So what exactly was fixed about the EXBow ?!? (in General)


Sickone September 19 2009 1:53 PM EDT


Let's look at one fight I had that's starting to look ridiculous...

Occam's Razor vs GoldenWarrior
The battle ended in stalemate after 50 rounds of combat


He has this : An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x3000] (+100) owned by KnightWarrior GoldenWarrior)
The Enforcer's Crossbow is used on this minion : Samson
Hit Points: 1,016,068
Armor: 71
Strength: 1,322,490
Dexterity: 759,012

My starter stats ?
Greater Halidon Familiar
Strength: 7,524,830
Dexterity: 2,066,003
A Pair of Displacement Boots [0] (+67)

Basically, triple the dexterity (big advantage) and a pair of DB (granted, lower than his weapon's plus).

Post-battle stats Greater Halidon Familiar
Hit Points 3,270,058
Strength -111,592
Dexterity 2,065,922
Armor Class 47


So, negative ST, you say ? Let's see how we got there...




Physical
Occam's Razor GoldenWarrior
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 16 / 16 / 556,008 4 / 6 / 251,150
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 107 / 107 / 0 0 / 0 / 0




Play-by-play
Occam's Razor GoldenWarrior
Greater Halidon Familiar cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (4,750,000)
Moyses cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (2,658,282)


Ranged Combat

Greater Halidon Familiar struck deep into Moyses [1015026]
David absorbs damage [1015026]
Greater Halidon Familiar skewered Moyses [1431948]
Greater Halidon Familiar struck deep into Moyses [873430]
Greater Halidon Familiar cries "You can't do that, Dave!"
Hal shot Greater Halidon Familiar [297444]
***MISS*** Samson's shot ricocheted near Greater Halidon Familiar

David regenerated 40,489 HP
R.I.P. Moyses


Greater Halidon Familiar hit Hal [1013730]
David absorbs damage [533827]
Greater Halidon Familiar struck deep into Hal [1244398]
Greater Halidon Familiar cries "You can't do that, Dave!"
Hal hit Greater Halidon Familiar [305894]
Hal hit Greater Halidon Familiar [286866]
***MISS*** Samson's shot went wide of Greater Halidon Familiar

David regenerated 40,489 HP
R.I.P. Hal


Greater Halidon Familiar struck deep into Samson [1327165]
Greater Halidon Familiar skewered Samson [928723]
Greater Halidon Familiar struck deep into Samson [1059418]
Greater Halidon Familiar cries "You can't do that, Dave!"
***HIT THEN DEAD*** Samson shot Greater Halidon Familiar [114397]
Greater Halidon Familiar looks weaker!

David regenerated 40,489 HP
R.I.P. Samson


Greater Halidon Familiar shot David [354]
Greater Halidon Familiar hit David [227]
Greater Halidon Familiar hit David [365]

David regenerated 40,489 HP


Greater Halidon Familiar hit David [224]
Greater Halidon Familiar shot David [230]
Greater Halidon Familiar hit David [410]

David regenerated 40,489 HP


Greater Halidon Familiar shot David [218]
Greater Halidon Familiar hit David [270]

David regenerated 40,489 HP


Melee Combat

Greater Halidon Familiar scratched David for no damage
Greater Halidon Familiar glanced off of David for no damage

David regenerated 40,489 HP


Greater Halidon Familiar glanced off of David for no damage
Greater Halidon Familiar glanced off of David for no damage

David regenerated 40,489 HP


Greater Halidon Familiar glanced off of David for no damage
Greater Halidon Familiar scratched David for no damage
Greater Halidon Familiar glanced off of David for no damage

David regenerated 40,489 HP


...and you can pretty much guess how things are going from now on.


So... 1.3 mil ST opponent, he does manage to slip in ONE SINGLE SHOT from a x3000 Enforcer's Crossbow, and all my 7.5 mil strength is GONE ?

Seriously ?

So what exactly was fixed about the Enforcer's Crossbow in the last change to it ?!?
EXACTLY NOTHING, that's what.

AdminShade September 19 2009 1:56 PM EDT

It was fixed to prevent 20 ST enchanters from doing that 7.5 mil ST drain.

Sickone September 19 2009 1:57 PM EDT

And some minion with barely 2 mil relevant levels trained doing all of that in a SINGLE shot is better how exactly ?

DoS [Demon Forging] September 19 2009 1:58 PM EDT

How much HP does your Hal have?

Sickone September 19 2009 2:00 PM EDT

"Greater Halidon Familiar" is my ToA-equipped single minion.

Starting Hit Points: 4,274,659
End-of-fight Hit Points 3,270,058
Damage received in that single shot : 114,397

Windwalker September 19 2009 2:17 PM EDT

None of the largest weapons in the game can drain that much HP in a hit. I doubt anyone does so with multiple hits in a round. That's the thing I find out of balance with this weapon. Your beating a dead horse sick. If you had 10M ST it would have taken that lol oh yeah it's fair :)

QBRanger September 19 2009 2:23 PM EDT

If Golden Warrior was smart, he would be using a AoL instead of that AoF and BoF.

Then your DB would have to be much much higher than his + to try to avoid being hit JUST ONE FREAKING TIME, losing all your strength.

This weapon is just pathetic. Give me a nice mageseeker bow that has a 0 BTH, gets no extra PTH from dex and just depends on PTH for hits. But have it drain DD just like the stupid exbow.

Yes, I will say it yet again, this is a STUPID item.

Godpanda September 19 2009 2:43 PM EDT

How can a dead horse be sick, Wind? :P

*giggles* Yes, I know what you really meant. Just struck me as funny.


Oh, on subject? The crossbows are still ridiculous. GG.

AdminTitan September 19 2009 2:52 PM EDT

And to think everyone made fun of me when I said this as soon as the change was made. I even commented that it would be idiotic for anyone with more than one minion not to have an exbow on their team. x4000 and 1M ST can drain *ANY* tanks ST in the game right now in two hits. But, great fix XD. Oh and believe me, if this stays the way it is, you betcha I'll have one on my final team.

QBRanger September 19 2009 3:04 PM EDT

With the benefits of Leadership (AoL and BoF) one does not really have to pump up the + on such a weapon. Especially when you only have to hit 1 time in most cases.

Perhaps we can get Jon or NS's opinion on why such a weapon is for the good of CB.

Cube September 19 2009 3:10 PM EDT

It's a little better. Unfortunately, not enough.

Zenai September 19 2009 3:16 PM EDT

Indeed this was a start on "Fixing" the ExBow.....but it is NOT finished and Everyone that has dealt with the insane capabilities of the ExBow knows this.

Problem is Jon/NS do not want to continuously hear about something that is in terms of application NOT Broken or Bugged but Functioning within it's Programmed Parameters.

So we have a few crappy choices as a result, they are as follows:

1)Be Strategists and suck it up and play on.

2) Change our Strategy to something we really do not want to do for 1 Single Item by Training Evasion.

3) Get another Single Item and Dump Millions upon Millions of CBD into it just to counter it.....maybe.

4) Train our Dexterity to Insane Proportions and once again Hope to counter it.

5) Petition the Crap out of this item and maybe get Jon to fix it or get him pissed and he makes it even worse than what it was before this present change.

In all events the outcome does not look good so in essence go with the saying: "Be careful for what you wish/ask for!"

My opinion is not the be all end all in this but it is fair to say that these are the most likely choices. There may be more but I just do not see them.

QBRanger September 19 2009 3:21 PM EDT

Z,
Given the history of this item and the fact it took over 2+ years to get it fixed just a little bit, I do not expect much of a change in the future.

I just wish Jon would give us some clue as to what he envisions this item actually doing.

Since with leadership, it is quite easy to hit most tanks in the early melee rounds unless they have insane DBs.

And people using the ELB or MSB cannot use evasion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 19 2009 4:57 PM EDT

Thinking about it, you wouldn't even need Weapon based PTH, or leadership.

Just use a ToA.

Hmmm...

The rebirth of the Archer-Mage?

ToA, EXBow and either CoC/SG.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 19 2009 5:15 PM EDT

>) Working as intended.

QBsutekh137 September 19 2009 5:49 PM EDT

For God's sake just spread out the curve! How many times do we have to go over this?

BINARY ACTIONS SUCK!

That's why you'll hear about this again and again and again and again. You know when you won't hear about it? When it stops being so binary. That's a guarantee.

And if Hal needs a tone-down at that point, awesome. Do it.

QBRanger September 19 2009 5:53 PM EDT

Yes,

Spread the curve.

Have we gotten to expect a +/- game now?

Even a 50% decrease in a tanks strength is about 25-35% less damage, which is very significant.

QBRanger September 19 2009 5:56 PM EDT

However,

The recent change was a huge step in the right direction, and we do appreciate that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2009 5:59 PM EDT

i think that it is more an issue of defender's dex means little and it should mean more. in effect, dex advantage works great but dex disadvantage (as an attacker) means little and it should mean more.

QBsutekh137 September 19 2009 6:04 PM EDT

dudemus, any solution still playing the "hit me I'm done", don't hit me YOU'RE done" doesn't help the issue. How is the dex game going to help this?

And Ranger, thank you for softening my abrupt manner. Sorry about that. I also appreciate the changes that have already been made...

...as every other keystroke stutters, on a home computer, because of the fight feed.

Solare September 19 2009 6:05 PM EDT

"Give me a nice mageseeker bow that has a 0 BTH, gets no extra PTH from dex and just depends on PTH for hits. But have it drain DD just like the stupid exbow."

Don't hate on mages now. AMF is twice as easy to train as EC, which is why I think the Ex-bow is needed, but perhaps not as effective as it currently is. I agree that a single shot on such a minion should not drain all of your strength. That is simply absurd.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2009 6:06 PM EDT

the 100 bth archers do their damage in the first five or six rounds, therefore it kinda has to be that way, no?

i am also quite cool with making ranged damage more of a damage over time...get rid of penalties and reduce it tremendously.

if it does stay where it is with massive damage in a few rounds, then i see no alternative to a massive foil!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2009 6:08 PM EDT

to elaborate, i do not like binary mechanisms any more than you sut, but the massive damage output of 100 bth ranged damage users is binary as well and thus needs a binary foil, in my humble opinion. ; )

QBRanger September 19 2009 6:17 PM EDT

Dude,

Have you seen my HF vs GA? Or even vs some of the high level JKFs out there? LR beats me now, even with my 100% BTH elb and HF.

The HF has foils, plenty of them. The exbow does but when it only takes 1 hit to do all that drain, it is kind of hard to understand that binary mechanism.

Sickone September 19 2009 10:41 PM EDT

I wouldn't mind being hit more often (giving the weapon a higher base chance to hit)...
And I wouldn't even mind if all Enforcer and Assassin crossbows would be MERGED into a single crossbow that does both ST and DX damage every shot...

...but if and only if I lose a respectable yet still manageable percentage portion of ST/DX per hit, NOT the entire ST/DX in a single damn hit.
Even a 50% hard maxcap (of currently remaining value) would be decent enough (still a bit overpowered, but it would be reasonably fair compared to what we have now).

QBRanger September 19 2009 11:19 PM EDT

Solare,

You cannot copmare EC to AMF.

AMF can be made worthless with the NSC. EC still works, even if it means changing the dexterity advantage.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 20 2009 10:32 AM EDT

Well it wasn't fixed technically. It was changed so it can't be abused.

Don't blame an item for doing its job or for people using a strategy that beat yours.

If you want to fix this, balance CTH, PTH and the counters more. He pumps PTH on the exbow, you pump DB's. (which don't reduce dex based hits or BTH)

QBRanger September 20 2009 10:39 AM EDT

"He pumps PTH on the exbow, you pump DB. (which don't reduce dex based hits or BTH) "

That, my friend, is the problem.

I have DBs well over all the exbows out there. But Leadership makes it possible to overcome my DB.

And when all it takes is 1 hit in most cases, it is impossible to overcome PTH.

CTH, PTH are fairly balanced. I have no problems being hit with weapons. In fact I get hit often vs other tanks, esp those using a ToA like Z or SHD. And I can beat them almost all the time.

But when ONE hit can nuke all my strength in ONE hit, Houston, we have a problem.

Things are better than they were as not all exbows reduce my tanks strength to 0, but those that do not have 11M HP on their tank have far more problems than I do.

Zenai September 20 2009 10:58 AM EDT

"Well it wasn't fixed technically. It was changed so it can't be abused.

Don't blame an item for doing its job or for people using a strategy that beat yours.

If you want to fix this, balance CTH, PTH and the counters more. He pumps PTH on the exbow, you pump DB's. (which don't reduce dex based hits or BTH)"

1) Yes it was changed because it was Over Powered for the Job it does, and honestly it still is just at a slightly higher range than before. In other Words it was a "Band-aid Change" not a long term one. This is supposed to be a game of Soft Counters. This is not a soft Counter for 1 Mil in Str I can reduce your 7 - 10 Mil of Str in one Shot.....not a soft counter.

2) I have no problem with another persons Strat beating mine that is part of the game and it just makes me work harder to be better. However when someone much much lower in MPR can come along with nothing but 1 Mil in Str and a couple of mil in Dex/HP with 1 Item and can totally crush me I say that is a line of crap. Beat me Strategically by earning it through hard fought battle and Trained Capabilities such as the plethora of Skills and Spells and MULTITUDE of Items that is at our fingertips.

3) That would be an across the board fix and major coding for the sake of one item.....I seriously doubt that will go over at all. Even in that event it would still work in the same fashion as it does now or you will throw several other things out of whack. No thankyou I would rather Complain about one item than many, work on the item at hand. If you have a Problem with a Light Switch fix the Light Switch there is no need to go and Change out the entire Breakerbox :-/

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 20 2009 11:08 AM EDT

Not that many STR, use EC to drop him below his encumbrance level, I don't know just pitching ideas here.

QBRanger September 20 2009 11:12 AM EDT

I will certainly agree the latest change did remove the highly abusive possibilies of the exbow.

That was a great change just to do that.

However, it does need some tweaking to spread out the leech curve as to not make it a 1 hit=100% drain vs minions without 10+M hp.

It is like a very fine line, a % or 2 here and there, but I still hate seeing an item that in 1 hit can potentially drain a tank of all his/her strength as to make it useless.

If there was no Leadership in the game, or a defensive counter to it, I would also have less of a problem as evasion and/or DB can be a decent counter. But then again, when only 1 hit is needed most of the time to do the leech completely, that is a problem.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2009 11:16 AM EDT

so if 1 hit draining 100 percent of the strength is too much, where do you suggest it be?

AdminTitan September 20 2009 11:24 AM EDT

Hmmm great idea Henk. But, if any tank out their doesn't want to lose to a GA team 1/2 their size they need to train a little DM.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2009 11:25 AM EDT

when responding, keep in mind the most recent input we have from jon, in addition to the recent changelog:

"I agree with novice:

> The exbow has worked the same way for years, and has forced teams with tank only damage to wear defensive equipment to protect against the power of the exbow. This isn't new, or broken per say. Any more than decay or the RoS is broken. They're exceptionally specialized and are designed as counters to a particular setup (often a very powerful setup in itself).

In particular I'm reluctant to change something that has worked, if not "great," then at least "pretty well" for years. Also, some players do have a tendency to cry for a nerf whenever someone beats them with a narrowly-targeted strategy, and that's part of CB. (And if you're wondering what the antecedent of "that" is, it's both. :)

But, I also agree with sutekh:

> Amazing or not, when it comes to being able to have massive rewards based on one, flawed item, that affects just about every aspect of the game. It skews the new user and new character bonuses, skews clan results, and skews the score ladder.

I'm open to suggestions for making the exbow/axbow still useful without being such a hard counter. (Soft counters are more interesting.) I don't think just tweaking the numbers involved is the answer, which is why it's a tough problem."

Guardian September 20 2009 11:26 AM EDT

woot ! i am in the news !

QBRanger September 20 2009 12:08 PM EDT

I already gave my suggestion numerous posts ago.

Make it work like AMF type of leech. A comparison. And never 100% leech, or leech into the negatives. People just want to overlook that a 50% lowering of a tanks strength still is about 25-30% less damage. Which is quite a lot of damage reduction. To get that vs mages, one needs a massive AMF, especially with the NSC out there or a massive MgS with all its restrictions upon use.

Even a targetted mage strategy cannot nerf the DD damage 100%. Or even cause more than 40% backlash.

But slap a nice Exbow on a 1-2M strength tank, using leadership for additional PTH with a modicum of dexterity and you can nerf even the largest tanks out there.

Please, find me a "specialized setup" that can do to mages what this item can do to tanks. With the same NW as these weapons (about 70M), and the same MPR to MPR ratio as those currently using it. Which in some cases is 1/2.

IE, give me a way to beat FTW or NWO or Solid Snake with 1/2 the MPR using a 70M NW item. I can give you one to beat almost any tank out there with 1/2 of Heroe's or SHD's or Z's or Sut's MPR.

Or heck even 1/2 of Shade's MPR with a 70M NW weapon. And do not say Mageseeker as it has to be quite expensive on a tank with plenty of strength/hp to be effective. Especially with PL out there helping mages survive direct hits.

How fair/balanced it that?

But in response to your question-How much leech should be maximum with 1 hit? I would say 50% at most. With a cap of 75% leech from numerous hits being the most. That still gives a massive damage reduction, almost 50% but still does not make a tank useless and forces the exbow user to actually have to win a battle.

Not be able to sit there, using a RBF or other low output damage to eventually whittle away and win.

Sickone September 20 2009 12:15 PM EDT

"I'm open to suggestions for making the exbow/axbow still useful without being such a hard counter. (Soft counters are more interesting.) I don't think just tweaking the numbers involved is the answer, which is why it's a tough problem."

1. Merge Enforcer and Assassin crossbow into a SINGLE item, let's call it "Crippling Crossbow".
2. Make the "Crippling Crossbow" base chance to hit 100%, increase the + upgrade curve HEAVILY.
3. Increase damage dealt to mageseeker bow level (have target ST+DX affect damage reduction like ST affects it in melee).
4. Target priority is max(ST+DX) out of all possible targets.
5. Make ST destruction depend on damage dealt vs target HP - max drain acheived for 15% or higher of remaining HP lost
6. Hard-cap both drain amounts to 45% of SHOOTER'S corresponding stat (ST/DX) level per SHOT.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2009 12:16 PM EDT

"But in response to your question-How much leech should be maximum with 1 hit? I would say 50% at most. With a cap of 75% leech from numerous hits being the most. That still gives a massive damage reduction, almost 50% but still does not make a tank useless and forces the exbow user to actually have to win a battle."

that does not seem to still be the foil that jon stated he wants the item to be, are you suggesting another foil then or just removal of the present one?

QBRanger September 20 2009 12:27 PM EDT

The reason the exbow has worked "pretty well" for years is that nobody put 60M or more NW into it.

Now that people have we are seeing how utterly abusive it.

I believe my solution or others like it is in like with what Jon wants.

I would greatly hope that Jon did not envision the exbow as an item that someone with 1/2 your MPR and barely any other items could make a speciality setup to beat the higher and more expensive tanks out there.

As noted in this response to Sut's points.

He stated he wants to make the exbow "useful" and solutions like mine or even Sickone's, if done correctly, addresses that point.

So I respectfully disagree with your statement: "that does not seem to still be the foil that jon stated he wants the item to be, are you suggesting another foil then or just removal of the present one? "

I think it is the perfect foil Jon wants the exbow to be. Not a 1 hit low MPR tank destroyer.

Even decay is not a specialize strategy that works without a large MPR and even NW investment to back it up. Even the RoS, his other example, needs plenty of MPR and some NW to be successful. It is obvious that the exbow does not need as much MPR or NW other than the weapon itself to be successful.

Which makes it a highly abusive item. Much less so with the recent change, however still abusive enough.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 20 2009 1:08 PM EDT

"Hmmm great idea Henk. But, if any tank out their doesn't want to lose to a GA team 1/2 their size they need to train a little DM."

Yup those are your options. Lose VS GA teams or VS exbow teams.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2009 1:33 PM EDT

i do understand what you are saying ranger, but most of these ideas were also around when jon made the recent change as well. he chose to keep enchanters from not abusing it but left most of its capabilities intact.

i could very well be reading too much into that but i feel the opposite is the case and that you aren't reading enough into it. this is why i offered some suggestions in the other thread like training more dex or asking for defensive dex to mean more in fight mechanics.

AdminTitan September 20 2009 2:27 PM EDT

"Yup those are your options. Lose VS GA teams or VS exbow teams."

DX and DBs take care of that. Then I only lose to exbow tanks... Nice compromise. Finally make my NW useful. :)

iBananco [Blue Army] September 20 2009 9:33 PM EDT

"Yup those are your options. Lose VS GA teams or VS exbow teams."

To beat ELB users, all you have to do is get DBs and train DX on your mage. Sure, you won't do well against other mages, but that's your choice.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 21 2009 4:32 AM EDT

Train a bit of EC, equip DB's and train a bit of dex on your tank and those smaller exbow tanks can't hit you either. But you lose VS GA teams. Thats is also your choice.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 21 2009 7:12 AM EDT

I love choices.

Sickone September 21 2009 7:46 AM EDT

"Train a bit of EC, equip DB's and train a bit of dex on your tank and those smaller exbow tanks can't hit you either. But you lose VS GA teams. Thats is also your choice. "

Equip a RoS, use all three DM together in whatever ratio you want, lose to nobody ?
For added insult to injury, also use an EXBow yourself ?

Sickone September 21 2009 7:50 AM EDT

Ok, let's see, pondering the extremest possible overpowered team...

1. RoS with DM, EC and AMF to counter most incoming damage sources
2. EXBow x3000 +200 on a 1 mil ST minion and not much else except HP to cover enc fully, so you obliterate enemy tanks in a single round
3. TSA+PL minion so even if it dies it doesn't really die
4. Mage + high NSC so you laugh at enemy AMF
5. AoI+BoF lead minion, or maybe just AoL+BoF minion since you have the TSA+PL battery anyway

Did I miss anything ?

Demigod September 21 2009 8:01 AM EDT

What the approximate NW of that setup? Just curious if it's viable.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 21 2009 8:44 AM EDT

why would DM effect an opponents EC?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 21 2009 8:45 AM EDT


Sickone 7:50 AM EDT
Ok, let's see, pondering the extremest possible overpowered team...

1. RoS with DM, EC and AMF to counter most incoming damage sources
2. EXBow x3000 +200 on a 1 mil ST minion and not much else except HP to cover enc fully, so you obliterate enemy tanks in a single round
3. TSA+PL minion so even if it dies it doesn't really die
4. Mage + high NSC so you laugh at enemy AMF
5. AoI+BoF lead minion, or maybe just AoL+BoF minion since you have the TSA+PL battery anyway


insta lose vs robf teams. Rock and paper

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 21 2009 10:22 AM EDT

Maybe if you turned that AoL + BoF minion into wall you'd stand a chance. (I rather like this strat. I might run it. ;)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002sgY">So what exactly was fixed about the EXBow ?!? </a>