Can we get PL changed, please? (in General)

OK, I'm out of the loop, mis-educated, and just not very smart. Granted, granted, granted.

But I never knew this:

Hal hit Kano-san [520380]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [190910]
Hal hit Kano-san [517474]
Joe takes damage from his own Magic Missile (270794)!
Joe's Magic Missile hit Kano-san [689300]

I'm Hal and Joe, and Kano-san and Inept Enchanter are part of "Incompetent Duo". The above is a sample of my attack on that character (it's awesome, he stalemated me!).

Not only does PL act as a force shield, kicking in before the absorbed-from can die, it knows when to shut off so that the PL sink doesn't die himself! Wow! Holy crap that is the most amazing and retarded thing in the game! Man, I just wish we could have more inconsistent gaming elements in play like that. Maybe, maybe...random spell drops where I have a random chance of training a massive AS one fight, and a massive STR the next. That would be AWESOME!

So, even with a front and back attack, I can't get to the PL sink, and even when the PL sink is out of HP, he won't die. He can hide in death -- what a genius tactic! Then, the TSA gives him more HP for the next round, lather, rinse, repeat.

Please, I implore the powers that be: Fix PL. Do something. PL is stupid. It rewards laziness in the biggest way possible, by making a huge PL sink the most powerful thing in the game. It's not smart, it's not hard, it's just a matter of doing it. A mediocre game element that requires no tactical savvy or thought.

At the very least, stop letting things hide within death or zero hit points. If a PL sink hits zero, make the sink start taking FULL DAMAGE on the next hit. You can even go ahead and let the TSA try to resurrect him after that. My treat.

Can someone please address this?

This as well as the TSA has been beaten heavily and I agree. However it was made to be this way and is working quite well. I am not sure if the "powers that be" will be inclined to change something that is in their eyes "not broken". :-/

Sure... hand yourself the win against me.

If we're fixing broken things how about a familiar with a weapon with a NW near the NW of the whole tat.

"At the very least, stop letting things hide within death or zero hit points. If a PL sink hits zero, make the sink start taking FULL DAMAGE on the next hit."

I am unsure of what you mean by that statement Sut.

If we start having minions take damage when dead, that really cuts into CoC and FB damage. Since they ramp up with less minions alive, if dead minions still take damage, that hurts these spells quite a lot.

This ability of PL has been brought up a few times in the past. But with the TSA's ability to revive minions, it is a problem of many facets.

I just would like to see a minion stay dead. That is the program check before the TSA's regeneration kicks in to see if a minion has 0 or less HP. And if it does, there is no regeneration.

Right now, what bugs me most about PL is the PL/TSA thing. If someone wants to use PL to help with HP, fine. But once the HP are gone, they should lose that kill slot. With the TSA, they get the best of both worlds. A constant kill slot AND PL ability.

That happens without the TSA...

PL essentially gives you and extra kill slot, allowing a familiar in the last spot to only have to deal with one round of fire before melee.

wow i stalemated, that was a nice surprise. for me i can understand your point that maybe PL does need some tweaking, though i don;t have nay ideas on how that could be done. until such time however i'm going to keep using it, whilst hoping it doesn't and also thinking of how to use the minion if it does get changed.

Considering the amount of specialization you're working with and lack of boosting enchantments I'm actually surprised more people don't beat Hubbell. Your actual PR in comparison to his is likely just about equal.

yes my strat is very specialized as it is built for melee as well as DM teams, which considering a lot of Hubell's exp is invested into DM is very beneficial to me.

Sut, the problem is that the PL wall takes damage putting him to 0 (hence the way he doesn't absorb all the damage in the first attack) and then at the end the TSA seems to heal him and give him more HP to use in the next round.

I reckon that if you had a fireball the size of your MM, you would overcome the regeneration and kill the PL minion.

"Not only does PL act as a force shield, kicking in before the absorbed-from can die, it knows when to shut off so that the PL sink doesn't die himself!"

Is that how PL works? I thought the PL minion could take enough damage to kill them.

(It's the the problem with TSA, that regens the Dead PL minion to let him carry on using PL next turn. The problem here I think is the TSA return from death.)

"So, even with a front and back attack, I can't get to the PL sink, and even when the PL sink is out of HP, he won't die. He can hide in death -- what a genius tactic! Then, the TSA gives him more HP for the next round, lather, rinse, repeat."

"If a PL sink hits zero, make the sink start taking FULL DAMAGE on the next hit"

I think the problem is the order of Attack. The rear minion takes *just* enough to kill them at zero HP, which makes them innune to additonal damage from any other source, so they always come back.

If your MM went first, it would hit the PL minion first, while they were still alive, and might cause enough negative damage to overcome the TSA regen.

But as it it, PL lets him 'evade' the MM, as he's dead by the time the MM gets to attack.

You can't really let the MM hit a dead minion (I can see why you want to be able to though) as that would cause all sorts of targetting issues.

Just stop the TSA bringing dead minions back to life.

from that example it may not be clear but in the fight my PL minion is the last to die (i checked). the first one to die is Homicidal Maid, followed by Kano-san, with my PL minion being the last to die.

thats how it was when i had a fight that i lost to check. from the stalemate the only way i think i can see it happening is that the MM minion was killed off due to AMF. when i checked it was the last to die with around 150k HP (this is based on the effect of my decay in the last round). as my AMF is constant (0.35 when i checked on MM minion) what i assumed happened for the draw to occur was the following.

- Homicidal Maid was killed off as normal (maybe quicker)
- the effect of MM was higher this fight (due to the random nature)
- this meant that as Kano-san was killed the MM mage must have died due to the effect of AMF
- this would of left me with only a Decay mage and Hubell with one maybe.
- as decay cannot kill and the AMF effect for decay with my understanding cannot kill a minion, as it only does a proportional amount of remaining HP.

this might be wrong but thats how i see the fight going.

now Inept Enchanter probably survives that long as it doesn't suicide itself and so is last remaining. however when it is hit fully by MM mage at the end that mage does more damage then my regen is making it die, as except for that one example i assume that the MM mage as the last minion is the last and only minion remaining.

Sword Girl's Fireball hit Shark [33050], Archer [25918], Tank [42252], SteelyDan [36072], SteelyDan's familiar [33726]
Shark absorbs damage [25918]
Shark absorbs damage [42252]
Shark absorbs damage [36072]
Shark absorbs damage [33726]

Archer hit Sword Girl [38396]
Archer hit Sword Girl [36844]
Archer shot Sword Girl [28051]
Tank's explosive shot hit Sword Girl [21192]
Tank's explosive shot hit Sword Girl [21693]
SteelyDan's familiar's Magic Missile hit Sword Girl [119610]
Sword Girl's Fireball hit Shark [34521], Archer [25265], Tank [40204], SteelyDan [46951], SteelyDan's familiar [44288]
Shark absorbs damage [25265]
Shark absorbs damage [40204]
Shark absorbs damage [4873]
Sword Girl cries "Pwned!"
R.I.P. Shark, SteelyDan

I dont really see whats wrong with PL he takes damage for others then dies :) isn't that how its suppose to work?

The problem occurs when the PL minion has a TSA and is not being hit directly with attacks.

I agree that the best way to fix this is to simply not have the TSA regenerate health when the minion has 0 or less HP.

Nayab, I am aware that is the case.

Ranger, I am asking that, in lieu of simply fixing the TSA the way you mention, special case it so that a minion with PL (heck, and a TSA, if you want) keeps taking damage via the phantom link until he is, in fact, dead. So yes, for one round it could actually be a detriment of sorts to the damage dealer, sort of messing with the order of things. But at least the PL minion would get buried so far into the negs that the TSA regeneration couldn't bring him back. I don't know about you, but I would rather waste a minion attack for one round than have the PL/TSA minion come back ad infinitum.

But spread-fire would not be an issue. Spread-fire already calculates the number of targets at the beginning of the round, so even if the PL minion is at zero HP or below, they still get whacked too, and the damage to the other minions has already been diluted anyway (at least I think that is how it works). In that regard, switching to MM was probably a bad idea for me, but I wanted to give it a try.

Yes, this is all very complicated because no one will make the obvious TSA fix we have all been asking about for a couple years now.

And novice, you seem very fond of mentioning that this tweak or that tweak will hand you over to me on a silver platter, and yet in the same thread, you say all my DM is wasted against so many other teams. Make up your mind. Yes, my DM is wasted against a lot of other teams, but not yours. Not one bit of my DM is wasted against yours because I'm not fizzling you yet, and you are extremely AS-dependent. So, I'll say what I have said before: I SHOULD beat you, silver platter not required. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but you chose your team build and I chose mine. You're not entitled to invincibility.

"so that a minion with PL (heck, and a TSA, if you want) keeps taking damage via the phantom link until he is, in fact, dead."

Sorry mate, could you explain that in a little more detail, as I thought that was how it works currently?

I thought a PL minion could kill themselves by PL damage (although in the back of my mind there lingers something about being unable to absorb a hit that will kill you, but I'm not sure the validity of that any more...)

"I thought a PL minion could kill themselves by PL damage"

If they use a TSA this cannot happen.

It is the mechanics of PL taking 90% of the damage and the PL minion only PLing the HP left.

Complicated it be, but if a PL minion uses a TSA, there is no way it dies from PL damage alone.

Exactly. Ranger has clarified my OP perfectly. A PL/TSA minion gets three nice benefits from the PL/TSA "features":

-- Can only take damage related to how much HP it has left, so it ends up at exactly zero.
-- Zero is still death, so nothing else attacks that PL minion.
-- TSA then brings the minion back even though it is dead.

Mind you, the first feature is probably as it should be, since otherwise I would be belly-aching about how PL minions can leech off more damage than the HP they have. *smile* The second feature is the one I was asking to be special-cased (but wouldn't need to be if the third feature was simply fixed). When all the features are put together, that's when the problem becomes glaring.

Should your DM have an effect... absolutely... does that mean you should win? Hell no. Your offense is pitiful because of that specialization. Were it not for the Nerfbait Familiar you'd have 0 chance. PL is an effective counter to six round ranged, if we nerf PL, we need to nerf ranged attacks.

Dammit it is the TSA... I was so hoping it wasn't. The TSA is most certainly too powerful. I still like TSA+PL as a counter to six round ranged, but I have to admit that HP regen and STR is a bit much for a single armor slot.

In that case, I stand by my OP in this thread. ;)

Stop the TSA regening from the Dead.

Points I think we all agree:

1) TSA is too powerful with BOTH HP regeneration AND strength bonus.

I have stated that the Strength bonus should stay and the regeneration should perhaps to to the EH to make it a viable armor.

2) This regeneration from the dead ability of the TSA needs to be gone. Once a minion is dead, it needs to stay that way. Perhaps the program should check, just before the TSA regeneration comes to see if that minion has <0 hp and if so, no regeneration kicks in. As the regeneration appears to be the last thing of a round, this may not be hard to program.

If I had to pick one of the 2 that is most pressing to fix, I would choose 2.

*less than or equal to zero...dead is dead is dead! ; )

Well one could say 0=unconscious :)

A throwback to the old D&D days.

Complete agree with number 2, with dudemus's caveat. Zero HP has to tell the TSA to stop, too, otherwise the down-to-zero-due-to-PL scenario will still be in play.

One small step to not making the most boring minions in the game the most required.

How about VA? Should that also be able to bring you back from the dead?

*yawns*

First of all, I'm not sure how much of a position you have to be calling other strategies boring, Sutekh. A MM, a Halidon familiar and a whole bunch of DM isn't exactly ground breaking.

And I'm sure we could argue all day about how truly balanced the Halidon familiar is.

Secondly, it'd be nice to see a post about game inbalance not coming from someone who just realized that the supposed "inbalance" is costing them something. Kind of makes it hard to believe you're being even remotely objective.

You know what's really inbalanced? Players with a million more MPR than others complaining that SOMETHING can beat them. Jeesh. Two more years of this whining and the rest of us will just be able to quit because the top 10 players will have effectively eliminated everything allowing a player to fight up.

Hey, get this, a game exists below your MPR level.

*shrugs* No one will respond to this. I'm not in the top 20. But if you won't get the rest, understand this. This may not be balanced, but it effectively allows someone without a huge amount of NW to have some nice stuff going on. Maybe it is too powerful, but hardly as much as people are saying and maybe it's just a result of every other form of fighting up being phased out.

"How about VA? Should that also be able to bring you back from the dead? "

Excellent question.

I can only give my opinion.

Since the TSA is more of a passive regeneration that occurs at the very end of combat while VA/MH/BTH is an active regeneration/leech that occurs during battle (where all attacks occur simultaneously), VA is not really bringing a tank back from the dead as they were never really dead.

Another way of looking at it:

Since attacks occur at the same time, you have a 1M HP tank (full hp) getting hit with a 1.2M FB. At the SAME time he hits for 800k leeching 400k.

Did he ever get below 0 hp? One can say no as he at the same time goes down to 200k. He never really went equal to or below 0 hp during battle.

Now if he was using a TSA and was below 0 then the TSA made him above 0 hp, one can easily say at one time during battle his HP was =< 0.

But this is just my opinion.

"Secondly, it'd be nice to see a post about game inbalance not coming from someone who just realized that the supposed "inbalance" is costing them something. Kind of makes it hard to believe you're being even remotely objective. "

Sut never "just" realized this was occurring.

Many people have complained about this feature of the TSA/PL axis.

The balance of the HF is something to be discussed in another thread.

The TSA/PL issue has nothing to do with the HF. Sut just stated what is happening with is character who uses the HF.

It could and does happen with mine using a HF AND archer. It does happen to people using just archers or mages.

And I very seriously doubt Sut would be complaining about someone beating him IF it was a clean victory. Not something that has been broken this way for years.

I can reference the exbow if you want. Something so obviously wrong and broken but not addressed for years.

You can relax, Deadsoul. I'm already on to Plan B, and it doesn't involve any more whining. *smile*

And for the record, I never said any other overall strategy was good, bad, unique, or boring. I said PL _minions_ are boring. If you disagree with that, fine. But there is every reason to believe PL minions are exceedingly dull, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think it's a boring choice, as it will make *any* strategy (ok, go go, time to proove me wrong and find one it doesn't! :P ) of 3 or less minons better.

No brainer, just add another minionn to your team with HP, PL and a TSA and you'll live longer.

There's no thought or strategy to it, just add it to your single minion and see yourself improve drastically.

Whatever you are.

(Caveat: I don't care that GA doesn't fire on PLed damage, GA is teh suxxor!)

Just like you say Wall_Minions are boring.
They are all a viable strategies, just cause you choose not to use them does not make them any more boring than any other strategy in the game.

I would say a Wall minion is certainly more "boring" than a tank.

With a tank you have the option of many weapons both missile and melee.

A wall basically uses the same gear as any other wall minion.

However, just because they are boring does not mean they are not as you state, very effective minions.

But, as the post suggests, the PL/TSA/HP minion with its ability to constantly resurrect from the dead, has a flaw that needs to finally be addressed.

Unless of course, this flaw is actually a feature designed by Jon for the game.

If that is the case, then perhaps we need to move on and find other ways of dealing with this feature.

I had thought that this was stated to be a feature before. But in any case I don't really see what the problem is with it so much. It makes an interesting catch in the game that you have to watch out for or else it can come around to bite you. For one thing I know that the SoD especially is good at taking care of PL/TSA because often the PL absorbs the damage from the main hit then gets killed off from the splash or the second hit that round. If you are only using spread fire of FB or CoC you also wont run into much trouble because as soon as it runs out of hp it cant hide in death unless you are making him PL from some other type of attack first.

You just have to work those catches into your strat. For instance with Sut, if that PL minion is in the back if your MM fires first you will kill it off. Things like the TSA regenerating back to life make it important to choose what order you are going to make your attacks.

I reckon the SIMPLEST method to fix this would be this:

Make the regen happen BEFORE damage in a round, means you can still have awesome armor but you can't have a PL minion that never dies.

Furthermore, GL, there's no real foil to a PL minion. Let's look at the other types of minions I could add to a team:

AMF Enchanter: Useless against tanks.
EC Enchanter: Useless against mages
DE enchanter: Foiled by DM
DM enchanter: Foiled by opponent not using DEs
Tank: Could be good, but will likely be too small/diluted to be effective without large NW (then there's ENC to deal with)
Mage: Could be good, but will likely be too small and will be eaten up by AMF.

Now, compare that to a PL/TSA sink:

Will only make you team live longer, will possibly negate the first blow from a specialty exbow, will resurrect, and with the extra strength could even be an effective tank.

And of course PL isn't boring just because I say so. Don't be absurd. I never said any such thing. IN MY OPINION, PL minions meet the litmus test of "meh" because they are defensive, AND they are an obvious choice compared to other minion types (as illustrated above). I'm not saying the other minion types can't be made to work, and when they DO work, I have great respect for the tacticians behind that.

Actually PL has one of the greatest flaws in the game... it's damage absorbed doesn't return GA damage. With the usefulness of GA, that's quite a flaw...

That's a good point, and I will fully admit not thinking of that (since GA is usually not something I worry about...)

However, one can use PL very effectively without depending on any DEs anyway. Just look at Failure. He does quite well with PL and no DEs. I've always thought Failure was a damn fine team...

I know one example doesn't detract much from your excellent point, but it shows it can be done...

*cough*(Caveat: I don't care that GA doesn't fire on PLed damage, GA is teh suxxor!)*cough*

;)

Now that I think about it, Failure is the perfect example of a team I shouldn't stand a CHANCE at beating. But with switching back to MM, I can, now.

That's sort of crazy. My DM is worthless against him, and none of his trained experience is useless against me. Not sure if it is the Evasion or what, but if I could put my finger on it, I'd probably whine about it just as much as PL/TSA. *smile*

One huge reason you beat him is the size of your tattoo.

It is about double his.

And a 4.5M RBF at the top levels, is a hard way to win.

Basically you HF is just sitting there with your high evasion immune while plugging away at his tank.

When melee starts, his RBF does pitiful damage to you, letting you live longer, at least enough to beat him.

That's probably it, then...tattoos have been a low-level raspberry seed in my wisdom tooth since Jan. 1, 2005, since they really do make a difference, and they are like legacy artifacts...

100%+3%*50=250% thats for 50 rounds... How often does that happen?

The TSA was changed to address this a long time ago. Previously, the TSA would continually regen a minion once it was dead round after round, and the minion could possibly spring to life 4 rounds after dying.

Now, it gets the regen in the same round it dies. It doesn't get any more after that. I see nothing wrong with that, either, given the "instant" nature of a round in CB.

Further, the fact that it's hard to kill a PL minion that you can't hit is, frankly, a stupid thing to complain about. The PL minion is doing things in the battle just like any other minion that's got protective minions around him.

Every form of attack has a specific way of hitting: front, back, invisibility-bypassed, spread-fire, etc. Hiding a PL minion is just one possible scenario that fireball, COC, and a SOD counter very well. If your attack isn't one that can hit every possible scenario, I find that to be a very good thing, and I see no compelling reason to change anything.

While I do not like what you posted, thanks for the post and your insight.

So, for the wiki, PL + TSA = one extra kill slot for ranged attacks against bows and mm? does that sound correct?

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, the revive feature only applies if you deal just enough damage to get someone between 0% and -3% hp.

I am surprised this is coming up as much as it is. This isn't a problem that can't be fixed with a mediocre damage boost.

NS, the problme is that by virute of PL, you will 'suicide' yourslef to zro HP, and avoid any sort of retaliation that manages to reach your for the rest of the round.

Giving you full TSA regen to start next round with.

Turn after turn after turn after turn. With no way to stopping it.

No EO, no ED, no PL targetting UberBow.

There needs to be *something*, *anything* for us to do to allow us to counter this.

Use FB, SoD, CoC... bows don't need any help.

GL,

NS stated other methods to use with the only choices being FB, CoC or a SoD. Other than directly attacking the PL minion itself.

3/4ths,

The problem is not directly dealing damage to the PL minion. It is when the PL minion uses PL to give more hp to another minion. It takes PL damage to go just below 0 hp, then the regeneration kicks in and revives.

The problem I have is that the PL minion then gets double duty. Using PL to give hp AND stays a kill slot for those of us without a spread attack.

And please stop this "bows are uber powerful all knowing great weapons". Just stop as it is not true. GA is the perfect foil for large ELB users.

But if the TSA regeneration is done as all other things in a battle round, at the same time, then perhaps something about the nature/effect of PL needs to be looked at.

and what else? What happens when Sut grows himself a ToA Archer... what then?

GA isn't enough to excuse the raw power of six round ranged and 2m+ quint hits. Nothing in game can deal with that at this point.

A specialized usage of PL and the TSA allows for the possibility of making it all the way to melee (assuming you can survive one or two hits for 2m), and you want that removed? I'm not standing idle on that one.

It is not a specialized usage.

It is what everyone does using the same items and skill.

If you want a PL minion to give its hp to another minion great. But do not give it the added ability to act as a kill slot also.

GA seems to work very well vs almost all characters with perhaps the exception of Sut. I call that a great foil for bow users. Especially since we have to use our skill slot for archery. Something no other tank in the entire game has to do to use their weapon properly.

I agree with both Ranger and Novice. ;)

On Rangers side, the PL/TSA isn't specialised, it just is. One of the reasons it's up ther in mine (and Sute's!) boring list.

On Novices side, Ranged is, and I feel always, has been too good in CB. Due to the nature of it going first, it's far more 'powerful' than Melee.

As for FB/CoC/SoD, these are generic damage dealers. We need something specifically anti PL (or PL/TSA as you really don't get one without the other).

Killing the whle team is your overall goal, it's either the counter ot everything, or not really a counter at all. ;)

We need a trade off, a chioce. Like running an EO that will Reduce PL absorb (or stop TSA regen). Maybe one that even has it's own drawbacks, like DM, maybe it lowers skills on your own team (or something).

And active choice to counter the /yawn of a PL minion that sits in the middle of the team, always doing its thing without a way of stopping it.

we need a supporter item that steals others t s a regen! or boosts a team every time the opposing teams gets rezzed. or a bottomless tankard of beer!

"Further, the fact that it's hard to kill a PL minion that you can't hit is, frankly, a stupid thing to complain about. The PL minion is doing things in the battle just like any other minion that's got protective minions around him."

Sorry my complaint is "stupid", NS, and thanks for such a wonderful bedside manner! Now I know why I dump so much cash into this game via supporter items and namings! Such a pleasant staff! You're an absolute delight!

Especially since you are 100% incorrect. It's a very, very, very reasonable thing to complain about, because this game is based on choice, and living with those choices. Example: If I choose a mage with any DD spell other than Decay, that mage can die from AMF backlash. In the same way, if I have a PL sink, I have chosen, _chosen_, CHOSEN to have that minion lose life in return for protecting the life of other minions (at a discount, no less!) But lo! With the TSA, the choice becomes not a choice. I can choose to benefit from a discounted life drain, I can focus all damage taken upon one minion, and I have to sacrifice _nothing_ in return.

Other than Artemis's solid comment on PL not allowing GA to help your team as much, there is no downside or foil to PL other than the same downside everything has -- training it and using up a skill slot. Yes, people are fond of talking about spread-fire, but even that doesn't really kill a PL team any faster because of PL's force-field nature. A team with a PL sink will last just as long because the PL minion will drain off the damage at a discounted rate, and then the other minions will die as they would have anyway. How is spread-fire so much more effective, other than the edge case of possible dealing enough damage to bury a PL minion beyond TSA regeneration?

No, my complaint is not stupid. Is it a solid observation of inconsistent behavior in the game. Something, at this point, that appears to reviled at worst and ignored at best.

There actually is one anti-PL item in the game.

The MoD.

However, being melee based, it has little love.

It is just too hard to be a melee based tank in CB. With DM being so much better a choice than AMF, with a large part due to the NSC, why bother trying to live long 6 rounds before you can attack.

Now people can say you can have both a melee and missile weapon but that is mostly poppycock. Having 2 middle NW weapons vs 1 high NW weapon is not as good.

I tried to use a 60M ELS, JW tried a 72M MH, both with bows and found it was far far better to concentrate on one damage type.

With the MgS being neutered about a year ago, and the NSC effectively making AMF near worthless, it is hard to survive long enough to use your MoD.

The only character types that typcially can are RBF character, but they are very infrequently tanks.

That is true... So PL does have two distinct disadvantages:

-- Makes GA sort of moot
-- Has a foil in the MoD (whether it manifests itself as all that useful is another issue...it still meets my plea for things that help foil PL, and I keep forgetting about that... *smile*)

Any other downsides to PL (again, other than simply training it, as that is an implicit downside to anything in the game)? I'm sincerely interested.

I would like to point out 1 more counter to PL. This is one I ran into a LOT when playing with a large PL wall. GA. When you use a PL wall your damage dealing minion suffers against GA because he lacks that additional hp he could have had from spreading it to the PL wall.

I think perhaps people are getting confused on the problem Sut and I have with the current PL/TSA. I have no problem with PL or even the TSA, but when you combine them both, one gets a minion that gives hp to another AND is a kill slot. The best of both worlds.

Kill slots are a very valuable tool in CB. And is part of the great debate with respect to single minion vs multiple minions.

With a single minion one gets to concentrate xp and have a stronger minion. However, one gives up kill slots. Multi minion characters get weaker minions but multiple kill slots.

Which is better? That is one of CB's great debates.

However, PL/TSA give you both a stronger minion, via more transferrable HP AND a kill slot. The best of both worlds.

If you want a multi minion team using PL, great. Just be prepared to sacrifice a kill slot to get it.

That is my argument and I am sticking by it!!!

With that, I will let novice and others get in any last words. :)

"AND is a kill slot."

Don't state something that is true sometimes, as being true all the time.

Art,

It is true 100% of the time if you do not have the ability to do separate damage to the PL minion directly.

Via directly attacking it or using Ranged of Effect attacks.

Perhaps I should have clarified my statement.

But there are ways around it, as NS stated using RoE effects.

As an aside: And this is yet another reason the SoD is much better than the ELB or MSB.

I would love to see a missile salvage yard. Please, pretty please NS and Jon :) With a cherry on top :)

"-- Has a foil in the MoD (whether it manifests itself as all that useful is another issue..."

A decent-sized MoD can easily beat my team. I don't think it's the game's fault that one of the main ways to combat PL is not really in use. Perhaps people should focus more on defense (much to Sut's dismay :P) instead of getting $500 quadrillion dollar bows to win ASAP?

Other than that, one can't beat everybody. One SHOULDN'T be able to beat everybody. Since it doesn't seem like NS is going to 'fix' this, if you're not using what's available to combat a certain strategy...

The SoD is ranged and combats PL very well, and you've got the MoD for melee.

"GA isn't enough to excuse the raw power of six round ranged and 2m+ quint hits. Nothing in game can deal with that at this point"

Not to be captain obvious, but my Exbow wall cuts Ranger's ranged damage down quite a bit. 1 hit neuters his Hal, and 3 hits take his tank down to about 300-400k a hit... Considering I'm only working with 500k STR that's pretty huge.

assuming he's not wearing dbs (which he is)

In other words for everyone that is tuned in and commenting. This is ALL a matter of Strategy regardless of how boring it may be. Strategy is strategy. NS spoke out and said this is the way it was made to function, it was changed from something else. Bottom line I believe someone said it best:

But, as the post suggests, the PL/TSA/HP minion with its ability to constantly resurrect from the dead, has a flaw that needs to finally be addressed.

Unless of course, this flaw is actually a feature designed by Jon for the game.

If that is the case, then perhaps we need to move on and find other ways of dealing with this feature.


Time to go another way no?

jon is the one who decides balance issues i though and nightstrike was a bug fixer?

i would say that since he uses the strategy in question we still need to get the jon's opinion before we write it off as working as intended.

furthermore, evasion was working as intended right up until it was changed, no?

"jon is the one who decides balance issues i though and nightstrike was a bug fixer?"

First dudemus he does more than just bug fixing, NS has done quite a few changes for the betterment of the game. Second that comment was just a bit rude as he is also a part OWNER of this game. We don't always see eye to eye on things but I do respect his position and authority in this game it might behoove you to do the same.

"i would say that since he uses the strategy in question we still need to get the jon's opinion before we write it off as working as intended."

Really dudemus? Seems to me he has helped with quite a few changes that seem to go against his strategy.

"furthermore, evasion was working as intended right up until it was changed, no? "

Evasion was changed because it was decided to be so dudemus and is only one example out of how many changes that was spur of the moment seemingly unneeded ones because they worked as described?

I will have to say I am likely the etiology of the "NS plays and Jon does the balancing".

I will say it again: NS is not doing things in CB to further his strategy or game play. He is trying to do things to help CB as a whole. A lot of things in conjunction with Jon. I have chatted with him a lot about this and sincerely believe him to be working to make CB more enjoyable for more people.

If he posts like he did in this thread about something being a desired effect, I believe him.

Let's give NS time to do things that need to be done in CB and take him at his word that things are intended when he posts.

At least we are now getting some developers posting their thoughts in these threads. I would hate to go back to the old days where we were just posting without any knowledge of their thoughts/ideas.

As far as the PL/TSA regeneration, that case is closed. It is a desired effect.

If we do not like this effect, perhaps we can try to convice Jon and/or NS that it is overpowered and attempt to take it from that angle.

I officially ban everyone in the top 20 MPR statistic from balance discussions. Let the real discussions commence!

=P

30th in MPR... I am soo in!

22nd in MPR.

I can post about balance!!!!

I stand by what I said. My problem isn't with the individual, just with the ridiculous MPRs and how they affect the game and the player's view of them game ^_^

My new goal is to reach 21st highest MPR! High MPR, and I could still be involved in the discussions, yay!

"First dudemus he does more than just bug fixing, NS has done quite a few changes for the betterment of the game. Second that comment was just a bit rude as he is also a part OWNER of this game. We don't always see eye to eye on things but I do respect his position and authority in this game it might behoove you to do the same."

i was going off of a statement that ns made in a thread. i tried to find it quickly but will have to link it later. i could be wrong but i am pretty sure that is what he stated himself.

as for the other issue, i was not saying that he wouldn't change it because he used it but more that he can give an opinion as a dev or as a player. i took the post in this thread as the latter.

if he is truly not the one that decides balance issues, then you cannot claim to have the final authority and thus close off any further discussion, not that this really works in cbland anyways.

i have stated in another thread that i do trust nightstrike to put what is best for the game before what is best for his team and that still holds true. i would just like some clarification on whether the post in this thread was an opinion as a player or if it is a final word of the dev in charge of balance issues as i do think this needs clarification.

=) I just crawled into the top 100! #97 :P

I was pretty sure the Dead/Back to life via TSA Regen was fixed. I have never seen my guy come back to life after being killed.

And NS confirmed that was the change that was done on it. So Sut, if you can post the previous rounds, then please do so where you show the PL minion dying, then coming back to life. That might be a bug imho.

if i understand, ns said the previous fix was for the minion resurrecting in latter rounds. it is still possible, and even planned, for the minion to come back in the same round he died.

But he isn't actually dead until the very end of the round when it says R.I.P. He is just dying. As long as the TSA brings him back before the R.I.P. then it is fine in my opinion and this is exactly what it does. Just because they have 0 or negative HP does not mean that they are dead. When your minion gets killed from the other teams attack and then goes on to hit should he not get to because he is already dead? Or say you have FB in melee and you just killed the minion behind the FB mage with it does that minion now not get to do anything this round because he is already dead? In both of these cases the dead minion is still going to attack this means that he isn't actually dead yet.

i think it is an order of events issue if i understand it correctly at all. as of now the minion takes damage down to zero, the attacker moves on to another minion and at the end of the round the regen kicks in and resurrects the minion.

if the regen happened first, then the damage dealer would likely do enough damage to outright kill it and it would die that round. if this is the case, then i think that it should be changed as something as simple as order of events should not be a method of cheating death.

if i have misunderstood the issue and it is not this way then please correct me.

I think maybe a solution as proposed above would be to move the TSA regeneration to the start of the round instead of the end.

Then TSA users would effectively lose the first round of regeneration in every fight as they would have full health. That seems like an overcorrection.

Bah, ignore me. My point was obviously flawed.

Actually that is a valid point.

First round if you take damage you would lose that regeneration you would get.

However, moving the regeneration to the beginning could stop this feature of hiding in death.

allow the first round and only the first round to go higher than base then.

hiding in death is the name that was given to the previously fixed issue...

The only real complaint now is that in certain circumstances a minion can PL it's hp away and still act as a kill slot. It's not hiding in death, it's just not dying when you think it should.

can it not be attacked further due to the system thinking it is dead only to come back with the regen? i would still call that hiding in death.

it could be attacked and damaged, just not by PL which stops at 0...

So if Sut were to switch back to FB this would not be a problem

and pl stops at zero because it thinks the minion is dead?

PL stops because it can't absorb more HP than the minion has... it's how PL is designed. As NS has stated, everything in CB happens "at the same time" and the TSA fires before the minion dies (but after PL has taken the minion to 0). There is no death, just instantaneous healing.

if it truly all happened at once, then it wouldn't be an issue as the minion could take more damage since the regen kicked in simultaneously and it would die.

it is not all happening at the same time though, the regen is happening after the damage is applied.

ie. if a minion has 1,000,000 hp and it takes 1,500,000 damage and had a regen of 3 percent. it would all happen at once and the minion with 1,030,000 hit points would die, no?

since it is not all happening at once, changing the order would make more sense or truly make it all happen at once.

As dudemus stated in a post above, it is not happening at the same time.

The PL minion, if things happened all at the same time, should regenerate HP during battle and use those HP to effect more PL.

But this is NOT happening as the PL minion regenerates at the END of the round and then pops back up from the dead to have a new set of hp to PL.

So when I hit with my ELB and do 1M damage to your front minion, your PL minion should absorb all it can and die in the process, even with the TSA regeneration.

But it is absorbing what it currently can, then get 3% more, reviving that round to absorb a bit more next round. And so on, eventually giving an extra kill slot. Which is invaluable in CB.

So the PL/TSA minion, under the current system, gets the HP/PL additional hp AND an extra kill slot. Unless one is forced to use a ranged attack, which not everyone, esp single minions can use.

/me goes to look for other ways he could change of order of things happening to benefit himself...

Ooo ooo I'd like to move melee before ranged so the massive PR/NW investment I've got isn't useless against 95% of the teams in game!

Apparently, FB is useless Novice even though it would stop the healing when the minion runs out of HP.

At least that's the 'word on the street'.

no one ever claimed that melee and ranged happened simultaneously though or used that as justification for a broken mechanic. ; )

i feel that va has to work this way due to the fact that it regens based on damage dealt. when tsa was implemented it was piggy-backed on that mechanic when it really needed its own.

Actually novice,

Contrary to what you suggest, not so subtly, this change would hurt me vs at least 2 possible 4 characters. My TSA helps me beat them with my regeneration. Losing 1 round and 330k regeneration would cause a lot of problems with these characters.

However, for logical gameplay and balance, this is a suggestion that I feel would be beneficial for the logic of the game. And for balance.

The PL/TSA axis of damage reduction AND kill slot is too powerful.

As to your idea of moving missile and melee, words cannnot state how I feel about that comparison.

I don't get what you mean about kill slot. If it is only a kill slot after all your damage dealers are dead then its not important at all because the fight is already over. PL walls are always going to be killed after the damage dealer if you are hitting 1 minion at a time unless they have put it in a weird position.

In the case of Dagobah v. Sut, Vectoidz, or Heroes the pl minion comes after one damage dealer but before the familiar (which has been placed in the back). In round 1 the pl minion absorbs soemwhere around 6m damage, the second round the first minion dies, then a minion a round until thew sixth round where the familiar (and it's massive dbs) manage sometimes to live into the first round of melee. This is the problem that Sut and Ranger are trying to solve in the forums.

Nem,

Normally, if the PL minion does not have a TSA, it will use its PL and die from the PL damage. Losing a kill slot. Right now, with the TSA, the PL minion regenerates just enough hp to revive and the character regains that kill slot.

A kill slot is a minion that is there to absorb a round of direct attacks. Some people have their damage dealer in front, others have it in back with a wall type minion in front backed up by HP from the PL/TSA minion.

Vs some people that kill slot delays you getting to their main damage dealer for a round, which can make all the difference in the outcome of the battle.

Basically as novice states.

Vect, myself and Hubbell have to spend a round killing the PL minion and its 30k hp it regenerates via the TSA at the END of the round while reviving from the dead.

That extra round is the difference in a lot of our battles.

But not just vs novice it matters. Anyone not using a SoD or FB/CoC can face the same problem.

If the TSA regeneration occurs at the same time as all the attacks, then that HP it regenerates should be available THAT round for PL and if the PL minion takes enough PL damage, should it not die.

It seems the current system is double dipping. That is getting all the benefits of PL and its extra hp to a wall or other minion AND getting the benefit of a kill slot.

I look at it this way, even with this you've still got a round for every minion on a 4 + 1 familiar team. If you can't get the job done that's too bad.

This is funny.


All this over a single round of combat that some players think shouldn't exist and others (including the devs, apparently) think should?

This isn't even about you thinking something is too powerful. It's about a game mechanic you just don't like. Get over it. I don't like VA teams, but I don't make a thread trying to prove it's too powerful so I can start beating those VA teams.

I understand it's not quite the same here, but jeesh. Not near enough objectivity here (Including from me! I came in, thought the entire conversation was silly and never bothered to form a -real- opinion on the PL thing. Too busy being amazed at how egotistical and self centered some of these posts have been.)

I never thought trying to get proper game mechanics and an understanding of how things occur as funny.

I guess we have different styles of humor.

And I would love to know how many battles are decided by 1 round.

But if you have nothing more to add to the conversation than your own commentary, best stay out of the thread entirely.

I'll stay out of any thread I want to! Which is most of them....


This one has become far too full of itself. This is NOT a discussion about game balance, it's a discussion of a bunch of whiners who can't stand having more than 4 people being able to beat them. As always, there's always a reason why the people they lose to shouldn't be.


Maybe this one is worse than the others, but I've seen far too many of these same players switch to the Flavor of the month for me to think they're morally against such overpowered things.

Indeed, I'm POSITIVE that any of the players currently complaining about this would be USING it if it was reasonably possible/beneficial.

I'm lighting the stage on fire. You all can take a short break from grand standing now. /oreosandjuice

I disagree with at least one part of that, Sut isn't the sort to use something he considers boring unless he's forced to (clans).

Indeed,

Sut had the chance to use a PL/TSA/HP minion but choose to use heavy DM instead.

And I can use a PL/TSA/HP minion but choose the DM route myself.

This statement you make is wrong: "Indeed, I'm POSITIVE that any of the players currently complaining about this would be USING it if it was reasonably possible/beneficial. "

Please do not assume people are trying to get a change made to benefit them. There are plenty of instances where myself or Sut or novice has asked for a change that would be detrimental to our character.

I've stayed out of this thread but this takes the cake:

"Please do not assume people are trying to get a change made to benefit them. There are plenty of instances where myself or Sut or novice has asked for a change that would be detrimental to our character."

Really Ranger? No one has ever tried in changing the game to benefit them? Well not like many succeed but a few did. And this made me go lol.

I have not stated people have not tried in the past to get a change to benefit them. You must be misreading my post.

But if you would read the posts above that states: "Indeed, I'm POSITIVE that any of the players currently complaining about this would be USING it if it was reasonably possible/beneficial." you should understand my post and my statement.

Back at ya with the LOL :)

Even if we take half the number of rounds as average we will still see that the tsa+pl only boosts the hp of the minion to 100%+3%*25=175% this is not impressive at all considering it is not boostable though any other means... Not to mention i suspect that most battles end way before 25 rounds

Lost,

This is nothing to do with the amount of regeneration the TSA gives.

No but it is a valid point of just how specific this issue is. If we're down to complaining about specific fights not going the way certain people think they should I see that as a pretty good sign.

I declare CB balanced!

First off, I never said clans were boring. Clans are stupid. This is fact, and everyone actually knows it.

Second, if you think Ranger has never been burned by a change he asked for, SAY WHAT? You just aren't trying very hard. Sutekh said that. Sutekh.

And no, lamenting over the actual TSA regeneration amount does not have anything to do with this thread. Sorry.

But on that matter, shouldn't the total be 45/44 rounds and not 25? And that's not including the 10% reduction to all PLed damage, which would increase (love wowisms!) Effective Health more. ;)

But the amount absorbed isn't the issue.

Hiding in death is.

And if the strategic answer to hiding in death is 'use FB/CoC/SoD', I'll remember this the next time someone has a balance problem. As the answer is obviously just kill your opponent.

So dramatic, GL!

I've not seen this side of you! Loving it!

Analogous to when evasion was uber powerful.

The correct answer was just use magic?

I would think this goes along the lines of why new minions are so costly and there is not a 0 xp minion option for a nominal cost.

Kill slots are one of the most powerful things in all of CB. They can be more valuable than a 100M NW elb. They can do wonders with the right strategy. So if a high MPR character wants one, s/he has to pay a lot to get it.

I personally hired the lower cost minion for an extra kill slot as well as a tattoo holder. But the kill slot wins the day for me vs at least 4 characters.

This PL/TSA feature is not in line, IMO, with the idea of giving away your HP and being a kill slot.

Again, if the regeneration was at the same time, like NS stated, why does that minion revive instead of using that HP regenerated THAT round for more PL?

At this point I'd like to see the TSA deleted, and ranged moved back down to 4 rounds. I think that would be just about "fair".

*Sigh and does a Mega Facepalm*

So what we are really down to is I don't like this because I have to specialize my strategy and it is "Boring". Um that is CB all over Ladies and Gentleman, no ONE strategy is to be the UBER Strategy and beat all others. Throwing a hiccup into the mix is honestly just what CB has always needed anyway. If you want a win on your terms you have come to the wrong place, wins happen on the terms of what Jon/NS have dictated get over it. This is not a balance issue it is a "I do not want to have to Specialize my Strategy that way Whinning Fest."

Well if that is it then well I would say too bad. Look even if there is a Change it will more than likely be in a way that you don't 100% agree with anyway. Look at the ExBow, I have not heard one person say I 100% agree it was the right thing to do. What I have heard is it is a step in the right direction it still needs work. Whatever you CANNOT have your cake and eat it too that is the name of the game in a Strategy based game in the first place.

Especially when even the Owners have said:

1.This is the way it was designed to be and
2.This is a Game where it has soft counters.

The answers have been given what part is not understood here?

As a side note I had to read back and dudemus I have noticed that you only answered me but others had a chance to state the same thing I did just with more words candy coated why not quote them as well? Straight out of the box I will say this to you: What you said sounded exactly how I answered. If you did not like what I said then maybe you should Clarify what you say a bit better. So that EVERYONE can understand your meaning without misconception. Once again remember I was not the only one to say something along those lines just the first.

Can't we all just.... Get along? I have cookies! AND BISCUITS. And man... These biscuits... They are something else.


(No, they're still biscuits. I just meant that they're really tasty)

Ranger It actually has everything to do with tsa regen because your battery is at max 250% considering 50 rounds...
And unless im mistaken jon did say he would more multi minion teams :) probably should do something about the impossible cost for buying minions lol

Lost,

Your not getting Sut and my point.

I could not care if the regeneration was 10% per round.

It would not change the problem of the PL/TSA minion reviving in the round they should die due to PL damage. And the next and next until you directly attack them or use FB/CoC.

But I do understand people's point about having to use a proper strategy to deal with it.

But according to NS, the TSA's regeneration is occurring at the same time as the battle. So why does not the PL/TSA minion use the TSA regenerated hps for that round. Instead of using it on the subsequent round.

When it causes the PL minion to revive and become a "free" extra kill slot.

This is per NS: 'Now, it gets the regen in the same round it dies. It doesn't get any more after that. I see nothing wrong with that, either, given the "instant" nature of a round in CB. '

So if it's balanced as it is now.. And you want to change the mechanic of how the TSA works with PL for flavor. Then does the TSA %age also needs to be boosted to keep it balanced? Just asking, genuinely curious about your opinion.

Also, isn't the game based around countering? You fight DM characters if you have no EDs, AMF characters if you're a tank, etc. So what's the problem with PL having four different counters? FB, CoC, MoD, and SoD

See, I do not believe it is balanced as it is now.

And neither does Sut.

That is our point.

If it truly works at the same time as the battle occurs, great.

Have the HP from the TSA work during the battle and have more HP during that round available for PL usage. But allow the PL minion to die, and not get resurrected if you do enough damage overwhelm the PL ability.

The developers fixed the hiding in death for multiple rounds. Now finish the fix and do it for the round of the actual regeneration.

As it looks to me now, the regeneration is occurring after the battle is over, all the damages are taken and all spells/attacks occur.

As dude stated in an earlier post, if you have multiple minions attacking, if the PL minion would normally be next attacked but "dies" that round, you move on to the next minion. And the following round, viola, the PL minion comes back to battle.

So just for clarity, you want this change because?

It's not imbalance... it's not overly powerful against the majority of chars or setups in game. It's a matter of personal desire to have an easier time with specific chars. While it may seem unfair to you to have the regen take place when it does. I happen to find it unfair that you get more rounds than I have minions in which to kill my team, I'd like that changed as well.

You know what we should do instead? Have a new damage type called poison that works just like the TSA regen except opposite and goes at the same time. Then everyone should be happy.

Nem, that's an idea! It would have to be a strategic trade off somehow, and not linked to hitting the PL minion (as you'd either kill it anyway without Poison, or it would be hiding in death already and not targetable).

Ranger;

"Analogous to when evasion was uber powerful.

The correct answer was just use magic?"

IIRC, I also gave MC, GoM (with short bladed Weapons) and UC (with it's naturally high PTH) as other options apart from just kill with Magic. ;) Then there was always the ToA. Ah many choices and options!

I will also point out that kill slots while still somewhat useful now this is far from their golden age. 4 rounds versus 6 rounds of ranged makes quite the difference. I think this is also why FB seemed to have lost some of it's pizzazz.