I hate to bring up the exbow again but... (in General)


QBRanger November 15 2009 10:41 AM EST

This is getting real pathetic.

Vs Team Rocket in ranged:

3 / 6 / 212,143

He hits me 3 times in 6 tries in ranged. After these hits my strength is under 100k and my damage is under 300k a hit.

But that is less of the problem than this....

His plus to hit is 85 from his exbow. He gets about +30 (estimated) from Leadership.

He has 4.5M dex vs my 6.5M dex.

I have +205 named DBs.

When all it really takes to change the entire battle is 1 or 2 hits, why is it so easy to hit my tank with its very high DBs and 1.5x dex?

This is getting very frustrating for many tanks who CM me about this part of the game.

Heck.

Even novice with his exbow and 1.5M dex manages to hit my tank 50% of the time in battles, and 1 hit with 12M strength lowers my strength from 8M to 500k. With a massive loss of damage.

This item sucks, just really sucks sucks sucks.

With such imbalances in the game, do people wonder why we are not gaining people and great people are leaving?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2009 11:11 AM EST

Sweet, I like it.. Counter to USD..

QBRanger November 15 2009 11:15 AM EST

And you really think all the exbows out there are not USD backed?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2009 11:20 AM EST

nah. but im pretty sure nem's is under 100 million net worth. Which is well within reason for a non usd player to achieve. Compared to the 200-300 million net worth elven long bow's and such out there.

Windwalker November 15 2009 12:02 PM EST

To me it seems this item will make a tank setup obsolete. Im sure larger tank teams than mine get disgusted every time someone who doesn't last 3 rounds straps one of these on. Instant world beater. Just keep pumping the xbow util the tank is toast! Doesn't matter how big the tank or stats of opponents or gear. Keep pumping it up at a very minimal cost and down they go. Anyone can say whatever they want here.I say this item is broken or OP. Call "it" what you will. I know of no other item in this game you can just click your way over a certain class of fighter.

AdminShade November 15 2009 12:27 PM EST

Why is this item so overpowered and yet so cheap to buy?

three4thsforsaken November 15 2009 12:40 PM EST

I do see a problem in how efficient the exbow is. But until I see a somewhat valid exp counter to tanks I do not see the exbow being nerfed.

I think the real problem is that evasion got nerfed too hard. Without a decent and versatile exp counter like evasion we've seen a rampant growth in the general size and effectiveness of the few USD bows in the game.

Those bows must have a non-USD counter, Jon has stated very clearly in the past that this is what he believes. Take a look at all his evasion post. Take a look at all his evasion post and all his ranged nerfs in the past? Now the question we should be asking is, do we want that counter to be a trained skill or an item with a hard cap? Or what other alternatives are there? CB will always have some sort of non-USD counter for USD tanks so instead of complaining how this counter is too strong, we need to start thinking about what other counters can exist.

In other words, I do not see the exbow being nerfed without some sort of alternative being introduced. I think it should some sort of experience based counter, like evasion. Before being nerfed evasion was kind of messed up on it's scaling, but I feel a buff inbetween where it is now and where it used to be would be the alternative that CB desperately needs.

It's worth pointing out that I do not view GA as a versatile tank counter. It forces one to commit to multiple minions and a series of enchanters to be effective. Both evasion and the exbow are not even half as committal.

Zenai November 15 2009 12:40 PM EST

Ranger it is perfectly fine to bring it up again! I was about to do the same myself so people will not forget this item needs to be rescaled in some way to be a better fit for CB.

Kefeck no offense but seriously bro if there was an item that could totally pwn your char in one hit you wouldn't be at least a little frustrated?

USD honestly has no true bearing on this situation. How is this truly different than any other game where players use Real World money to augment their personal entertainment?

Would you tell someone like Hatch the same thing? Afterall he does not use USD so his hard work would mean what in this instance? Nothing or would you say otherwise? What makes it so different? It has been proven time and time again USD does not equal the top ranks hard work, perseverance and dedication to a purpose driven by a set goal does.

It is a IMBALANCED item for the game overall there is no way to say it is not when the evidence is shown in the way it has multiple times!


Windwalker I could not have said it any better myself!

Multiple times I have thrown up my stats (which are even higher than Rangers) and shown just how Thrown Off this item really is and I got what? Criticism on my strat and told maybe I should get another minion, add more to my DBs or get more AC. In other words change my strat to fit or attempt to balance out 1 stupid imbalanced piece of junk in this game. Are you serious folks?

At the Time 16.1-4 Mil STR, 8.5-7 Mil Dex +180 DBs and I still got reduced to under 700K Str in one hit a fourth of the time and the rest -3 Mil STR and you guys still think this is a balanced Item? What a load of crap is that?!?

Shade: You do the economic reports I would think you have a better insight in to that question than the rest of us.

Zenai November 15 2009 12:45 PM EST

Good points 3/4ths. Two people come to mind on the subject of an Alternative idea for the high damage bows in the game....Tal and Nayab. Both of them had some good ideas Reflect and Physical Missile Evasion were two of the better ideas imho. I cant remember the threads but I am sure someone could find them.

QBRanger November 15 2009 12:49 PM EST

DMON BOW OF POWER [6x25000] (+300) worth $429,759,776 owned by SuperHD (Vectoidz)
The Lunatic [6x25000] (+234) worth $321,268,749 owned by QBRanger (Heroes)
Chainfire of Truth [6x30003] (+101) worth $249,538,488 owned by Zenai (FuerGrissa ost Drauka)
Long Arm of the Law [6x18000] (+175) worth $201,569,550 owned by miteke (Law)
An Elven Bazooka [6x12000] (+188) worth $166,751,155 owned by Picasso (Guernica)

These are the top 5 ELBs.

All get pwned by GA. Esp RoS characters.

So there IS a xp counter to the ELB. A very very good one!!!

And for all those without USD weapons, what do we tell them. People like Windwalker. Just suck it up?

We really want to grow the player base, but with crap items like this, who would want to play?

Unless you use this abusive and stupid item.

Yes, I have tried, many times, to get Jon involved in what should this weapon do. Or even try to get him involved in how to try to balance things.

However, all my CM's have been ignored, well before my posts on the subject started.

But this is incredibly stupid.

An item with 1/3 to 1/4th the NW, with less than 1/2 the + of my or others DBs and with 2/3 to 1/2 the dex hitting and nerfing tanks into uselessness.

And please get off the evasion was nerfed into nothingness. It is still very valuable, but people are into the +/- thing too much. Reducing hits from 4 to 2 is 1/2 damage. Something one cannot do vs DD spells.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] November 15 2009 12:51 PM EST


"I hate to bring up the exbow again but.."

No, you don't.

QBRanger November 15 2009 12:54 PM EST

Actually Bast I do.

I wished this would be fixed so I would not have to bring this up again. I had hoped that the last "patch" would have helped, but alas, it really did nothing.

You know why? The exbow users just upped the x on the weapon a couple thousand to get over the break point for insta-nerfage.

So what did the latest change really do? Nothing but make people pour a bit more USD into their exbows. Yes, a real help?

But thanks for your insightful post into the exbow subject.

Zenai November 15 2009 12:55 PM EST

QBBast 12:51 PM EST

"I hate to bring up the exbow again but.."

No, you don't."

We all know this Bast but just because of this fact does that mean this subject should be discarded? I would hardly think so.

(CB1)WFP November 15 2009 12:56 PM EST

i like my exbow and think it is fine the way it is

Zenai November 15 2009 12:59 PM EST

WFP: Let me find an insta-nerf item for your strat and see if you wouldn't change your tune on the subject......

(CB1)WFP November 15 2009 1:33 PM EST

there probably isnt a particular item but any good strat will beat my crappy one...lol

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2009 1:47 PM EST

"I think the real problem is that evasion got nerfed too hard."

i agree with this and think that the dex/evasion link was just too much!

Zenai November 15 2009 1:49 PM EST

That was part of my point WFP. There no other Items in this game with the same All-In/All-Out as the Exbow/AxBow. Right now the main focus of many is the ExBow but I must resubmit to remind people that the AxBow works in exactly the same way as the ExBow just for a different stat.

This is an Imbalance that seriously needs to be attended to. I'm sure that if there was a weapon that completely Nerfed Magic Damage, HP, or Magic Offense/Defense players would be clamoring to get it changed. I'm guessing that if it does not affect someones strat they simply dismiss everything else as whining and have the whatever/nevermind attitude.

QBRanger November 15 2009 1:51 PM EST

Whether or not evasion was over or underpowered did not matter since the exbow was a constant during these times.

WRT evasion, I think and a lot of others agree the AoF was a huge problem. With its 3% per + bonus that was too much for tanks to overcome.

However, if evasion gets boosted, will the exbow get its proper nerf? I think not as during evasions uber power time it was unchanged.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 15 2009 2:04 PM EST

"And for all those without USD weapons, what do we tell them. People like Windwalker. Just suck it up?"

Thanks so much Ranger. I don't know how many times I've made this statement and it seemed like no one was listening. Thanks for finally showing me at least one person was.

QBRanger November 15 2009 2:07 PM EST

Titan,

I have stated this for years.

Look through my previous exbow posts as well as my post when evasion was so uber.

I had thought ENC and NW-PR was supposed to diminish the USD influence in CB. And obliterate the need for this weapon.

If ENC is not doing its job properly, then fix that instead of keeping this pathetic bane on CB.

DaH4mburglar November 15 2009 2:46 PM EST


You certainly do a lot of complaining. I was laughing when you said Jon ignored your CM's. Maybe he's tired of all your complaints as well? Continuing on that point, I don't think he would suddenly have a change of heart on the exbow because another forum post, but who knows.

I guess your response will be something about me being a NUB and you know more? But I don't really care, it's a game, relax.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 November 15 2009 2:47 PM EST

This is a discussion of the ExBow, not Ranger. Let us keep it as such.

RaptorX November 15 2009 2:51 PM EST

This is not just about money, DX advantage and other XP expenditures can't make this item weaker -- since it only needs one hit to do a huge difference and the opponents ST is gone, never to return. It doesn't take one third or half the ST at max, it takes like 7/8th the ST with one hit. Those numbers are just a guess, but you get the idea. Huge DBs and 1.5 DX should allow Ranger to be hit only few times (if at all) and one hit shouldn't nerf most of Ranger's hard earned XP into DX and ST in one hit. That just makes sense.

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] November 15 2009 3:04 PM EST

ranger gets beaten so the thing that beats him must get nerfed

there is nothing wrong with the exbow, mine still misses and i got alot of dx and the exbow doesnt do much damage at all so stop complaining

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:07 PM EST

Perhaps if you would use Leadership you would not miss.

But I do not know what your + on the exbow is.

But it is not just me who gets beaten, destroyed by it. Many other tanks do. Is it fair to them as well?

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] November 15 2009 3:11 PM EST

mine is +126 and i don't use that amulet because im an uc-er it will kill my uc

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:14 PM EST

Forget the amulet, use the booties. They will help you hit with the exhow as well as increase the damage from your SF.

+30 is not that expensive and gives 15% more damage to your SF and 15% more strength and PTH to your tank.

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:15 PM EST

And the amulet/boots go on the first minion, not the tank who wields the bow.

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] November 15 2009 3:18 PM EST

don't try to be nice to me now that wont help you now, exbows shouldnt be nerfed but boosted and all other tanks that get beaten need to relook at there strat

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 November 15 2009 3:20 PM EST

That doesn't even make sense.


Anyways, a little conversation in chat led me to ask, why doesn't anyone use the AxBow as a counter to the ExBow?

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:22 PM EST

I am trying to show you that your usage of the exbow is poor and not optimal.

Usage of the proper items makes the exbow that much more powerful. Just because you fail to use a proper strategy does not mean that item is bad.

Just that you do not use it correctly.

It is a highly abusive item .

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:29 PM EST

"Anyways, a little conversation in chat led me to ask, why doesn't anyone use the AxBow as a counter to the ExBow? "

Why use the axbow when the exbow will take your opponents strength down, lowering the damage therefore lowering the drain?

And as we see, dexterity means little with leadership out there.

Also, all it basically takes is 1 hit to lower your opponents damage enough. First round if you hit with an exbow, the battle is/can be essentially over. So even if you hit with an axbow, who cares, your character is toast anyway.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 November 15 2009 3:31 PM EST

You'd need to pair the AxBow with DB 's of course, but this would be a pretty good way of ensuring that you dodge every shot of the ExBow.

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:40 PM EST

Z and I have a large dex advantage over exbow users but manage to get hit more often than not.

I doubt an axbow would change the course of the battle.

Why use an axbow when the exbow does things so much better.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 November 15 2009 3:44 PM EST

Well, certainly having an advantage to the tune of a few million to 0 wouldn't hurt your chances :)

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:48 PM EST

But why nerf dexterity when you can nerf strength instead?

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 November 15 2009 3:51 PM EST

If they cannot hit you at all you've attained the same result, plus maybe open it up for you to get in a hit or two more per round.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2009 3:54 PM EST

reason to use Axbow, evasive wall.

QBRanger November 15 2009 3:54 PM EST

Personally,

I would rather nerf their strength, which in turn makes their exbow less useful.

Than play the dex game where it is proven with little dex, plus a lot of PTH including leadership one can still hit and drain 15+M strength in 1 hit.

QBRanger November 15 2009 4:11 PM EST

How many evasion, dex based, walls are there? Really out there?

Guardian November 15 2009 4:21 PM EST

An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x1642] (+0) 15,291,206 :)

will build mine till it reaches x6000 +100

oh yeah o love top guys crying Exbow rocks

Wraithlin November 15 2009 4:21 PM EST

What if the STR lost from the ExBow came back during the fight, say 33% a round of what you have lost.

Round 1 you get hit for 1 mil. You regenerate 333k so you're only down 667k for the start of round 2.

Round 2 they miss you, you regenerate 222k and are now down 444k.

Round 3 another 1 mil hit, you regenerate a little under 500k so you're down around 930k for round 3.

Once you get to melee, 4-5 rounds and your STR is back to hitting something again relatively hard.

Of course the percent return or whatever can be debated adjusted, but the idea is my intent here.

QBJohnnywas November 15 2009 5:00 PM EST

I've just rented Jir's Bolt Of Nether, an exbow with +150.

The only tank team it lets me beat is Heroes. Everyone else up around here dodges nicely.

Meanwhile I lose half the other teams I can beat whilst using my mageseeker.

I have to admit I've never used one at this level. It's not quite the gamebreaker I would have expected from the posts that have populated the forums over the past couple of years. It's certainly not instant win against tank teams.

QBRanger November 15 2009 5:04 PM EST

JW,

Perhaps if you used Leadership on a minion in front you would hit a lot more.

But I have 205 DBs and a lot more dex, and yet you still hit me.

QBRanger November 15 2009 5:06 PM EST

And I see you beat Z now and stalemate with LR.

So perhaps you want to change you statement that it only lets you beat Heroes.

But again, use Leadership on a minion in front, at least BoF and you will hit a lot more.

QBJohnnywas November 15 2009 5:08 PM EST

It only lets me beat Z sometimes, and I've managed stalemates with LR before. I'm interested in how I manage to hit the 2nd biggest DBs though, but not smaller boots.

Lochnivar November 15 2009 5:10 PM EST

I think any suggestions of redressing balance should be careful to consider how damage actually works here in CB land.

1) it takes 4 time the STR to double the damage output, or in exbow term if you drain 75% of a target's STR he'll still hit at half power.... now with Zen's say 20+ STR that means there is a chunk of drainage necessary for the item to be viable.

2) If weapon "a" has sufficient x to double the damage output of weapon "b" at a given STR level, then "a" will double the damage of "b" ANY strength level. So let's not kid ourselves here, the exbow is not a USD suppressant.

(no I don't know the ratios to double damage via the x, I suspect it may vary by weapon, big 5 notwithstanding)

And just out of curiousity, are we taking the stance here that an exbow shouldn't nuke tanks, or that it shouldn't nuke takes with 15mil str?

QBRanger November 15 2009 5:21 PM EST

My stance has been and will be that the drain should not completely nuke a tanks strength, 1M or 15M.

It should be more like an AMF drain. A lot of the drain should be in the 50% range with some outliers into the lower and upper regions of percentage.

As you state, a 75% drain will lower damage by over 50%. Is that not a significant amount? Or is 100%+ the only thing exbow users will accept?

Also, with Leadership, it is far too easy to hit with weapons now. And while it takes me 20+ hits to win a battle, all an exbow user needs is 1-3 to win.

Also, to JW,

Your character in not setup to use the exbow to its maximum effectiveness. You have little magic protection and rely on the Mageseeker. When you changed to an exbow, of course you lost people off your fightlist.

But use Leadership and see how many more tanks you destroy.

Lochnivar November 15 2009 5:36 PM EST

"As you state, a 75% drain will lower damage by over 50%."

Actually I said exactly 50% (certainly not over)

And in Zen's case you are still looking at a 2mil+ MPB

Personally I favour a drain which has the target's STR on asymptotic approach to zero.... I figure if you and your beefy exbow double and triple hit for 5 rounds of ranged then the axe bearer you are shooting should have no STR left.

One thing to note with regards to the exbow vs dodging comparison:
The exbow should be able to reduce damage more than evasion and DBs... IF it is able to hit a sufficient number of times... for the same reason as a 3pt shot in basketball is more valuable than a lay-up. (ie, dbs are automatic, exbow drain is not)

Lochnivar November 15 2009 5:39 PM EST

sorry for the double,

"all an exbow user needs is 1-3 to win. "

I'd say that is more of 1-3 to not lose... the exbow is not a kill weapon and if they don't land any other damage they aren't winning.

QBRanger November 15 2009 5:58 PM EST

Loch,

Most people using an exbow of course do not have that as their only damage ability.

So if they make a tank do near 0 damage, it is a loss.

MissingNo November 15 2009 6:17 PM EST

You act like the more you bring it up the faster it'll make Jon wanna change it.

QBRanger November 15 2009 6:21 PM EST

I would hope he would decide to finally fix a broken item that is making more people than just me question this game.

QBJohnnywas November 15 2009 6:22 PM EST

So, a +150 exbow isn't that useful because I'm not using Leadership?

So either it's broken or it's not. If you have to set up the team a specific way then it's not the Uber item you're claiming.

Or are you looking at Leadership as being broken?

QBRanger November 15 2009 6:28 PM EST

I have stated my opinion on Leadership in the past.

Alone it is fine.

When you combine it with an item that bases its entire ability on being able to hit 1 or 2 times the entire battle, yes it is too powerful.

The exbow is too powerful when it hits and Leadership gives it that ability.

But just think of this.

You need 1 or 2 hits to nerf my 14M hp, 8M strength tank. But you have less dexterity than I do, and that exbow has 55 less PTH than my DBs.

And yet you hit me enough to beat me. Normally it takes me 4-5 rounds to beat you. But with that exbow and all my defenses, you, wihtout Leadership still hit me.

That has to show you something is wrong, no?

QBJohnnywas November 15 2009 6:32 PM EST

How do I hit you? That's what I don't understand. The exbow's PTH shouldn't get past your DBs so am I getting a dex hit here, despite having the smaller dex?

QBRanger November 15 2009 6:39 PM EST

I guess a 60 BTH with my dex advantage give you 30 or 40% chance to hit.

And with 4 rounds available to you, you hit 1 or 2 times, enough for me to lose.

If you would use Leadership, you would likely hit more often and hit others even more.

When there is such a +/- item in the game, it is incredulous that it is not harder to get that 1 hit you need to win.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2009 6:40 PM EST

I don't see why you are complaining about leadership Ranger as at the very least against me the only benefit I am getting from leadership is the bonus to my str damage. The only way I am hitting you is through my dex (which should be worth something you would think especially when you complained about how people couldn't hit with it back before evasion was changed). It wouldn't even matter if I added another +100 to my exbow as the actual change in my cth would be nil and another +100 would add a LOT more to my NW, far more than I will be able to afford for a long time as I am not using USD to buy money.

QBRanger November 15 2009 6:52 PM EST

If you are not getting more PTH, the strength bonus is giving you more damage.

Which causes more leech.

But Nem, you are remiss in comparing my complaints about old evasion to my problem with the exbow.

If you remember, when evasion gave defensive dexterity, the AoF boosted the defensive dexterity far more than tanks could keep up.

Also, when evasion gave defensive dexterity, it was almost impossible to hit evasion minions more than 1 time/round. But with the exbow 1-2 times the entire battle is all you need.

When you need to hit 15+ times to win vs 1+ for the exbow, yes, things are quite different.

But vs you Nem, it takes me 3-4 battles to beat you now. It would be nice to see a mage leeching item that does the same and see all the forum posts then.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2009 6:55 PM EST

"It would be nice to see a mage leeching item that does the same and see all the forum posts then."

it would be nice to see a mage item that allowed usd input to uber boost damage high enough to require such a counter and see all the forum posts then!

Wraithlin November 15 2009 6:57 PM EST

Is there a reason not to use an Exbow on your tank that is getting nerfed by it himself. If someone is hitting you 1-3 times in range, and that's what is beating you, but you can hit him 2-3 times per round, it would make sense to me to just put an ExBow on yourself and nerf their ExBow long before you get yours nerfed. Then just pull out your Melee weapon after you've nerfed them and go to town.

On the other hand, unless i'm mistaken, PL is the counter to the ExBow. "If an enemy minion's Phantom Link absorbs the damage caused by the Exbow, the ST drain is applied to the minion that absorbed the damage"

So just use a Wall/Tank strat and you can avoid ExBow nerfing your tank. Especially if your Tank has enough DBs to only get hit 1-3 times it should be easy to come up with a wall that can handle that.

Unless we're back to refusing to change your strat when you've met your counter and instead just argue that your strat shouldn't have a counter and nerf everything that beats you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2009 6:58 PM EST

I wonder how effective the EXBow is facing a team that uses a massive EC?

three4thsforsaken November 15 2009 7:00 PM EST

Personally, I like how evasion no longer has defensive dex. I just don't like how not training dex puts 40% penalty on the skill. Take that off and we'll have a skill that nicely counters USD but doesn't nerf tanks in general like it did before.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2009 7:03 PM EST

I still want an XP efficient way to counter Tanks unreducable-by-anything-else-bar-the-AoI base chance to hit. That doesn't involve a non Tank wasting XP trying to train DEX.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 15 2009 7:09 PM EST

Dog shot Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1385577]
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1616472]
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1366003]
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1302703]
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1443760]

You're complaining that less than 1% of the playerbase has a counter to this why?

Let's put it into perspective....

Attacked by 7 opponents
Attacker Won Lost Drew SM Win Pct Avg. Rds Last Fight
Blightning (F) (+) 0 1 0 0 0.00 6.0 6:57 PM EST
The Travelling Man (F) (+) 6 0 0 0 100.00 36.5 6:29 PM EST
Incompetent Duo (F) (+) 67 0 0 0 100.00 16.3 6:02 PM EST
Team Rocket (F) (+) 1 0 0 0 100.00 15.0 5:45 PM EST
Konoha's Finest (F) (+) 85 0 0 0 100.00 7.7 5:33 PM EST
Anbhas (F) (+) 0 1 0 0 0.00 4.0 12:58 PM EST
just a jigoro (F) (+) 0 1 0 0 0.00 6.0 8:54 AM EST
Totals: 159 3 0 0 98.15


(I hope that comes out right)

You're being actively beaten by 2 people in the game and neither of them are using an exbow.

Don't like what the exbow does to you? Adapt and overcome. There are plenty of ways to counter the exbow.

"Wah wah wah it acts as the developer designed it to act, and instead of countering it and moving on, I refuse to counter it and whine about it when nothing is even effecting me!"

You keep going on about how it's the only thing in the game with a certain kind of "power".

DECAY!!!

DECAY!!!

DECAY!!!

It's comparative to someone arguing that decay is overpowered, but refusing to train AMF...

For a long time I thought the item was overpowered as well, hell I own a top 3 one. After presenting my arguments, and LISTENING to other people's argument, I realized that it's just another mechanic that functions (NOT BROKEN: See-> FUNCTIONS) at a certain level, and if you don't want it to drain you, DEAL WITH IT. Train HP, Equip some ARMOR as opposed to pure offense boosters. Change your strategy! I've used the exbow to it's full extent, and let me tell you, the item doesn't do much against a team that is prepared for it.

Much like AMF/Decay.

9/10 I would agree with you Ranger, but seriously you can't give the same argument (that hasn't worked yet) and hope to get a different outcome.


iBananco [Blue Army] November 15 2009 7:14 PM EST

The only two ways to stop an exbow 100% are EC and ridiculously heavy armor.

QBRanger November 15 2009 7:14 PM EST

Tell me please,

How do I overcome the exbow?

Please tell me what my strategy is doing wrong.

I tried PL to stop the first drain and it did not help.

BTW, Nem and novice beat me but do not attack me since I get a rare draw/win.

But again, please tell me what to do.

And it is not just me, there are other tanks out there that hate this item.

It is easy to stop decay, but then again, decay does not kill you in 1 hit.

But please tell me what to do to stop this infernal stupid weapon.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 15 2009 7:22 PM EST

Well, for starters your current setup stops me from using the exbow against you. Considering not a single exbow user regularly attacks you, I would say your doing just fine.

I think you're just sad because you think you are entitled to fight THEM, and that's what's really going on here...

But all that aside, if you are sad that people are hitting you via 40% dex cth, pump your dex instead of HP/STR (retraining sucks though, I get it) and work on lowering that %. Isn't that how almost every other mechanic in the game works?

Considering a person needs >3% of your total HP to get a full drain effect, at 8m HP that's 240,000 a hit. I have the largest X exbow in the game, and I've never broken that mark.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 15 2009 7:26 PM EST

Last lines vanished upon posting.
---------------------------------

So that being said, 1-2 hits is very very very unlikely anyways. I would bet money if you unequipped and whoever is renting my exbow attacked you, it would take a lot more than 2 hits.

QBRanger November 15 2009 7:40 PM EST

Johnny Was shot Dog with A Bolt of Nether [299999]
Dog looks weaker!

One hit all my strength gone. Simple enough. He hits, I lose.

I cover his PTH, so he is getting dex PTH. How do I defend that except for a lot more dex. I already have 3+M base and 6+M total.

What else do you suggest I do?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 15 2009 7:46 PM EST

I suggest you smile in knowing that he doesn't use an exbow. That's like whining if Zenai equipped my bow and "got there" of course he is going to "get there" he is using a huge tank much like yourself to do damage. Good thing he can't do that and expect to beat everyone else.

So smile! You want to borrow my elb for awhile? I bet you'll get the full effect vs other tanks too... but in doing that you'll be sacrificing your damage dealer.

Likely not something that would benefit you in the end.

lostling November 15 2009 7:51 PM EST

How about we change the mechanics of exbows and axbows
let exbows reduce a % of physical damage based off user damage vs target hp and let axbows reduce a certain amount of pth based off user damage vs target hp also

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 15 2009 8:01 PM EST

Nem can train all of my tanks ST in 2 hits, with get this, only 400k ST. Yeah that's right... all my ST gone in 2 hits with 400k ST... Hmm, yeah, I guess there's still quite a problem here....

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 15 2009 8:01 PM EST

drain all my tank's*

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] November 15 2009 8:08 PM EST

All of this makes me wonder if evasion, leadership, and DX dodging isn't busted. At lower levels, such as in tournies, you have more DX you almost always dodge attacks. But at the higher levels you say that you still get hit regularly despite large DX advantages and enough evasion to neuter their PTH?

Also, yeah, I have to agree that Exbows are pretty seriously busted. It's not just the fact that it's a counter to NW, but it's also a counter to XP. These tank teams train millions of levels of strength and lose it all to 1 or 2 hits? This is a situation of NW from the exbow countering experience. I thought the exbow was supposed to be a NW counter instead? And the tank team doesn't just lose the strength experience during the rest of the fight- their DX, AC, and perhaps even HP become practically worthless as well since the tank becomes a paperweight.

Just change the exbow. We're all tired of the complaints, but we would not be hearing them over and over again if there was not a problem in the first place. Try one of these things:
a)a new armor that regenerates st/dx every round, say 20%.
or b) a new ability that regenerates st/dx every round
c) cap the exbow drain at 25% of max ST every hit. That way 4 hits are needed to neuter the tank
d) don't let the exbow drain the last 10% of the ST of the tank.
e) introduce a skill that reduces stat drainage to 1/5th of what it was and requires 25% of hp to work.
f) only let the first strike of the exbow drain. After that hit it targets the next highest ST minion. If only 1 minion, it continues to hit but without lowering of stats.

Any of those would potentially fix this situation. Yes, USD is a problem. But if it's a worry then add new spells. I love the sound of a spell that reduces or retaliates specifically missile damage. Make counters for NW that use experience, not just smaller amounts of NW.

QBRanger November 15 2009 8:31 PM EST

If USD is a problem then change ENC and/or NW-PR.

If the ELB is the problem, titrate it to the proper damage.

Address the problem, before more respected people leave.

Little Anthony November 15 2009 8:34 PM EST

Bigger DB?

QBRanger November 15 2009 8:36 PM EST

And to those people that think I am railing since someone beats me, pfft.

I get pwned by RoS GA characters and believe GA is perfectly fine. Perhaps a bit powerful due to the lowered overall damage, but still a nice counter to all the missile damage out there.

But I rarely hear that GA is a great counter to the ELB. I keep reading that the exbow is.

How about I get a weapon that lowers RBF damage in 1 hit to nothing? Or magic damage? O my, the posts that would occur then.

QBRanger November 15 2009 8:38 PM EST

"Bigger DB? "

If you would read the above posts, it is the puny dex BTH they have that allows them to hit me 1 or 2 times. Which is all they basically need.

My DBs apparently cover their PTH.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2009 8:54 PM EST

i find it ironic that the main problem i have had with elb and hal teams has always been the 100 bth. that same "guarantee" when it comes to hitting is also their biggest bane. i think that is likely working as designed though.

Godpanda November 15 2009 9:59 PM EST

xI doubt people are leaving because the Exbow is broken, and only for that reason. I wanted to be clear here. Maybe there are, but there are TONS, (yes, so many they must be measured by the set of 2,000) that could be throwing players off.

Using the "exbow makes people want to quit" argument is silly. So lets not anyone use it unless they want to bring up some facts with it (as in, list of NUBs who swear they quit solely because some guy with an exbow did a dance on their face)

A bit more back on track... Where are all these dominant Exbow teams? I'm totally with Jiraiya on this subject lately. It does one thing and it does it very well. Just like the ELB. Just like GA. Just like, to a lesser degree, DM. If they hurt you that bad, overcome it. But, really, stop whining.

QBRanger November 15 2009 10:20 PM EST

I would love to overcome it, really.

Please let me know how.

The ELB does its job great. But is quite vulnerable to GA, and AC and DBs and the exbow.

As far as people leaving, a few have due to this and other "bugs" in the game.

If the exbow is so good, then why not have a DD leeching bow or a RBF leeeching bow?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2009 10:24 PM EST

"If the exbow is so good, then why not have a DD leeching bow or a RBF leeeching bow?"

are you also willing to give mages the ability to boost damage and number of hits through usd?

QBRanger November 15 2009 10:34 PM EST

Mages have something better-the NSC.

Would you willing to be able to give tanks the ability to hit no matter what their dex is? Tanks can miss, mages never do.

I still fail to see the reason for such a weapon that in a couple hits can destroy a tanks ability to do damage. And therefore end the battle. All in the first or second round of battle.

While it only effect a couple of targets for me, others I know, including clanmaates get blended royally by this item.

Again, if it is a USD influence problem, then fix ENC. It was designed to counter USD. Make it do its job.

But to have an item that insta wins is counter to all that I love of CB. But the longer this garbage continues, the less of the love that is left. And I know others feel the same way.

kevlar November 15 2009 10:49 PM EST

"Tanks can miss, mages never do."

I've never liked that reasoning between tanks and mages... because big tanks don't miss that much if at all and also they hit multiple times... mages uno.

QBRanger November 15 2009 10:54 PM EST

Kev,

You would be surprised.

Z misses my tank about 1/3rd the time.

But then again, big tanks need massive weapons. Look at non-usd tanks. They miss a bit. Ask Windwalker if he misses a lot with his non-USD backed weapon.

And yet, tanks like him get destroyed by the exbow. They are too poor to afford DBs as well as a decent weapon. So they get hit multiple times with an item that sucks their strength to below 0 in 1 or 2 rounds.

If it is a NW problem, make the designes in place do their job.

kevlar November 15 2009 11:13 PM EST

not trying to go on a tangent, but you guys are 2 huge tanks, both with big DBs. I did say 'not that much if at all'.. 2/3rds is still not bad, and how many of the times that he does hit does he multi hit 2,3,4 x's or more? If he only hits you one time only when he is able to land then I can respect what you mean... but I highly doubt that is the case?

Zenai November 15 2009 11:17 PM EST

Fe,Jir,AoD: Anytime 1 Item can Nerf an entire team there is a problem. Let me make a weapon that Can Nerf any particular thing in 1 or 2 hits and let's see the community outcry then. So stop saying the "Your Just Whining Because You Can Be Beaten Crap" because it is substantiated whether you like it or not.

As far as people leaving it is not just the problem of the ExBow it is just another straw on the haystack of problems and you know it. It is the involvement of the Devs in fixing problems that the community bring up(NS and Fex are trying but I have only seen Jon a couple of times in the past few months). Get enough of that and yes people are leaving because they feel as if they have been abandoned or that the Devs just don't give a damn so why should they stay.

GatemaN, and a few others: Are you freaking serious? I have to change my entire strat in an attempt, YES I SAID AN ATTEMPT, to stop one item in the entire freaking game? That is a load of crap if I ever heard one. I freaking pass! Adapt and overcome is one thing but when you tell me I have to completely change everything I have worked my butt off for because of this.... 2 Words: Hell No!

Oh and Jir you should know that the ExBow/AxBow is working far to efficiently it needs to be rescaled. So cut the useless prattle about functionality it is a game of semantics and you know it. Nothing should be able to take anything down in this game in 1 or 2 hits.....NOTHING!

Jon has said it more than once CB is a game of soft counters. Even the ELB with 200+ Mil NW cannot take out an entire team in 1 or 2 hits so let's not go there.

Let's put it on the table yet again: 16.1-4 Mil Str, 8.4-7 Mil Dex and +180 DBs and I get Nerfed in 1 or 2 shots and you seriously think that is just fine? Even without my ToA I have the # 2 Str in the game just over 5 Mil, and #1 Dex just over 5 Mil and I have 7 Mil in HP and the ExBow pwns the holy crap outta me.

This Item is absolutely freaking ridiculous! Lasting 10 Rounds in a fight where you are getting the Holy Crap Stomped outta you is not a fight it is an example of a beat down. When there is nothing you can do except take it because you cannot fight back is just wrong on too many levels.

I do not mind getting beaten but give me a chance to fight back!

Zenai November 15 2009 11:19 PM EST

Kev I rarely hit Ranger more than 2 times in a round....RARELY.

kevlar November 15 2009 11:24 PM EST

I just think that is not the typical scenario when you generalize talking about tanks and mages though. So what about the top tank (whoever it may be) who is able to hit lower people 3,4,5,6 times? I just don't see the comparison, say to a top mage.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 15 2009 11:30 PM EST

"are you also willing to give mages the ability to boost damage and number of hits through usd?"

Dude- How about you give me away to boost my non-usd back tank damage? What if we suddenly started nerfing all the mage stuff simply b/c people put USD into it? Do you now how ridiculous that sounds? If you nerf USD tanks hardcore, you nerf non-USD tanks into oblivion. You need to come up with a solution to the USD, not to tanks... not to tanks...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2009 11:37 PM EST

"Dude- How about you give me away to boost my non-usd back tank damage?"

that one is easy, train strength. just like mages have to train dd.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2009 11:43 PM EST

Here is 1 thing that I want to point out especially since you are beating me again for the most part Ranger. If I had absolutely not health or defenses it would still take you 2 turns to beat me. Right now you are beating me in 5 rounds. That means that all of my 107 evasion, 135 AC and 18.4 mil HP on my PL wall only give me an extra 3 rounds against you. Just so you know the 135 AC plus PL drops the damage you put out per hit to 65.2% and then I take off more than 1 of those each round.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 15 2009 11:54 PM EST

Zen honestly, if you swapped your HP and STR you wouldn't fear drain AT ALL. (Maybe throw in some defensive armor as opposed to running a pure offensive equipped Archer)

Period.

You just don't want to. So why should ANYONE (Jon included) take anything you say seriously?

You keep pointing out how unfair it is that you can lose 16m STR in one hit, but that's the thing, ITS A PERCENT BASED DRAIN!!!! 100% of X is THE EXACT SAME DRAIN regardless of the STR lost. Don't like it? Lower the % of your HP lost in 1 hit. Or stop whining.

Damage Reduction + HP is a very very very very good way to stop the exbow. It works. It's proven to work, it's the way the developer changed the item to work. I personally KNOW it works having used the exbow.

Part of Adapting and overcoming is, ADAPTING. Get used to it, you could whine this thread into 500 replies, won't make a difference. Until you actually try and fail changing your strat to counter it, you're just blowing smoke.

The exbow shouldn't be rescaled. It shouldn't. Really. The problem the exbow was introduced into the game to fix should be fixed, and the exbow deleted. The "wah wah wah mages don't have something that kills them so easy" argument is null and void because Mages aren't doing 5x and 6x hits for 2m damage a hit. The LARGEST DD in the game (Steeds) sometimes hits for 6m damage a round in MELEE, Ranger can dish out 8m+ damage the first round of ranged...

That's somewhere in the vicinity of 40 million damage before melee...

I have the 3rd highest minion SG in the game... SG... and a EF of equal DD level, and at most COMBINED I see roughly 3-4m damage a round IN MELEE... That's around 14m levels of DD and I'm doing HALF the damage 6 rounds later...

Fair? PUHHHLEASE

The problem is, there is nothing on the table that would fix either problem, only create more problems.

So I say again and for the final time; Until you suggest a valid fix with some real thought behind it, you're all just whining. And it's obviously falling on deaf ears.

If you're trying to fix the exbow, you're missing the problem entirely.

*sigh* I'm bowing out of topic, I don't care, it doesn't much effect me (ironically enough it doesn't effect the whiners much either) and people just seem to be beating their heads against a wall, getting all worked up, over and over and over and over again.

"Suggest something helpful or shut up. The whining is more annoying than the item."

(sad when you need to say the same point 5 times and still think people won't get it)

lostling November 15 2009 11:56 PM EST

:) as usual nobody thinks what i say makes sense lol...

Merrit November 15 2009 11:59 PM EST

idk why people are so upset over exbows... it only counters damage from melee/ranged tanks. it has no effect on teams that do damage with RoBF and/or mages. if your lineup is a single minion tank.. well then yes there is going to be a counter. I think the exbows are fine just the way they are since you have to be basically devoting your minion with it to only countering tanks since it does a lot less damage then ELB or SoD.

kevlar November 16 2009 12:22 AM EST

Ranger, on average exactly how much damage do you do per round of ranged combat? (without an exbow) I'd like to see what the world of CB would be like if there wasn't any weapon that could cut into the USD damage that is out there. But how high exactly is it? And I would also love to know what the top mage does per single hit of ranged for comparison, especially when there is suggestion of a DD draining weapon... when DD can't even think about increasing damage done with USD.

QBRanger November 16 2009 12:32 AM EST

On average I hit 3 times a round for about 1.5M per hit. I hit more vs no evasion/DB minions and less vs higher dex/DB minions.

Less damage vs high AC, more vs little AC.

Vs Little Anthony touches Dog [3802336]. An average SG hit.

When I reach melee, I hit 1-2 times a round for the same damage, every other round.

But again, you cut my damage, and where does that leave all the melee tanks? or the non-USD ones.

Yet again, Fix ENC instead of damaging all tanks.

And while people love to state more HP works wonders vs the exbow, I have the 2nd most HP and the exbow rips me up.

Also, "If I had absolutely not health or defenses it would still take you 2 turns to beat me." Duh, if I had no elb, you would beat me in 1 round. That has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. LA with his 378 AC and PL lasts 6 rounds vs my elb and can beat me going more often now.

In addition, we have a special tattoo just to stop physical damage, if it is too much. Combine that with some decent AC and you have an archer stopper.

Let me also add that mages can increase their damage with USD. Look at novices NSC. They make basically any AMF nearly useless. But even then he does not get the insta win the exbow does. Mages can also use USD to boost their DBs, decreasing physical damage.

QBRanger November 16 2009 12:51 AM EST

"that one is easy, train strength. just like mages have to train dd. "

Well given the fact DD damage is directly proportional to DD level, which physical damage is not, that is not a fair assessment.

Also given the fact there is this abusive item out there that sucks all your strength in 1 or 2 hits, this is not a fair assessment as well.

And all my discussions are based upon this directly from the developer himself:

"Tanks: Can become more powerful than mages, but cost lots of money to maintain.

Mages: Tend to be cheaper than tanks, but also tend to be less powerful (and less able to deal with armor penalties)

I think this provides a nice balance between spending money on your chars and spending exp on them; I see no reason to change it. "

Where does it say that mages have to be the same as tanks and that there has to be a nerf all button for tanks?

Yet again, if it is a problem with USD backed weapons fine, fix it via ENC. Not with one of the stupidest items I have ever seen in any RPG I have played.

I would love to see such an item in WoW or any other game of this type.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 16 2009 12:59 AM EST

"that one is easy, train strength. just like mages have to train dd."

Oh great idea. Wait, it's negative again. Better train some more... wait still negative. I wonder why it's negative... oh that's right, the exbow... Yeah, that was solid advice.

kevlar November 16 2009 1:06 AM EST

I don't think the NSC is a good example. And DBs go for both sides. Talking about just mages and their DD damage. If you spend money to upgrade a weapon it is increased damage for everyone. Not just 1 aspect of someone's strat like the AMF. Everyone doesn't use AMF. And does any mage average 27million damage during ranged (using your #s)? And that is average so I'm assuming you top 30million plus more often than not? The more I read these posts the more I'm on the side of those that say just do away with USD.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 16 2009 1:19 AM EST

It would have been so much better if you'd lost that fight Ranger...

Guardian November 16 2009 2:35 AM EST

me loves Jiraiya explanation. It rules.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 16 2009 3:55 AM EST

"I would love to see such an item in WoW or any other game of this type."

WoW doesn't need it, as unlike CB it has actions that take all control of your charcater away from you.

Like Fear, Cyclone, Polymorph or any of the numerous Stuns.

I don't think CB would benefit from a trained DD/EO that stops your opponent performing any action at all for a set number of rounds.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 16 2009 4:05 AM EST

As for why Ranger's hit by the EXBow in the OP, it's down to the (I think silly) current Base Chance to hit / Chance to hit rules.

An EXBow has a 56% Base Chance to hit, and all the Leadership/DBs/Weapon PTH in the game doe snothing to effect this.

Only Dex.

So;

"He has 4.5M dex vs my 6.5M dex"

Gives a 39% Chance to hit, once, per round.

Over 6 rounds, the chance to not get hit is 0.05152%.

Or Ranger can expect to get hit at last once in 95% of all his fights currently.

QBJohnnywas November 16 2009 4:31 AM EST

Ok, here's my thing: my team is set up pretty well to take on a wide variety of opponents. I have a large mageseeker that takes care of almost every mage in the game, excepting those that use either RBF or Jig. I have a pretty decent tank that can handle himself in melee (the biggest Morg in the game and lots of HP regen take care of that). I have a lot of physical damage reduction from the ToE and SoC. So I'm pretty good against all tank teams (except the huge archers). I would say that if there is a team that is set up to use the exbow properly mine is it.

So switching to the exbow instead of the mageseeker loses me mage teams. I understand the why of that, but it doesn't guarantee me the largest tanks (Archers and Jigs). Even with a powerful weapon to mop them up in melee. I just about beat Z and Ranger - but it's tight, I need almost every round available to do it.

So from a team that can beat almost everyone below the top 25 teams and several in it, to a team that can only defeat consistently some of the smaller tank teams and none - I repeat NONE - of the mage teams up around the top 75. Inconsistently I can defeat some of the larger archers, but still cannot beat Lightning Raider's Jig.

That's this hugely imbalanced weapon, being used by a big tank, which is what it's supposed to be used for. And it stinks. Sorry, it does.

Speaking as an archer who can beat some significantly larger opponents, both tank and mage, frankly we need something that can stop us. In my case even RoS teams with big GAs don't stop me.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 16 2009 4:53 AM EST

Sorry it took so long to post this Zenai.

This was my idea to halt the effects of the USD archer.

Deflection
Gives a percentage chance to deflect arrows shot at the minion equal to [(skill level/2 + minion dex x skill effect)/ opposing minions dex] x 100%.
Deflected arrows would deal damage equal to [original dmg x (100% - percent chance of defection)]
For each consecutive hit in the same round, damage deflected is reduced by 1/4 the % reduction of the previous hit.

Zenai November 16 2009 7:03 AM EST

"Zen honestly, if you swapped your HP and STR you wouldn't fear drain AT ALL.
Period."

Jir when I saw this I really did have to chuckle. You honestly think that makes any real difference right now? Look at Ranger he has what like 14 Mil HP and the ExBow still pwns him......right good advice there bro absolutely solid advice.......


"(Maybe throw in some defensive armor as opposed to running a pure offensive equipped Archer)You just don't want to. So why should ANYONE (Jon included) take anything you say seriously?"

Ha hahahahaha You still think you know and see all do you Jir? I have tried many different ways to settle out this problem for my Strat and even trained all throughout my NCB in the event I would have to change my Tat to something else. I had tried several different Armor changes through Rentals and have even borrowed a few items to test out multiple combinations and guess what bro.....THEY DIDN'T FREAKING WORK! Why on earth do you think I STILL have all of my present gear on? Because in the slight chance(because even in the armor change scenario I STILL got hit and it hurt a LOT) that I have managed to dodge the ExBow I lost half of my fightlist.......just for ONE item. Yeah sounds like a fair trade off hmmm NOT!


"You keep pointing out how unfair it is that you can lose 16m STR in one hit, but that's the thing, ITS A PERCENT BASED DRAIN!!!! 100% of X is THE EXACT SAME DRAIN regardless of the STR lost. Don't like it? Lower the % of your HP lost in 1 hit. Or stop whining."

Whining pfft in your words of dismissal WHATEVER! I have pointed out things and stuck to my guns about it if you don't like it stop reading my posts to the Thread.

"Damage Reduction + HP is a very very very very good way to stop the exbow. It works. It's proven to work, it's the way the developer changed the item to work. I personally KNOW it works having used the exbow."


Hmmm I mentioned this earlier tell that to Ranger the person with the #2 HP in the game who STILL gets pwns with all of that HP. Honestly you might want to rethink that idea a bit there bro.


"Part of Adapting and overcoming is, ADAPTING. Get used to it, you could whine this thread into 500 replies, won't make a difference. Until you actually try and fail changing your strat to counter it, you're just blowing smoke."

Once again read above I have tested multiple things and all of them have only resulted in one thing....helping me to lose half of my fightlist or more. Shy of changing my ENTIRE Strat to something COMPLETELY different my alternatives are nill.

So in a few words Jir: Stuff it.

"The exbow shouldn't be rescaled. It shouldn't. Really. The problem the exbow was introduced into the game to fix should be fixed, and the exbow deleted. The "wah wah wah mages don't have something that kills them so easy" argument is null and void because Mages aren't doing 5x and 6x hits for 2m damage a hit. The LARGEST DD in the game (Steeds) sometimes hits for 6m damage a round in MELEE, Ranger can dish out 8m+ damage the first round of ranged...That's somewhere in the vicinity of 40 million damage before melee..."

As opposed to what 44-46 Rounds of Melee where everyone else reigns as king and Ranged get's and uber cut in damage...... Yeah throw up those numbers all you want bro the fact still remains that Archers only have 5-6 rounds(with a HoC) to do their thing.



"I have the 3rd highest minion SG in the game... SG... and a EF of equal DD level, and at most COMBINED I see roughly 3-4m damage a round IN MELEE... That's around 14m levels of DD and I'm doing HALF the damage 6 rounds later...

Fair? PUHHHLEASE

The problem is, there is nothing on the table that would fix either problem, only create more problems.

So I say again and for the final time; Until you suggest a valid fix with some real thought behind it, you're all just whining. And it's obviously falling on deaf ears.

If you're trying to fix the exbow, you're missing the problem entirely."

*sigh* I'm bowing out of topic, I don't care, it doesn't much effect me (ironically enough it doesn't effect the whiners much either) and people just seem to be beating their heads against a wall, getting all worked up, over and over and over and over again."


So a % Drain that high is just fine huh? I wish I could make a weapon to pwn your strat in 1 or 2 hits and see how you would freaking like it.


"Suggest something helpful or shut up. The whining is more annoying than the item."

Actually I have Jir in more than one instance I have suggested things and even pointed to others that have suggested fantastic ideas and alternatives guess you didn't catch that huh? BTW Thanks Nayab/Whitewolf :-)

Not knowing what the hell you are talking about in this instance as far as my char and what I have done with, Tested and Tried is far more annoying Jir so why don't you do what you have suggested I do.....SHUT UP.

"(sad when you need to say the same point 5 times and still think people won't get it)"

I agree how about you take your own advice on it hmmm?


Here I have answered everything you have said in the same manner into which you thought was pertinent to do to me and several others. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. BTW Jir


Duh!
Duh!
Duh!
Duh!
Duh!


In one word all of our Arguments as far as the ExBow are concerned.

SUBSTANTIATED!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 16 2009 10:25 AM EST

For pete's sake, can't we just agree that a stat regen item or fix needs to be implemented that would allow tanks in melee a chance?
Yes the elb needs counters beyond being a 5 minion PS+TSA team or being another cookie cutter GA+RoS team... and tanks should have to invest in defense (even archers), however the exbow is lacking that little bit of tempering that stat regeneration would provide.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 16 2009 10:38 AM EST

I think most of us do mate.

Problem is, we're gonna need an actual changemonth to sort all this (and much more) out.

Maybe I'll make a FS/WTB thread in December asking to buy one! ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 16 2009 10:42 AM EST

I've got $50 on that GL

AdminShade November 16 2009 10:53 AM EST

Your auction for An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x1] (+0) has sold for $60,775.

OP this! ;p

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 16 2009 4:58 PM EST

Oh god, it's the end of the world, Ranger is losing 90 fights today, oh man! Not even mentioning that not a single person beating him is using an exbow.

Yeah I think it's safe to say the exbow is absolutely ruining him.

Truth

Moving onto Zenai, again not a single person with an exbow farming you.

Bunch. Of. Whiners.

Saying that Ranger gets owned in one round makes me giggle considering it took me 4 rounds to full drain him when I was farming him a few months ago.

This will be my last post in this thread, as funny as I'm finding it, it's becoming equally as sad.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 16 2009 5:02 PM EST

Ranger does get drained in one hit. Nem drains me in 2 with only 400k ST. Although, I have to agree with nov here. I think we should just make ST return in melee. That sounds fair to me? Anyone have a problem with that? But, of course... the biggest problem would be the implementation of our agreement :).

Wraithlin November 16 2009 5:07 PM EST

Jon does enlarge things slowly after all

QBsutekh137 November 16 2009 5:07 PM EST

Jir, what does the item in question beating (or not being used to beat) a specific target have to do with anything?

I have seen you argue things both ways:

-- Someone getting beat by an item is a whiner because they clearly have a vested interested in getting said item nerfed.
-- Someone NOT getting beat by an item has no reason to worry about it, and therefore is still a whiner.

Why don't we back up and have you lay out the rules: When is it OK to bring up an issue one perceives as an imbalance, and how should such a discussion be started, conducted, and concluded?

Finally, if I am neither getting beat by the item, nor NOT getting beat by it (because I don't fight) and I _still_ think the item in question needs changing, what is left to make me a "whiner"? Don't let me down, now, I'm sure you can think of some reason to still label me as such. *smile*

QBRanger November 16 2009 5:09 PM EST

If you really believe this is only about me and my battles only you are a sad person.

I see others, including a clanmate being beaten by this stupid weapon.

But as a former and current user of this abusive item, I would think you would post nothing less than you currently have.

Which is of course sad.

But if the exbow is needed to "counter" the big bad ELB, why the hell do I lose to other strategies? Like the ROS/GA or the Jiggy or the TOE and high AC.

I read the exbow was SO essential to CB to stop all of the big bad missile weapon users. It was SO needed as there is no other counter to our strategy.

I think this makes your discussion null and void. In its entirety as there are other strategies which counter the ELB well.

You wish to chat about something that needs more counters, let us chat about the RBF with its one counter-AC.

To Titan,

Having strength return in melee is a great idea, however, it does not stop the exbow from draining you so much into the negatives you would take many rounds to get it back. I have been drained to -3M strength in some cases.

And what about those that use the exbow in missile rounds, continually shooting your strength into the negatives. Would you stop its drain while being used in missile?

For all the chat I see Jon typing about soft caps, this is the antithesis of that.

I guess it is soft caps for everything but the exbow, which is needed to counter the archer strategy that is superpowerful. Unless it of course meets GA and/or the Jiggy or AC/TOE.

What a crock of dingo's kidneys.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 16 2009 5:12 PM EST

Well, it's easy really. Are you whining? Then stop it.

I have ARGUED both ways, I haven't whined for either way. I'm not seeing any arguments or suggestions here, only whining.

I keep trying to not post here, so if you want to argue with me directly, I have my own attention thread.

QBJohnnywas November 16 2009 5:19 PM EST

"But if the exbow is needed to "counter" the big bad ELB, why the hell do I lose to other strategies? Like the ROS/GA or the Jiggy or the TOE and high AC. "

What ToE do you lose against? Considering there are pretty much two active ToEs in the game active anywhere above about 2 mill score. If you're counting me then that's a little disingenuous considering I only beat you with a rather large exbow equipped. And then only just, with hardly any rounds to spare.

QBRanger November 16 2009 5:20 PM EST

Yes, you certainly are whining.

Whining to keep your abusive item as it is, to keep abusing it.

Instead of trying to understand how non-USD tanks cannot compete with such an abusive item.

You state it is needed to counter the large missile weapons while failing to see the couters already in place and working.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 16 2009 5:22 PM EST

"You state it is needed to counter the large missile weapons while failing to see the couters already in place and working."

i thought nov stated that and jon agreed with it?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 16 2009 5:29 PM EST

"To Titan,

Having strength return in melee is a great idea, however, it does not stop the exbow from draining you so much into the negatives you would take many rounds to get it back. I have been drained to -3M strength in some cases."

I mean for it to auto return. 100%.

QBRanger November 16 2009 5:30 PM EST

Dude,

I guess I can live with 2 or 3 exbows being able to beat me or not beat me.

I guess we need such an item to counter the 3 or 4 huge ELBs out there and let us forget about all those non-USD spenders that have 0 chance vs modest level exbows.

That is such a great way to get and keep a player base. And keep people happy.

Yet again, since nobody have commented on this statement:
If the problem that is causing the elb to be needed is supersized ELBs, then fix the problem via the mechanism that was introduced-ENC.

But no, let us keep such a stupid item for the 3 or 4 that put money into the game and forget about all the other non-USD tanks. And just forget about all the melee tanks altogether.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 16 2009 5:43 PM EST

it would appear that our only option is to live with it, just as we have to live with:

~jiggy and uc having the only non-linear damage model in the game

~a flawed ranged mechanic in general

~hal's runaway pth

~evasion being nerfed too much

~minions hiding in death

in short, we all have our little laundry lists of things we think are broken with the game. in my opinion, yelling how broken the game is at the top of our lungs all of the time is probably just as damaging to our retention numbers and community as things that the community perceives as broken and not being fixed.

i am not saying that no one should ever complain, but the constant outcries are accomplishing what exactly?

QBRanger November 16 2009 5:45 PM EST

Not letting things being forgotten.

QBsutekh137 November 16 2009 6:01 PM EST

dudemus, at least Ranger's methodology doesn't converge on stagnant silence. I'm not sure that still-stagnant cacophany is awesome, but I actually prefer it so stagnant silence.

I'm not saying I strongly support either, but if things aren't brought up and hashed through every once in a while, then what are forums for? Should we just start threads contemplating when changes (if any) are ever going to occur, or would that, too, eventually just be dismissed as "whining"?

That's a genuine question...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 16 2009 6:14 PM EST

there are times when the devs ask for input. when people request something i think they will be more likely to listen rather than just taking a chance that jon may log in and see a thread.

it seems to me that the trade-off of these threads being divisive to the community might not be worth the possibility that the one person that needs to see them will and have his mind swayed from what he chose to do in july.

this item has been the subject of the most recent balance changelog in the game if i am not mistaken. some of us are sitting on issues that haven't even been looked at in a couple of years despite having them stated as an issue that was being looked into and even having a fix in the works.

QBRanger November 16 2009 6:22 PM EST

Dude,

I think most of us agree that the other issues you brought up are in fact broken and need fixing.

This issue however, is very divisive.

But if the current progression of CB continues, it may not matter anyway as we have not had a constructive changemonth in close to a year.

Aside from the stupid drop system and the near useless fight feed.

But when such an item gives such a disparity in opinion, perhaps something should be done with it.

I just hate to see all the non usd tank attempts being destroyed by it and the users frustrated more each day it goes without fixing.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 16 2009 9:06 PM EST

I would love to know how I am abusing said item. Truly. I don't care about the fate of the exbow. I've stated it many times before, so taking cheap shots at me because I happen to own one of the largest in the game is pretty amazingly not-fantastic.

Why don't you attack Nightstrike directly because he owns the largest? Seriously, CM him telling him how abusive he is. See how well that's received.

Anyways...

How am I abusing it? Abusing it would be using a similar strategy to Jiraiya. Considering I have the exbow itself in rentals makes your attack even more baseless... Considering how little the exbow equipped/unequipped effects my Fight list makes your attack even more baseless. (In case you were wondering, it drops 2 people from 100% to ~70-85%...) HUGE HUGE HUGE abuse going on here.

Give me a break.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- November 16 2009 9:09 PM EST

I just hate to see all the non usd tank attempts being destroyed by it and the users frustrated more each day it goes without fixing.
--QBRanger, 6:22 PM EST

So you should be equally sad to see all the non-usd everything that gets destroyed by your massive usd bow. Oops, guess not.

Hypocrite.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] November 16 2009 9:14 PM EST

No one listens to Titan...

QBRanger November 16 2009 10:23 PM EST

From those non USD people who I chat with, they are far less upset from being beaten by a 300+M NW ELB than a 60M NW exbow.

I am sorry you are just blinded by the fact of owning one and do not want to see your investment diminished.

Myself, I have advocated for nerfage of a few items have owned. And have not done all in my power to keep my items abusive.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 17 2009 3:46 AM EST

"Jon does enlarge things slowly after all"

Win. ;)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002vVo">I hate to bring up the exbow again but...</a>