NCB? No thanks. (in General)
July 28 2009 12:04 AM EDT
So I played with the idea of starting a NCB. After all, its a strategy game, and there is a 2-minion strategy I've always wanted to try. So I figured, gather some money, get my gear together, and go run the NCB.
Then I calculated BA cost for the 6 month period...
Roughly 160 million cbd to buy BA everyday to be competitive at the top.
Yes, dudemus ran a great NCB spending solely money he earned from the NCB itself. But we ran ours close in time and I ended up 800k mpr higher. A considerable difference in my opinion.
I enjoy the game because I love seeing the different strategies being employed to beat each other. Nobody has a perfect, unbeatable strategy (although some are close). However, I did not think this game was a start-off-good-or-fail-forever game. I'm glad I started off strong, because with this NCB system, I'm NEVER starting a new character.
July 28 2009 12:08 AM EDT
"Yes, dudemus ran a great NCB spending solely money he earned from the NCB itself."
I don't think its possible without saving a lot of money any longer because of the reward reduction. 20% may not seem like that much, but my BA costs $4,080 apiece. I just don't make enough from fight rewards to see it being viable.
Of course, some may be lucky enough to have drops they can sell for BA, but I haven't been :P
Well from what I've seen and calculated buying BA isn't a necessity it just assists in the growth. Ranger's character is a good example I feel, because he is only at about 3.8 mil MPR fighting people much higher than him. I feel the BA costs should be lowered a bit since the fight rewards are 20% less as they are quite ridiculous at this point, but the NCB is a pretty good system as is.
July 28 2009 12:21 AM EDT
Rawr, I agree with you completely. I fear what will happen when my NUB ends. I think it's going to be a shocking change for me, and I can already see that characters are disposable. It's either do great on your first attempt with a NUB or too bad.
It would be different if you could "start fresh" with the same chance as new players, but the way it stands, CB rewards players who multi. Does anyone have any record of the percentage of players who quit after their NUBs end?
July 28 2009 12:21 AM EDT
Well, the 5 fights I just did at 100% bonus that were an outright win got me an average of $675 each (ranging from 548 to 859). I know 5 isn't a great sample size or anything, but that's still 6-7 fights required to get enough money for 1 bought...
PoisoN has spent at least 200m on BA for NWO, why should you pay less?
July 28 2009 12:52 AM EDT
Good to see that the old NCB grind is still alive and well.
July 28 2009 12:58 AM EDT
" PoisoN has spent at least 200m on BA for NWO, why should you pay less? "
Did he save all of that up at once and Spend it in 6 months?
July 28 2009 1:02 AM EDT
Of course not, but if you want to catch him you have to. :)
July 28 2009 1:12 AM EDT
"Well from what I've seen and calculated buying BA isn't a necessity it just assists in the growth. Ranger's character is a good example I feel, because he is only at about 3.8 mil MPR fighting people much higher than him."
True, but he also has 3 mil worth of PR from items to help in his success as a "lower mpr" character.
July 28 2009 1:22 AM EDT
"PoisoN has spent at least 200m on BA for NWO, why should you pay less?"
He also got +400%ish more money for the same price. I'm not arguing for either way, but just saying..
So you're claiming that you deserve to be given an easier path because... why? Because you've spent five years playing a game and stayed on top for a massive portion of the time...? Oh wait no, that was PoisoN. Pay the toll to play at the top, He did.
It's not like running an NCB without BA is a terrible thing, if you work hard you can build a large amount of NW with just a few of them.
Even before I began spending money on and paying for my hobby I had equipment good enough I was in the top 5 (or darn close) here until Nymandus beat the snot out of me. Don't ask for a hand, fight your way there. If you fight all your BA in a no buy NCB and get no where, I can promise you I'll be right along side you demanding Jon make the cheap NCB a viable method of having opponents in the top 10.
July 28 2009 4:07 AM EDT
"If you fight all your BA in a no buy NCB and get no where, I can promise you I'll be right along side you demanding Jon make the cheap NCB a viable method of having opponents in the top 10."
If I'm reading this correctly you're saying if someone runs an NCB without ever spending money and gets no where you'll agree that the NCB needs revision? Well as I stated, dudemus ran a NCB WITH buying BA. Assuming he spent BA only on xp times (and I know he spent more than just that) he only reached low 3m mpr.
July 28 2009 4:09 AM EDT
I'm pretty Zangy was run without any bought BA and ended up over 3.5m MPR.
July 28 2009 4:10 AM EDT
No prior investment to reach 3.2M MPR and a large tat. Sounds like going somewhere to me.
"PoisoN has spent at least 200m on BA for NWO, why should you pay less?"
Becuase it's still as wrong then as it is now Nov.
It was also wrongly claibrated when Poison ran it.
So are we saying we'll never fix problems with the game, becuase of the effort one player put in a while ago? If so, I'm out, for good. Seriously.
It's like Rangers VB.
The NCB BA cost is rubbish. It has been from day one. I've railed agianst it, from day one. That we've *had* to choke it down and use it is a damn shame, but we shouldn't ever hold off of fixing it becuase we've been foced to use it in the past.
July 28 2009 4:44 AM EDT
I'll be holding you to that promise Novice.
If you fight all your BA in a no buy NCB and get no where, I can promise you I'll be right along side you demanding Jon make the cheap NCB a viable method of having opponents in the top 10.
I've missed maybe 200-ish BA in the entire run.
You don't need to get in the top to enjoy the game. Why does everyone think they are entitled to a top ten spot for easy?
July 28 2009 4:57 AM EDT
I don't care about the top ten, or even the top 100, I'd just like to be able to buy BA on a NCB without having to have stockpiled 200mil before running the damn thing. And yes, I mean being able to spend the money I've earned during the course of the NCB on BA and be able to upgrade gear.
It appears that the 100th spot is currently Warlord Daz with 2.1 mil MPR. Don't need you need to buy BA for that.
July 28 2009 5:12 AM EDT
I started NCB recently, got 103mil from selling my old char Miami Vice and his equipment. After buying the items I needed, including a big tattoo, I had 83mil left. I am fully aware that won't be enough to help me buy BA during the entire run. And with my job and personal life I know that I won't be able to spend all natural BA either. My only goal is to breach 3mil MPR, I want this NCB to end up bigger than Miami Vice.
So no top 10 for me. Maybe not even 6/20. But that's alright. I'm having a blast storming the ranks again. It's been a while for me, but this NCB was just what I needed. I'm having fun again. To me, that is the real value of the NCB. Who cares I'm going to blow 80mil on BA. That 80mil was generated with spending BA in the first place. I'm enjoying the game again, no matter how expensive BA is.
Three4th's, fun is subjective.
As Inde posted, you can have fun just playing. You can do it forging, or making new, none NCB character to have a 'nilla run through the lower ranks. If that's what floats your boat.
These are all player defined goals, of individual worth.
CB as a game can't really be won, but it's goal is to be the biggest and best.
The Bonuses are tools to those end, and the NCB is so prohibitvely expensive that it fails in its original design.
It cannot let you have a run to the top spot, to 95% of the Tops MPR with equivalent effort, due just to it's 'restart tax'.
That is where it falls down, and creates yet more divide in game with the NUB.
Easy it shouldn't be. Free, definitly not. But realisitically attainable it should be. And the current (and continually scalling) cost is bad.
July 28 2009 5:39 AM EDT
I've run plenty of NCBs, and enjoyed them mostly - apart from the time when the strat was pulled out from under me completely. I also ran them on rewards only and on normal BA only, although I attempted to hit every wacky XP I could too. Never got higher than about 2.4 million MPR. That was while the top MPR was nearly 5 mill MPR. And, I almost never miss BA now that it's easy not to.
Now, that's not bad going, especially as I also never used the headstart option of saving BA and starting with 1600. But if my only option then is to utilise a lot of cash to buy all BA to make up the difference then that is never going to happen on an NCB.
It's cheaper to buy a char if what you want is a high level character.
But if what you want is fun, then go for it.
July 28 2009 5:40 AM EDT
"PoisoN has spent at least 200m on BA for NWO, why should you pay less?"
Well... let's see... why don't NUBs have to pay that at all ?
And what makes a NCB so much more special that he HAS to pay it ?
"No prior investment to reach 3.2M MPR and a large tat. Sounds like going somewhere to me. "
Nonono Arty! We should all be in the top ten by next week! Jeez
July 28 2009 5:44 AM EDT
A NUB in theory doesn't have the knowledge to reach the top, whereas a NCB does.
In theory. Allegedly returning players with superior knowledge hiding under NUB cover and the WIKI have put paid to that to a degree. Perhaps NCB costs should be lowered somewhat to compensate.
July 28 2009 5:49 AM EDT
Personally, I'd say NCB BA cost should be identical to regular BA cost.
That, or scrap the entire N*B system and put in a rolling XP-only bonus already.
July 28 2009 5:51 AM EDT
"It appears that the 100th spot is currently Warlord Daz with 2.1 mil MPR. "
Or even 1,252,983
July 28 2009 5:52 AM EDT
July 28 2009 5:53 AM EDT
NCB costs should of been lowered to compensate for the 20% cash reward reduction but they weren't.
July 28 2009 6:58 AM EDT
A NUB in theory doesn't have the knowledge to reach the top, whereas a NCB does. correct johnny
and thats why I think some these older users are abandoning there long loved handles quitting and then coming back as NUBS running thru the ranks..since they cant afford to do it with an NCB.
I can spot a few NUBS already that I'll eat my shorts and yours too if the arent someones dupe. Using a different IP who would ever know?
In fact I could start a NUB tomorrow on another computer,different IP and I bet all you brains couldn't find me or figure it out..
But the NCB I started as I said before is worthless and all I got was " your strat sucks"...or "your an Idiot"...
regardless..bought very few BA,and starting to sell gear I bought to support it..The next level when I run out of odd things to sell is to kill minions off and sell their stuff to support the others until I dont have anything left..Then I'm done
We would know it was you, Shark. Believe me. We'd know.
July 28 2009 7:00 AM EDT
oh I would like to add I spent 300 USD getting all that gear since I had nothing to start an NCB with
July 28 2009 7:01 AM EDT
In all fairness I would have to say I agree with Silva. The BA cost "Should" have been lowered by some further percentage(20% is ideal) when the Item Drop System came into play.
Over the course of this NCB I have been contacted on multiple occasions asking my opinion on costs for BA and Starting Upgrades on a Highly Competitive Scale. When I have bounced back truthful answers from my personal experience people have told me their reactions from cussing a storm, to disbelief, to spitting food or drink at their computer screens.
Do not get me wrong anyone I do know that different strategies call for different applications. However, when just the cost of BA to run an NCB as a Viable Competitive Option makes it all but impossible well then Houston We Have a Problem. When the NCB becomes a CBD sink and you will definitely NOT have a TRUE chance at the Top 25 WITHOUT dumping MAJOR USD as well then this is no longer a Competitive Run.
It has now turned into a Dry Run to set up for another Dry Run so you can grow your Tat so you can be more competitive so you can make more money so you can do another Dry Run so you can prepare...... The circle will eventually become so long that the Dry Runs will never cease which will give many a defeatist attitude and in turn add more fuel to the throwaway character pile.
Am I saying this should be easy, not by any means but with the system the way it is now it is no wonder why we have many people going multi right off the bat. They see it in the first couple of weeks and say:
"Well you know I don't have the time for this crap. Aah buuuttt all those suckers actually going for the gold will need cash and are willing to dump USD for it. Hmmm if I do this right I can get a nice little chunk of change."
It doesn't matter if they get caught/banned if they get money that is all that matters because they have met their goal. It is one of the major reasons I believe but NOT their only reason for going Multi.
With that said look at it like this with all the talk of USD being thrown around what of those who have NO option of USD to backup their NCB Run? Yes there are a few shinning examples of people getting through the cracks. Ok I'll take that and run with it. 5 people make a NCB Run without cash and make a decent run, do they EVER get into the Top 25......N-to-the-O! Then this is not a viable option as even Highly Experienced Vets with a TON of Items cannot do it. How do you expect player retention when a New Player decides after their NUB ends to do a NCB and runs into this? One Phrase "Screw This Mess!"
July 28 2009 7:01 AM EDT
yeah fox I can't hide here and I know that :) bec I wouldnt keep my mouth shut long enough!!! lol
July 28 2009 7:12 AM EDT
The current goal for this NCB, and probably my next two or three, is to grow and then sell tattoos during each one. I'm growing my current Hal as high as I can, and then selling it. Then I'll pick up another minion type tattoo for my next NCB. Then another. Why am I doing all this? Because I'm trying to stock up CBD to run an Archer and be able to afford not only keeping his bow competitive, but being able to buy -some- BA on a weekly basis.
i hit 3.2m mpr with my ncb. i did not buy any ba for the first half of my run. i bought ba during xp time only during the last half of my run.
i think i was about 25 to 30 in mpr ranking the day i finished.
i am now trying one with buying ba only during wacky xp times if my battle rewards allow it. we will see how far i get. my bonus is 413% now as opposed to 346% before.
seeing the top characters now push 4.5mil mpr and up. And a bunch of characters are around 3mil mpr. Any NCB not coming to 3.7mil mpr is wasted energy.
i forgot to add that if you have played cb1, the ncb is great compared to the alternative back then.
if you never had a nub in cb2 (early adopters) then the ncb is awesome as well.
if you are a nub user, then the ncb is inadequate.
much of this could be avoided by making the nub not be the starting state of the game but rather just like the ncb, only your first character made with a bonus would be the nub.
let them see how slow no bonus is before allowing them to push that turbo button!
July 28 2009 8:47 AM EDT
The game is now almost 5 years old.
Extend the N*B to 1 year. That should lower the BA costs by 1/2.
July 28 2009 8:58 AM EDT
thats a new one for me, a NUB joins CB with the intent of starting an NCB...gotta get that money first though
i guess i wasn't clear. you would have to initiate it like you do the ncb. the first time would be the full nub bonus though. in effect the only difference would be that the user doesn't start with a nub but has to create a character and check the little dot that says start this character with the nub bonus.
July 28 2009 9:13 AM EDT
I understood your post Dude, it was very clear ;) What I don't understand is the opening post
July 28 2009 9:39 AM EDT
I am sorry but this line just eats at me each time I view it:
"PoisoN has spent at least 200m on BA for NWO, why should you pay less?"
That is a point, however, one has to consider the hundreds of millions of CB PoisoN has EARNED fighting for 4+ years. That is more than enough to compensate for the 200m + he has possibly spent on BA.
People attempting the NCB have not typically been in CB for all that time and have not made hundreds of millions of CB fighting for 4+ years.
And while PoisoN has played almost every day, buying BA each day, he has been making money each day burning native BA.
There are countless people who play for a few month, skip a few due to RL issues, come back and want to try a NCB. They have not made hundreds of millions of CB to fund a NCB attempt. PoisoN, over the course of CB has.
While being in the top 10 is not essential for CB, most people do have that as a goal. Something you cannot realistically do right now without USD. Unless you are a NUB with great help or a multi.
And Rawr has one of the best line I have yet seen in the N*B discussion:
Basically sums up CB right now. Which is horrible for the long term health of the game.
additionally, once you see your rank in the top mpr slots slipping from 14 or so to 30 something as n*b's pass ya by, you might just decide that running an ncb is then worth it.
that is what happened with me on my igot noname character.
July 28 2009 10:13 AM EDT
Fix the N*Bonus value to +300% (*4 rewards), make the length of the NUB one third of the time CB has been in existance so far.
At the end of the run, you'd get (1/3)*4=4/3 as a N*B, and the former non-N*B #1 if he'd keep going at the same rate would get 1+1/3=4/3, so it's perfectly fair.
July 28 2009 10:14 AM EDT
"i forgot to add that if you have played cb1, the ncb is great compared to the alternative back then. "
I have to disagree.
In CB1, the highest character wasn't nearly as high as what we have now, not by a long shot. The difference in BA regens was enough to make a difference then, while it just doesn't make an iota of a difference in cb2. Remaining active and spending all BA every day was enough.
Well, I think so. I could just be misremembering.
Even so, staying awake and spending all of your BA would keep you ahead of some guy who joined last week, which we don't have here.
July 28 2009 10:16 AM EDT
Hmm... I wonder...
...is the current N*B calibrated properly ?
Exactly how long has CB been running, and how high is the N*Bonus right now ?
July 28 2009 10:18 AM EDT
Created May 19, 2009
July 28 2009 10:20 AM EDT
So right now it's almost 400%... is that +400% (as in *5 rewards) or is it just *4 rewards ?
And how long has been CB running ?
July 28 2009 10:24 AM EDT
Ah, nevermind, found it...
user ID #1 - expostfacto Created January 01, 2005
So, that's more than 4 and a half years now.
So, let's see... 9 periods of 6 months since CB existed... bonus 400%... hmm... it doesn't seem all that fair at all to me.
To be quite honest - it's not like you COULD find targets double your score all the way up to the top, even if the old people were forced to at best fight people roughly the same size... so no matter how you put it, it's really not fair.
July 28 2009 10:28 AM EDT
I believe Meso got 415% a couple days ago.
July 28 2009 10:36 AM EDT
Let's calculate a FAIR value of the bonus, now shall we ?
First off, we assume a perfect run of one four-minion-from-the-start character since CB started existing - fighting somebody just below its size (so 0% CB all the time), buying all BA and so on and so forth. We want the N*B to also buy all his BA and only make it to 95% of top MPR under the same conditions (no minion purchase). We also assume both characters live in the #1 clan, so the clan bonuses would cancel eachother out.
Let's say we have to recover just 9 times 6 months (ignore the one extra month needed for now, assume we're in 1st of July 2009).
Now, let's say that HALF of the N*B run you COULD find 100% Challengebonus targets. However, the second half of the run, the CB will steadily drop from 100% to 0%, for an average of 50% in the second half, or an average of 75% during the entire run.
The old top character would have gotten the 9 times 6 months, but as the newcomer climbs for 6 months, he would have been able to accrue 10 times 6 months, all at 0% CB
The newcomer gets only one 6-month term, but at an average of 75% CB, so in other words an equivalent of 1.75 6-month period.
10/1.75 = 5.714etc
We also want him to only make it to 95%, so that becomes 5.428etc.
A FAIR N*Bonus valid for 1st of July 2009 ago would have been one that grans *5.428 rewards, or in other words a nearly +443% bonus.
I somehow doubt that's the actual bonus granted then...
"Remaining active and spending all BA every day was enough."
we do have differing memories then. i started playing in march of '03, so until december of '04 i had 21 months to catch up to the top. when i came over to cb2 on january first, i was about fifty percent of the top mpr in cb1 and i had fought nearly all of my ba the whole time.
an ncb starting today without buying any ba but not missing any either would definitely surpass that in the six months.
July 28 2009 10:40 AM EDT
...and this is a "fair" bonus ONLY IF WE ARE ASSUMING that the challenger COULD possibly start consistently beating the #1 score character as soon as he reaches 3 months of age (and can beat some of the ones directly below a bit earlier)
Obviously, that's not very fair either.
To be quite honest, the current N*Bonus should be somewhere around +533% (*6.33 rewards) right now to make it a fair chance of reaching 95% of top MPR, given a similar effort level.
July 28 2009 10:50 AM EDT
And now we know wht the N*B is such a "chore"... its value is badly calculated >:)
July 28 2009 11:21 AM EDT
Please remember the following:
NWO and all the early characters never had a positive challenge bonus as they were the top characters. True they did not have a negative one either.
All the new N*B characters are getting a 100% bonus for the first 2 months at least, and depending upon the strategy perhaps longer.
That should figure into what % bonus they get. Using time alone to calculate the new N*B is not accurate.
"While being in the top 10 is not essential for CB, most people do have that as a goal. Something you cannot realistically do right now without USD."
Let me assure you, exceptions will be made ~_^
July 28 2009 11:42 AM EDT
Quite a lot of people are running NCB at the moment. Marlfox, kefeck, dup, Mushu, VsCountStrum, dudemus, Hatchetman, myself. It's fun to see they're all running them with good spirit. Maybe NCB hasn't lost all its appeal yet :)
July 28 2009 11:49 AM EDT
don't forget me! :P
it's kind of a pain (I never enjoyed fighting as much as forging). I just have no other choice if I want to keep playing, and I do enjoy CB so. we'll see what happens :)
July 28 2009 11:50 AM EDT
lol, yeah I posted and right afterwards I thought it was stupid because I only mentioned those few players I know re-started last two weeks. Kudos to everyone else who's running NCB as well ;)
July 28 2009 11:54 AM EDT
Strum is back? Oh dear! Fear him!!!!!
July 28 2009 11:58 AM EDT
We always had a challenge bonus, it just wasn't displayed.
July 28 2009 12:35 PM EDT
JW, I don't think that is Ranger's point.
How could anyone starting on Jan 1, 2005 (like NWO, I believe) have a 100% challenge bonus on any target? That would be impossible.
However, wait a year and then NUB it up, and you could start seeing some serious challenge bonuses if you found the right targets.
Wait two years, even better.
NUB player now have 4.5 years of targets.
July 28 2009 12:56 PM EDT
Sickone, let Zenai finish his NCB and see if you still think 415% isn't enough now. If you want someone to break 5M with a single minion make the bonus 500%+.
July 28 2009 1:29 PM EDT
"That should figure into what % bonus they get. Using time alone to calculate the new N*B is not accurate."
It was taken into account in my calculations.
I assumes the "old day-one" character would have gotten 0% CB his entire lifetime, and I assumed the "new" character would get the best possible CB% (100% for all his life up to the point where he would have to fight the top character for 100% CB, and then just fighting that very same character all the way to the end).
July 28 2009 1:38 PM EDT
Your right, I failed to see your entire post about that situation.
But your calculation of the N*B is fairly close to Jon's.
July 28 2009 1:54 PM EDT
I suppose what Jon forgot to account for was the fact he has to calculate for the END of the N*B instead of the START of the N*B (since the original player also keep playing for those 6 months), and therefore he falls 6 months short of target (which is about 10% of total right now - so instead of ending up at around 95% of top MPR, people end up at around 86% of top MPR).
July 28 2009 1:55 PM EDT
In the past, in numerous replies, Jon has stated he calculated where the top character SHOULD be at the end of the N*B and used that to figure out what the N*B should be.
July 28 2009 1:56 PM EDT
July 28 2009 1:59 PM EDT
Above is an estimated NCB run for Zenai.
He's been doing a bang-up job so far, probably the best possible NCB out of all NCBs so far run by a single person (there was this other NCB run by two people, but that's a different story).
I seriously doubt he could have done it better... and he's looking at 4.3 mil MPR at best... if he's lucky. More like 4.25 mil.
Last time I checked, that's only roughly 84% or so of the top MPR. Hmm... sounds awfully close to my calculated 86%, wouldn't you say so ?
July 28 2009 2:03 PM EDT
Alright, since your good at math, and you seem like you have time. Why don't you calculate what Zenai's MPR would be with 3 hirings.
July 28 2009 2:04 PM EDT
That brings up a big problem I have had with the N*B since its inception.
Let us state that someone gets to 95% of the top MPR using a N*B. As a single minion.
Then they buy 3 minions. That would get them to perhaps 110% or higher of the top (at that time) character.
That is how a N*B took over the top spot 3 different times.
First Mantra with Cosmos, which later became Koy.
Second Sut with Hubbell. Then he forged a bit and lost the top spot.
Third is LA with FTW.
July 28 2009 2:12 PM EDT
Actually, let's say that Zenai reaches 84% of top MPR as a single minion, as per best estimates.
He could raise his total XP by 33.333% by hiring three "expensive" minions (you wouldn't want to know how much that would cost him in CB$, but still, USD could be a solution), which would translate into a +25.876% increase in MPR... or in other words, 105.7% of top MPR.
Yeah, THEORETICALLY, he could take the #1 spot that way.
But nobody wants to know how much that would cost, now would they ?
Oh, well, suppose they want to know... around 280 mil CB$... hmm, considering how much he probably spent on gear and BA, that wouldn't be THAT much of a stretch, it's probably about as much as he'll end up spending to begin with.
July 28 2009 2:14 PM EDT
The solution would actually be pretty simple...
....remove minion XP on hiring and make hiring cost symbolic.
July 28 2009 2:24 PM EDT
/me fights the good fight with his pocketbook for a dollar
You know I do not think that will be in my or my char's future without massive donations from the community :-/
wow 3 guys that broke the top mpr in the history of the game.
July 28 2009 6:21 PM EDT
Better watch out Henk, we might actually move to double digits in terms of who holds the top position sometime in the next decade!
July 29 2009 2:07 AM EDT
I got bored and thought I'd figure out what the amazing cost would be to see how long it would take for enough money to make a competitive team. Here are my results:
Gun's Team: Tim
BA Cost: 1055
Average Cash Reward: 450
Regen Rate: 7/20
Cost for 1600 BA: 1,688,000
Averaged Cost to Buy BA During NCB run: 200mil
Money for weapon Upgrades for Single Archer: 100mil(if not more)
Money Earned During Native BA Burn: 72,000
Native BA Filled Every: 7.5hrs or 3 times per day
Average Money Earned Per Day: 216,000
Days to Acquire Money For:
1600 Starting BA: 7.8 Days
Weapon Money: 462.9 Days
Averaged NCB BA: 925.9
Days Total: 1,396.6 or 1,400 Days Rounded
Years Required to Earn 302mil CBD: 3.8
Please note, these numbers are based upon the Tim team and are subject to change. An average cash reward was used due to projected fluctuation at the team's current MPR. Even with the growth expected during those years, the top place will rise accordingly. And based upon NWO's growth, as that is who people are using as their own basis, NWO's team would be at, approximately, 8mil MPR. At which point the cost would have to be recalculated to include higher weapon costs.
However! You get the arguement of, "USD makes NCBs overpowered!" So, the cost breakdown of purchasing that much CBD at the average exchange rate of 1mil per 4.50, which seems to be what most of the CBD is currently selling for, would result in a price of $1,359.
I honestly can't see that many people having 1.4k laying around to blow on an online game's cash to use up in six months.
July 29 2009 2:59 AM EDT
"1600 Starting BA: 7.8 Days "
If you make a character with 0 or 1 MPR and buy it, then its basically free, iirc.
Started with practically nothing, then ended up spending some of the money i made with my NCB so far on gear. Used the rest of my money to buy BA during XP times. Most of my gear is rented until my character gets big enough to wear my gear. So far, 22 days = Score / PR / MPR : 3,011,323 / 988,133 / 681,839
July 29 2009 3:21 AM EDT
If you make a character with 0 or 1 MPR and buy it, then its basically free, iirc.
That's why he wrote the cost in days...
You also left out the cost to buy three minions to pass the top. I'm pretty sure the only way this can happen now is with a dedicated NUB.
July 29 2009 5:57 AM EDT
lol..and supposin some one is stupid enough to ignore the advantage of N*B.(me)...shhhh.....
BA cost is high because if you're getting N times the PR per BA than a post-bonus character, or a hypothetical character that had been playing without bonus for 4.5 years, you have to pay N times the cost.
NCB has never been about "I should be able to run one with no savings every 6 months." Nor has it been about increasing money bonuses. You get one chance at a money bonus when you join the game; that's the NUB. After that you're on your own.
If I were to do it over again, I would probably allow less BA to be purchased, but 4.5 years in, that's a tough thing to change retroactively without being unfair to _someone_. And it has mostly worked as designed; well before CB1 hit the four year mark it was clear that it had become impossible for any character not already in the top 20 or so to get anywhere near there.
July 30 2009 1:58 PM EDT
Thanks for the post.
However you did state:
"And it has mostly worked as designed; well before CB1 hit the four year mark it was clear that it had become impossible for any character not already in the top 20 or so to get anywhere near there. "
But right now, with the very high cost of NCB BA, it is impossible for any NCB to get to the top 20 or even the top 30 without a huge expendature of money. Far more than almost anyone has saved from prior playing. That is without a huge USD infusion.
The only people that have a chance at the top 20/30 is a NUB. Great thing for them, but what about all those older players who have showed loyalty to CB but for some reason had to take some time off?
I am not trying to be argumentative, but trying to find some way for older players, who helped support CB2 all this time, to have a chance for a run at the top without spending a lot of USD.
Take Shadowsparkle for instance. If he sold all his items, he may have enough for a NCB run to the top 10/20. As one has to buy BA almost every day to do that. But then where would he be with items to equip a character at that level of play?
I hope you reply and thanks again for the post above.
Ranger... you're using an NCB that didn't have all it's BA bought and it's in the top 5...
July 30 2009 2:18 PM EDT
Scorewise Heroes is close to the top, MPR wise, no chance.
And he also spends USD on this game, no offense Ranger, just reminding people.
July 30 2009 2:20 PM EDT
"NCB has never been about "I should be able to run one with no savings every 6 months." Nor has it been about increasing money bonuses. You get one chance at a money bonus when you join the game; that's the NUB. After that you're on your own."
As Ranger has pointed out this is not always the case. I was around before the NUB was even thought of, RL came around and I had to stop playing period.
Just from listening to others I "KNEW" that I would NEVER have a chance at a NUB but an NCB yup I would but it would cost out of the wazoo. So I bought and saved a Ton of CBD from listening to other's NCB BA and Item Upgrade woes.
I have found that even adding 1/3 again to the numbers I was given is still inadequate. The The Item Drop System came around and totally skewed the income and further screwed the NCB as a viable option by default. No Offense meant but seriously it is ridiculous that an NCB should be this expensive AND have to Drop another 20% from the already diminished Income due to the Item Drop System.
So far if I had not dropped a TON of USD in an attempt to make this NCB worth my time and trouble then it would simply be garbage. Just to clarify this it would not matter what the strategy was as I have followed others and saw the same thing.
For those who do not have the USD the NCB is a total Nightmare and is Defeatist in it's very nature in reaching the Top 95% as proposed.
July 30 2009 2:35 PM EDT
No offense taken Silva.
But remember I am using the "overpowered" ELB and "overpowered" HF as the cornerstone of my strategy.
So lets review...
The NCB isn't about being able to get to the top without some investment
You don't have to buy all your BA to get somewhere
You can use it to get to the top 10 mpr
People will complain regardless of any concession made
I think that about sums it up.
July 30 2009 2:43 PM EDT
"NCB has never been about "I should be able to run one with no savings every 6 months." Nor has it been about increasing money bonuses. You get one chance at a money bonus when you join the game; that's the NUB. After that you're on your own."
Nobody here is asking for a money bonus, at most people are asking of a purchaseable BA cost reduction, to reduce the nightmarish costs associated with one.
Case in point, the NCB that Zenai has been running.
He has _almost_ 275 mil in item NW only, on an archer setup which fights far above his MPR (his score is roughly double that of his MPR, with PR somewhere in-between).
He has repeatedly traded up his tattoo, now having one of the few _largest_ tattoos in the entire game (over 8.5 mil level ToA), which is the second-best ToA in the entire game, with a NW of over 150 mil.
He has purchased item namings for each and every item he has on himself too, by the way.
And last but not least, he also bothered to purchase just about any BA he could so far, but I have a feeling his pockets are kind of running dry already.
I don't even want to calculate how much CB$ all of this has cost him so far, but 500 mil seems like a pretty darn low-ball number up until now... probably much more than that.
And what does he get to show for all this monumental effort ?
That's his projected growth rate.
At best, let's assume he can hope for about 85% of the top MPR, if he keeps on purchasing BA and manages to find slightly more powerful opponents he can beat (but his potential list of targets is getting thinner and thinner).
Most likely, he'll end up somewhere between #12 to #14 in MPR.
So... is this really what you want from a NCB ?
Even after this much effort not even manage a 95% of top MPR ?
What exactly is a NCB expected to pay to get there ?
How much more dedication do you really expect any of us to show ?
Without BA purchasing, with a decent strategy, getting in 6/20 is not extremely hard - but getting in the "top 10", it's seemingly nearly impossible even with massive spendings and BA purchases.
July 30 2009 2:45 PM EDT
Novice, Heroes is only in the top 25, not top 10. And Zenai is the only real proof of a NCB that will break the top five. And thats if he doesn't run out of USD first.
July 30 2009 2:46 PM EDT
"And Zenai is the only real proof of a NCB that will break the top five."
I seriously doubt he'll make top 10 even if he doesn't run out of CB$.
500m? Sickone your math is bad. The numbers I've seen put the total at about 130m... far far less than PoisoN has spent.
July 30 2009 2:49 PM EDT
500m considering all NW plus CB$ spent, not just BA cost.
July 30 2009 2:51 PM EDT
I doubt Z will break the top 10 even if he buys all his remaining BA.
His challenge bonus will shrivel up and go away very soon.
But then again to get to the top 10 spending 160M or more on BA, is it worth it?
One can compete at any MPR.
But if the goal of the NCB, as possibly stated by Jon's post was to let people have a chance to get to the top 20, the NCB fails in its current form.
For a NUB, it works great. Free BA, a money bonus, the multitude of older items out there available for a 75% or less insta, proven strategies known to work, knowledge of what items work best, etc...
For a NCB, even with all the prior knowledge, without a massive amount of CB, getting to 6 BA regeneration is a chore.
Nobody is asking for the ability to run a NCB every 6 months free of additional charges. That is just foolish talk.
People are asking for a more reasonable cost to make running one possible. Even at 1/2 the current cost, we are still talking about an 75+ million CB expendature. But far more manageable than 150+ million.
What point are you trying to prove with that?
If this is conversation about the viability of the NCB what relevance does the choice of strat have. Zenai could just as easily have been running a 0 NW 4 minion RoE setup using DM and FB.
It's completely possible to run an NCB from savings, it's been done.
July 30 2009 2:54 PM EDT
Man, how quickly 3/4s is forgotten about. Sorry 3/4's.
July 30 2009 2:54 PM EDT
Here is some quick calcuations I have just made:
When I was running TAB and Koy, after buying BA daily, I was making a 50k profit. That being in BR with its 15% bonus.
Now CB2 has been active for about 4.5 years.
50,000 x 365 = 18,250,000
That times 4.5 = 82,125,000
If you never bought/upgraded an item, saving all your CB each day, that is about how much you would have saved. Rough estimate. Then include the tattoo money you can get via insta down. Another bit of change.
Now with -20% money rewards due to the drop system, things are a bit more random. Depending on the drops you get.
But buying BA now for 1 NCB attempt is over 150M CB. How is that fair?
July 30 2009 2:56 PM EDT
"It's completely possible to run an NCB from savings, it's been done."
Solo-run NCB (so, ignore "SingleMinion") ?
One that got in the top 10 MPR ?
Or at least one that got to over 90% of top MPR ?
One with the current ruleset (i.e. started in march-april 2008 or earlier) ?
We'll just ignore the recent 20% drop in CB$ rewards for now.
Name it, please. I'd love to be proven wrong.
Buying BA is a choice, you're picking XP over NW.
There are examples of people who have through hard work made far more than that 80m in much less time.
July 30 2009 2:58 PM EDT
"Man, how quickly 3/4s is forgotten about. Sorry 3/4's. "
He didn't do it alone... he couldn't have done it alone...
July 30 2009 2:59 PM EDT
Solo run? That's still not against the rules you know. Hmm maybe I'll tell Zenai I'll do what Nem and 3/4s for free, did just so he can break top 5 easy.
July 30 2009 3:00 PM EDT
what nem and 3/4s did for free,*
July 30 2009 3:01 PM EDT
Art, the xfer costs on all his stuff/characters will be prohibitively expensive.
If it is to be done, one has to do it in the beginning, not in the middle/end.
July 30 2009 3:03 PM EDT
Nope, 1600BA/144 = 11.11 ; 850k x 11 = ~9.5M. It's still worth it, especially if I retire my character and spend the 1600 on xp time XD.
Saving 1600 BA (buying at non NCB 0mpr rates) and xfering the char is cheaper than buying 1600 BA at NCB prices (I did the math when 3/4 and Nem were doing it)
July 30 2009 3:12 PM EDT
Alright, for poison let's assume that he's spent an average of 1k per BA over the past 4 and a half years. I'd say that's a fairly conservative estimate. So, we take 4.5, the number of years he's played that character, 144, number of BA, 365 days in a year, and 1000, for the price. 1000 x 144 x 4.5 x 365 = 236.5M.
July 30 2009 3:25 PM EDT
"Solo run? That's still not against the rules you know. Hmm maybe I'll tell Zenai I'll do what Nem and 3/4s for free, did just so he can break top 5 easy. "
Oh well then, why stop at 2 players then ?
Why not three players ? Why not four, or five ?
Well, gee, why don't we make it a community effort then ?
Say, engage one third of the current CB population in it while you're at it, to spread the costs around... no, wait, make it HALF the CB population then, it's even nicer that way !
We all decide to stop playing our characters for a while, just so we get a chance at a very high MPR character run 6 months later !
We have about 200-some active characters, so make that 100 possible candidates.
Each of them would burn 1600 BA when they get the character, then pass it on soon after, as soon as the next in line has regrown their 1600 BA reserves.
Let's say it takes roughly 10 days to do that, cycled between 100 accounts, that's 10x1600 BA plus some minor regeneration in-between transfer per day (let's ignore that since it takes a good while to burn the BA in the first place), times say only 180 days, make that roughly 2.8 mil BA burned... oh, and by the way, a vast majority of that would be in the 6/20 range, since, well... you get the idea (that would be around 110k BA tops spent at that reward ratio by a regular NCB if he would have a fixed 6/20 rate for some odd reason).
In other words, that particular NCB would be able to earn more than 25 times more rewards than a regular NCB... even assuming that NCB will end up growing in the end at half the rate it could, and even assuming a NCB would end up at only 90% of top MPR, that's still over 11 times the current top MPR.
Yup, the top MPR would be somewhere around 58 mil MPR :P
After that, it becomes obvious most current characters would end up in the 9/20 bracket (while some in 10/20 even if they were significantly higher), and the ONLY reasonable way to compete in any way, shape or form would be to simply start a NCB.
Soon after everybody starts their new NCB, whoever got stuck with the 58 mil character RETIRES it (sorry, bub, no big character for you for 6 months at least), pushing just about every "current" NCB into the 6/20 bracket for a smooth sailing.
Obviously, soon enough nobody will be able to compete against them except other NCBs, and NUBs would be completely screwed over UNLESS they started at precisely the right moment.
At the end, the former owner of the 58 mil character unretires it, transfers it out one last time, starts a NCB of his own (with some help from everybody else to be fair), and the one the 58 mil MPR character gets transfered to retires it PERMANENTLY.
The more people participate in this sham, the better the end-result for every participant, and almost only the participants.
Does that sound like a smart thing to do ?
It was merely a mental exercise... but a frightening one, isn't it ?
I do have to say I have thought about that before sickone. There are a few problems with that scenario one being that the cost of xfering such a character would quickly grow to something like 50 mil per xfer or even higher and that because of such costs it would only be possible 1 time for the entire community and then we would all be getting to that mpr and then the game would go back to normal speed.
That is all provided that entire community would be willing to do such a thing in the first place and it would be very very hard to do.
July 30 2009 3:33 PM EDT
Just make it impossible to receive a transferred character if you have more than 160 BA.
But possible to create a new NCB no matter how much BA you have saved.
July 30 2009 3:36 PM EDT
NCB RULA. first ncb i bought a lot of equipment. Second NCB i bought some equips and forged it, am also saving money.
Only on my third ncb i will a lot of cash lefting and have full set of all minions. Its also cool that each time i starn new ncb i try new things.
i know i am not in your main discussion but whatever thats my opinion ncb cool
"Zenai could just as easily have been running a 0 NW 4 minion RoE setup using DM and FB."
You need to have top ten MPR to be competitive.
Top 10 MPR means top 10 score.
In other news, the prospect of an entire community making a stupid powerful character is not really that surprising. Did you expect anything less? Why not walk around with Physical immune AC while you're at it?
July 30 2009 5:51 PM EDT
"You need to have top ten MPR to be competitive.
Top 10 MPR means top 10 score."
Well, yes. If not, then its usually a PR pad or strategy issue... The point is, MPR is the most fundamental strength of a team.
July 30 2009 5:55 PM EDT
"Zenai could just as easily have been running a 0 NW 4 minion RoE setup using DM and FB."
That Draws another point into this discussion concerning the NCB. If the ONLY way I can run a successful NCB, is to follow only 1 or 2 strategies then this game has totally lost it's true focus. This of course would be an NCB that even has a ghost of a chance to make the Top 95% of the game. This COMPLETELY defeats the idea of this game. Why should I play ANY game that FORCES me out of necessity to play ONLY 1 or 2 strategies in order to be proficient and cost efficient? So um yeah what you guys said *Cough Cough* are you serious?
Just to break the ice and make a point at the same time
NCB = "Help, Help I'm being Oppressed!"
In the Strategy department if this is true.
Honestly I cannot tell you simply because this is my FIRST NCB run :-/
I used to think that until I watched Heros and Vectoids win out of brute force. Novices team started to be dominant even before it was in the top 10 MPR.
Coming from a guy who had the MPR and not the exp distribution, it's a lot more complex than that. Besides, the difference between the top 10 and top 20 is only like 500k MPR. 500k MPR is maybe 2 million levels this late in the game, 3 million levels?
Either way, that's not enough to make or break the game. Coming from the top, exp distribution is what makes a team strong, coupled with a good strategy. Sheer MPR isn't as big as a deal as you would think it is.
"In other news, the prospect of an entire community making a stupid powerful character is not really that surprising. Did you expect anything less? Why not walk around with Physical immune AC while you're at it?"
Well, the plan was full magical immune AC, but first, we need everyone to band together and make a team with enough encumbrance to do so :P
July 30 2009 6:12 PM EDT
"I used to think that until I watched Heroes and Vectoids win out of brute force. Novices team started to be dominant even before it was in the top 10 MPR."
I think you have said it right and inadvertently made my point 3/4ths. All of these guys have used USD in one way or another AND have had that option since the start. Not all of the people playing this game have this option. Even if they do, not to the extent that these dominant Teams/Players are capable of doing. All that is left is simply the Strategies that are the most cost efficient and crap shoot for proficiency.
The statement I made before about the vicious circle of NCB after NCB seems to come to mind, run Several NCBs in preparation of the main run, how ludicrous.
My statement still stands in it's entirety.
I don't think I was arguing with you.
I'm just making fun of the idea that people think they need to buy ALL their BA to be competitive, or that they needs something like top 10 MPR to play the game properly. I disagree. I would argue that completive gameplay lies in a region much larger than that silly 95% top MPR many of you feel entitled ( I don't know why) to.
I think it's really silly to bash the NCB system because it's hard. Sure it's expensive, but not as expensive as you think it needs to be.
I pointed at Novice, Vectoid and Ranger before because of their low MPR and their ability to take top 5 spots. But perhaps they were bad examples if they imply you need to spend that much on equipment if you want to be competitive. Those guys are not trying to be competitive, those guys are going for top spot, it's a different game up there and yes it's a game that requires USD. Let me restate this in case it is unclear: you don't need USD to play competitively, you do need USD to strive for top spot. And I think that's perfectly fair. Cause top spot means next to zero people farming you, and that should be pretty darn hard.
Actually, I guess I am disagree with you.
July 30 2009 7:26 PM EDT
I love you 3/4s.
"I would argue that completive gameplay lies in a region much larger than that silly 95% top MPR many of you feel entitled ( I don't know why) to."
What would you consider to be the relative 'boundaries' of that region? Without spending huge amounts of money, one can only at best hope for something like 75% of the top MPR.
Also, people running NCBs should be able to get to 95% of the top MPR (as they're 'entitled to' as you say) because that's the way it's set up. I'm pretty sure Jon has said that the N*B is calibrated to be at 95% of the top MPR by the end.
The only problem is that 95% is realistically impossible for all but less than a handful of people, almost all if not all of which would be NUBs and heavy USD spenders.
July 30 2009 8:07 PM EDT
/me Points at Tyriel's Argument as the Standard he was attempting to make Clear.
The Point Overall 3/4ths is that even those that are looking to make it to the "Area of True Competitiveness" is not only hard but close to impossible without some kind of fall back, up to Major Loans and possibly including USD to make it.
All of this is NOT talking about hitting the Top 95% that yes Jon did say was the AIM of the NCB in the first place. So no offense but your argument is moot in light of that in and of itself :-/
If all your aim is in an NCB run is to simply have some fun then ok not a problem. However if you are trying to make a serious run well there you are the Unmovable Object aka Competitive Cost is in your way. The only way to attempt to move it is to use the Irresistible Force aka USD and Hope against Hope.
This should NOT be the sole Aim of the NCB which all of these options are pointing to in the End of a Competitive run on any level.
July 30 2009 8:10 PM EDT
You can make 95%, you can actually make about 110%, so your point is moot. Just because it's hard, doesn't mean it's not impossible. If you want to be competitive, get a loan, sacrifice.
July 30 2009 8:19 PM EDT
Titan, do you know of someone willing to loan out 350mil? Short of NS or Jon themselves? Lostling isn't packing that kind of cash anymore. Or are you firmly in the land of "USD Players are the Only Real CB Players" now?
Thats -all- that CB has become. USD Players in the top, with the rest of us scratching at the top 50.
July 30 2009 8:35 PM EDT
"What would you consider to be the relative 'boundaries' of that region? Without spending huge amounts of money, one can only at best hope for something like 75% of the top MPR."
Realistically, more like 65% of the top MPR, and that with a fairly decent strategy and occasional XP-bonus BA purchase.
July 30 2009 8:39 PM EDT
Arty I usually Agree with you on things but in this I am completely on the opposite side. As SG has pointed out unless you are under prime conditions you will NEVER make that 110% let alone the 95%. So is my argument moot not a chance and you know it.
There is no such thing as Prime Conditions anyway Period. Either there is no one with the Cash to Loan or Sell or USD to buy or Items to sell so where does that leave the NCB? Under less than anything Close to Prime Conditions for everyone. (Yes I know there is a Ton of CBD out there right now to be sold but if the person does not want to sell for a certain price or no one has the USD to buy it then what??)
The NCB needs to be redone in at least the very sense that 20% of money is being Deducted for the Item Drop System and should be returned because of the insane costs as is.
July 30 2009 8:44 PM EDT
"You can make 95%, you can actually make about 110%, so your point is moot. Just because it's hard, doesn't mean it's not impossible. If you want to be competitive, get a loan, sacrifice. "
Know of anybody who would loan me... oh, let's see... 150 mil for the BA... 20 mil or so for tattoo upgrades... 250 mil for extra NW on gear... and 280 mil for minion hiring.... that's 700 mil.
So, will you loan me 700 mil CB$ please ?
I promise to pay them back with interest by the end of 2015 !
July 30 2009 8:46 PM EDT
man this thread is boring, u better watch Michael Jackson
July 30 2009 8:49 PM EDT
I really have to disagree.
Perhaps, maybe someone will buy 1 more minion if over 3M MPR due to its cost. To hold the tattoo and have some flexibility with a character.
But for 70+M CB2, another minion would be foolish. That money would far better be used in equipment.
Even myself, a proclaimed USD spender, bought the cheaper minion, saving 42M in the process. That 42M went to my ELB and helps much more than a million or so levels on my 2nd minion.
The NCB now is done taking over the top spot. Now is it just to see how high you get.
And sadly, unless you save up a lot of CB, (years worth) or spend hundreds of USD, any hope you had to compete at the top is gone. With the best you can hope for, likely buying BA early on and starting with 1600 BA is about 3.3M MPR. Well below the 95% Jon stated the N*B was hoping to achieve. Unless of course, you multi.
There is a difference between hard and impossible. Nobody wants to make it easy. Everyone would take just plain ole hard. But impossible does nobody any good.
July 30 2009 8:56 PM EDT
"There is a difference between hard and impossible. Nobody wants to make it easy. Everyone would take just plain ole hard. But impossible does nobody any good."
Agreed in this it creates a Defeatist attitude in those who are wanting to actually compete rather than just have some fun.
KW please stop Trolling if you do not like the Thread then do not post. As a matter of a fact you can just simply avoid the Thread altogether.
July 30 2009 10:52 PM EDT
"You can make 95%, you can actually make about 110%, so your point is moot."
Really? REALLY? Where is this coming from?
July 30 2009 11:00 PM EDT
Ask, 3/4s what his MPR would be after 3 hirings, and he didn't even transfer his character as much as what is conceivable.
July 30 2009 11:19 PM EDT
Arty I believe that Sickone has pretty much said it best if a bit on the sarcastic side:
"Know of anybody who would loan me... oh, let's see... 150 mil for the BA... 20 mil or so for tattoo upgrades... 250 mil for extra NW on gear... and 280 mil for minion hiring.... that's 700 mil.
So, will you loan me 700 mil CB$ please ?
I promise to pay them back with interest by the end of 2015 !"
I believe this would be 3/4ths as well without a doubt. Consider this we ALL know that a possibility it can happen BUT is is Improbable to the point of Impossibility. Honestly who has this kind of Money to do this kind of minion highering?
Sure there is a possibility that it Could happen but in actuality fat chance. So please stop beating the dead horse on this, let it go as you know that the chances of it happening are Slim to Absolutely NONE.
July 30 2009 11:48 PM EDT
"Ask, 3/4s what his MPR would be after 3 hirings, and he didn't even transfer his character as much as what is conceivable."
Is this character switch around thing really allowed? It certainly seems like an EXPLOIT of the game.... in my opinion.
July 30 2009 11:52 PM EDT
And when the NCB was created to make 95%, I do NOT think Jon intended for it to be achieved through character switching and through minion hirings.
July 31 2009 12:02 AM EDT
Jon have said it's OK to switch NCB since the cost is HUGE. I'm gonna see later if I can find the thread.
July 31 2009 12:14 AM EDT
He did say that but at the same time the switching is not the reason for this thread in the first place. It IS about the cost pure and simple. When you think about it the cost would be the same anyway considering Item and Char Xfers. It is STILL way to EXPENSIVE. The average player cannot afford this and as a USD Spender myself I'm barely getting by so this should say something. The NCB needs to be looked at and redone. It was barely if at all manageable before the 20% Reduction for the Item Drop System. Now it is totally skewed to insane proportions that make it not viable for all strategies/players.
My point in this is with all of the Nerfing that Jon has done to Items was in an attempt at soft changes in order to make it even for all strategies/players. This is also inclusive of items that he has introduced. With the NCB the way it is now that is not true any longer.
"well before CB1 hit the four year mark it was clear that it had become impossible for any character not already in the top 20 or so to get anywhere near there."
that is what i realized with cb1. it was pretty discouraging but i loved the game so i stuck with it.
now we have the ncb. you "can" get to around 90% of top mpr, but i will never shell out that kind of dough. it is quite cheap to get to 65 to 70% though which is just amazing compared to what i experienced in cb1. that is the point that i have been trying to make for a while now. just because the top range is at 90 percent or so, it doesn't mean everyone is entitled to that or at least i never took it that way.
with the difference of cost from 70% to 90% i actually think it would be silly for anyone to try it but it is still possible. i am just damn glad we have what we do as i probably wouldn't still be playing cb if this version was more similar to cb1 in this regard.
This would probably be less of an issue if forging were a lot less bad. It would provide an avenue to actually make money, which people could use to fuel an NCB.
Fighting makes money, fighting with a tat earns more NW.
Forging makes almost as much money as Fighting.
Now... a system where you could forge someone's weapon without having to have them xfer it... that would be something.
You could have a simple job selection interface where people listed work they wanted done and you did the work and got your pay from a system based escrow account. Never without a job!
That would make forging better, just the ability to always have work!
That's actually really kind of cool...
July 31 2009 2:51 AM EDT
I like that idea novice.
Not just cool, genius.
Anyone have any idea the kinda coding that would take?
Probably a lot :) But we'll see.
July 31 2009 3:19 AM EDT
Woudn't the prices have to be similar to the forge dwarf? Otherwise, unless you were impatient, you'd always go to the forgers because they'd be cheaper.
Of course we could just replace the forge dwarf with forgers...providing we have enough forgers...
I think it's just a system where there's a place where you can post a forge job (in which case the money and item are put in storage for the job), and accept jobs (where the item is given to you). Then when you get to the requested point, you receive the money and the item goes back. It's a great idea, and shouldn't be all that hard. But hearing how hard it is to code things in CB, it'd probably be quite a bit harder than I think it is.
It's a great idea. But I don't think it's enough to make the huge cost of an NCB any less huge.
The issue with that is elven gear, its not forgeable. I think really thats all the BS is around for these days.
JW forging still takes time to complete, the ability to still have your item is a trade off for the 20% cash loss we just got hit for.
This way getting even large items forged is possible, and people can run more tanks!
Back to topic... The NCB is hard, and it should be.
July 31 2009 6:27 AM EDT
Indeed the NCB is hard and that part has been established and agreed to, however, it should not be hard to the point of impossibility. The Forging although a good idea will NOT make up for the 20% Reduction in cash flow. Giving it back to NCBers would make up for the 20% Reduction for the insane costs.
Honestly what if I do not have a want or even a knack for forging? Should I be forced into something I do not want to or cannot do? Jon as I have seen has done quite a bit to make things even to open up options for players. Forging would be 1 option, but it should NOT be the only option.
Maybe more options to make money could be a way to help settle this problem on an overall. Make Jobs for the Game and have people get their butts to work. Truthfully some would just say I don't wanna but others that are running NCBs would snap it up in a heartbeat I'm sure. I know that I would without thought, simply because the NCB is so expensive.
Zenai, you do have to factor in that the fewer people fighting, the chance of a drop should increase. Less competition for the good drops.
It really isn't too difficult to have fun in this game without being in the 90% of the top MPR.
Trust me on this one.
July 31 2009 7:07 AM EDT
"Zenai, you do have to factor in that the fewer people fighting, the chance of a drop should increase. Less competition for the good drops."
Nayab the Drop system will go on with or without more participants, from what I understand it scales to the number of people participating at any time. Look at it like this the Item Drop System would never work to specs if it only worked with all of the active players on at one time. I'm sure that Jon thought of this and programmed that factor in. So the Competition for the Items NEVER go down or up for that matter, it stays the same ALL the time a 20% Chance.
Besides this there is only money in it for those actually soaking up the good items and selling them or using them, for the rest it is a no go situation. We have to take into account that some people cannot use this as a tool to get an edge. This is why I proposed a Job Market. Not just forging a JOB MARKET, in other words a plethora of different tasks to be performed in order to gain CBD.
The way I see it there was a LOT of coding involved for the Item Drop System and there will be a lot to even it out for those attempting to make an NCB run. Either Take it Back, Hike up the Cash Rewards 20% for N*Bs, or Make a Job Market. There 3 different answers to 1 Problem.
July 31 2009 7:13 AM EDT
Marl not to attack your statement because for the most part that is true. However, what if my aim is not to have fun but actually compete and strive for the 90% or above Range? Realistically I CANNOT make it therefore killing any set Goal, in short destroying any FUN I might garner from actually hitting that proposed goal.
Yes I know the 90% above Range is not the be all end all of this game but it is one of the main goals of the game in the first place. Compete, Dominate, Destroy the competition, reign at the Top of the Tier. It is not for some I agree but for others that actually WANT to go for it, their chances are so minute it is not even funny.
Oh thanks for that enlightenment Zenai, i wasn't aware that the drops were scaled by a user basis.
You can still compete at the top without being in the 90% range. Strategy > Tattoo > NW > MPR, imo.
July 31 2009 10:13 AM EDT
Back to that forge idea for a second. Would you propose that the item stays in the hands on the owner?
Then... It would actually be amazing if you could have multiple people forging it at the same time :P
July 31 2009 10:18 AM EDT
It is prohibitively expensive, and fairly so.
My primary issue with the NCB is the throwaway character system it promotes. I _hate_ that.
July 31 2009 10:53 AM EDT
"My primary issue with the NCB is the throwaway character system it promotes. I _hate_ that."
I think by extending the NCB duration would help solve this issue.
The "throwaway character system" that people are referring to now is a product of the 4-month NCB. I think the problem has slowed down since the NCB was extended to 6 months.
However, I am all for a 12 month NCB duration. This would definitely help this situation!
And on a side note, DECREASE BA costs for the NCB!!
July 31 2009 10:57 AM EDT
@Forging Idea: Yay! Lets give a third strategy to how to play a successful NCB. You can either Solo Archer, 4Minion RoE or Forge! Remind me to sell out.
@"NCB Are Hard": No duh Novice! We all agree on that. What we're not agreeing on, and what you've been purposefully avoiding, is the fact that the only way a NCB could make a feaseable attempt at the top is to either save up CBD for the next 4 years, more due to the fact that I didn't buying the other three minions would cost 230mil, or spending $1,400 on CBD, again more due to the extra minions. We're all fine with the fact that playing a NCB should never be easy, we agree on it! However, the only way you can make a true run for the top is to spend USD. And if NCB's shouldn't have the ability to close in on the top, then I might as well quit playing CB now because I'd love to try and play with the big boys some day, but I wasted my NUB.
@Throwaway Characters: Yes, this part of the NCB is stupid. But unless you managed to break 3.7mil MPR, at current, then you will never have a chance at playing around in the top 10 and should just quit. Thats all there is to this game now.
I don't believe that the NCB should have 1 fixed time period. Some people want to run a slower one others would prefer the fast one to try out new teams. I think the best solution to this problem would be to have 3 options for the NCB.
A 4 month NCB
A 6 month NCB
and a year NCB
If you are running a full bought ba run then the 1 year NCB would be a lot more lenient on the costs.
July 31 2009 11:01 AM EDT
However, I hate to yet again state the simpliest solution-
July 31 2009 11:03 AM EDT
Dreky, I feel that the idea of constantly extending the bonus period just to keep the percentage to a manageable level is nothing short of retarded. It isn't a solution, it's a temporary extension to a poor system.
July 31 2009 2:26 PM EDT
OB Ranger Agreed The Ideas in this Thread:
Address and have a very good solution, in my opinion, for the presented problem.
However another thing here is that if this Ever get's implemented the it will have to be ironed out. The probability of this getting implemented though is Slim and closer to None as Jon has stated he is against the Rolling Bonus.
So we are left with what after this? Very little except suck it up since the feedback from the higher ups are few and far between and usually not in favor of the subject. I understand that RL strikes and to echo someone else in this thread I am Glad that the system is in place at all. However, it is outdated and needs a revamp, badly. As has been pointed out the extensions set up or that have been implemented are a band-aid for a broken arm.
Jon, here is the problem witht he NCB cost.
As you want NCBers to pay for thier XP bonus, you are in essence cramming the lifespan of earning a Character from Jan 1st would have had, into the 6 month timeframe of a NCB.
If you did something in CB, something fun for the community, like fund a competition. Or even wasted CB purchasing BA for an old character (as tht cash is gone, you can't ever get it back, characters don't sell at all, let alone tryin to get a portion of your original BA cost back), or Disenchanted items to run with Changemonth Changes.
You can no longer *ever* afford a NCB.
Without external USD injecitons.
You can't fight and save up, becuase the cost increases, while you're trying to cover the deficit you already have.
Unless you find a way of generating *more* cash from the game than anyone else playing, there's no way.
Especially as the larger you are, the more rewards you get.
If you want the NCB to be a viable option for the whole player base, it needs to be changed.
And I really can't understand why you wouldn't want it to be a viable option for the entire playerbase...
"Unless you find a way of generating *more* cash from the game than anyone else playing, there's no way."
Hehe, I guess that means there is still a way for me even though I haven't bought through USD.
July 31 2009 3:00 PM EDT
On the other hand, the NUB was in place almost from the beginning of CB.
The NCB was only put in place after the older players moaned about how unfair things were. It was not in Jon's initial plans.
Jon has posted about how he wants xp=cost. And very clearly on that subject. You pay for the xp you get. And with the NCB being crammed into 6 months, the cost is directly what the xp is.
He has also stated his objections to a rolling bonus idea, saying it would promote laziness.
Short of expanding the NCB to 1 year, within the parameters of Jon's posts, there is no other solution to the extensive NCB costs.
And as the game goes longer, there is nothing really wrong about making the N*B longer.
I think it was 3 months in the beginning due to some research done by others stating that most people play an online game for 3 months until they typically get bored and move to another.
I'm all for a year long NCB. That would distribute the cost immensely, in my opinion.
July 31 2009 3:57 PM EDT
Can you imagine the drop-off for a NUB who has played for a YEAR and suddenly has no bonus? It would be even worse than now! That's the entire game career for some players!
No. Simply extending it further and further until you have a NUB for a decade just to catch up and lose all bonus is ridiculous, stupid, inane!
There needs to be a REPLACEMENT of the current system, not simply tacking on little fixes and letting it become worse and worse.
July 31 2009 4:01 PM EDT
I 100% agree that the N*B is horrible. I hated it from the first day I found out it was active. Forget about the older players and give everything to the new ones is my feelings on how it works.
However, within the parameters Jon has posted, the only solution I can think of is prolonging the NCB to 1 year. I have yet to see another solution within Jon's parameters.
There are, of course, many better solutions. However, Jon is adamantly against all of them as evidence by his posts.
It is his game and his right to be opposed. We just need to try to find a solution that fits within his system.
We can continue to bang our heads against the wall till our brains come out, however, it does no good.
Choosing how long we could make the ncb would be cool, from 6-12 months. NUB should stay 6 months though.
Extending the Bonus duration wouldn't reduce the overall cost in any way.
July 31 2009 4:51 PM EDT
But it will let you accumulate money while fighting longer to help offset its cost.
But that's kinda self defeating in that it increases your deficit should you ever start another NCB...
Even if a rolling bonus was to promote, or even reward, lazyness, if it makes CB more accessable for more players, is that even a bad thing?
July 31 2009 5:40 PM EDT
Rolling freaking bonus...
August 1 2009 8:40 AM EDT
Yeah the RB and a Few other Ideas will go the way of the Dodo and we will still have the NCB the way it is now. This was my first NCB and Even with pumping it up with USD I find it Lacking even though I am doing well. To put it in perspective if I am dumping insane amounts of USD and CBD into this Char and I am doing barely up to what I would consider Par. If this is doing well then I can only imagine how other NCBers feel as they cannot even afford to buy their BA because of the insane prices and 20% Drop in Cash Rewards.
This is my First NCB and until SOMETHING beneficial for the NCB comes along to actually FIX this problem I will NEVER start another one it is just too freaking expensive.
My NCB will probably be a keeper for a while but others NCB Chars will probably not be as there are other Bigger/Better Chars for sale without the 6 month wait, and a far better price maybe 1/10th of the Cost. Yeah no wonder there is a Throwaway Char System now.
in the past, i have jokingly stated that people wouldn't be happy until they could instantly create a character with whatever percentage of the top mpr at that time.
what if we did allow just that but only once?
August 1 2009 11:33 AM EDT
I haven't bought more than 100 ba in my entire ncb run. Because it is too expensive.
August 1 2009 3:17 PM EDT
It sadly shows...
I'd wait till you'd all used yours, then take a break for a while, come back and make a 100% of the Top spot one. ;)
hehe! i meant though that if it is supposed to be 95% then allow a one time per account creation of a 95% of the top mpr character at the time of creation.
it would take care of most of the issues with disposable teams. everyone would have a shot at the top ten, but the dedicated and the good strategists would likely be the ones that stayed there.
August 1 2009 10:43 PM EDT
Except that the fun is GETTING there. ;p
August 1 2009 10:54 PM EDT
True Demigod but the fun in getting there is severely hampered and even in some cases down right killed off because of the expense. Think about this you are doing well and everything is going well then all of a sudden the cost becomes more than you can handle, now your fun starts to turn into worry. Not a good thing to say the least.
August 1 2009 11:09 PM EDT
Which is why I fully support the rolling bonus concept. I really wish Jon played his own game so he could realize the problems that exist.
August 2 2009 12:17 AM EDT
I still think the better answer to this is The Ideas in this Thread:
Address and have a very good solution, in my opinion, for the presented problem.
August 3 2009 1:19 AM EDT
What worries me in this system is this:
Lets say you're running an NCB with all the money required to purchase BA everyday. You're doing very well, not missing a single BA and buying everyday. Challenge bonus is kept at 100% for as long as possible. Essentially, its the perfect run. Suddenly, after 4 months of NCB, there is a Real Life incident (hospitalization, internet problems, you name it) and you cannot continue your NCB. Thus, 2/3 of the (hundreds of millions of CBD) money that you needed for the NCB is wasted.
Honestly, one cannot expect someone to be uninterrupted for 6 months straight.
August 3 2009 1:20 AM EDT
If Zenai got in a RL incident now and could not play for a month, or even a week, his NCB is shot.
August 3 2009 2:42 AM EDT
It wouldn't even take a RL incident. When Jon changed junction to the AoJ my last NCB was stopped, because I didn't have the equipment to carry it on in a different form, and without junction it didn't work at the level I was playing at, so my challenge bonus would have disappeared.
Yeah, so changemonth can kill an NCB stone dead...
And kill all the time building up the required money, plus waste all the money you then spend on the super expensive BA...
August 3 2009 5:02 AM EDT
Now you all know why I've got over 60 million cb2 in my account and I'm not using it. ;)
maybe you just need to find something else to do? spend time with a nice girl or work overtime for more money? go out for drinks with your friends?
i'm pretty sure the BA limit is meant to throttle the game.. you need to learn patience.. you can either play the game with unlimited BA and get sick of it in less than a month, or you can play the game properly over time and get sick of it years down the road instead
i can see why you think an NCB would be a waste of time now if you don't think you can get the MPR any higher than you already are.. if that's the case, you can either consider yourself "finished" or you can start all over again for the hell of it; same as any other game
August 3 2009 7:13 AM EDT
Your Point has Merit for some Cases Levon, but not in all of them. Case in point I AM NOT PLAYING FOR FUN but to COMPETE. Without the ability to compete on the level needed it is a waste of time and effort. This in itself is opposite of the purpose of the NCB in the first place. The NCB was created to Let Older Players(Those who have passed their NUB) have a shot @ 95% of the Top MPR, in all basics allow them to Compete on the higher levels. As far as the BA Costs you are wrong, they cost as much as they do because you are in essence BUYING your EXP.
Problem is they are so expensive now it is not even funny, for me right now 5,297 per BA. Now times this by 168 since I am in the 7/20 Regen Bracket that equals 889,896. Now times this buy 7 it equals 6,229,272 <-- That is cost by week if you buy every day. If you want to compete completely at the highest level then there you go that is what you have to do.
There are those who want to compete but not at the Level I am. Because of the insane costs brought about by the 20% Automatic Deduction in Cash Rewards because of the Item Drop System it is unreasonable to say the least. Because it is unreasonable people cannot pay/compete and therefore have a Flash in the Pan NCB, therefore creating a Throwaway Character System. This is not the Purpose of the NCB System in the First place. Having a Throwaway Character System is Defeatist of the NCB System.
August 3 2009 7:15 AM EDT
It is far cheaper to buy XP by buying an existing character now than it to buy BA to build your own.
In fact you could buy several existing characters for the price of an NCB run.
It's been this way for a long time...
I bought a 1.5 Mil MPR character for transfer fees I think.
I couldn't even sell a 2.8M MPR character for the transfer fees...
Mine was a while ago. ;)
But that's the point isn't it. Why spend the exordinate amount of cash on a NCB to get you to 3 Mil, when you can buy one for Transfer Fees?
Seems a bit skewed. But the answer will probably be to make Character transfers more expensive. ;)
Tattoo growth is the only reason I could see, GL.
Instead of spending 60+ Mil on BA, use that money to buy a Tattoo...
If the NCB was cheaper, sure.
Of course you can just play a no bought BA NCB to level a tat of yours, to use with the 3+ MPR charcater you buy.
But then the NCB is still not really working at all...
"Why spend the exordinate amount of cash on a NCB to get you to 3 Mil, when you can buy one for Transfer Fees?"
while i agree with your sentiment, your numbers are off. you can get to over 3m mpr without any other money invested than rewards. 4m mpr might be a better example of your point though.
August 3 2009 9:28 AM EDT
I did managed to finish one NCB, I think. After that, I tried restarting but gave up...many times. The problems include the high cost of BA, difficulty in finding opponents (because of the fast growth, you need to change your favourite list almost every 160 BA in order to get 100% challenge bonus) and time invested in finding the opponents.
i could be mistaken but i think i remember seeing alot of posts about the top players wondering why everyone wants the NUB and NCB to allow just about any other player to overtake them.. i really don't understand why anyone needs to make it to the top unless they have some sick lust for power, or they have some sick desire to beat everyone.. to be honest with you, if you make it to 5 million MPR with your NCB and i make it to 1.2 million, you haven't beaten me at all.. it just means you put more hours into grinding your character up and i spent more time on real life, plain and simple
as for competition, this was solved with the introduction of tournaments.. this is where you compete.. try to win a tournament if you need a challenge
as for the reduced money, it's not reduced money anymore, now it's the standard.. calling it reduced money would be like calling the elimination of interest on your cash holdings reduced money
August 3 2009 11:20 AM EDT
Actually Levon that is incorrect.
This is a decrease to money since the old money system was based upon other fixed costs.
Like items/weapon upgades, BA costs and minion hiring costs.
Yes, one can say it is the new level of money making, however, we know it is less due to the harder times we have with the fixed costs built into the system.
That will not change.
August 3 2009 12:46 PM EDT
"as for competition, this was solved with the introduction of tournaments.. this is where you compete.. try to win a tournament if you need a challenge "
Honestly, I don't want the only competition the top spot gets to be done in the middle of a tourney when we play against each other. I see no reason why even the Top 10 MPRs can't be worried about possibly having someone come up into their quiet little solitude and play with the big boys.
August 3 2009 12:47 PM EDT
"I see no reason why even the Top 10 MPRs can't be worried about possibly having someone come up into their quiet little solitude and play with the big boys. "
/me claps, LOUD!
And you can make that MPR or scores. I welcome the challenge.
August 3 2009 1:09 PM EDT
Quite honestly Ranger, Score doesn't mean squat. Its very easy to have a high score. My team is at 1.4mil MPR and has a 4.2mil Score, and its not even played well. MPR shows who is really doing the best due to their growth.
August 3 2009 1:37 PM EDT
"Quite honestly Ranger, Score doesn't mean squat. Its very easy to have a high score. My team is at 1.4mil MPR and has a 4.2mil Score, and its not even played well. MPR shows who is really doing the best due to their growth."
Sure, but you're also at a lower level. All you need is one high level character to beat in order to have such a huge Score/MPR ratio.
Which is exactly why it's such a bad measure. Just look at three4th's temptation. ;)
August 3 2009 1:48 PM EDT
Just look at Mandos when he was using that exbow vs Sut.
One 6M+ score character gave him tons of score. But was he really that powerful? No.
And it is easy, no very easy, to find a few abandoned characters in the 4M score range. But once you get a bit higher up, score is harder to come by.
August 3 2009 1:52 PM EDT
Ah but Rwar, I'm not power farming like I should be. I'm just hitting people in my MPR range. Its how I play.
August 3 2009 2:53 PM EDT
You're also not in a clan which lowers the amount of people farming you and thus keeping your score higher.
August 3 2009 3:11 PM EDT
Which is double bladed because I'm not getting the bonus I should from being in one.
August 3 2009 5:14 PM EDT
One of the biggest problems I see is the following:
Once your done with your NCB/NUB, there is no real effective way to catch those above you. Via MPR.
If you add more NW, you may be able to catch then via score.
However, with the new 20 min ba regeneration, and the fact the upper zone is 6 ba regeneration, one cannot simply use more BA than those above you to try to catch up.
You have one shot with your NUB, and then one must put millions of CB for another with the NCB. One your bonus growth is over, that's essentially it.
If one could catch up via more BA, or via sleeping less, or some other method-great.
But once your done with the N*B, the only chance is to start another. Which is very tiring for people given its 6 month timeframe.
That is the real problem Ranger not the NCB itself. It is the difficulty of moving throughout the ranks when not in an NCB. A rolling bonus as you say is one way to alleviate this problem. All it would really do though is bring those people closer up but not actually switch the order around at all. What we need is something new to this game that increases the competition of the regular game and allows for movement to occur for regular characters in relation to each other and the top character including the ability of surpassing the top.
On that note I like the NCB where it is.
August 3 2009 5:30 PM EDT
"All it would really do though is bring those people closer up but not actually switch the order around at all."
The smaller the gap in MPR, the greater the importance of strategy kicks in. I don't think anyone expects to have a system where people can surpass the top MPR. But I would think everyone wants a system where we can get REASONABLY CLOSE to the top so that strategy is the deciding factor in top characters.
August 3 2009 5:35 PM EDT
It would be nice if top mpr at least converged a little bit, but with the current system, and lack of negative challenge bonuses that doesn't happen.
it would be nice to see this "rolling bonus" simply as a bonus limited by BA spent rather than a ticking clock.. instead of 6 months for NCB make it a fixed number of BA.. that would let the 24/7 players get more sleep and have less RSI and would let the non-daily players get their fair share of a 6 month bonus
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