The HaL (in General)


Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 7:10 AM EDT

!!!!Confirmed part!!!!
The HaL receives an ELB equal to the NW of the tattoo.

All values taken from the wiki
The HaL gets +259 PTH for a lvl of 8,500,000

A quick calculation for that 8,500,000 lvl tattoo and the tattoo has an NW of roughly $154,190,000

If we take a look at the upgrade curve of the ELB's pth then we find +219 PTH is roughly $107,069,420
We still have 47 mil to play with.

If we take a look at db's which has roughly the same upgrade curve as an elb's PTH the next know value is +245 $143,246,546

Ok so we have roughly 11mil to play with and please note we still need 14 points to get to +259.

Now the wiki states the following: Elven Long Bow (ELB) damage modifier, and Plus-to-Hit (PTH) values, increase with the level of the HF.

This means that not the HP/DX/STR or archery increase the Lvl of the hal.

Back to the subject, now I don't know how the HaL's splits its nw between the X and the PTH, but with so much nw pumped into the PTH side that would leave us with very little NW on the X side does it?

!!!!!Unconfirmed part!!!!!

Unless the HaL double dips and gets the same amount of NW on the x side meaning a tattoo of that lvl would get an x of 19,773
154,190,000/7,798 = 19,773
or even if it would only receive half the nw it would still get an x of 9887


Now what other tattoo does this double dipping?

QBJohnnywas September 4 2009 7:17 AM EDT

Can I have a hal familiar that comes equipped with a mageseeker please?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2009 7:17 AM EDT

You, sir, have obviously never experienced the raw, unabridged power that is a ToE.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 4 2009 7:19 AM EDT

Who cares how much "net worth" it has? If there was a familiar that trained 100% HP and had five times its NW in a Helm of Durin, would you label that as overpowered too? The only thing you should be concerned with when trying to balance the Hal is its damage output and survivability capabilities compared to those of other familiars.

[Jedi] Danludar September 4 2009 7:28 AM EDT

Alright not meaning to offend anyone here but, I see a billion complaining posts a day. Yes I could see how this is Overpowered. In the same sense if the tattoo didn't have NW it'd become obsolete and we'd have a nice little RoBF/USD blender going on.

Its a nice alternative to not spending tons of money upgrading your weapon. The downfall you can't decide how you train the stats. An Archer needs NW, it needs a large weapon.

A tattoo at 8.5 million lvl is HUGE! That is a top 10 if not 20 tattoo. So a bow at 154mil NW is ALRIGHT, not even huge. Now if we could make it have the top 2 ELB NWs that'd be a little more ridiculous. Also you can't decide x or +, now I'm gonna get flamed for that comment I know, but it's true. Look at Zenai's bow, x30000 +0. Also you can't equip a tattoo with the Hal to boost it's stats further such as a ToA or ToE or RoE.

Anyways I'm ranting, I guess I'd like to see a post about something going right for once. These posts just make people wanna quit.

QBJohnnywas September 4 2009 7:28 AM EDT

I know, it's not like me to stick up for something Ranger is using, but I actually don't think the Hal is that OP.

It's biggest strength is it's PTH, which could be toned down for sure, but on a damage level:

Hal shot Johnny Was [658157]
Hal shot Johnny Was [629057]
Hal shot Johnny Was [552884]
Hal hit Johnny Was [713069]


That's the biggest Hal in the game. That (PTH Quad strike aside) is pretty low really. Compare that to the damage done by the big 'real' ELBs and you'll see a huge difference.

Of course the PTH wouldn't be so much of an issue if we brought back evasion from the dead...lol....

[Jedi] Danludar September 4 2009 7:34 AM EDT

I'm going to add onto johnny here

Ranger's tank hit for I believe it's around 1.5 mil quad shots. Now thats 6mil damage a round. His hal is hitting for we'll say 650k average a shot. A quad shot comes out to 2.6mil. So my alternative tank is actually a lot weaker than my real tank.

I just have a sneaking suspicion that the reason hals cost so much is look how many there are out there compared to other tattoos. Yes a lot of people want one because its a practically free tank minus the tattoo, junction, and whatever you junction.

Demigod September 4 2009 7:44 AM EDT

Though I don't really want to jump in on this, I will chunk in my 2 cents that the PTH is what I think needs to be lowered on the Hals.

QBRanger September 4 2009 8:13 AM EDT

And how would one compare this to the "unique" damage ability of the RBF?

With its evasion and magic resistance added as well? I call that triple dipping.

We all know tanks need NW vs mages.

So to try to compare the HF vs the SF or FF in this manner is very myopic.

Vs high level evasions and Jiggy's my "OP" HF frequently misses or gets 1 hit.

Vs JS and his tank, my HF misses more than it hits.

All the time any DD familiar automatically hits.

Apples vs oranges.

QBJohnnywas September 4 2009 8:18 AM EDT

The real question we should be asking is not is the Hal/RBF OP? We should be asking why are the other tattoos not seen as equal to them. Why for instance is the FF not used more? Why are the other tattoos UNDERpowered?

QBRanger September 4 2009 8:22 AM EDT

I already addressed that point in this thread:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002rYL

QBRanger September 4 2009 8:25 AM EDT

Also,

If the HF was so OP, why are the 9th and 10th highest tattoos HF with the 1-8th highest being other types. Including the SF and RBF and RoS?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 8:58 AM EDT

I see yo all are missing the point: What other tattoo has this?

Ranger you're saying that tanks need there NW, what about the jig? It doesn't need NW nor does the jig operate above its lvl.

The HaL imo, does this. The full NW of the thing is its PTH and seeing what JW showed us, half its NW is used for the X. That means the HaL gets a weapon 1.5 times its NW, no other tattoo does this. If we went on balance the HaL should get .5 its NW in PTH and .5 of its NW in damage. Not 1.5

QBRanger September 4 2009 9:05 AM EDT

No Henk,

Your missing the point.

Tanks, and the HF, need NW to compete.

If you remove NW from the HF, it becomes nothing.

The Jig has UC which is a weapon it itself, a poor one. And UC needs a buff which I believe most of us agree.

Remember when the HF was first introduced? Compound bow equivalent, with a much lower PTH. Nobody used it. Then as it received buffs, more people started to use it. Now, it is used by a decent amount of people, but not everyone uses one. Certainly not like the ToE of yesteryear.

As it was stated in a post above, one cannot compare the NW or xp of each tattoo to call them balanced. One needs to see their effectiveness.

As I see it, the HF is not disproportionally used, does not have a predominance in the top characters.

It is the most expensive tattoo in auctions, but likely that is due to people seeing how useful it is.

One can say the RBF and ToA are OP as well due to their auction prices, but as JW stated, why are the other tattoos not used as much?

Especially the ToE and FF.

However, one reason I think the HF is desired is that fact you get a tank for using the tattoo slot.

If you want to be a mixed damage character, as some in the game profess Jon wants, it is a perfect addition to a character without having to spend million of NW on a weapon.

But again, to compare NW vs xp vs x,y or Z is myopic.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 9:12 AM EDT

again, the HaL has 1.5 times its NW in a bow, no other tattoo has this.

Even if the HaL "only" has 1.0 times its NW in a bow that bow would still be bigger then most elbs out there.

1.5 is not 1.0

iBananco [Blue Army] September 4 2009 9:15 AM EDT

"again, the HaL has 1.5 times its NW in a bow, no other tattoo has this."
You keep repeating the fact that the Hal has x times its NW in its bow as if that would make it relevant.

"Even if the HaL "only" has 1.0 times its NW in a bow that bow would still be bigger then most elbs out there."
An 8.5M Hal is also bigger than most Hals out there.

"1.5 is not 1.0"
Correct.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 9:25 AM EDT

uh JS, the only reason why I took that HaL because of its values that are known in the wiki, if you would look at MPR and levels.

If you look at the different MPR's and different lvls of the HaL you would see that the HaL, even at lower MPR's and lvls, has a bigger elb then most minions have.

So that one is only used as an example

"You keep repeating the fact that the Hal has x times its NW in its bow as if that would make it relevant."
Why is this relevant? Because no other tattoo has this, operating beyond 100%, so that makes it unbalanced. I don't care how this balance is restored as long as it gets restored.

QBRanger September 4 2009 9:28 AM EDT

Again

Who cares except for you that the HF has 1.0 or 1.5 or 2.0 its NW in an elb?

Is it working as it should?

Does it do more damage than tanks?

It is more powerful than the RBF?

Again, to compare NW to xp is a difficult thing at best.

There are ways to counter the HF, how many ways are there to counter the RBF? or the SF?

Instead of a post saying the HF is overpowered, why not try to see if its damage is too much, if other tattoos give equivlant damage, and why other tattoos do not sell for as much.

QBRanger September 4 2009 9:32 AM EDT

Hal hit Alive [301004]
Eat absorbs damage [301004]
Hal hit Alive [228888]
Eat absorbs damage [228888]
Hal hit Alive [297293]

vs Little Anthony in the 4th round of missile.

A total of 800k damage. How much would a 9M SF do vs Alive? I do highly suspect much more. In the first 3 rounds of missile, I hit 2 times.

As no other tattoo has a NW weapon, to state the HF is the only tattoo operating at over 100% is very wrong. Since we know that NW of tattoo are an arbitrary figure.

How does one put a true NW of a 10M SF or RBF or ToA?

Or would you be happier if Jon/NS boost the NW of all tattoos by 50%?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 9:33 AM EDT

Ah Ranger you're offering that we do a controlled test?

Great I'll help, all we need are the tattoo's that do damage. Each needs to be a lvl of 100k each, we need a character that is nothing more then a HP minion then can hold those and we need a target that is nothing else but HP, no ED's, EO's, AC or anything else.

Then we can test out the damage they would dish out.

Is that a fair controlled test?
And I'll bet the HaL is one of the top damage givers out there.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 9:37 AM EDT

Your using the wrong guy as an example.

You're using LA, someone who has over 1.3mil mpr advantage over you? Who has a 376 AC wall? Quite frankly I'm surprised you can beat him at all.

This is looking like the time I took my old 500k pr character and shot a 1.5m pr character with an x24 elb

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2009 9:40 AM EDT

Steeds of the Apocalypse's Magic Missile hit Alive [1003429] (12m SF in Melee)

So you're only 200k short against a wallish sorta minion.

QBRanger September 4 2009 9:41 AM EDT

Henk,

It all depends on the person you fight.

Vs a Jig or a tank with high dexterity, I guarantee the HF will do less damage than a DD familiar. Especially if the DD familiar junctions NSC to make AMF worthless.

The RBF will do overall more damage over the entire fight due to its "special" damage.

One needs to see the tattoos in action, not a 100k controlled environment as nobody fights at that level.

Especially with the N*B giving people 100k MPR by the end of the first or 2nd day.

And if the HF was so OP, why are you using a RBF instead of a HF with all its "free" overpowered NW?

Or why is not novice or PoisoN or Mikel or LA? They are the top characters aside from myself.

QBRanger September 4 2009 9:43 AM EDT

Novice,

How much damage you do vs that minion in the first round of melee?

I hit 1-2 times for 300k each?

I bet you do much more in melee.

As does most RBF's LA faces.

My character and the HF is designed for a quick kill strategy. GA eats me up. If someone makes it to melee, my HF is basically done. Especially vs Jigs, tanks with high dexterity and evasion/DB minions.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 9:43 AM EDT

Since I like RoBF and have never been one of those guys that follow the pack.

Why are all those guys not doing the same? I don't know. Ask them.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2009 9:44 AM EDT

I'm not using it because I believe dual damage types are key to long term success (unless you're lucky enough to have a heavy tank).

NWO isn't using it because he's never really changed anything about his team (adding Junction was a big damn deal)

Mikel is standing by his thread to use the RoBF if bows were nerfed I think... and the other guy might not even know what a Hal does.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2009 9:45 AM EDT

err threat

QBRanger September 4 2009 9:48 AM EDT

So there is a choice to be able to do well and compete in CB.

Unlike the ToE which was by far so OP one needed it to compete.

But to state the HF is OP due to its NW on the weapon is hard to do. Since it is the only tattoo to use a NW type weapon.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2009 9:51 AM EDT

I've seen nearly universal agreement about the PTH of the Hal being high, why not drop that by a fourth and hold it up to the measuring stick again?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 4 2009 9:55 AM EDT

Ow in reply to the perfect damage of the RoBF, it only "fires" once every round and any AC above 350 will reduce the damage by 80%

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 4 2009 10:22 AM EDT

Who cares how much "net worth" it has? If there was a familiar that trained 100% HP and had five times its NW in a Helm of Durin, would you label that as overpowered too? The only thing you should be concerned with when trying to balance the Hal is its damage output and survivability capabilities compared to those of other familiars.

--deifeln7, 7:19 AM EDT

I could kiss you. I wont... but I could.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2009 10:24 AM EDT

People with dbs care... someone is being given massive amounts of free NW that they have to use CB to counter.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 4 2009 10:46 AM EDT

i think everyone knows that i believe the pth to be the issue with the hal.


with that said, i wanted to observe that it would seem some think that only if everyone is using something it is overpowered. i guess with that thinking, we can boost evasion back to its pre nerf power? we can also boost the specialty crossbows back as well?

the logic flaw there is the assumption that everyone in the game will flock to whatever makes them the strongest. i would say that there is always a percentage of people in the game that will do that, but it is not the majority by far.

many of us have some type of theme we like to stick to for a team even to the point of gimping our character. ; )

Zenai September 4 2009 11:09 PM EDT

Irregardless of the Statements of it is too much this or that has anyone thought about all of this AND Junctioning it as well? Oh wait you can do that with 4 other Familiars.

ok ok How about their ability to hit huh? Um let's see tha Hal get's more hits but can definitely miss where as all the others get a GUARANTEED hit no matter what. Hmm.....I'd say that is evened out there Champ. I do not care that you get hit 4 times for 200K Damage when that E/F/S/I Familiar just hit you for 1 Mil Damage 1 Time.....IT IS STILL MORE DAMAGE! With Proper Usage ANY of the Familiars Damage Output becomes Evil.

For the Hal there is the GA/DB Foil which are the generally used ones now even though there are more.

For the Other Familiars there is AMF/MSKer Foil but there are still more ways to foil it.

There are a multitude of ways to make your Strategy better all you have to do is figure it out.....that is why this is called a STRATEGY game. I hear so many complaints about so many things but so far there has only been maybe two that I agree with on an overall 100%. The rest are just lazy people in my honest opinion.

I also notice that if you do not go with the main stream in threads people try to dismiss or discredit your intelligence. I'll say this I may not be the smartest person on CB but Common sense tells me 90% of the Complaints here on CB are from Whiners that want their way.

My Word of Advice "Suck it up and Strategize or go to an easier game."

Yes I know I am a big meanie head for this post.....so sue me.

[Jedi] Danludar September 4 2009 11:19 PM EDT

I completely agree with zenai. I don't think a single person could have said it any better. This is gonna be the same as everything else, whine till jon doesn't wanna see it anymore. I wasn't around for evasion but from what I've heard it needed the nerf and the exbow in its previous form needed it as well.

All these things, as tough as this may be to hear, are strategies to combat other strategies. If you don't like them fight back with the counter of it. We sink our CBd into our characters so we can beat other strategies. If the PTH on a bow is hitting you train evasion, grab big DB's, or get a DX advantage. If you can't do any of that take out their damage with an Exbow or EC.

For every strategy in this game there is a counter. Kill em faster, kill them harder, or make them suffer slowly if that's your game. Just everyone try to have fun instead of stressing. Remember it's only a game :)!


I'm probably ranting at this point in this post so I'll stop now.

QBRanger September 5 2009 12:08 AM EDT

Guys/Gals,
I think this thread is starting to take a negative course.

I would hope to keep it as civil as possible before someone shuts it down.

I was likely the start of things and apologize.

Let us try to keep the discussions civil from now on.

kevlar September 5 2009 12:13 AM EDT

Um I think people were trying to do that, until you started your normal posts Ranger, it's pretty funny calling out the entire group to try to correct something when you just admitted being the ignition. Classic you though, wouldn't expect any less.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 5 2009 5:58 AM EDT

The HaL gets massive amounts of free NW in compared by anything in the game, that is still the point. Like I said before give the RoBF its full nw in DB's and then we will talk about this again.

[Jedi] Danludar September 5 2009 8:34 AM EDT

Henk, that wouldn't solve anything. It would only give the possibility of 500+ evasion which nothing could hit. Not even something that has a counter, because the DD protection on the RoBF.

AdminShade September 5 2009 8:56 AM EDT

Now I haven't followed this thread completely, I am wondering a few things having read the first post:



Henk, what are you trying to do? I follow your calculation of the level into the NW of the tattoo. I also follow the calculation of the PTH into NW, but why are you working with +219 PTH instead of the +259 you started with? I guess then you have absolutely no NW to play with at all...

Then the thing with the DB's, what are you doing? Calculating the NW of DBs with +245 and comparing that with the Halidon Familiar? Poor comparison since you don't use the same numbers. Also, DB's are to counter PTH, not to specifically counter the Halidon Familiar.

Then the 3rd thing: your reasoning is very poor in this one. The quotation you make from wiki is correct, The higher the level of the Halidon, the higher the damage modifier and PTH of the ELB it is using. _However_ you are incorrect about your other line:

"This means that not the HP/DX/STR or archery increase the Lvl of the hal."

Of course the HP/DX/STR do not increase the lvl of the Hal, it is the other way around. The level of the Hal increases the HP/DX/ST of the Familiar. (similar like an apple being fruit but not all fruit being apples)

Back on topic, you don't know how the Hal splits its NW between the X and the PTH, why not find this out first then? Otherwise your entire point is based on uncertainties...

If you do not know the balance between X and + on the ELB which the Hal is using, then why make the point of it double dipping?

AdminShade September 5 2009 9:24 AM EDT

Also, if you would want to truly make a controlled comparison, use a character with 4 base minions (or only training HP) and base tattoos to get your starting point. Then try the same with the same minions but with, say, level 1000 familiars.

Yes, this does involve planning a lot of things but then again, otherwise your comparison would always be off...

AdminShade September 5 2009 10:04 AM EDT

kevlar: why don't you stick to the topic instead of pointing fingers at a single person. We all know Ranger does not evade discussions, at least you can respect his apology for him lingering off to a negative spiral.

And not to make me point my finger at a single person. Please all keep the discussion / topic clean. No need to get into heated arguments on a topic as this. Discussion is about showing the way you look at it and ,with it, possibly let someone else see this also, not by forcing it upon a player.

gols090 [forge of me] September 5 2009 11:42 AM EDT

IMO, hal is fine as it is. GA is a very good counter, since hal specializes in many lower damage hits. Exbow and DBs work well too, as stated so many times already. Free NW? So what? Hals aren't ripping *everyone* apart. If they're a problem, use one of the THREE counters. Any nerfing at this point would make it unpopular again.

AdminTitan September 5 2009 11:53 AM EDT

IMHO GA should be left out of this discussion as it is a great counter to *EVERYTHING* right now.

QBRanger September 5 2009 12:22 PM EDT

It is not a counter to the RBF :)

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 5 2009 1:28 PM EDT

:) Am I the only one that smiles whenever Kevlar and Ranger are in the same thread? I mean I think highly of both players, but the gloves always seem to just come off... Even if it's only 1 post/response... Maybe others don't find it as amusing as me...

I dunno, It makes me happy... Usually bickering is annoying and frowned upon, but I would give these two their own reality TV show...

And I would watch it.

>)
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