Fluoride... Huh??? (in Off-topic)


{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 6 2009 5:46 PM EST

Wow I guess I'm just ignorant, but after doing some reading, I just have to ask:

Why are people OK with being fed a POISON??

Fluoride is in fact a poison, our own CDC has it listed as a poison, yet it is widely believed that this POISON is somehow good for teeth? So that makes it ok? (the real kicker is now the ADS or: American Dental Association, is now starting to go against Fluoride, unable to hush the fact that they are being presented with scientific studies that show fluoride has ZERO ZERO ZERO 0000000000!!!! positive effects in the treatment or prevention of Tooth Decay...

Huh?

I also just recently found out that something like 90% of the United States Fluoridates it's water... "to promote healthy teeth" ...

This is so shocking to me! ... WHAT!?

My ignorance comes from the fact that my city is one of the few left that doesn't take part in this ridiculous practice (mmm our water is sooo good, be jealous), and because my family is "all about natural stuff" or whatever, I grew up using 'tooth polish', basically tooth paste without fluoride, and other garbage ingredients. (something to thank my parents for I guess)

I discovered this knowledge while up in Seattle and went to get a cup of water and it smelled sooooo nasty and chemically, and my friend started telling me about fluoridation and stuff...

Really? Wow...

Just do some google browsing, you might just be a part of 90% of the country unknowingly ingesting a POISON.

I guess it's not all that surprising considering how many people smoke cigarettes...

What a joke. I feel bad for most of you.

-J

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2009 5:51 PM EST

They have recently introduced this into Australian drinking water. It wasn't an optional thing as far as i am aware, the government just decided, hey look poison that dentists believe help our teeth, stick it in the water.
Bah politicians.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 6 2009 5:52 PM EST

Yeah It's pretty sickening...

http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoride-facts.htm

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] November 6 2009 5:56 PM EST

This is important and relevant information to this topic
continued here.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 6 2009 5:59 PM EST

Fex, could you mind summarizing any of that for me? Dialup at home = no youtube for me :(

Underage Drinking [Battle Royale] November 6 2009 6:00 PM EST

now i wonder how would i go about finding if my city puts that in our drinking water?

AdminTitan November 6 2009 6:10 PM EST

I would just like to thank my state for putting flouride in my states water.

AdminTitan November 6 2009 6:10 PM EST

sorry, that would be fluoride.

AdminTitan November 6 2009 6:13 PM EST

Oh a btw fyi, most states don't fluorate the water with fluoride anymore.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 6 2009 6:15 PM EST

From what I have read it looks like fluoride in your drinking water is only potentially bad for little children and that drinking it doesn't help its mainly just the contact of fluoride on your teeth that helps. From what I see it looks like drinking it is kind of a waste because it could harm the teeth of children and it wont do very much good. But it is good to brush your teeth with fluoride.

AdminTitan November 6 2009 6:19 PM EST

Sorry, what I meant was water is no longer fluorated with sodium fluoride, it is now fluorated with hexafluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6) and its salt sodium hexafluorosilicate (Na2SiF6), same thing, a lot more efficient.

Nem: That's why you're not told to eat toothpaste, the amount in water is minuscule, and since we're going to quote CDC: "CDC identifies it as one of 10 great public health achievements of the 20th century."

GnuUzir November 6 2009 6:39 PM EST

Sodium = Poison

Chlorine = Poison

Sodium Chloride = Table Salt

=)

Funny how those thinks work...

[P]Mitt November 6 2009 6:54 PM EST

You're overreacting. Anything in high enough quantities is poisonous. Chlorine is a poison, yet we let our children swim around in it all day.

Fluorine in low enough quantities does benefit cavity prevention.

The body of scientific knowledge that says "Fluorine" has a beneficial effect on cavity prevention far outweighs the fringe alarmists who scream things like "scientific studies that show fluoride has ZERO ZERO ZERO 0000000000!!!! positive effects in the treatment or prevention of Tooth Decay..."

If we only listen to those people who try to stir up controversy, we would not be eating beef (mad cow), pork (swine flu - yes, I know it's not spread through pork), chicken (avian flu), fish (mercury)....

Yes, I know that fluorine, in high enough quantities, is considered a Poison. But so is bleach, yet we use it every day, same with the multitudes of daily items.

Tyriel [123456789] November 6 2009 6:55 PM EST

There are 'poisons' in the air we breathe, on the things we touch, in the things we use. Anything can be dangerous or deadly in the right (or wrong, I guess) amounts.

You die from too little water, and you can die from too much water. You can die from breathing in water. You can cause damage to your body by being in water too long. Do you 'feel bad' for people who drink fluoride-free water, too? It reminds me of The Simpsons, where Lisa's project in the science fair talks about how dangerous dihydrogen monoxide is.

Fluoride is in toothpastes and mouthwashes, and it's probably in other things, too. Have you ever heard of anybody dying from swallowing some toothpaste, or from the dentist accidentally giving them so much fluoride they died? I haven't. Sure, if you swallow a tube or two of toothpaste, you might become ill or even die from enough, but chances are you'll only swallow enough (barring a massive brain cramp) to maybe make your stomach uneasy for a few minutes.

Same deal with water. Have you ever heard of somebody dying from fluoride ingestion via water? The water itself (or anything that may get in the water) is probably more likely to cause harm to somebody than the fluoride that people added.

Tyriel [123456789] November 6 2009 6:56 PM EST

Bah, my point got ninja'd!

Curse you, Mitt!

Wasp [Demon Forging] November 6 2009 7:15 PM EST

Only read the first couple paragraphs of the first post. Had too many to really give a damn but studies have shown that flouride is good for teeth. Teeth are much healthier now that it is added to water. Back in the days when it wasn't added to water there was bad teeth etc.

QBsutekh137 November 6 2009 7:26 PM EST

Fluoride in the water has been an ongoing debate, just usually off the radar.

Definitely one of those tricky situations. Yes, it is safe for most everyone. But if one person dies while millions have better teeth, what does a nation do? Add to that the fact that water is NOT optional, but fluoride could be viewed as such.

I am not weighing in either way. But I do brush my teeth twice a day. If I ever got sick from Fluoride in the water, I would definitely be peeved.

But it remains such a non-issue that I don't even know if Wisconsin/Madison puts it in the water, and don't really care. Thousands of people die of starvation, at least a fraction of that preventable in terms of the food is being held up by politics, war, or good old-fashioned power-mongering.

Perspective is important, and daunting.

Joel November 6 2009 7:34 PM EST

Fluoride is a dangerous substance, but many dangerous substances become less harmful depending on the amount you ingest. In the case of fluoridated water, the amount of fluoride compound contained in every ounce is very low.
The human body has many ways to deal with poisons, and the amount of fluoride in fluoridated water is well within the tolerances of our body's defenses.
Obviously it is, since our bodies deal with it so easily on a daily basis.
Now, the reason it is used in dental care products and drinking water is for the effect it has on germs.
Fluoride is one of the most reactive substances in existence.
That means that it is able to combine with many different kinds of materials, very quickly.
When fluoride is combined with another material, usually that material is changed into a much different form, like how oxygen combines with iron to make rust.
The reason that fluoride is classified as a poison is that, because of its extreme reactivity, it is very corrosive.
Our body deals with corrosive substances in a very simple way: Our mucus will absorb most of it, if not all is absorbed, then the damage done to tissues is easily replaced.
Basically, the amount of damage a corrosive substance can do to our bodies directly correlates to the amount of the substance ingested. As an example: if you ingest 1 ml of pure fluoride, then you will have about the same amount of flesh in your body dissolved.
The amount in water is enough to combine with a small amount of dead skin cells and bacteria, and then it is all neutralized through its combination with those materials.
I don't profess to know exactly how much material can be dissolved by a certain measurement of fluoride; its probably much higher, due to its label of extreme corrosiveness. I was just making a basic example.
Finally, the main reason fluoride is used in water and tooth care products is that it kills bacteria extremely well.
I hope I helped alleviate your concern for us Jiraiya!

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 6 2009 7:47 PM EST

Removing something because it can be poisonous in high quantities = yet another way to make our worlds immune systems weaker = epic fail.
Goodnight.

Zenai November 6 2009 7:59 PM EST

Several others have made the right points, I could not have said them any better. As a side note I have had the good clean water from the Country and yes it is sweet and delicious! The kind you probably got while in Seattle was hard water that was filtered, it's usually the worst smelling and tasting.

Joel November 6 2009 8:00 PM EST

Its true what Zoglog says. If our bodies have less things to guard against, daily, then our immune systems will become weak. I guess its the same thing as saying "Constant danger will keep you on your toes" The more our bodies experience, the stronger they become.

iBananco [Blue Army] November 6 2009 8:02 PM EST

Good thinking. It's a Communist plot.

Joel November 6 2009 8:12 PM EST

What deifeln7 says is true: its a Communist plot! rofl

three4thsforsaken November 6 2009 8:36 PM EST

Interesting Joel! I enjoyed reading that. Gives a nice perspective on what is going on.

AdminShade November 6 2009 8:46 PM EST

Sorry Jir but you completely either lost me or are indoctrinated.

Fluoride is a poison, true.
Fluoride combined with Hydrogen is an acid which eats through glass.
Fluoride combined with Carbon can make Teflon (resistant to 99% of things plus 260+ Degrees Centigrade (calculate F for yourself ;) )

Fluoride however, in the formulation is it comprised into toothpaste, in small quantities like in toothpaste, will act as a buffer and repairing agents of teeth instead of a poison.



To say it differently: Water is poison, when drunk in large quantities. However we contain 70% of it and need it. Fluoride is good for the teeth, unless you eat it like food.

Another example: Ethanol (as in alcohol like in beer, wodka, wine, etc. is cancerous. Yet the daily dosage to have it actually be carcenous, you'd be a 48 year old woman putting her hands in it for 8 hours a day, 300 days a year... in pure alcohol... in other words, government finds something and exaggerates it too overly much.






Don't feel bad for brushing your teeth with toothpaste containing Fluoride, it's not the same as Fluorine (which is the actual poisonous substance instead of Fluoride).

AdminShade November 6 2009 8:47 PM EST

p.s. The Netherlands do not have Fluoride in their water system any more. That project has been cancelled because it did not have any benefits.

AdminShade November 6 2009 8:53 PM EST

I also just recently found out that something like 90% of the United States Fluoridates it's water... "to promote healthy teeth" ...


Ehm: sorry but if they promote it like this, they are mad...

They should promote it in the way that fluoridated water causes less bacteria to infest it, making a better water quality. Fluoride in water does not perse improve teeth health, instead it removes bad things and strengthens teeth's barriers.

AdminShade November 6 2009 8:56 PM EST

he kind you probably got while in Seattle was hard water that was filtered, it's usually the worst smelling and tasting.

Zog: if that water is properly filtered, it is neither hard water, not smelling, nor tasting any more...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 6 2009 9:33 PM EST

You mean Zen right? I didn't say anything about hard water :P
I just called anyone against fluoridation a bunch of pussies :P

iBananco [Blue Army] November 6 2009 10:13 PM EST

Uh, last I checked, they fluoridated water for the same reason that dentists use fluoride. It changes the mineral coating of your teeth to one that's significantly more resistant to decay.

iBananco [Blue Army] November 6 2009 10:26 PM EST

I mean, because of Communists.

Zenai November 6 2009 10:39 PM EST

"if that water is properly filtered, it is neither hard water, not smelling, nor tasting any more..."


Shade:

The Key word here is "Properly" in the states where ever there is a large populous the Water Cleaning Plants work overtime and have to rush water treatments. When in doubt go ahead and add the extra bit of chemicals to the Margin of Measured Error.

In some cases the water does not come out so brisk and fresh tasting....... if you do not like the taste go and buy another filter for your faucet or buy bottled water. It is drinkable which is all that really matters to the Cities/States. :-/

kevlar November 6 2009 10:50 PM EST

I hate it when you drink from the tap and smell the chlorine :/ I lived in a small town that fluoride in the water was a big problem with causing nasty brown stains on people's teeth. Thought it was from smoking. I don't know if the change Titan mentioned has anything to do with the solution to fluoride stains, or if they just reduced the levels.

This thread is interesting because I read on a box of Sensodyne toothpaste that you aren't supposed to use it more than a few weeks or something. I wonder if it has to do with the toxicity factor or staining or something else.

SundariZelia [The Knighthood] November 6 2009 10:57 PM EST

Fluoride can also make teeth more brittle which is probably why it shouldn't be over used and why all my wisdom teeth broke.

Cube November 7 2009 9:22 AM EST

It's a Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.


"the 50% lethal dose (LD50) orally in rats is 0.125 g/kg"
Say 80 kilo adult, sorry for non American units, like 180 lbs.
10 g to kill the adult.
4mg/L was the old allowed amount of fluoride in the water.

Let me know when you can drink anywhere near 2500 L, or 2.7 tons of water without dying from something else.

As for long term health effects, there have been numerous health studies and court cases saying that it's safe, and yet no one in the USA has ever banned it, not without trying. You just have to get used to the idea. If this was new, I could see being concerned, but this has been going on for ages.

AdminNightStrike November 7 2009 10:12 AM EST

Alcohol is a poison, too, and people drink WAY more of that than they do of the fluoride in the water. I would worry a heck of a lot more about having a regular drink (even one a day is very excessive) than the amount of fluoride you ingest.

If you're an infant, though (under 2 years old), DO NOT drink fluoridated water. It's a massive cause of infant death.

QBsutekh137 November 7 2009 10:40 AM EST

Hm, some (fairly recent) studies have shown that one drink a day (wine is often the type mentioned) can have health benefits. That doesn't sound like "very excessive" to me.

Though, of course, we can just wait for the next "study de jour" that will say every drop is entirely detrimental, then the next to say it isn't, the next to say is too, the next to say IS NOT!, etc, etc.

I'd rather just have a drink, and it has nothing to do with whether or not it will cut down my life span. I find drinking enjoyable and perceive it to increase my quality of life, so I can either live longer in what I consider dull fashion (my opinion, I am not saying anyone else has to agree, or should agree) or potentially have a shorter life enjoying the time.

If others get enjoyment from life in different ways, ways that eschew every poison, hazard, or fatty food, then that is entirely wonderful! You'll likely get to live longer AND be enjoying it the whole while. Just as long as folks live out such years not telling me what to do or how to do it.

And could I get a citation on the fact that fluoridated water is a "massive cause of infant death"? When I think "massive" I think "large majority". Are you saying the majority of infant deaths are caused by Fluoride? I suppose I can Google it myself, too. I'll go see what I can find...

QBsutekh137 November 7 2009 10:46 AM EST

Same study came up a couple times:

Linky

...though, when they say "nationwide", they are referring to New Zealand, so I am not sure how large the study was... Not putting down NZ, just saying it doesn't have as many people as, say, the USA.

That's just SIDS, though, will check out other infant death scenarios as related to Fluoride...

QBsutekh137 November 7 2009 10:58 AM EST

Some other viewpoints:

Link

A site with lots and lots of quotes about how infants should not get fluorinated water. For the life of me, though, I can't find any actual articles on why, other than some ADA information on the fact that too much fluoride for softer teeth can cause "dental fluorosis", a purely cosmetic thing, but something to be avoided (no death involved, though).

Still having trouble finding anything that says fluoride kills babies, but I have to admit I don't fully understand why it was ever put in the drinking water, anywhere. A public push for toothpaste and proper tooth-brushing techniques (which WAS pushed heavily when I was a child, IIRC) would be much more effective (IMHO). The fluoride industry must have had some powerful lobbies back in the day!

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 7 2009 4:40 PM EST

Ok.. Here comes a wall of text. Enjoy.

1) 97% of western Europe has chosen fluoride-free water . This includes: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, and Switzerland. (While some European countries add fluoride to salt, the majority do not.) Thus, rather than mandating fluoride treatment for the whole population, western Europe allows individuals the right to choose, or refuse, fluoride.

2) Fluoride is the only chemical added to drinking water for the purpose of medication (to prevent tooth decay). All other treatment chemicals are added to treat the water (to improve the water's quality and safety - which fluoride does not do). This is one of the reasons why most of Europe has rejected fluoridation. For instance:

In Germany, "The argumentation of the Federal Ministry of Health against a general permission of fluoridation of drinking water is the problematic nature of compulsion medication."

In Belgium, it is "the fundamental position of the drinking water sector that it is not its task to deliver medicinal treatment to people. This is the sole responsibility of health services."

In Luxembourg, "In our views, drinking water isn't the suitable way for medicinal treatment and that people needing an addition of fluoride can decide by their own to use the most appropriate way."

3) Contrary to previous belief, fluoride has minimal benefit when swallowed. When water fluoridation began in the 1940s and '50s, dentists believed that fluoride needed to be swallowed in order to be most effective. This belief, however, has now been discredited by an extensive body of modern research (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/topical-systemic.html)

According to the Centers for Disease Control, fluoride's "predominant effect is posteruptive and topical" (2). In other words, any benefits that accrue from the use of fluoride, come from the direct application of fluoride to the outside of teeth (after they have erupted into the mouth) and not from ingestion. There is no need, therefore, to expose all other tissues to fluoride by swallowing it.

4) Fluoridated water is no longer recommended for babies. In November of 2006, the American Dental Association (ADA) advised that parents should avoid giving babies fluoridated water (3). Other dental researchers have made similar recommendations over the past decade.

Babies exposed to fluoride are at high risk of developing dental fluorosis - a permanent tooth defect caused by fluoride damaging the cells which form the teeth (5). Other tissues in the body may also be affected by early-life exposures to fluoride. According to a recent review published in the medical journal The Lancet, fluoride may damage the developing brain, causing learning deficits and other problems.

5) There are better ways of delivering fluoride than adding it to water. By adding fluoride to everyone's tap water, many infants and other at-risk populations will be put in harm's way. This is not only wrong, it is unnecessary. As western Europe has demonstrated, there are many equally effective and less-intrusive ways of delivering fluoride to people who actually want it. For example:

A) Topical fluoride products such as toothpaste and mouthrinses (which come with explicit instructions not to swallow) are readily available at all grocery stores and pharmacies. Thus, for those individuals who wish to use fluoride, it is very easy to find and very inexpensive to buy.

B) If there is concern that some people in the community cannot afford to purchase fluoride toothpaste (a family-size tube of toothpaste costs as little as $2 to $3), the money saved by not fluoridating the water can be spent subsidizing topical fluoride products (or non-fluoride alternatives) for those families in need.

C) The vast majority of fluoride added to water supplies is wasted, since over 99% of tap water is not actually consumed by a human being. It is used instead to wash cars, water the lawn, wash dishes, flush toilets, etc.

6) Ingestion of fluoride has little benefit, but many risks. Whereas fluoride's benefits come from topical contact with teeth, its risks to health (which involve many more tissues than the teeth) result from being swallowed.

Adverse effects from fluoride ingestion have been associated with doses attainable by people living in fluoridated areas. For example:

a) Risk to the brain. According to the National Research Council (NRC), fluoride can damage the brain. Animal studies conducted in the 1990s by EPA scientists found dementia-like effects at the same concentration (1 ppm) used to fluoridate water, while human studies have found adverse effects on IQ at levels as low as 0.9 ppm among children with nutrient deficiencies, and 1.8 ppm among children with adequate nutrient intake.

b) Risk to the thyroid gland. According to the NRC, fluoride is an モendocrine disrupter.ヤ Most notably, the NRC has warned that doses of fluoride (0.01-0.03 mg/kg/day) achievable by drinking fluoridated water, may reduce the function of the thyroid among individuals with low-iodine intake. Reduction of thyroid activity can lead to loss of mental acuity, depression and weight gain

c) Risk to bones. According to the NRC, fluoride can diminish bone strength and increase the risk for bone fracture. While the NRC was unable to determine what level of fluoride is safe for bones, it noted that the best available information suggests that fracture risk may be increased at levels as low 1.5 ppm, which is only slightly higher than the concentration (0.7-1.2 ppm) added to water for fluoridation.

d) Risk for bone cancer. Animal and human studies ヨ including a recent study from a team of Harvard scientists ヨ have found a connection between fluoride and a serious form of bone cancer (osteosarcoma) in males under the age of 20. The connection between fluoride and osteosarcoma has been described by the National Toxicology Program as "biologically plausible." Up to half of adolescents who develop osteosarcoma die within a few years of diagnosis.

e) Risk to kidney patients. People with kidney disease have a heightened susceptibility to fluoride toxicity. The heightened risk stems from an impaired ability to excrete fluoride from the body. As a result, toxic levels of fluoride can accumulate in the bones, intensify the toxicity of aluminum build-up, and cause or exacerbate a painful bone disease known as renal osteodystrophy.

7) The industrial chemicals used to fluoridate water may present unique health risks not found with naturally-occurring fluoride complexes . The chemicals - fluorosilicic acid, sodium silicofluoride, and sodium fluoride - used to fluoridate drinking water are industrial waste products from the phosphate fertilizer industry. Of these chemicals, fluorosilicic acid (FSA) is the most widely used. FSA is a corrosive acid which has been linked to higher blood lead levels in children. A recent study from the University of North Carolina found that FSA can - in combination with chlorinated compounds - leach lead from brass joints in water pipes, while a recent study from the University of Maryland suggests that the effect of fluoridation chemicals on blood lead levels may be greatest in houses built prior to 1946. Lead is a neurotoxin that can cause learning disabilities and behavioral problems in children.

8) Water fluoridationメs benefits to teeth have been exaggerated. Even proponents of water fluoridation admit that it is not as effective as it was once claimed to be. While proponents still believe in its effectiveness, a growing number of studies strongly question this assessment. According to a systematic review published by the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long Term Care, "The magnitude of [fluoridation's] effect is not large in absolute terms, is often not statistically significant and may not be of clinical significance."

a) No difference exists in tooth decay between fluoridated & unfluoridated countries. While water fluoridation is often credited with causing the reduction in tooth decay that has occurred in the US over the past 50 years, the same reductions in tooth decay have occurred in all western countries, most of which have never added fluoride to their water. The vast majority of western Europe has rejected water fluoridation. Yet, according to comprehensive data from the World Health Organization, their tooth decay rates are just as low, and, in fact, often lower than the tooth decay rates in the US.

b) Cavities do not increase when fluoridation stops. In contrast to earlier findings, five studies published since 2000 have reported no increase in tooth decay in communities which have ended fluoridation.

c) Fluoridation does not prevent oral health crises in low-income areas. While some allege that fluoridation is especially effective for low-income communities, there is very little evidence to support this claim. According to a recent systematic review from the British government, "The evidence about [fluoridation] reducing inequalities in dental health was of poor quality, contradictory and unreliable." In the United States, severe dental crises are occurring in low-income areas irrespective of whether the community has fluoride added to its water supply. In addition, several studies have confirmed that the incidence of severe tooth decay in children (モbaby bottle tooth decayヤ) is not significantly different in fluoridated vs unfluoridated areas. Thus, despite some emotionally-based claims to the contrary, water fluoridation does not prevent the oral health problems related to poverty and lack of dental-care access.

9) Fluoridation poses added burden and risk to low-income communities. Rather than being particularly beneficial to low-income communities, fluoridation is particularly burdensome and harmful. For example:

a) Low-income families are least able to avoid fluoridated water. Due to the high costs of buying bottled water or expensive water filters, low-income households will be least able to avoid fluoride once it's added to the water. As a result, low-income families will be least capable of following ADAメs recommendation that infants should not receive fluoridated water. This may explain why African American children have been found to suffer the highest rates of disfiguring dental fluorosis in the US.

b) Low-income families at greater risk of fluoride toxicity. In addition, it is now well established that individuals with inadequate nutrient intake have a significantly increased susceptibility to fluorideメs toxic effects. (48-51) Since nutrient deficiencies are most common in low-income communities, and since diseases known to increase susceptibility to fluoride are most prevalent in low-income areas (e.g. end-stage renal failure), it is likely that low-income communities will be at greatest risk from suffering adverse effects associated with fluoride exposure. According to Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, a member of the National Research Council's review of fluoride toxicity: モI would expect low-income communities to be more vulnerable to at least some of the effects of drinking fluoridated water."

10) Due to other sources, many people are being over-exposed to fluoride. Unlike when water fluoridation first began, Americans are now receiving fluoride from many other sources* besides the water supply. As a result many people are now exceeding the recommended daily intake, putting them at elevated risk of suffering toxic effects. For example, many children ingest more fluoride from toothpaste alone than is considered モoptimalヤ for a full dayメs worth of ingestion. According to the Journal of Public Health Dentistry:

"Virtually all authors have noted that some children could ingest more fluoride from [toothpaste] alone than is recommended as a total daily fluoride ingestion." (52)

Because of the increase in fluoride exposure from all sources combined, the rate of dental fluorosis (a visible indicator of over-exposure to fluoride during childhood) has increased significantly over the past 50 years. Whereas dental fluorosis used to impact less than 10% of children in the 1940s, the latest national survey found that it now affects over 30% of children.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

People have been poking fun at the whole conspiracy side of this topic. I've said it before and I'll say it again:


"I usually laugh at people who are knee deep in conspiracy theories about the government. This isn't a topic for me about the hidden agenda of those in power. Looking around, it's more about the insanely growing number of fat, stupid Americans walking around and for me... I think I've put my finger on a cause"

Just visit peopleofwalmart.com to see how fluoridation effects the population.

Several studies link fluoridation to obesity, lower IQ, and other health problems. It wouldn't be such a big deal if I wasn't surrounded constantly by stupid fat people wearing skin tight cloths talking as if they were home schooled by the Bush family. I mean that's why most of us find refuge online isn't it? To take a break from the idiocracy? If your city fluoridates, you just need to take a ride on the public transportation system... If you still don't see a problem, then *shrug* I guess that's your problem.

I'm going to just let this topic die as it's depressing for me. Read up on it yourself and make your own judgments, I wouldn't just trust one website's information or two, or even 10. There is an overwhelming amount of knowledge out there to be had. Take advantage of it.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] November 7 2009 5:25 PM EST

"while human studies have found adverse effects on IQ at levels as low as 0.9 ppm among children with nutrient deficiencies, and 1.8 ppm among children with adequate nutrient intake."

There were others but I don't feel like quoting a whole bunch. Just eat healthy and you should be fine :). Besides, just finding a link between on thing and another doesn't necessarily means it causes that thing. Probably more of the lake of nutrients that were causing IQ effects than the fluoride ;].

QBsutekh137 November 7 2009 5:49 PM EST

Jir, I was one of the first to say I didn't understand why Fluoride is in the water. Who are you trying to convince? None of my three previous posts (to yours) said, "YAY! Fluoride! Put it in everything and make it required!!!!!" I was mainly asking for a citation on the the fact that fluoride is a "massive cause" to infant death (what Nightstrike said). Because it isn't a massive cause of infant death from anything I can find, nor anything listed in your lengthy, informative post. Fl doesn't contribute to SIDS, and the ADA's stance is mainly about a cosmetic issue (granted, still important when when we don't need this stuff in the water anyway).

NS never wrote anything back, so I still await a citation.

I'm trying to apply rational thinking and research to finding out more about this. Finding real articles and studies about real mortality issues. And, by and large, I feel that I have already found enough that I don't understand why fluoride is in the water, but not enough to care. There is a far larger chance of me getting hit by lightning tomorrow (yes, in November in Wisconsin) than there is of Fluoride killing me. Perspective. Do you have any idea of how many toxins are all around you at all times, and do you have any idea of how resilient the human form is?

If you think this Fluoride stuff is that big of an issue, then you must do the following immediately:

-- Do not eat any seafood whatsoever. It could have mercury or other toxins in it that CANNOT be removed from the body. They accumulate over time until you die. Sure, you might still live to see 90 years, but you can't be too careful, can you?
-- Do not eat anything with risk of severe allergic reactions, because you _could_ develop an allergy at any time. I developed asthma-inducing allergies when I was 30+, and if I had developed an allergy to peanuts, I could be dead while writing this. So, avoid peanuts, etc.
-- Only drink distilled water, and only distill it yourself. Distillation is easy, so there is no excuse for you to be risking toxins (or trusting someone else to have removed said toxins). Get water from a stream you know is clean, boil it, and drink the condensate you can grab from the vapor you catch. Alternately, distill rainwater if you live someplace where you can reasonably assume there is nothing wrong with the air (again, trust no one.)
-- No inoculations, no blood transfers, no fluid transfer of any kind. Who knows what is in that stuff.
-- All food must be avoided unless you grow/raise it yourself, or can process the hell out of it such that nothing bad could be left. This means avoiding genetic modifications, pesticides, hormones, and again, you can only trust you, so do NOT trust "organic" labels. The government or other local governing bodies may be using that label maliciously to control you.

I mean this stuff. If your words and tone are to be taken seriously, then please, DO SO. Take it seriously, man! For you and for anyone else you are responsible for (spouse, kids, etc.) If you believe it, stand by it, and follow the rabbit hole as far as it goes. Anything less would be hypocrisy, and judging by your posts and CMs, you don't strike me as a hypocrite.

three4thsforsaken November 7 2009 5:57 PM EST

It's a battle for our bodily fluids.

Good thing I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.

Zenai November 7 2009 7:01 PM EST

Man-o-Man what a Oceanliner of worms has been opened here!

Ladies and Gentlemen I will submit only one thing and I will hope this will allay some thoughts and feelings on the subject.

This in comparison to other issues is barely a blip on the screen of problems the world faces right now let alone individuals at large.



My personal thoughts on this are simple:

I have been ingesting this stuff along with many others for years. I am not freaking dying Nor do I have any problems health wise as a result in ingesting it. I'm in pretty good health. I eat, sleep, work, play with my kids, spend time with my wife and, so far, nothing has affected me when I drink water. Bottom line I think that there is a variety of vastly larger problems to deal with and I choose to put them higher on my priority list as a result.

If you are so worried about Fluoride intake then prepare for it and do what is necessary to help lessen said possible intake. Install filters in your home, use tooth polish instead of fluoridated toothpaste, and finally keep water purification tablets with you for when you have to ingest water in public(be sure these are the type that do not contain fluoride, and that can purify even fluoride out of water yes they exist folks).

Just a few thoughts :-)

Joel November 7 2009 7:13 PM EST

I read everything posted, I feel like thats a great achievement! Anyway, if fluoridated water can cause that many problems, imagine what all the other chemicals put in the water can do to you! Even more scary; did you know that there are trace amounts of numerous medications dissolved in most water supplies? Check out the studies on that! Those medications can cause much more numerous and serious problems than Fluoridation. Thats why I only drink filtered water. I trust my body to take care of what little danger is left after the filtering process. My family has been drinking filtered water for years now, and since I started about 1 year ago, my immune system has gotten stronger, and now I don't get sick all the time! Might just be a coincidence though, heheh.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 7 2009 7:23 PM EST

I have never heard of any "problems" as you call them.
It seems that the only people who warn about these things are the same who lobby against pesticides and such and usually end up being ridiculed on Penn & Teller.
I'd still rather take my chances than wrap myself in cotton wool and spend all my life worrying about content of things already declared safe and not living my life.

Adminedyit November 9 2009 3:30 PM EST

hehe i love these little rants.

>Why are people OK with being fed a POISON??
CL2 is a poison, it works pretty damned good at killing off things in water that make you sick (cholera anyone?)

did you actually do any of your own research on this before you just started spouting off? CDC lists nicotine as a poison too but wow you can buy that over the counter can't you.

>I also just recently found out that something like 90% of the United States Fluoridates it's water
Please show me the link where you got this information from.

>I discovered this knowledge while up in Seattle and went to get a cup of water and it smelled sooooo nasty and chemically, and my friend started telling me about fluoridation and stuff...
Flouride is odorless and tasteless

here try looking at these links
http://www.health.state.ny.us/prevention/dental/fluoridation/safety.htm

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/fluoride/q_and_a.asp

http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/teeth/fluoride.html

i head the water dept for the community i live in and i love it when i get to hear things like this, seriously where did you get your info from? you have no idea the stringent DOH, EPA, DEC regulations and constant 24 hour monitoring and testing that goes into making something that fully 90% of the U.S. population takes for granted. jeebus just please don't tell me that you're one of those bottled water drinkers (read the label odds are its reprocessed municipal water)

>Just do some google browsing, you might just be a part of 90% of the country unknowingly ingesting a POISON.
again CL2 is a poison used extensively in WWII it killed thousands of people, and its also mandated to be used in water treatment plants because it leaves a detectable residual in the water (free chlorine residual) but again like fluoride, Cl2 has limits as to how much of it can be in water.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002vDE">Fluoride... Huh???</a>