better chance then 8/20. So yes it is tied in somehow

From linked thread from first post on this one.
"<Godwolf> Jon: Does the chance of a rare go up based on your BA regen rate?
<Jonathan> gw: yes " From linked thread from first post on this one."

You misread this, yes, there is a higher chance per BA for me to find something than someone in 10BA regen, but if we both spent all our BA the chances are equal.

just got a katana, hehe!

So is that fine "rare" weapon worth 20% less cash rewards?

Someone, please give Ranger a rare item of some kind. Please.

"So is that fine "rare" weapon worth 20% less cash rewards?"

in addition to the 2m i got for the aoj drop, i am ahead of what i would have been reward wise. as for the long term balance of the two, i am willing to give it more time to tell as randomness really only evens out over time.

i think the 20 percent may have been extreme and would love to see it toned down a bit. i do wish i had been keeping a line graph of the liquid assets, total net worth of items as well as the ratio between the two to see if 20 percent is fair or not, but i didn't think of that until too late!

I finally got something! A katana > >...

I'm going to have to agree with Ranger. I went from making 200k, if I missed about 100 BA, a day to barely making 150k a day and I'm only missing maybe an hours worth of BA right now.

20% is seriously harsh for the "amazing" chance to get rares. I could see if there was a better chance at items worth something. And while I agree that there is -alot- of liquid assets in the game, there is no reason to be destroying Tank/Archer teams who aren't USD funded.

Zero luck + Less Cash

I love this change.

</sarcasm>

CheshireCat, my wife, has a take on this certain change, and this is a direct quote:

"Jon is simulating the current failing economy complete with stimulus packages and bailouts."

All her words. Now, if you exscuse me, I have to go die laughing.

I feel ya Slayer. Did BA increase in cost with the change? I don't like it because it further punishes the people who can't log in often to burn BA and make up for the difference that it costs to buy BA. I'm lucky with once a day lately (before my vacation which I'm on now thank goodness :)

Silva really did quote me word for word. >.>

I'm with Slayer.

3000 BA later and still nothing.

Sorry to double post, but it's more on the verge of 4 or 5 thousand BA and nothing.

This isn't something I've been enjoying so far.

Don't measure it in BA spent, that's just absurd, as the percent chances are different for people in different BA regens. Talk about it in days, then everyone is on the same page.

Your auction for A Sling of Death [5x1] (+6) has sold for $933,332.

Patience you guys. The rewards are so much better than that 20% lost.

Beginning of day 6 and still nothing :(

I just got a ToA! woah!

Off the schnide!!!!

Hopefully the rest of us can get something.

Day 6, 3k+ battles and nothing yet except for a large/growing money loss.

I'm with Ranger, still have yet to find anything and with my NUB, I must be down atleast double whatever Ranger is..

Actually Burton, it's more like 5 times as much. Heh ouch.

wooot i just got a base Robf...Didnt see when it dropped though, just found it in my inventory

''Actually Burton, it's more like 5 times as much. Heh ouch.''

Wow, that ticks me off even more.

Actually, burton, you probably still earn about 2.5 times as much cash as ranger.

In regards to this change, I think we all need to stuff a cigarette into our mouth, or snag a beer, or do whatever it is you like to relax a little and realize this is probably one of the least relevant things that will ever happen in our lives.

Possibly, but possibly a very relevant thing in our CB lives.

I just got this:
A Helm of Ecthelion [6] (+4) 17,006

:)

absolutely nothing yet :(

i got CML +4 the other day :)

A Pair of Elven Gloves [3] (+5)

Showed up in my inventory. Going through battles I did not notice any message.

I agree, can we get a CM about getting an item?

Your fault for not seeing? You do get it, getting a CM is being spoilt.

Nothing yet except for less money per battle and per item sold in auctions. LOL!

An Elven Stiletto [55x1] (+0) 6,755

Joy of joys.... Can we get this sort of junk removed from the "rare" category? Please? While we're at it, if we're going to keep going with this rares-dropping-in-battle thing, why not have 100% of rares spawn through battle? I could certainly see that as a justification for the 20% lowering of money rewards from battle, as more cash would stay in the game instead of getting swallowed up by the auctioneer. What's the reasoning as to why it was chosen to be only 50%?

i was theorizing that this is a test run and will likely end up that way after the test, could be wrong though!

If that's the case, that'll be fine. I just don't want to see another reduction in cash rewards =( Then I'd never be able to hire... And man..... I was so excited to see the message about getting my first item! Oh boy, what would it be! It's like Christmas! Only it's an ES.... That's like my parents just giving me a Hot Wheels car for Christmas when I'm in my 20's =(

Congrats on the find Ranger.
I have still yet to find anything and I don't even know how many days passed and how much millions of CDB i've lost since then.

Plenty of people haven't found anything yet.

Day 7 will be coming to a close soon and still nothing :(

Im going to be lucky to break even on CBD by the time i get a drop. Im already at very minimum a 500k lose from where i should be since change.

Anyone get 3 yet?

For my own curiosity, who's still in the "Loser's Club" with no dropped items? I only care about those of you who use up the vast majority of your BA.

And I'm still in the club. As a NUB, I get free BA to buy, so I'm using almost every bit of the natural plus all of the buy-in.

I have yet to found anything and I am a NUB.

I would be in this Club so to speak. I very rarely miss any BA and I buy all of mine every day.

I haven't received any items yet. Since the change I have burned most of my natural BA.

I'm in the club too, but this really motivates me to use all my BA.

Opposed to the fact all NUB BA is free and your rewards are uber compared to people who have played and supported this game for years?

I would hope just playing the game is reason enough to try to spend all your BA. This random CB lottery should have no real factor in that.

Well, the battles before this were monotonous - no surprises at all. This random lottery actually does have a factor in how much I play, if not other players. Why shouldn't it have a factor in how much I want to spend BA?

Ok,

Well considering the average drops for all players are turning about to be about 1 per week, I hope you the best in your quest.

I would have hoped CB as a community and game would have peaked your interest more than a random lottery.

Or at least the intense growth you get with your New User Bonus compared to other players. The ability to grow and find new opponents to try to Blend.

But I guess a drop a week is the incentive truly needed to retain new players into the CB fold.

Perhaps I was wrong about this CB lottery and it is a good thing.

we need to have a " I didnt Get a Drop " contest and for 30 days whoever aint got nothing and used the most BA wins :)
and then you can say I aint got a Drop!!!

for example like send 100k to "I aint a got Drop contest" and after 30 days the winner I mean the Big loser takes the stack of cash, of course if you get a drop you lose :)

how would we count your BA though?

Easy to count BA as one can see Battles Challenged upon viewing a character.

However, it is not possible to tell if someone received a drop except if they are honest and say so.

I thought about a last man standing type of contest also, but there were too many variables to consider.

Why not have a page similar to the store purchase log, or transfer log, that shows the past 1,000 users or something. Just their name, what item dropped, and what time it dropped.

Seems like a reasonable thing to ask for. This way we can also track what items are naturally spawning and how many of what is spawning into the game.

i would join but id only be able to use natural ba, im a ncb but with limited funds and not enough to buy ba on a standard basis, and thats if people would play fair, i wouldnt want to play where odds(both sides, good players and ones who arent honest) will be bent.

another take on jir's idea i was thinking maybe something on the user page kinda like the wiki changes.

No drops yet and I spend most of my BA. Would spend it all if I could just break into that 6 category! :-)

A lesser electric familiar lvl 20.

Thanks.

AdminJonathan June 3 10:05 PM EDT
Half of all rares will now be granted as rewards in battle, in addition to cash and XP.


http://www.carnageblender.com/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=145#12

#12 - Normal tattoos are intentionally rare. Lesser tattoos are not.

Why are lesser tattoos being dropped if they arenﾒt rare?

Ha! At least Multi wants your crap lovely prize.

lessers dont spawn in stores so thats makes them rares

anyone else didnt had a drop yet? or am i the only 1

Still no drop for me.

Still no drop for me either... almost completely as I expected =))

Still no drop here while burning 99% of both all natural and buy-in BA.

heh dont it feel good to know you arent alone? :) heh


this is CB drama at its FINEST!!!

ehh nope for me but I expected nothing more or nothing less... I just want in my clan Y_Y

It's not really drama anymore. I think most people are adjusting to it. It's just amusing to me to follow my own bad streak. Here's how I see it:

The change occurred June 3, so I've gone through roughly 8.5 days of the new system. I get (24 regen/hour X 24 hours) = 576 natural BA plus 192 buy-in BA every day. That's 6528 BA since this change started. I might have missed 60 of it. For all practical purposes, I've gone through 6500 BA without winning so much as Combat Socks.

I'm wondering if I can hit 10k fights without a prize. :)

I'm in the same boat as you Demi. 576 ba a day with the occasional bought BA since june 3rd and still nothing.

Not a big fan of the drop rate.

If I received a prize every 2000 fights or so, I'd feel better about the change. But, so far, this has done nothing but inhibit me from paying off my debt.

While I'm not happy about it, there's really not much I can do about it, except state suggestions for change.

I think it shouldn't be percentage based (unless its significantly increased), but perhaps # of fights based? Say every 2500 fights you receive a prize. It will certainly encourage people to fight more, and perhaps stick around. Obviously this would have to be adjusted for 7/10, 8/10, 9/10 and 10/10.

Got a drop this morning, a mithril cuirass, yippee.

Still haven't got anything.

From: system (6:43 PM EDT)
Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Gloves of Mercy [0]. Use it well!

Novice, I'll trade you...

From: system (6:45 PM EDT)
Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you absolutely nothing!. Use it well!

Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Electric Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

Useless to me :P

i got an executioners sword is that good?

Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Rune of Balrog Flame lvl 20. Use it well!

No comment

I got my first item a lesser FF :)

wow got pair of spellboosters +9 now :D cool

Two items in ten minutes? *Jealous*

/me sulks in a corner and waits for the giant computer in the sky to bless him with a fabulous item. ;P

No my first item was from the previous day, however still lucky :)

Well day 11 for me and still nothing.

Im starting to really hate this.

Thak 9:44 AM EDT
Well day 11 for me and still nothing.

Im starting to really hate this.

Now, remember Thak, you have to wait at least a month to get a decent sample size. Of course, you then have to hope there were enough people playing to make that sample size.

And there has to be Whaaamburgers and French Cries.

</sarcasm>

Bring back my money.

I've gotten one drop and now am back in the negatives based upon expected cash flow.

I really do not like this forced CB lottery.

I feel real sorry for those who have not hit the winning numbers.

From: system (9:54 AM EDT)
Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Helm of Ecthelion [6] (+4). Use it well!

This doesn't quite make up for lost money. While I like the drop system, I think it needs to be adjusted. The rate should definitely be higher.

I agree, the rate should be higher... Maybe tweak it just just be 100% of the time, say, and make the bonus drop be an increase to cash rewards of something like 25%?

Just throwing our some tweak ideas...

I am starting to think it may not be the random lottery we think, could when you fight or your connection speed alter the likelihood of getting something?

Solare : This doesn't quite make up for lost money. While I like the drop system, I think it needs to be adjusted. The rate should definitely be higher.

The Drop Rate could be raised a bit but I personally think that would just saturate the market with items that people do not really have the money for in the first place. That would just make items become worthless in the long run because they would no longer have value. Supply and Demand is the name of the game, too much supply no demand. In the long run this would defeat the purpose of the increased drop rate versus the reduction in CDB.

But

The Reduction in % of CBD taken for this change lowered from 20% to 10% would be a better solution, that I think, everyone could live with. Overall I think the Rare Item Drop change is one of the best ones I have seen so far. The only real problem is what everyone has already stated, the cost is too high. This makes it feel like a forced lottery, in essence making them feel jilted every time they do not get a drop. The ones getting the "Good Drops" are actually benefiting from this, which in a way is the purpose, just not at the cost to all. Bottom line it is dividing the community and this is the last thing we really need here, we have enough division as it is.

In the end this is making most CBers hate this change because they do not get anything for it or what they do get is not worth their time because no one would want to buy it anyway.


Another Solution:


Make it an OPTION to play the Rare Item Drop Lotto.

The CBer Opts to buy a ticket for a day, week, or month to take the reduced reward for a chance to get that Rare Item Drop.

This would completely solve the "I didn't have a choice!" attitude because they didn't get anything, or something of little to no value.
You bought the ticket so in the end it was YOUR choice get over it!

Another Solution:

Make it a part of a Wacky Time! I am not sure how this could be implemented to balance it out. Maybe make it Rare Item Lotto all day on Sundays. People would know what to expect and be ready for it, one day will not make as big a difference as all the time like now. Plus this could make CBers have something to look forward to like some for the Big EXP and Money Times.


Just a few thoughts.......................

I have recieved 2 items so far. One was a good item that made me 1.5 mil and the other is a lesser tattoo. I think some are looking at this backwards. I have to admit I was also looking at this the same way, but now after reading everyones oppinion and thinking from different peoples perspective I think this could work.


If a person was to start today and not know that there was a 20% drop in money, would they enjoy this aspect of the game. Jon has to try to find a way to keep people playing. Remember that. I personally think the money issue will work itself out. Oh and before people gripe. I am in debt and this is hurting the quickness of paying off the debt and increasing the cbd I have to upgrade my team even more, but the excitement of getting a drop or watching your battles to see if one drops brought back excitement to clicking. Or at least it has to me. I still continue to buy all my ba everyday and click like usual, but now I have something to look at during each click .. kinda hoping to see that blue bar at the top.... instead of just endless clicking.

Just my opinion and I think maybe if we look at different perspectives it changes the look of how this is working. Oh and I will admit that even if I hadn't gotten an item. After looking at it like this I think I would still like the change, I would just be hoping even more for some kind of drop. lol.

Sox,

That is great you found 2 items, one a nice drop with 1.5M.

But what about all those who have played for years, now getting a 20% drop in rewards and have still gotten NO drops.

Or someone like me who is now just even with his one mid ranged drop.

CB is a strategy game, not a RPG. Drops have little place in a strategy type game as Tyriel pointed out a bit ago.

If someone starts today, they get the NUB and its super bonus to xp and cash. When that runs out, let them see how nice it is barely making enough money guaranteed to buy BA and perhaps rent an item.

Forget about upping tank weapons or even mage ones to a nice NW. Unless, of course, you get lucky like you did and hit the lottery.

But what about all those who have not? This blue bar at the top changes nothing with my fighting. The drops are so infrequent I have started to not even look. 1 in over 5k battles is a very low rate. Something that if I were a new player would not change one thing about playing.

Well that might be your perspective of it ranger, but maybe someone elses perspective might be that that kind of thing is exciting, and you talk like I haven't played for a bit of time and plodded along without the NUB trying to catch up and make my gear better. I know what it's like grinding away. I also have the distinct pleasure of doing it without USD so I do know what it's like to try my best and still come up short vs someone that can buy their way up the ranks. I know what it's like to try to upgrade a weapon slowly over time and pay of debts for almost a year straight to pay for those upgrades. I am just saying to give this time. I might not get another item for 3 months, but I have just looked at the new rewards as how they are and not keep saying how much I am losing compared to before, and because of that I don't get upset if I don't see an item. I have gotten one and feel I was lucky and probably in teh end will end up lower in cb than I would have been the old way, but look at my last part..... THE OLD WAY. things change in this game and have for better and for worse, but yet we keep on rolling. I personally have accepted this one and no matter if I never see another drop I will just keep going like I have for the last year or so. You can continue to rail against it as long as you like. I was just trying to give a different perspective to try to help people maybe see how this change could be good for CB, but if you don't want to look at other views and continue to only look at the bad points then so be it. I will try to look at the glass half full view and hope for the best :) Have a great Sunday.

From: system Sent: 3:30 AM EDT Delivered: 11:10 AM EDT
Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Halidon Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

In auctions now, hopefully I get some more drops soon.

bah.. have been using close to all my ba's.. still no drops for me..

Sox,

Not all change is good.

To say something is good since it is change is unfair to all those who have not gotten squat in the 12+ days since it was enacted.

Yes,

Those that got 2 or more drops or 1 uber drop likely love the change.

But what about all those who have gotten either crap or nothing?

How fair is it to them?

i agree with sox on this one, i think the drops may give people a little extra motivation to stick around. it will likely take a few months to see if that pans out though so we should probably accept that the change will be around that long at least.

i definitely do not see this as a change just for the sake of changing. i see it as an added gameplay element.

I'd like to either see the drop rate increased or the reward reduction reversed a little - 20% is a bit high, IMO - but honestly even if it isn't, the fact that this change brought a little more excitement to fighting makes it worthwhile in my book.

It can be frustrating for people who don't get drops and watch other people brag about getting two drops and making two million easily. I can see how someone might want to quit because of this.

I really feel that the drop element of the game will have no impact on if someone stay or leaves.

The drops are so infrequent, likely 1 every 5k or more battles, it does nothing to change the strategy of CB.

If someone wants to play and likes CB for the strategy game it is, they will stay. If they do not, I hardly think drops will change their mind with the infrequency of them.

If they were every day or every other perhaps, but imagine another game with a drop every week keeping peoples interest. I hardly think so.

If we are going to keep this lottery, then let's have real drops. Not 1 per week or less on average. Have more drops. Have it be little CB and plenty of drops, both rares and non-rares. Make each battle interesting.

But it seems to me very amusing that those on the positive side of the spread sheet seem to say "it is fine, give it time" and those on the negative side of the balance sheet really dislike it.

I have seen 1 person who has gotten nothing say give it time, at least what I can remember from all the posts.

The longer this "experiment" goes on, the longer people will be either behind or ahead of the CB2 equation. And with random elements, it will never be equal, leading to some very skewed results.

really only time will tell who is right, so all we can do is wait...and discuss. ; )

I have yet to get a drop, but I still like the concept a lot. I have the patience to wait and see how this plays out.

I also have the patience but I also find it a bit frustrating to see other people being 'given' a nice shiny item worth 1-2 mil while I remain there itemless.

Shade,

Your opinion does not matter until you have went a few months without a drop.

Then perhaps someone will listen :)

Geez, Ranger, can you be more sarcastic in most of your posts. I really don't think you are trying your best at sarcasm.

Well Sox,

It is all I hear from those lucky enough to win the lottery.

Be patient, your time will come, this is great.

But what happens if people do not get lucky in a month, or 2 or 3?

When it is time to say things are too unfair for a strategy type game?

We have passed well over 5k battles for a lot of people without any drop.

Or do we just say this is how it is and o well to those unlucky to win the lottery? You did not even have your chance and blew it?

When has jon ever taken information to make decisions on from only 10 or 11 days? I'm sure he is collecting data and knows who has what and who hasn't gotten anything and how much cb is being lost in total. I'm also pretty positive that most people that fight will get something before 1 month is up. Yes I got lucky, but I still figure in the long run I will be equal or behind what used to be the reward system in the past. I also believe I won't be complaining about it. It's the new system... Until it's changed then this is how it is. Complaining constantly does nothing but make you look childish because you aren't getting your way.

You have made your point. If the point is valid then something will be done about it. If it's not the way the developers want the game to go then they will leave it like they want. I just don't see the point of saying it over and over and over in thread after thread... but again. if you want to do that, which is by all means your right to do then go ahead, but unfortunately after awhile all the complaining just pools up and sounds the same and your actual good arguments get overlooked because people are tired of reading it. just my opinion.

PS... don't take this as me hating you. I really enjoy a lot of your thoughts about this game and feel you are passionate about it, but I do feel sometimes you go overboard trying to get your point across... again like my first post... Have a great Sunday.

"When has jon ever taken information to make decisions on from only 10 or 11 days?"

1) AoJ
2) MoD
3) multiple evasion changes
4) BoE
etc...

There have been plenty of instances.

But the longer this goes on, the longer the inequality goes on.

That is something I personally dislike. If we want to give NUBs the same chance as vets, or balance mage and tank damage, why are we introducing such a random factor into CB?

You got lucky, while you did not, enjoy trying to keep up :) Enjoy your stay in CB. Enjoy watching all those around you getting millions of CB in drops while you get nothing or that extra special lesser familiar.

As money is a huge component to how effective one can play.

And PS sox: I love you man.

"If the point is valid then something will be done about it"

Shall we chat about the enforcer's crossbow for a bit? 2+ years of valid points and nothing done.

"Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Tattoo of Augmentation lvl 20. Use it well!" Yay! Bids are now open

1st enforcer xbow needs to be changed
2nd BA costs needs to be edited to match the reduce in earnings
3rd rolling bonus should be implemented( on exp only of course, but target the 0% rolling bonus at the edge of 6/20 )

i personally havent gotten an item since the change and i still like it

OMG SECOND ITEM I LOVE THIS UPDATE !!!111


It's elven stiletto. So no.

It could be like waiting for a bus, doesn't turn up, then suddenly 3 come at one. Dunno if its only me who has heard that saying.

But thats only my opinion as i have had a nice drop, it is harsh though for people not getting them.

But if the bus never comes and you miss that appointment, who cares if 3 come later :)

I love how everyone is fighting/arguing about having it or not but no one has even given any other ideas a once over to see if they like them or not. I posted Several Ideas @ 10:46AM EDT and not even 1 person has Commented on them. Instead they have pursued argumentative standpoints. Let me let ALL OF CB in on something.

THE ONLY TIME JON HAS EVER CHANGED ANYTHING IS WHEN WE AS A COMMUNITY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN AGREEMENT!


The Petition on the AOJ is definitive proof of that!


Arguing over a moot point is useless. I am not trying to say that my particular ideas are the only savior of CB. What I am saying is that it all starts with an idea then it grows until everyone agrees that it is a good idea. Agreeing on a Point and Drawing a proper Petition Reflecting that agreed upon Point, then getting the members of this community to sign it will move mountains!

I think most of us have stated that the rate of CB loss is too high.

The drop rate is too low.

I would love an option to opt out of this forced lottery.

Just make a poll...

Poll results:

Those that got nice items via drop: All but perhaps 1 or 2 love the change. "It is great, Give it time, Let us get a longer sample size"

Those that got nothing so far: All hate it but 1 or 2. "This sucks, I am losing money, I have no positive income to upgrade my items, Why am I forced to play this lottery"

Those that are breaking even: Split.

A poll would not do much as there are some that clearly are benefiting from the change while others are stagnating.

Before we could make a Poll we would have to agree as a community on the options in this Poll.

My Suggestions are as follows:

1. Lower the Percentage from 20% to 10%

2. I would rather have a higher Drop Rate.

3. The option to buy the ticket for a Day/Week/Month is better.

4. Make it a Wacky Time or Day once a week!


Feel free to agree or disagree or add to these points. :)

No, no and NO! You guys are over complicating it. Ranger, if that's what you think fine, but it's what everyone thinks and they're going to be numbers, so don't say you know the results. If the majority of people believe it's for the better then you can't be right in saying it should be changed.

Simply:

Keep it
Kill it
More cash, less chance
Less cash, more chance.

There you go. CB has a MASSIVE habit of overcomplicating EVERYTHING I've ever seen exist in life. I'll CM Shade about it, :/ sorry for asking.

Flamey:

What if people wanted the option to buy the ticket instead of being in it when they don't want to be? What about it being implemented into a Wacky Time what is wrong with that? Having a change in percentage? what is so complicated about that?

Despite your name why did you Flame? Ideas make things work Flamey, jumping people cause huge problems because people forget the issues and pursue and argument which is counter productive in the first place. State you ideas fine, Flaming people because you do not agree is outright wrong.

Anyways I just want my money rewards back, I most likely won't be getting any drops so just give me back my rewards. I don't care about drops, anymore.

From: system (10:35 PM EDT)
Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Gloves of Mercy [0] (+7). Use it well!

Better then nothing.

Drops to date:
Halidon Familiar
Gloves of Mercy +7

Again with the disclaimer: I'm not against dropping rares. I like it, though I do wish the money reduction was closer to 10%. I'm trying to track my streak of bad luck to see if I can hit 10k fights without winning an item.

11 days x (576 natural + 192 buy-in) = 8448 subtotal - 80 or so that were missed = 8368 estimated total

I honestly think I have the most fights without a find out of all CB, and I say that because of the "free" buy-in for being a NUB.

I'm starting to take pride in this horrible streak. :)

(Demi if that's true i am close 2nd with 7000-8000 fights

Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Mithril Chain Mail [28] (+4). Use it well!

Also it came delivered in my CM. Not sure if that is new or not...anyways long time coming.

Also happened on my very last fight for the night....I thought....oh god another day without a drop :-(

It's amazing how some people already got 2 (Anyone got more than 2 drops so far ?) , and yet there are other people who didn't get it at all...

I still haven't got anything so far... :(

This change is awesome but the price is too high. lower it to 10% money reduction and i guarantee that you will see no more complaints or i will bite my bum and take a picture of me doing it.

BUTT that would be un-pg :)

All things regarding cash rewards decreasing aside, (because that part of this I can understand, especially as I'm running a tank team), but if the drops are RANDOM why is everybody expecting one? Surely if they're random then not everybody is going to get one?

Where did we get this attitude around these parts that we deserve to have everything? Or do the words RANDOM and RARE not mean the same here as they do everywhere else?

They are going by a theory of distribution or something that says EVENTUALLY everyone will receive at least one item.

Actually, Nayab, no it does not.

As you spend more and more BA, the likelihood of "NOT" getting something goes down, but it never really reaches zero.

There are lots of geeks here, so it won't surprise me when someone does some analysis and figures out the distribution (1 in 1000? 1 in 10,000 BA)?

I haven't gotten anything, but I think the change is interesting. I suspect it will need to be tweaked at some point.

I would love to know what the drop rate is. My feeling is that it's in the 1:4000-5000 range, but that's a wild, wild guess.

I am posting to say that unless someone else has gotten 3 items but not posted I just received my 3rd item. I have gotten a pair of EB, lesser familiar and an ELS.

JW,

That is the underlying problem.

CB as stated is a strategy game. How can people compete if they are not given the same abilities?

USD aside for a minute, how do non-USD spenders compete.

Look at Sox, 2M or more CB in drops. Compared to someone who has gotten nothing. That is a certain disadvantage to the other person.

And Sox has just as much chance for a 4th drop as the other person has for his first.

People in CB keep typing about equality. Jon included. Give everyone an equal chance/shot at the title. Do not blow your chance etc...

We try to balance almost everything. But this is the antithesis of that. A introduced random element that can game change things. Something over time that may equal out, but still NCB players get another restart tax. Pay uber amounts for BA or get a less chance to win the lottery. NCBers have enough going against them in their quest to make it to the top ranks.

These are the reasons I hate this change. No matter if I received 10 drops so far.

While I give a clap to Sox, I really care more about all those who have not yet received anything.

it is still equal, everyone has the same random chance.

rewards have always had a random factor built in to their calculation. we always thought it was fair before, did we not? i certainly do not remember anyone showing proof that their random rewards averaged out below others.

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

First thing that came into my head when I read Ranger's latest post. =)

Dude: A difference of a couple hundred CB$ over time won't make a difference. A couple million, however, because somebody got a Corn and somebody else got a LToE, will.

and that would matter only if we were all capped at one item. over time it will average out just as the monetary and xp random rewards do.

just like in the lotto that ranger likes to compare it to, everyone has an equal chance of winning. the only thing that can change those odds are buying more tickets.

in cb we can fight more battles, this is one of the main reasons i like it, it does rewards those more dedicated and will hopefully encourage everyone to be more dedicated or give them a reason to fight more!

if we all are using our max ba then the rewards will average out over time exactly as the money and xp has always done.

i also do not see the last part as an inequality issue due to the fact that if people weren't fighting their full ba every day before they already were not getting equal rewards as opposed to someone who was.

People play the lotto every day.

One person wins 15M and others 0. They all had the same chance.

But the lotto is elective, this lottery is not.

There's a poll about this, go go go.

For anyone saying this will help keep players, I say pfft.

One drop in over 6k battles will do nothing to peak interest in the game.

Especially from players who are used to classic RPGs where one gets an item per enemy or group of enemies defeated.

I really can see little purpose of this feature other than to introduce a random element designed to give a few people a possibly large advantage over others.

IE someone getting a corn as a drop vs a LTOE or GoM. Both count as a drop, yet can impact a character in vastly different ways.

"For anyone saying this will help keep players, I say pfft.

One drop in over 6k battles will do nothing to peak interest in the game."

as i stated earlier in the thread, we are each of us entitled to our opinion and truly only time will tell who was right.

"Especially from players who are used to classic RPGs where one gets an item per enemy or group of enemies defeated."

all of the mmorpg's i have played for 12 years now that have had any kind of balanced economy and no cheats have kept rares rare.

"I really can see little purpose of this feature other than to introduce a random element designed to give a few people a possibly large advantage over others."

i am glad we have devs with a vision and the willingness to at least try things.

"IE someone getting a corn as a drop vs a LTOE or GoM. Both count as a drop, yet can impact a character in vastly different ways."

why have you not complained about randomness with rewards before this change? can you not see that it all evens out given time and dedication?

reward randomness does even out over time, this system will not.

"reward randomness does even out over time, this system will not."

stating what you think of as a fact confidently doesn't in fact make it any more true.

it is statistically likely.

True the majority will be relatively even, but there will be some big winners and some big losers and the gap between them will be large.

That is the most likely outcome.

if it is statistically likely, can you show me the math? or explain why?

or are you also stating that this has been going on for years with the random xp & cash rewards? elaborating on the difference that you feel separates the two cases will allow us to judge the accuracy of your claim as well.

The randomness in rewards before were not that noticable. In fact, I have no idea they were random from person to person.

I assumed those with similar PRs get the same average rewards.

Again, how long to we try this experiment before it gets too much.

Almost 2 weeks now and plenty of people without 1 drop while some are looking for their 4th.

Want to chat about discouragement, speak to those people. Instead of generating interest, there is as much uninterest if not more. At least with those I converse with.

I think we all can agree there is no such thing as a "rare" item. That is one that is hard to find. That was tried with supporter items and there was so much moaning Jon made the Speciality Shop.

So why introduce a random element to the game that thrives on being more static with respect to items and rewards?

To keep people interested? After 6.5k battles, I am far less interested in the drops and more interested in my lowered rewards.

"I assumed those with similar PRs get the same average rewards."

just as those with similar battles fought will get the same average rare drops in a give time period.

dudemus states "...only time will tell who is right..."

Can you define "right" for me? If it stays in effect, that doesn't make it "right". If player retention stays about the same, that doesn't make it "right". If a lot of people hate it, but other people don't mind it, that doesn't make it "right".

That's the whole problem with this new drop scheme, in my opinion -- nothing matters. It doesn't help with anything, other than the small atavistic rush one gets when seeing a flash of a rare being dropped (if one even notices it!). No one else has listed a single, viable advantage to this new scheme other than, "it's sorta neat, I don't mind it..." Is that a resounding endorsement?

On the other side, the factual problems with this scheme are the following:

-- Drops are not always of value to a team, and some rares are downright worthless.
-- Less actual cash in the game will lead to prices going up and to tanks having a hard time getting the NW consistently that they need to upgrade gear.
-- Less cash for BA buying, meaning fewer battles, meaning fewer drops... Vicious cycle.
-- Harder to be fiscally responsible. if you can't plan, you can't budget. To me, that takes earnestness away from the game, and also can cause trouble with loans, etc.
-- It is an enforced lotto. Actually, that raises an interesting question: if it became optional, how many people would choose to try the lottery and how many people would simply go back to consistent cash rewards? If you would stay with the lottery, please be very specific as to why.

I would love to hear the solid, clear advantages to this new scheme, and have stated an open mind to that effect since this change came into play. (and by the way, I've received TWO drops since it started, and still dislike it...) Does anyone care to list the real benefits other than a tiny rush (that several people have yet to experience, meaning they won't have a rush at all when it happens -- more like a "FINALLY! GRRRR!")

Anyone?

I can't prove it with maths as I don't know the actual numbers involved and I've forgotten all that stuff anyway :)

I just know that the variance will be far higher for the random drops than the random rewards.

Certainly the drops may equilibrate over time.

But is a corn the same as a lesser tat of endurance?

I think not and that is a high variation on the value of the drop.

If people are getting 1 drop every 2 weeks, which may be a good guestimate, how long will it take before things even out in monetary value in drops?

Months? Years?

It gets quite disheartening to see someone get a nice new set of EBs when your only drop is a GoM. Something that will likely not retain new players.

"just as those with similar battles fought will get the same average rare drops in a give time period."

That is not correct Dude the drops will take much longer to even out as the variance is much greater, even then the gap between the best/worst off will be bigger.

my definition of right is reversing the trend of a shrinking population. wrong would therefore then be continuing that trend of member loss.

i have already stated that the biggest plus i see to this change is that dedication is rewarded.

another plus in my mind is if there is less cash floating around then hopefully there will be less cash to be sold.

the atavistic rush is nice as well, as humans we do many things for that reason solely...or at least some of us do. ; )

If there is less cash to be sold and more cash wanted, prices will rise> multies will have a decent incentive to return > more cash floating about > prices go down >multies go away agian...

the battles fought would remain constant (or if i am correct may increase) how would the variance increase? yes it is more rare and therefore will take longer to even out, but it will even out.

My rush was like getting 99% cut stuff ;)

The wildly differing value rares increases the variance.

so you are saying that it is possible for someone to get all eleven stilettos after playing for four years while another player gets all hal familiars?

this is no different than claiming someone had always gotten the low end of cash and xp rewards while someone else got the best. both also have the same likelihood of happening after a certain amount of time. granted, that amount of time might be different though.

"That's the whole problem with this new drop scheme, in my opinion -- nothing matters."

+one billion sutekh. I couldn't agree more.

Well plenty of older players hate this change. Some like it as they have already got drops.

But if older players hate it, getting 1 drop every week or two weeks, what does that say about new players? Hoping to get one of these magical drops.

Getting nothing for 2 weeks then getting the dreaded LTOE, or GoM, or MC. That rush becomes a "This item is utter garbage" or "I waited 2 weeks for this?".

Sut very elegantly put all the key points in his recent post.

New players trying to play a tank now, with the 20% reduction to the NUB money is much harder.

I am sure you heard of Pavlov. And his positive reinforcement on dogs.

What is occurring is a Intermittent Schedule of Reinforcement. Not a fixed one but a variable one. It is well know that this type of reinforcement schedule is not very good at teaching new behaviors. Such as we want in CB, the behavior to click and get a "reward". Reward as in rare, as money is a type of continuous reinforcement.

What happens in other RPGs is more of a continuous reinforcement. Kill a mob and get an item. Items get better as you get more powerful.

How many games do you know that give a rare every 5k battles or mobs? None that I know of that are successful.

If something has to be done with rare drops, then it needs to be modified into a more frequent occurrance and with less penalty to cash rewards.

...more like a "FINALLY! GRRRR!"

I am very much as this state when I finally see one. And it better be a good drop else It will be a double GRRRR!

Or drop frequency needs to increase based on your score/PR ratio and the PR ratio between you and your opponent, and drop rate also needs to increase the longer you've gone without a drop and decrease after you get one.

New AND old players ought to be able to get items with at least some reasonable frequency to offset the huge dip in cash rewards. There are definitely still players who spend lots of BA (Shade and I, for starters) who have still gotten nothing to show for the reward reduction. It's a stiff penalty to deal with.

Add that to the fact that I've been saving my money for a contest this summer (11.5M and counting), and things look very, very bleak for my next couple NCB's.

I know it means very little, but this change (and plenty of other factors, some personal) has made me seriously consider quitting CB. Getting a "leg up" just isn't going to happen any time soon, so what's the point? :\

dudemus, as a plus, you state:

"i have already stated that the biggest plus i see to this change is that dedication is rewarded."

I am afraid I don't understand how that is different from simply getting more cash via rewards via dedication. I assumed the "plus" points in support of the rare drop scheme would be distinct from what we already had with simple cash rewards being higher.

Can you clarify how a drop scheme rewards dedication more than just getting more cash rewards via fighting does?

And I might actually agree with the "rush" part except it is clear many folks do not even see the announcement on the fight page (for very real reasons, e.g. playing on a smartphone), and plenty of others will not enjoy it when they do -- they will simply think "'bout time!" or far less PG sentiments if things go the way Mikel mentions above -- a bad drop.

And yes, dudemus, it IS possible that someone gets a very, very bad and very, very long run of terrible drops due to the simple fact that prices change. So even if the same smattering of items eventually drops on everyone, what about the folks who get a valuable drop when it is valuable, while others get the same drop when the price has dropped (due to changes, etc.) Yes, you COULD say that even that will level out "given enough time", but how much time are we giving here? Twice the lifetime of CB? Two years? Three months? Even a few months makes it hard for people to plan, pay debts, etc.

Wouldn't we rather reward fiscal responsibility and the ability to plan, rather than "oh well, didn't get a drop, have to switch to being a mage now..."?

Goodfish, trying to "game" the randomness (like reducing likelihood after getting one, and increasing after a long gap) is not a good idea as far as I undestand probability. You are essentially messing with the randomization, exacerbating the problem. That just adds another randomness level until pretty soon it is just a stepwise function. Like every 1000 battles you get a drop. Randomess either needs to be given the keys or have the keys taken away.

If it goes back to being a function, then it should simply go back to being a constant function -- raise cash rewards back up.

"I know it means very little, but this change (and plenty of other factors, some personal) has made me seriously consider quitting CB. "

There you go.

Someone considering quitting while I see no new players saying this change is so great that I was thinking about leaving but now will stay due to it.

It adds nothing to gameplay. It is not like the uber corn of all seeing (+4% per +) is a drop. It is a regular corn that will make someone lucky enough to get it 2M, while those lucky enough to get a GoM get 5k.

And I bet more then 2/3 the item people get, they cannot use. So back into auctions they go.

This is just shifting money around. Nothing new or innovate to keep people in CB.

sut, that was kind of my point- I was making a reductio ad absurdum. ;)

Ha ha, GF! Well done!

"i have already stated that the biggest plus i see to this change is that dedication is rewarded."

I have to chime in on this point. And agree with Sut and his post.

Dedication was already rewarded by both cash rewards and MPR.

I tried not to miss BA due to both those factors. Higher MPR gave higher cash rewards so it was a nice vicious cycle.

Will these random drops change my thinking? Certainly not. In fact, I get less guaranteed rewards for dedication. Less positive reinforcement for clicking the Fight button constantly.

And to get 1 item every few thousand clicks does nothing for me. And if I get that unlucky Lesser Tattoo, I may just throw my computer out the window in frustration.

sut is right about it not rewarding us any more than the old system.

would you guys admit that it is fun to get random drops if we had no cash reward reduction to go along with it?

"would you guys admit that it is fun to get random drops if we had no cash reward reduction to go along with it? "

Interesting question.

It would be fun, but not fair. And I think we want CB to be a mostly level playing field to see who is the better player.

This change really messes with that. And yes USD does so also.

But if the drops were something like a tag or something smallish, like a way to increase your T shirt 1 AC point, perhaps. Something that does not really effect gameplay but is really cool to have.

Non transferrable of course.

"Something that does not really effect gameplay but is really cool to have."

...like Blood Vials...? (sorry, I had to)

"It would be fun, but not fair. And I think we want CB to be a mostly level playing field to see who is the better player."

yet you are okay with the random rewards averaging out over time, why not this? with battle rewards you get some good, some bad and some in between. with drops it is the same and thus also averages out over time. it is fair, it only appears to not be fair with such a small amount of experience we now have with it.

i think that if it was always this way would accept it as being just as fair as the battle rewards.

dudemus, good question... I would not want random drops even if cash was back the way it was because it just doesn't feel "right" in CB-land.

There is no free lunch in CB. When wacky times came along, Jonathan reduced the non-augmented reward to level things out. Also, wacky times are practically optional, depending on your accrual rate. You can work around them, or work toward them, spending BA in strategic spots, etc. Wacky times are downright genius when it comes to gameplay, and they qualify on my litmus test:

-- Choice. You can decide what to concentrate on, or just about opt out entirely.
-- It's fun. Something different, and yet consistent enough to plan for as an individual (or as a clan, if that is your thing).
-- It "fits" with CB, because it is balanced on an immediate time scale. You get more experience (instantly) while receiving less cash (instantly), or vice versa. It can never get out of whack over time, because it is immediately self-balancing.

Let's compare that to how this drop lottery fails in these regards:

-- No choice. We all have to play the lottery.
-- It's fun? If it does level out over time, then even the rush will wear down into simply reacting with, "Finally, now I can go upgrade my weapon or buy BA for a while, assuming I can get any cash for this thing!" If it doesn't level out over time, then it isn't fun because it isn't fair.
-- "Fits" with CB? Let's see, what else in CB is random over relatively large periods of time? Oh yeah...nothing. This drop lottery is not like anything else, and has been introduced after YEARS of REMOVING randomness from the game. Additionally, it doesn't fit with other economic aspects of CB because the reduction of free cash in the game will lower prices (I think I said increase on a previous post -- my bad) on items while BA costs, upgrade costs, and minion costs remain the same.

And if we got the cash back AND the drops, it would be even more out of whack on the "fit" point, because it would be a "free lunch".

So, "no" A thousand times "no" to the whole scheme.

"This drop lottery is not like anything else, and has been introduced after YEARS of REMOVING randomness from the game."

i cannot argue with that and have no proof that they are related, but what has our population done in that time?

if you knew this would increase the population, would it be a slam dunk? if you knew that jon was going to decrease cash rewards regardless and had been thinking of it for a while and gave us the random rewards to take the sting out, would you accept it more?

i am not saying these things are true, i am just wondering if it would change anyone's mind or opinion.

I think any debate regarding what is good for the population size is moot until we have an adequate tutorial.

If this would increase the CB population then may perhaps possibly. If it attracts a lot more people and no other random event changes come about. But....

We may lose just as many since it is so out of line for what is the essence of CB.

CB is not a role playing game. It is unlike all things we have played and that is why we have gravitated to it. And stayed years not months.

The better question perhaps should be:

Would you want to change the essence of what CB is to appeal to more players? Since that is what this drop system is.

Again, I would love to have more players, but in the CB I know and love.

Are we going to make CB like every other game out there to attract people? I hope not.

You want to attract more people?

1) Simple, add a rolling bonus. That would make CB far more enjoyable for many more than this drop system. In fact, over 80% if not more of CB wants such a system. The many advantages to gameplay have been discussed in many other threads.

2) Fix the bugs promptly.

3) Fix the inequalities such as the exbow promptly. Not after 2+ years. It is things like this that get people upset. Seeing inequalities staying for months and years. Just like evasion in the past. Everyone knew it was wrong and it took months to fix.

4) More aggressive advertisement.

5) Make an iPhone app for playing CB.

But this drop system/lottery does nothing to promote the game and adds virtually nothing to it. Except a lot of unhappy people who are losing income.

Sut and myself may be the purists of the group, not wanting any drop system even if the money rewards are restored. But as stated, this drop system adds almost nothing except heated debate.

Of which, I am glad to say, is exceptionally civil. Kudos to all who posted and stayed on course without degenerating into name calling etc...

6) Make a good tutorial. Thanks RD as I forgot that.

Until we have a good tutorial it will not get better, that is the number of players.

Remember, you have 1 chance for a first impression.

The 1st impression of CB now is chaos, wrapped in confusion.

Facebook!

"Goodfish, trying to "game" the randomness (like reducing likelihood after getting one, and increasing after a long gap) is not a good idea as far as I undestand probability. You are essentially messing with the randomization, exacerbating the problem. That just adds another randomness level until pretty soon it is just a stepwise function."

Not at all. By properly tweaking the initial drop rate and linear increase per failed event, you can create a distribution where not only is the mean time between events 1/p, but also the median, resulting in a much more balanced distribution. In addition, such a system guarantees a drop every once in a while.

perhaps i see it as adding back in the fun and excitement of camping, which before the scripters was a random chance of getting something.

with that in mind, i do not see it as an overall shift in the game and do see it as a return of some fun.

i can see where it might add nothing for you, i do think it adds to the game overall though. with that in mind, your question regarding do we change cb to bring in more population would become can we return to another type of gameplay we used to have in order to bring back vets or retain more new players. perception is everything and rarely are things as black & white as we would like to think they are.

As it stands, the median time between drops is actually 1.

Your auction for A Pair of Gloves of Mercy [0] (+7) has sold for $35,400.
Your auction for A Halidon Familiar lvl 20 has sold for $790,079.

Total Drop Profits to date: $825,479
Total Days: 12
Total BA Burned: ~7000

deif, isn't shooting for 1/p essentially making the whole thing a function? Like I said, anything that isn't totally random becomes a function-based distribution. (Yes, I realize RAND() is a function in its own right, but it is a different beast compared to continuous functions).

In other words, you might as well just make something drop every 1000 battles like clockwork if you are going to start massaging the "randomness" of the drop.

And in other, other words, then you might as well just raise cash back up and forget randomness altogether (like most of CB design/development has been going for years...)

dudemus, if all of these things were coming to pass anyway, yes, I would still question them. I don't question/comment based on inevitability. I comment based on things that I find out of balance or inconsistent. Consistency is the only truth. Consistency is more important than Jonathan, because without it, CB would become nothing more than Warbook, and Jonathan would be god of nothing. And as has been pointed out, several things seem inconsistent or out of balance with this change, while the best support we have for it is an absolutely unsubstantiated guess that this will help with retention, and/or a general feeling of, "sure, I like to gamble, so this seems as fun as anything *shrug*."

If you like to gamble, put a little spot machine emulator right beside CB when you play, and pull the handle once in a while. That would be EXACTLY the same as leaving the cash rewards as they were and getting rid of the drop lottery.

Maybe I am just not reading the right posts, but I have not seen a single person (much less a newer player) shout, "This the the GREATEST thing I have EVER SEEN!" Yet some fairly reasonable folks with a good understanding of CB and CB history are being rather vociferous in the other direction.

*slot machine

It's not so severe a tweak that you'll be expecting a drop every 1/p. With such a small p, the difference between P(1/p) and P(1/p - 1) is minimal. The main benefit comes from the linearly increasing probability, which ensures a minimum drop rate, which while significantly lower than p, is also nowhere near 0.

"Maybe I am just not reading the right posts, but I have not seen a single person (much less a newer player) shout, "This the the GREATEST thing I have EVER SEEN!""

even if that were happening i would doubt the overall results until i saw a population rebound, which is all that i am advocating is giving it some time and seeing what happens.

I think the odds of this one change retaining more people will correlate about as much as changing Hal's war cry to "I like vanilla!"

Not only do I not think it will make a difference, I don't see how anyone could even relate random drops and player retention -- at all.

deif, you are correct as usual, and if nothing else, what you are advocating should be worked into the drop system. 8000 battles with nothing while other folks, including me, have gotten two drops? That's beyond the pale.

"Not only do I not think it will make a difference, I don't see how anyone could even relate random drops and player retention -- at all."

if you cannot see it, it mustn't exist at all! ; )

If someone is going to stay, it will be due to the complexity of the game, its community and the style of gameplay.

I, like Sut, highly, no very highly doubt this change will statistically correlate with player retention.

You like the game or you do not.

Getting through the tutorial is such a pain now, it should have been the first thing fixed a while ago.

Someone is not going to come into CB and say "Gee this is great, after 10 days I got a katana and this makes all the fighting worthwhile".

But on the other hand, I can see someone saying "Gee I have been fighting for 10 days and got nothing, while others have gotten 2 nice items. This sucks, bye"

Which is more frequent? Getting 1 mediocre drop or 2 nice drops? The former by all the statistics I can see right now. And 10+ days is long enough to get an idea on the frequency and type of drops.

After 11-12 days, more people have gotten crap or nothing vs those who have gotten something nice and grand.

How does that look to new players we are trying to retain?

Correlation requires _some_ logical relation... What is that relation in this instance?

Look at the other things added to the game: clans, tattoos, gear, forging -- retention remains the same or drops.

So why would one tiny thing like random drops make a statistically noticeable difference?

I am not asking that out of stubborness -- I have fought and paid for many changes to the game (not actually caring if retention was aided, but hoping that would be a nice side-effect to a simply well-made game).

If random drops are "all that", then put it on the title page. If not, then how can it relate to retention?

Good point, Ranger, once again.

At best, if new players DO notice the drops, it will turn some off and turn some on -- back to "even steven".

But I guess I am just seeing what I want to see. *smile*

"How does that look to new players we are trying to retain?"

all that i am saying is that i am very willing to watch the numbers and see. intuition and opinion are the realm of forum debates. i will wait patiently for the numbers, which is also what i really hope that jon does.

incidentally, i hope he is also watching the economy numbers to see how that reacts as well.

'Which is more frequent? Getting 1 mediocre drop or 2 nice drops? The former by all the statistics I can see right now. And 10+ days is long enough to get an idea on the frequency and type of drops.'

Ranger has a point, but as JS was saying that can be modified.

it seems like enough people like it as a change and would understand how it could help, judging by the reaction to the lottery post ranger made as well as the poll that was created.

If you modify it so drops are more frequent, then monetary rewards will again be lowered.

The money/cash equity has to come from somewhere.

This change was to be a zero sum change. Nothing added or removed. Rares coming to us from auctions. Not created extra. Money removed that would be spent on those rares.

One can make it so you have less of a chance to get a rare if you already have one, but then you have to start to make it complex to add in the crappy rares.

Does 1 LTOE = 1 corn in the drop rates? Of course if you use numbers instead of value.

But... the more complex things are, the more chance for bugs.

Why make something complicated when we can go back to the old way and get our cash to spend as we want? Not being forced to pay for a possibility of a rare drop that we may or may not need/use.

That is what I do not understand.

One thing I think might be interesting would be tying in past auction values to drop frequency. Meaning, a player who gets a Corn as a drop will have a severely reduced drop frequency for a very long time, while somebody who gets an ES or a lesser tattoo will experience only a very slight reduction for a very short period of time.

I mean, honestly, "random" is not a very CB thing. I am starting to think drops should be given on a fixed interval, if at all, and item value MUST tie in to drop rate.

Frankly I'd just rather have the items spawn in auctions so everybody gets a fair shot. The current system doesn't add anything terribly interesting to the game.

I think the main problem with the current config is the items are not worth the reward loss... What i propose is rewards unique to the drop system and can only be forged (alittle something for the forgers) :) ps... Ba should still be adjusted...

"The current system doesn't add anything terribly interesting to the game."

it does seem to for some players. ; )

"it seems like enough people like it as a change and would understand how it could help, judging by the reaction to the lottery post ranger made as well as the poll that was created."

In my thread so far:

11 Yes
25 No

In the poll:

35ish% like it
45ish% hate it

Seems more dislike this change than like it.

Now to state something I think is very important.

Jon likely analyzed the game and the reward structure. Took into account the rares that were being spawned and their worth. Took into account the money being generated from all the fights. Then figured, with likely his precision, the exact amount rewards would have to be reduced to make this a zero sum event.

So for those who think we will get a less of a cut to rewards to 10%, there will have to be a cut in the drop rate. Making thing even harder to find.

So all those saying "perhaps if the rate of this or that or the other thing was changed I would like it", I say you cannot state that now. It is as it is. It may be titrated a bit, but I do not see a radical change in the structure of the money going in or out.

in the poll though, how many want to keep it in some form as opposed to removing it entirely?

Yes, it is 55/45.

However if we are chatting about new player retention, is 50/50 going to keep players?

1/2 will like it, some probably enough to stay due to it.

1/2 will dislike it, some probably enough to leave due to it.

Likely this is another zero sum event.

And given most of the current players in my post would not participate in such a lotto, is it benefiting CB enough?

"The current system doesn't add anything terribly interesting to the game."

it does seem to for some players. ; )

If I want a random drop system in a game, I will play any of eighty five bajillion RPG/adventure/quest game. Hell, I'll go play Sonic and collect rings.

CB does not need- and should not have- a random drop system, unless it is so egalitarian that it is in fact nonrandom.

I wouldn't take my vote to participate in a voluntary system like the forced one we have now as evidence I like the system or think it is good for CB.

the trouble though is that so few new players stay that we could say something like 95% are leaving now. can this make even a few change their minds? it wouldn't take many to reverse the trend for a steadily declining population.

all that i was claiming was the some people think it adds something interesting, no more.

dude, while I'm all for new player retention, I think it's pretty bloody obvious that there's a plethora of other ways to retain players- mainly, reworking the awful, broken, worthless joke of a tutorial, and fixing N*B bonuses. As well as bugfixing.

Adding the "item drop" system does NOTHING to make the game more enjoyable. It just makes it a headache, and needlessly complicates and imbalances things.

I'm still watching how things go, but a comment earlier peaked my interest and nobody really discussed it. Everyone is thinking the reduction of monetary rewards is completely related to this drop change. Like it was stated earlier, what if the money loss was coming no matter what, but Jon decided to add something on top of it so everyone wouldn't just go crazy because they lost 20% of their money rewards? I mean maybe he saw where there was just too much cb in the game and wanted it lowered and then on a creative thought added the possibility of drops to kinda lessen the blow of the 20% drop? Try to think from all angles when looking at a problem.. Sometimes it is not as simple as the most simple outlook on things.

Sox, I don't see that as a realistic angle, given the costs of buying BA (particularly for those buying in xp time ie. most players at the top) I can see no reason for Jon to reduce cash rewards.

I say we make the odds higher and give back 20%

The problem with taking away money rewards like this is that people who are running an ncb can't compete because we have to buy ba at ridiculously high prices and keep upgrading our equipment.

I wouldn't mind this change as much if we didn't get rares as drops. I would rather have them spawn in auctions where anyone can buy them.

Multi, use your head. That will never happen. Think about the community as a whole and the economy as the same. You make think that'd be cool cause you'd get more money and still get items, but it would destroy the market and make CB far to abundant.

I'm up to roughly 9200 fights with no drop. 10k, here I come.

Demigod I have you beat in the numbers department still no drop :)

WoC--PWNS June 15 11:39 PM EDT
Multi, use your head. That will never happen. Think about the community as a whole and the economy as the same. You make think that'd be cool cause you'd get more money and still get items, but it would destroy the market and make CB far to abundant.

Not really, if people like me use all their money on BA and there equipment. Money won't be as abundant as you think.

Zenai,

I've lost maybe 80BA since this started, and that's including buy-up BA (NUB). I know you have the means to buy tons of BA, but if you've purchased every bit of BA since this started -- and missed less than 80 -- I'm very much impressed. I hate to think of the cost, though.

'Not really, if people like me use all their money on BA and there equipment. Money won't be as abundant as you think.'

First, it's 'their' not 'there'. How can you make that mistake when you used it correctly five words before... =P

Second, if people have all the equipment they need as well as their BA bought, then they won't need money as badly...

im liking this american boy, american boyyyy

I'm tired, so I make a couple grammar mistakes big whoop. Anyways I use all my money on item upgrades and ba.

Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Spellboosters [4] (+4). Use it well! Thats makes item 3 for me =)

spellboosters!??!! thats 3 mil in the bag for you :X:X:XX:

This is starting to be like this game that I play in facebook.. one person got 10 rares, the other got 0.

I'm at more than 8000 (probably 9000) fights won. Still nothing.

No comment, just no comment.

First item... after nearly 2 weeks of nearly full BA use (so, about 7k battles, with almost 1 mil CB$ less that what I could have had if this horrible change didn't go through):

An Electric Familiar level 20

Boo. Just look at past auctions, the last one sold with 150k and not even Mr. Chairman wanted any part in it.
Oh well, I guess it's better than a katana.

I still hate a system based on luck. Why don't we grant MPR that way too ?

I still hate a system based on luck. Why don't we grant MPR that way too ?

Ditto!!

Sickone,

I know how you feel. Same amount of BA and I got a pair of EG I sold in auctions for 550k.

Not exactly the jackpot that would make me go "Wow, nice find".

I figure I am starting to be in the negatives overall since this began. I figure I am losing 100 CB a fight. My rewards were about 600 on average before the change. 12 days of fighting at 576 BA a day. I have used all my BA except a few. That is 691k of lost potential income since this started.

691-550 is 141k in the negatives so far.

I am sure some are over 2M+ in the positive.

I still have not gotten anything yet.

You and me both, Thak.

Gimme back my money!!!! I don't want these drops as I have got none.

From: system (9:48 AM EDT)
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Spellboosters [4] (+5). Use it well!


2 weeks to get my first.

Whooo!!!
You won the lottery!!!!

Grats on one of the top finds in the game.

That reminds me...

13.5 days have passed since this started. That means I'm now at:

(576 natural BA + 192 buy-up) x 13.5 = 10,368. Subtract 80 ba for some that were missed, and that leaves me with 10,288.

I've now fought roughly 10,288 battles with no drop. Oh, Mandos, why hath thou forsaken me?

Grats grasp, I'm still at:

From: system (5:19 PM EDT)
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Sling of Death [5x11] (+2). Use it well!


>.> <.< Meh.

Meh???

That is an item worth about 900k. Sell it and your in the black.

I am selling it. And then I'm using all the money gained from it to buy items for my next NCB. Thus the meh.

From: system (7:56 AM EDT)
Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Rune of Balrog Flame lvl 20. Use it well!

haventtt gotten an itme yetttttt

same

It has only been 15 days, give it time to equal out :)

w00t! I finally got something...

a Katana...

a bit of a let down there. Better than nothin' though.

And is that Katana incentive enough to keep you playing CB hoping for the next drop you will get?

That after all is the big question.

Or is it just a pathetic drop making you more upset at seeing others getting real riches? Making you feel more likely to leave than stay?

Or maybe it's neither of those extremes, and "a bit of a letdown, better than nothing."

I'm a little surprised to find lessers are included in the rare item drop list, but I shouldn't be surprised since it is everything in the auctions ;P

OK, seriously, if someone is that upset over getting a katana, some lesser tat or nothing at all while a small percentage of the random drops are jackpots, and is considering leaving, that person was just as likely to have left if Jonathan nerfed the current favorite strategy, or introduced some new item that made another strategy completely unfair, or whatever.

I like this game a lot. I've been here for over three years now. I almost never say anything... most of you probably have no idea who I am. But the constant complaining in this game is enough to make me want to leave. Either Jonathan has abandoned the game cause he hasn't done anything and people are thinking of leaving, or he drops a bomb like this and people hate it and complain nonstop and think about leaving. If this change upsets you so much, leave already.

And for the record, I have gotten two drops from this, an AOJ and a mithril cuirass. I could care less one way or the other about this new change... I've been playing less and less in the past couple months because I'm tired of seeing all the whining about every little thing, and if anything, the change hurts me more because it just piles on to that.

Have a nice day!

"And for the record, I have gotten two drops from this, an AOJ and a mithril cuirass. I could care less one way or the other about this new change... I've been playing less and less in the past couple months because I'm tired of seeing all the whining about every little thing, and if anything, the change hurts me more because it just piles on to that."

Great, so you haven't been very active and have had two drops already and here I am thinking that this is supposed to reward a dedicated person like myself who rarely misses any BA.

*Silly me

At this point i would be happy to get one of the bogus drops. Im still batting 0

Maybe something needs to be done to increase the chance if you burn all or close to all your BA.

IE: 2x chance for 90% or more BA spent in a 24 hour period, 3x if you burn all 100%, including bought BA.

Because in my view, this is getting beyond comical, into downright upsetting. I have used over 98% of all the BA I could during this time and got 1 drop, while a LOT of others who have used as much or more have gotten NOTHING.

While part time players have gotten 2-3 drops.

Again? How long are we supposed to wait to let things even out?

What don't you guys understand by "random"? Random, to me, implies it favors neither those who spend all their BA or those who miss a bunch.

Even though I'm heavily on the losing side thus far, I'm fine with the idea of drops. I just don't think lesser tats should be included... or even exist. After this long of waiting, I don't want Mandos to show his appreciation by giving me a soggy bag of crap.

"What don't you guys understand by "random"? Random, to me, implies it favors neither those who spend all their BA or those who miss a bunch. "

Let us talk a bit about probability and independent actions.

You have a 10% chance to catch a baseball while attending a game. So does the person sitting next to you.

You go to 10 games and he goes to 5. Who has the higher overall chance to catch a ball, or more balls?

10 x .1 = 1 <---- expected value

5 x .1 = .5 <---- expected value

Therefore the person who attends more games should catch more balls.

This same theory applies to the current lottery. Each chance is independent of the previous one.

Therefore more BA spend = higher expected value to get 1 or more rares.

It is very simple statistics.

I spent untold hours playing Diablo 2. A friend of mine spent maybe 1/2 the amount of time I did. There are very specific calculations for every drop possibility every time you kill a monster or open a chest. In the long run, I did find more elite unique items than he did. He did find a Lo rune on a random run when the highest I ever got was an Ist. My unique findings worked out just like your probability statistics reveal they should. But lets be honest here, I found a Wolfhowl after several hundred hours of game play. He found the Lo after a fraction of that amount. You guys are comparing my two finds to your lack of finds over the span of how many BA? While the probability should go up for you to find one, that doesn't necessarily mean that you will get it. Just like I could have been playing Diablo 2 for the past 5 years, every day, 24 hours a day, and never find a Zod rune, while you could go in there today and find one after not having played for months.

The real difference here: you are expecting to get a random drop each time you click, because statistics say it just should be so. The thing about statistics is they don't always work out that way the math tells you they should. Statistically speaking, if I go out and spend $1000 on lottery tickets, that should give me a much higher percentage chance than my buddy who goes out and spends $1. Thing is though, we almost always wind up going home with nothing, or he gets lucky and hits that big time $100 prize while I get nothing. In the end, I know I have the better odds, but I know it is still just random.

We never stated it was anything but random.

But you have gotten 2 drops and Mikel as well as others zero.

I myself getting in 98% of my BA have gotten 1.

While this system was designed to stimulate gameplay, it certainly has done the opposite for me and others.

Aside from that, your statement about random not favoring those who play more is simply incorrect.

In the long run, those who fight more should get more drops of more total value. Simple statistical probability. And yes, it was my major at UF before I went to graduate school.

But hearing a part time player such as yourself have gotten 1 great and 1 poor drop does nothing to help those who are looking for their first.

In fact, it makes those who have gotten crap so far feel rather dejected. A far cry from the stimulation this was supposed to provide the community. Yes, a few have felt that stimulation on finding a top level rare, but overall, more have gotten squat.

I don't feel too dejected, and all I've gotten is an Elven Stiletto! :P

I've also recently stopped playing as often, JF, because the amount of whining has increased dramatically.

I bow down to your superior statistical intellect.

Yep, its unfair, I've found more than some of the most dedicated players out here. But I also understand that if we let this system play out for another 2 years, rather than just the 2 weeks or whatever its been up and running, the statistics show that you, Mikel, and everyone else who uses every single BA every day is going to wind up having more drops than I get. I could very well never see another drop for every BA I ever spend. Most of the critics of this system are condemning it after giving it practically zero chance to play out. I got lucky, I don't claim anything else. But many people who are complaining are probably thinking "I have to get a drop this time, statistics tell me so." It doesn't always work out like that! I've been to say 100 baseball games in all my life. Never caught a ball. I also know people who have season tickets, have had them for 20+ years. Never caught a ball. I get it that statistics say they have the better odds. But they are just odds! That doesn't mean it will happen! Stop thinking of this as a straight "I play more, therefore I am entitled to more/I will get more."

Further, I understand that this can be very frustrating for some of these players. But for Pete's sake, try the stupid thing out for a while before you cry foul and demand it be changed.

Jag, the problem is, is that with the -20% reduction in rewards to compensate for the chance to get a drop, players are reaching the point where even if they got a 3m drop, they are still "losing" money.

I think many of us can understand the new reward system well enough to make an informed decision about it at this point. (without being influenced by drops we have or haven't got)

Jag,

How long do we try?

1 months? 3 months? 1 year or more?

Rubber made a great point. We have seen 2 weeks now and can see the drop rate frequency and how much money we are making/losing.

Unlike past threads, this has been exceptionally civil. I would hate to see people slow down playing or leave due to a disagreement about a change. Or disagreements in general as that is what happens when 200+ intelligent people are put together.

But assuming on average 500 BA a day for steady players. Assume 150 steady players, that is 75,000 BA a day. Then go for 15 days. That is over 1.12 Million battles already. If that is not enough time/information for people to make an informed opinion on something, I really would have a problem believing that.

This change does not really effect me or even Sut. If we wanted, we could buy a million or 2 CB and call it a day.

However, I really want to see this game succeed. So do others. And this change is the antithesis of what will do that. Aside from myself and a couple other of the more vocal people, plenty are not liking this change.

Some do and that is great, but about 1/2 the community really dislikes it. So if we did this to promote gameplay and to try to keep people, is a change that only 1/2 the people like going to do that? Likely not. And I have the statistic to prove my 1/2 point. Just look at Shade's poll and my thread on the subject.

But I will ask something that Sut did in a past post. What exactly does this change really add to the game? It is supposed to be a zero sum event. So it just redistributes the wealth around a bit. An easier thing to do would have been to introduce a random factor into rewards by 20%.

If it is the "wow!!" factor upon getting a rare, I challenge you to find someone with this "wow" after getting a lesser tattoo, or katana. They are most likely sold to the store or put in auctions for under 10k BIN.

A few people have gotten lucky and hit that "wow!!". But most others have not. In fact, I personally, after burning 300 BA, get dismayed at yet again getting zilch. And I know others feel the same. How is that good for player retention. Which is what we all want, no?

What about a change that actually adds something? A new item, a new spell/skill. Fixing obviously broken items.

NS has been incredible in bug fixes. And ALL the community is very joyful he is taking a more active roll in CB.

Not all changes are home runs, this is unfortunately one of them. This is not a reflection on CB, Jon or NS in any way. I enjoy the game, perhaps too much as my posts are quite intense at times.

I really do wish to see CB thrive, gain players, become something more special. However, I strongly feel this is not the way to accomplish this. And I am looking at it from a player's standpoint.

There are just too many more negatives to the system, as it is now, than positives for me to justify its existance.

However, it is Jon and NS's game. Kudos to them for making it fun and quite interesting. Never stale. However, sometimes watching from above and actually playing it can give different views on things.
I would just hope they take 1/2 not liking it as something to strongly consider.

That is all I got.

I won't argue with you that this isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. I completely agree that not every change is a homerun. Some are considered grand slams, others are complete duds. That is the way of things.

I guess my problem with most of the griping I've seen about this change is the "I want it, and I want it now" attitude. Its just not something that is designed to be like that. In that, I think its a change unlike just about everyone we've seen here (or at least I've seen here). Most of the time its a pretty straight forward thing that people can test out, try it in different forms, poke it, prod it, mold it, etc etc. This adds an element of randomness to it... you aren't guaranteed anything from fight to fight. And that I think, is one of the main problems with it from many people's perspective. People were guaranteed X amount of money prior to the change. They now have a smaller portion of that, along with a chance (albeit a very slim one) of a rare drop which could be awesome or it could be crap. They have no way to control this. Either it drops, or it doesn't, based on the random factors introduced by Jonathan. This isn't a change that people can manipulate, or bring to bear in their strategy. And that is something that people don't like, we all like to control our own little thing, and we can't do that now. But to me, that isn't reason enough to save we should dump it... I think that this is something that can add an element to the game, if tweaked in the right way.

Even though I don't think this is the greatest change ever, do I think it could encourage some people to stay? Perhaps. Could it encourage some people to leave? Perhaps. As I stated in an earlier post, it is my feeling that if something like this is enough to make a player contemplate leaving, that player was just as likely to leave if Jon had partially nerfed something that they liked. I agree, its a -meh- change, and could use some tweaking to how it works.

I certainly am one for intelligent discussion on the pro/cons of things. I'd much rather see that than this turn into a flame fest. I'd also like to see more people discuss this. Pretty much we have the people who are against this constantly speaking up. Where are the people who like this? What do you have to say about this?

This is just my own two cents. Take it for what it is, or isn't, worth.

Jagged,

Exactly a lot of my points.

If someone was going to leave, this change did nothing to change that.

And if someone was going to stay, the same thing.

I feel this will do nothing to increase the people that play CB as was suggested by others. It is just my feeling however.

I see your point on the want it now attitude. A lot of people have that.

I personally want to see CB do very well. With less guaranteed cash coming in, it is harder to plan to upgrade weapons, buy BA, and buy minions.

There have been a quite a few people who have stated this change delays their future plans for a while, in some cases months.

While that can be interpreted at a want it now attitude, I feel it is an unnecessary delay in something that was being planned.

Things like hiring minions or even starting and paying for a NCB.

Now, if one is planning on having x amount of CB to buy BA for a NCB, one has to save up that much longer, as one cannot count of hitting the CB lottery.

CB is a strategy and not a roll playing game. As such, one needs a steady knowledge of income to be able to plan. As CB is a game of months/years instead of days/weeks.

I can give you a personal example. I make a salary with my job. A nice one, but a fixed salary. I CAN get a bonus at the end of the year depending on how my company does.

Do I plan my expenses based upon my salary and potential bonus? No. I plan based upon my expenses and if I get a year end bonus, I use it for extras.

CB is a game where one has to plan to be successful. This 20% reduction in fight rewards really messes up that planning. Even if thing do even out in the end.

But, I really do appreciate a civil discussion on this point!!

Ok my problem with this change, is that I am losing CB2 now for what? I would rather save up my cb2 and buy what I want and have a guaranteed chance at bidding/getting the item that I need rather than hoping that I get SOMETHING that I can use.

Going further down the line, what happens after 1 year/after 2 years? How much cb2 did I lose if I keep my unlucky streak going and don't get a single drop? How am I going to get rewarded for that?? I'm not, I'm just going to be the biggest loser and get a sorry about our luck comment.

Personally, I don't think it is truly random, it is just who ever is fighting when it is time to release an item into the auctions. The way I spend my BA, I can bet you that It will take me a while to get 1 item. I log in, spend all of my ba in under 3 minutes, thus decreasing my chance at catching an item being released in auctions over that very small of a period of time.

Now I bet if I wanted to really prove my point, I could sit here, and beat on one poor guy all night long with my BA, thus increasing my chance to catch that release time in auctions and end up with 1-2 items. Is that how you want the game to play?

Anyone want to volunteer to do that for one night and see the results?

I usually burn all my BA when I wake up and then in chunks of 16-24 (8 refresh rate) throughout the day (9 am - 9 pm PST roughly) and I have yet to get a drop...

Also I cannot help comparing the item drop to store camping, I know they are vastly different, but from my stand point they seem fairly similar...

Before that last statement gets jumped on I realize with thing like Mr. Chairman and no BA cost for a chance at a rare that things are less one-sided than before...

My point is from my end I see about the same amount of chance in getting an item. So I will do what I always have done, burn my BA, save my money and buy what I need from there...

By "no BA cost" I meant it does not cost additional BA...

using my NuB..i have used 100% of my BA 7/20 since the changemonth, including my free purchased BA. So far...nothing..anyone else in my boat?

Including the buy-in amount, I've missed only about 80 total BA since this started. No drops.

Sheez yes everyone ignore/overlook the points i brought up... Again... 0 items here :) i think maybe this is jon's way of cutting down the liquid cash around... Sure you take longer to save up for stuff... But this doesnt make the change bad... I think its kinda retarded that some people say "look i havent gotten an item in this time i want my money back" seriously... Just stop it

I want my money back...

When is enough enough lost?

You are bold enough to harp on people that want their money back.

So if he wants a cash sink, then just keep the rewards low and do away with the item drops. Then we are all back on fair grounds.

You would be happier with simply lowering rewards by 20% and not including item drops? REALLY?

Yes, it puts everyone in the same boat.

I don't like seeing people get the items while others don't.

And I don't care if I had 5 items dropped already, I would still feel the same way. Some will "win" and some will "lose", just depends on how lucky you are at fighting at the right time.

I wish people would get their heads around one thing. Nobody is actually losing money now. They're just not getting that 20% that they got previously. This does not equate to losing.

They're called rewards. They're a gift for winning a fight, not a salary.

And as for financial planning, surely that's as fluid as strategy planning in CB? A change comes you roll with it where strategy is concerned? That surely is a given. Why is it any different where cash is concerned?

Still havent received a drop

"I wish people would get their heads around one thing. Nobody is actually losing money now. They're just not getting that 20% that they got previously. This does not equate to losing.

They're called rewards. They're a gift for winning a fight, not a salary.

And as for financial planning, surely that's as fluid as strategy planning in CB? A change comes you roll with it where strategy is concerned? That surely is a given. Why is it any different where cash is concerned?"

I agree with this completely. Is this situation different because Jon hasn't messed with how much money we were rewarded before? To look at it slightly differently, where have we ever been guaranteed $500/$1000/$1500/whatever per fight? He's cut the rate of rewards, for whatever reason. He may up it a little, may take it back to the old level, heck he could even drop it more. I don't recall ever seeing that we were guaranteed X amount of money per fight. Like every other change, we've got to roll with the punches and figure our way now that this has been changed.

"I wish people would get their heads around one thing. Nobody is actually losing money now. They're just not getting that 20% that they got previously. This does not equate to losing."

I am fine with the rewards drop, it is a flat fee across the board for EVERYONE, it is the Item droppings that I am against because it is not evenly balanced and nor will it ever be.

Some are now up to their 4th-5th items and others are still waiting for one. That is where the winning and losing is coming from that I am referring to. Those that got something were able to get ahead cbd wise, while those that got nothing, are falling behind cbd wise.

Do you get it now Johnny and Jagged?

I get what you're saying Mikel, only even if one person has 5 rare drops and somebody else has none, it still doesn't automatically mean they are behind.

How many drops have you had? But how many BA have you spent during that time? Meanwhile somebody else may play for a day and get lucky and get two during that day. If those two drops are an elven stiletto and a lesser tattoo then they're way behind you no matter what aren't they?

If everybody was burning the same amounts of ba and earning the same rewards per fight then we could talk about fair or unfair. But if you're getting nearer to a $1000 per fight and somebody else is only getting $300 per fight then things become remarkably different.

If we really want to see how fair, unfair and unbalanced things are then maybe we should start a thread listing items dropped and cash rewards and ba burned. I think you'll find it levels out.

We have some people who have gotten over 4M in drop while others as we know have gotten nothing.

That is quite unequal.

What has become unequal is the numbers of those who want to get rid of this change in comparison to those that want to keep it, albeit tweaked in some way.

A third of the votes in the poll vote to kill the change. That means that two thirds want to keep it.

I'd say that makes it a popular change.

O JW,

Please do not skew the results.

As the change is now, 2/3 of the people do not like it.

How is that for a statement?

Over 50% think the guaranteed cash loss is too much.

36.6% want it back to normal and over 20% more want more cash and less drops.

I think it is safe to say that over 50% do not like this new method of random drops considering the guaranteed cash loss.

I also, have stated the cash loss is way too high and might be more satisfied with a 10% or even less cash loss.

But if you look at my thread, where 2 options were given, keep it or lose it, more than 65% wanted to lose this change.

Does that mean I like the current change? No, but I am willing to compromise.

It is very easy to twist statistics to whatever statement you want. I should know as that was my undergraduate major in college.

I'm not skewing the results: only a third of the votes want to kill it. Which means only a third of the vote preferred it the way it was before the change.

The rest may not like it exactly as it is now, but they still picked a choice that was not what it was before. I'd say people like the drops, even if they think there should be more or less of them.

Twisting Statistics to Whatever Statement You Want was your major in college? ACORN will hire you.

The key essence of the debate is the loss of guaranteed income compensated by the randomness of the drops. It is not liking or disliking the drop. As this is supposed to be a zero sum event, the money for the drop has to come from somewhere.

Give that as the key debate point, one has to assume more than 50% of people do not like the current loss of guaranteed income.

Which is the point that Sut, I and others are making. The 20% guaranteed loss of income is far too much for the fixed costs of CB.

One cannot and should not make a blanket statement that over 60% of people like getting drops. As that is not the key point in the debate.

Please note Sut and myself as well as others are not asking for the return of the guaranteed income AND drop. We realize it is a zero sum event until told by Jon otherwise.

We just know that in CB, guaranteed income is far more important to the health of the game than this random drop feature.

So those that picked the "more cash, less drops" feel the same way I do. They may like an occasional drop here and there, but need/want the guaranteed income far more.

Perhaps the better question to have asked would be:

"Do you want more guaranteed income or more drops?"

10% less guaranteed income may fly, given right now I barely am treading water buying BA every day. If I miss a set of BA due to RL factors, I will lose money buying BA. That alone is a bad thing for CB. As people will have RL days conflicting with the game.

Demi,

Statistics came so easy to me that I was able to get high honors in it while still being able to get my pre-med requirements.

I am very math orientated, far less language skills.

Hence my frequent unintelligible sentences. :)

Thank G-d for Firefox's spell check feature!!

got An Executioner's Sword [82x7] (+3)

I would propose a different type of poll :)

POLL 1 - If the drop system will not be altered at all :
a) keep it
b) kill it

POLL 2 - If the drop system remains, how do you want it altered ?
a) more drops, less cash
b) more cash, less drops

____

Peronally, I'm with 1b, 2b

it will be impossible to design a poll that will show all of the needed options.

my vote would be for the keep it if it affects retention after six months or so, but keep a very close eye on liquid asset to non-liquid ratio and adjust money rewards aggressively.

polls are actually pretty useless in cb land though unless jon creates them. those are really the only polls that matter as we are only a democracy by the grace of jon!

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002nsT
My try :)

Dude,

From the other thread:

Not to belabor the point, but we have 50% give or take people who like and dislike this system.

Therefore it appears to be equal parts love/hate, equal parts staying due to it and leave due to it.

It adds nothing to the game to make people want to stay. But people are losing guaranteed income and in a strategy game, that is an essential part of the playing experience.

I will make a bet with you, 10M CB, that our numbers will not be increased by more than 10% (given a statistical variation) due to this new drop system. I would be more if you want so strongly I feel about it.

And if we have more players in 6 months, it will be due to other factors, such as fixing the tutorial, adding new items/spells/skill or by simply fixing obviously broken/unbalanced items. Not due to this random forced lottery.

It is funny in that I get more excitement when an item I loan out returns and shows up in my inventory. That initial "wow!!! I got a drop", replaced by a "crud, it was again nothing".

I think perhaps just maybe I won the lottery, then just find out it was an item returning from a loan or rentals.

Such is my day.

Did everyone take the same hit to their rewards? or does it vary? So many saying "Give me back my reward money" not seeming to realize that they're not the only ones who took the cut... In a couple months, it will have made very little to no difference in peoples' relative wealth. Sure, if the drop chance is "too" low, they won't have as much of it... But then again, is it really so bad to have to wait 3 days instead of 2 per rare item you wish to purchase? After all, CB has never been a game of days/weeks (I think evidence of this is presented by the fact that you're still considered a "new user" for 6 months)~_^

Hatch,

Everyone took a 20% hit to fight rewards.

And given the FIXED costs associated with CB things are changed.

Things like buying minions, buying BA and upgrading weapons/items.

For tanks that have to upgrade weapons to keep up with mage damage, this is a large 20% hit.

"Therefore it appears to be equal parts love/hate, equal parts staying due to it and leave due to it."

i don't see this as being about the vets, and i also know of no one who has left because of it. new players coming in though will not know any difference and for them all that matters is getting a cool rare for free. it will seem free to them due to the fact that they know of no other rewards structure.

will that be enough to keep them around longer? that is the hundred dollar question. i think it will take time to tell and i am willing to give it that time. that has been my only point all along.

Not sure that I agree totally with you on that hatch...
The problem being that there is already an existing system of wealth here. People looking to borrow money will have to take longer to pay it off, causing a higher interest rate (ok, most interest here is flat but it'll still take longer). Buying ba is harder (for those that do).
Yes, this change does affect everyone equally, NOW... unless you're getting drops, that throws the monkey into the wrench as well.

it'll seem awkward for the first few months, then over the next few months everything will slowly balance itself out. I still say you won't see much of a change to relative wealth much after alittle while :)

Dude,

And yet again the vets, the people who have supported this game for 4+ years are being left behind.

Perhaps make this an opt in or out system for the older players and force the new players into it. See if that helps with their retention. But for those of us on a fixed income (USD aside please), it is a large hit.

As for being awkward for the first few months, it is awkward now.

We have 1.2M battles worth of data. People fighting 15k or more battles. How much more is needed?

Are we going to treat this like evasion? Let it be broken for 1 year or more before it gets its proper fix. I remember then a nice percentage of people loved it, while a lot hated it. Did that mean something obviously broken should stay in CB?

The exbow now has been obviously broken for 2+ years. Do we keep waiting and gathering more data before it is fixed? Right now someone with 5k strength and a x220 exbow drains 750k strength. Is that right? 6 hits and someones tank is gone from a very low level exbow and enchanter using it.

we can think those things are broken but if jon does not agree then they are for all intents and purposes fine.

with items, skills and abilities, the user is probably more informed than jon in regards to the state of the game. in regards to the economy though, i am sure jon has a handle on it and keeps an eye on many more numbers than we can see. he will also, rightly so, be concerned about player retention. especially when we have new players starting daily but few sticking around.

i am glad he is trying some new things and am willing to wait it out. if for six months i do not get to upgrade my items as much as i had planned, then so be it. if it turns out that this helps player retention, then great! if not, perhaps we can try something else.

once again though, it is only broken to us because of our past experiences. cb is somewhat about change and being able to roll with it. change isn't always good, but it is really just too darned soon to tell on this one.

Perhaps if you were a tank, you would care a bit more.

This does not effect me, but those non-USD tanks just suffered a 20% loss in upgrading their weapons unless they hit the lottery with a nice rare.

But, it is Jon's democracy and we have to wait to see if it helps or hurts CB.

I just do not want it to hurt CB so much that after 6 months or so, we have not gained but lose a few more new people due to their decreasing rewards. Since those people are lost forever.

I am a tank, and yes, it does hurt my ability to upgrade my items. I don't spend USD, and yes, I have been playing less, so it hurts my ability to upgrade my weapons even more. Granted, I am a crappy tank, but still :)

I do see the point about this making things harder on tanks to upgrade their weapons to keep up with the mages, but I again ask how is this change any different than if mages had gotten another buff on their damage output or something? That has has happened in the past. The community gripes about it for a while, but then we learn to adapt to how it is. Why is this so different because it is money? Never have we been guaranteed a certain amount of money. Yes, people make projections based off their experience. It may take longer now, but who among us regular, long term players here doesn't have time on his/her hands to continue playing this game for that little extra time it takes to get that upgrade or buy that minion?

I am sure if mages got a 20% jump to damage, there would be just as much discussion in the forums, perhaps more.

Up to now, I feel the game is relatively balanced. With a few exceptions/items that are beyond laughable.

But overall, things are very good.

Now, drop income 20% and things become skewed yet again. Considering the fixed costs associated in the game.

We have been guaranteed a certain amount of money, it comes from fighting.

You fight more, you get more money. Money in relation to hiring minions, buying BA etc... Before this change, I could buy my BA and still make a bit of a profit. Now, I barely have enough to cover my BA costs.

People chat about the "wow" factor in getting a rare. I think winning an auction gives just as much of a "wow" factor. And with 1/2 the rares in auctions, there is less of that wow factor for me.

Right now we have at least 1/5th of the players having not gotten an item after 2 weeks of play. How dull. In time it may or may not even out, but we will be forced to wait 2+ more months unless it gets fixed now.

So all we have gotten this changemonth is this change, while other things, such as fixing broken items, fixing the tutorial are still broken.

But when have we ever been guaranteed a certain amount of money? Yes, you get money from fighting, and the more you fight, the more you earn. But, and I'm asking in all seriousness here, where has Jon ever guaranteed that you will make say for arguments sake, $1000 a fight? To me, some are treating this like it is CB Constitutional right that you will make $1000 per fight, no matter what, and now we have "lost" that right and therefore we are losing money. We are still making money, just less of it. Our potential for earnings has gone down, but that potential was never guaranteed, was it?

I guess I am still not clear on why this change is so much more harsh on us than things we've faced in the past.

The money we have gotten in the past has been relatively proportional to the fixed costs associated with CB.

In the past they included missiles, which when removed, gave a -5% money reward.

No, your right, we were never guaranteed money. But the money received allowed one to buy BA and still turn a profit, to upgrade items a certain NW per week/month, and plan on buying minions.

With 20% less cash, buying BA is very difficult while upgrading weapons, if not impossible. Unless one hits the lottery and we can see there are a lot of people after 2 weeks that have gotten nada.

No, it is not a constitutional right, but it is what is needed to adequately do the things needed in relation to the fixed costs.

Let us say the US government said the minimum wage was lowered 20%, but everyone now is in a government sponsered lottery with an expected zero sum effect. Some will win big, others will lose. If that fair? That is what we have now in CB.

Random rare drops are much more random than money reward.

I agree, it is making things harder on here, but maybe that is the point? I won't claim to know what Jon is doing, or why he's doing it, but I don't think he just does things because he can, there is usually a rationale behind it all, even if it does take a tweak or two to bring it to what he originally intended.

We do live in a Jon-tatorship. If he wants to do something, he certainly can. Some of us will like it, some of us won't. Its nice to have some civilized discourse about it, one way or the other!

I have no idea behind the rationale.

Most think it is to make the game more interesting and help promote keeping players.

I doubt this will happen but I have been proven wrong in the past. But all signs suggest this is not good for CB.

IE, Less money leads to increased CB/USD ratios, making multis more attractive. Making playing to sellout more attractive. More NUB sellouts. Less money also leads to deflation, leading to lower rare prices so when you get that rare, it sells for less.

I doubt someone will play CB and stay just for that rare drop. Once every 2 weeks or longer. But having that income, allowing you to buy rares you actually want and need is far better. Not having to wait for that rare drop to upgrade your weapon is much better.

Perhaps Jon ran out of ideas for CB. Perhaps NS and Jon do not want to fix the exbow or other borked items. Perhaps the tutorial is fine as it is. I have no idea.

I am just giving my opinion on this change, since I want CB to thrive and not die out.

"die out"

Ok I think we are at the point where some aspects of the conversation are getting carried away. This is still a new change and for whatever reasons it is still here. Honestly, it's not the "drop" issue that is causing all this chaos, it is the reward decrease. A LOTTT of people were asking that camping the stores come back, and well... it is back! And, in my opinion a MUCH better set up than the alternative. But instead of the camping... it is generated randomly to a BA winner. Let Jon and NS play / tweak around with it for a little while, and keep posting thoughts on why it is good/bad, but for heaven's sakes don't get overdramatic about it.

I personally tossed out the idea months ago about instead of the store camping, random "treasure chests" with a cash reward be given out. Switch the rewards back and just give out moola.

The only thing I can think about the reward decrease is that they are looking at the game and its longevity. Trying to balance things with the NUB and possibly thwart the "multis" attraction towards an ever increasing cash cow. <-----thumbs up to that!

If anything comes of this, I would like to see BA cost adjusted to be lower. Again, *stands on soap box* it's harder for those that are not able to log in many times a day to break even with the cost of BA with the lesser rewards. (Unless this is the point... can't log in multiple times to break even, don't buy BA?)

Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Ice Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

Whoo, 150k worth of items. That blue bar at the top made all the waiting worth it!!!!

congrats!

I bet Ranger is jealous of my first drop!

Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Gloves of Mercy [0] (+5). Use it well!

I WANT A DROP!!!! Just not gloves of mercy lol...

^Katana for you :)

I got a BoM recently and sold it for 1.6 million ;)

Still no drop for me, and I have probably gone through a couple thousand BA since the change.

Same here, I need a rare drop since basically all my gear is being loaned to me. I am broke.

Lol, if you're broke try running a strat that isn't a big money hole. You've been here long enough to know tank teams cost money surely?

A couple of rare drops aren't going to fix your problem.

"A couple of rare drops aren't going to fix your problem."

A few million in drops will certainly not help and likely may do a lot towards fixing that problem.

However, he is unlucky and has to pray he wins our fine CB lottery.

Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Helm of Ecthelion [6] (+7). Use it well!

Woo!

Sweet.

Enjoy it!!!

Ranger is right I could use a few million in drops, however this strat wasn't originally my idea but a friends. It has worked better than any strat I've used to date. But the problem is because I am putting all my money into the armor and such. I have no money.

Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Rune of Solitude lvl 20. Use it well!

woo... :S

From: system Sent: 8:40 AM EDT Delivered: 12:24 PM EDT
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Alatar's Gloves [0]. Use it well!

#3 yay!

Can I get an admin to ban WoC? He keeps stealing my item drops.

And congrats. :)

still no drop for me...

I got a katana last night, not exactly awe inspiring :P

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3497/57786365.jpg
LOL
3rd item too
I still want my 20% money back.

:O
I seem to have caught a deleted post right before it got deleted.
Btw, could anyone with a basic knowledge of html tell me how to make the image show instead of the link?

Finally! i got a jackpot!
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Spellboosters [4] (+4). Use it well.
Well not jackpot but an improvement at the very least.

Wait... I just checked my inventory... It's not there. System bug perhaps? Since we both got that message.

Check your inventory quick Nayab!

=)

nvm i suck, was just chatmail...

I am confuslorated!

^^ Nice one. What would happen to the economy if everyone got a pair of spellboosters?

Not sure if there are that many SBs in the game.

Jiraiya, it's not funny at all.

I betya someone thought they hit the "WOW" after all these days.

Just to be disappointed.

And keep in mind, the CMs come from the system, not any player.

yeah thats how i realized it was a prank, it came from Mandos rather than the system itself.

Hehehehe.

Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Spellboosters [4] (+4). Use it well!

Wow i need these too, how awesome.

That makes #4 (and 2 in one day)

Drops to date:
Halidon Familiar
Gloves of Mercy +7
Pair of Altar's Gloves
Pair of Spellboosters +4

Est Value: 4-5mil

This past day, totally made up for my monetary reduction. Hooray!

Wow I hate you Mandos, now I feel like an idiot and I still need some SB's

I've got to admit, it is a pretty funny prank. Even though I did a double take to make sure it was a prank...

From: system (9:07 PM EDT)
Tulkas is pleased with your prank and grants you a An Executioner's Sword [82x11] (+8). Use it well!

Number of fights I started tracking.
... Challenged 36,154

Number of fights after first drop.
... Challenged 42,773

Meaning I fought 6,619 battles before this drop.
Though I didn't start 'tracking' the DAY this change happened, so it could be as many as 9,000 or so battles.

From another thread, I think the average time for a drop is 20 days.

Still haven't gotten anything...

Just got my first drop, base ToA :)

Poor Mandos.

I get CMs in Chat or my Chatmail only. They don't appear on my homepage. :P

For real this time, I got a mageseeker. Not as good as spellboosters, but it's a start.

From: system (6:34 AM EDT)
Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Rune of Balrog Flame lvl 20. Use it well!


Well I finally got a drop not something so great but something nonetheless :)

Just got a Katana.

Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Steel Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

my first time..... maybe it'll be better next time

I'm honestly worried that when I finally get a prize, it'll be a worthless lesser tat. I'm hoping Jon or NS will be willing to remove these from the prize pool eventually.

Or just deleted from the game entirely.

[btw. Still no drop.]

Lesser tattoos are useful for tourneys but that is about it.

I would rather these 'rares' get deleted from the normal prize pool and in all tourneys that allow tattoos characters get a base level 20 one.

Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Cornuthaum [0] (+2). Use it well!

Whoot!

I LOVE THIS SYSTEM!!!!

not.

Still, it was nice getting that blue bar with a real rare.

Hopefully supportership will help, since I can win all my battles now.

still 0 for 1000's :(

I'm making this chart mostly to play with HTML, but also to follow my number of fights until I finally get a drop. If my first-ever drop turns out to be a lesser tattoo, I'm going to be pissed...

Fights Without a Drop
8/20 BA Rate	18 Days x (576 Free BA X 192 Buy-In BA)	= 13824 Fights
7/20 BA Rate	4 Days x (504 Free BA X 168 Buy-In BA)	= 2688 Fights
		= 16512 Fights
	16512 fights - roughly 100 missed BA	= 16412 Total Fights

well I finally got a drop.

Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Steel Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

It could have been better though... well, atleast it's not some useless stuff like lesser tattoos or an elven stiletto

My 'gain' so far...

From: system Sent: 3:15 AM EDT Delivered: 3:17 AM EDT
Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Elven Stiletto [55x4] (+2). Use it well!

From: system Sent: June 25 9:47 AM EDT Delivered: June 25 11:10 AM EDT
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Cloak of the Istari [6] (+5). Use it well!

From: system Sent: June 22 8:01 PM EDT Delivered: June 22 8:08 PM EDT
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Steel Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

Why oh why can I not get a single drop.....

So i haven't gotten any Drops since the first bunch of AoJ's. Then i wake up and burn my ba this morning, when i was done i was happy to receive this


From: system (7:03 AM EDT)
Varda is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Pair of Helm's Gauntlets [4] (+7). Use it well!
From: system (7:02 AM EDT)
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Shadow Cloak [11] (+9). Use it well!

im seeing people with NCB and Nubs are excluded from all this for some reason

0 lol

i dont know that as fact and it was a intended as a question...its 6 am and i been up since 9 am yesterday forgive im gettin etchy

Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Elven Stiletto [55x1] (+0). Use it well!

So, that's like 25k worth of drops now. Awesome.

People with N*Bs still get items just like everybody else. It's just that NCBs are generally less likely to get them as buying all their BA is harder.

From: system Sent: 2:45 AM EDT Delivered: 2:51 AM EDT june 27 2009
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Steel Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

Drops: 3,500,000

Still nothing, don't think I'll ever get anything..

No drops since the last time I posted, which was I have no clue when. And since I am a NUB, millions of CBD's down the drain because of this update..Sigh..

Has any NUB gotten a drop?

I have

okey well we making progress I guess..I don't ever get full BA anyway 'cus I only play from (GASP) work!! and I only work 2 weeks a month and then only 12 hrs a day so...I need internet at home :*( and maybe I get someting too eventually!!

First drop:
Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Tattoo of Endurance lvl 20. Use it well!

this has to be the thread with the most replies.

I really need a drop desperately!!!!

I've gotten 3 Ranger.

I still have gotten none....

Nothing.

Whoo! The streak is finally over!

After almost exactly 18,000 fights, I managed to pull down a Pair of Spellboosters [4].

Sadly, even if I pull down 3 mil from the Spellboosters, I'm still in the negative since the change. But man, I'm SO glad I finally got something, and I'm very happy it wasn't a worthless lesser tattoo.

I now have 3 total...two days ago I got two in about 1 hour.

So all three items are...
An MCM
A Lesser Steel Familiar
A Katana

Total value = less then 350k.

80%-90* of Total BA (get more included) spent.

this is really comical stuff lol :) haha some spend so much time and money here and they get a lesser tattoo or a katana for a drop...is that a Bird Dropping?

Woot! Well worth the weeks of 20% less CBD!!!!!!!

From: system Sent: 2:53 PM EDT Delivered: 2:54 PM EDT
Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Elven Stiletto [55x7] (+3). Use it well!

Now I can Rule The Top with my Elven Stiletto!

14,286 battles and nothin :) I'm the big loser

Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Elven Stiletto [55x1] (+0). Use it well!


NICE!!

Lol i got a bone :)

Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a An Executioner's Sword [82x4] (+0). Use it well!

...

Still zilch

Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Katana [74x2] (+5). Use it well!

Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Rune of Solitude lvl 20. Use it well!

Woo-hoo.
My first drop.

Still. No. Drop.

I like it better not having any drops. It's like a badge of honor. Except the badge is made out of lost money, and the honor comes from disappointment.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 12:44 AM EDT
"I like it better not having any drops. It's like a badge of honor. Except the badge is made out of lost money, and the honor comes from disappointment."

Vouch

Slayer, you just made me laugh. Loud.

What sut said, x2.

My 2nd drop... is crap

Ulmo is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Ice Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!

I still haven't seen anything yet.

This is getting ridiculous.

What? You can get drops? :D I have yet to see one of these elusive items.

Guys/gals/others.

No use complaining now, since changemonth is over and it will be at least 2 more months of the current system.

Still zero here. Just wanted to bump this absurdly long thread. =)

I haven't gotten anything either. /shrug. No complaints. Just wanted to be annoying <3

Long live the thread of oppression...

Still nothing BTW...

QBRanger 2:24 PM EDT
"Guys/gals/others.

No use complaining now,"


Never thought I'd see that post.

From: system (12:13 PM EDT)
Mandos is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Lesser Electric Familiar lvl 20. Use it well!


>.> Thats two for me.

Tulkas is pleased with your victory and grants you a A Cornuthaum [0] (+9). Use it well!. This makes item number 5 for me =)

5!?! o.O

Okay that kind of chaps my hide =P

What are all the items you have gotten ceslis?

But 5, wow, your a very smart fighter!!! Grats!!!