With all the changes (in General)


Mikel December 9 2009 7:59 AM EST

How come the exbow/axbow hasn't been changed yet?

Neo Japan December 9 2009 8:47 AM EST

they were months ago

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 9 2009 8:48 AM EST

No real game balance changes yet Mikel. So far it's just been user interface stuff (apart from the GoM, but that was probably just an easy tweak).

kevlar December 9 2009 9:23 AM EST

Had the Hal / BoE change, but there were a variety of opinions on that. Esp. with the Hal.

Windwalker December 9 2009 10:09 AM EST

Because the one's who could do something about it don't think it's a problem. Didn't you know? What they think is all that matters.

AdminShade December 9 2009 10:43 AM EST

Perhaps because neither is really in need for a change?

FailBoat[SG] December 9 2009 11:41 AM EST

Shade... I hope you were being sarcastic. If not, I'll expect this thread to be over 75 posts by the time I wake up with people pointing out how an item shouldn't be able to drain you into Negative Str as a tank when the person firing the bow at you, has maybe a fourth. Give Tanks a piece of equipment that we can throw on a wall, for the heck of it because they don't need to hold anything else, that can drain magical attacks to the negative and we'll see how the other side of the coin feels.

Now, I'm heading to bed. Get to ranting everyone.

Zenai December 9 2009 12:44 PM EST

Don't need to SG there are over a dozen different threads that point out everything already. You would think Jon would get the point that his band-aid fix didn't work and that the weapon needs to be COMPLETELY rescaled/reworked.

QBRanger December 9 2009 1:36 PM EST

The main problem is that Jon, who does not play the game, seems to believe that the exbow is working as intended.

Unfortunately, we as the players, have no idea what the intention of this weapon is.

If it is to be a counter to massive ELB damage, or perceived ELB damage, then fix the ELB damage. Instead of giving us an item that drains massive strength, possibly into the negatives in 1 hit. And given BTH hits are not that hard, it is almost impossible to evade exbows every round.

But until we know or get an opinion on what "working as intended" is for this item, we cannot know if any changes will occur.

Wraithlin December 9 2009 1:38 PM EST

The way it's currently working. That is as intended.

To be more specific: He made the item to make Ranger mad.

I'd say it was working wonderfully.

QBRanger December 9 2009 1:57 PM EST

Perhaps,

But I would assume Jon is above petty things like that and more worried about the betterment and health of the game.

Guardian December 9 2009 2:09 PM EST

I LOVE THE EXBOW, its the only counter to huge massive guys. U can't take that away from us.

QBRanger December 9 2009 2:33 PM EST

Very true,

Too bad we do not care about any low NW tanks. Perhaps they should just give up playing a tank due to this item?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 2:42 PM EST

While I have significant sympathy for mid level tanks of all networths, I hardly think the exbow is the sole reason for mediocre fight lists.

If we want to see any change regarding this we need to get our expectations in line with reality. It's unrealistic to think that in a world of six round ranged that the ELB can be balanced against a majority of strats without significantly nerfing it. The exbow is really the prop keeping the ELB from falling off the cliff of complete nerfage. I've seen plenty of evidence of effective defenses against the ex, I think buffing those methods is where our solution is.

QBsutekh137 December 9 2009 3:15 PM EST

So, nov, you want to buff all the other stuff around an item instead of changing that item to be more in line with everything else?

Isn't that the problem we have been experiencing game-wide for about 3-4 years now, and isn't it the very root of why things are becoming harder and harder to balance? I am pretty sure I have seen you state, as a bottom-line mantra, that instead of keeping on changing things further and further down the line, that we should look up the line and fix what is causing the problems. Am I mis-remembering?

Guardian December 9 2009 3:37 PM EST

"Very true,

Too bad we do not care about any low NW tanks. Perhaps they should just give up playing a tank due to this item? "


u look like a kid, "look, i beat everybody in the game but 5 exbow users beat me u must nerf it"

come on... put your foots in the land the world does not turn around the top fighters. I am tired of this bla bla u don in 365 topics about this item and i hope no one listen.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 9 2009 3:39 PM EST

KW, you beat top tanks with your tiny xbox. Imagine how people like me feel with x5000 weapons who haven't used USD, but still have useless weapons.

Guardian December 9 2009 3:41 PM EST

lets take it to numbers?

how can i compete with it??
The Lunatic [6x25000] (+234), i high level weapon only can be done by paying real cash, not cbd.

Eggs of Death [5x8700] (+265) , the strongest sod can't compete

A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x5000] (+202) the strongest enforcer maybe do something and its our only hope, also, its possible to reach by forging.

and you still think exbow isnt needed?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 9 2009 3:47 PM EST

KW, what's the size of your exbow?

(0.0) [SeeD] December 9 2009 3:53 PM EST

High level weapons can be gotten with CBD, you just have to be more efficient with your money. Hatch has a weapon over 100m, I had a weapon over 100m. Quite a few non-USD spenders have weapons over 50m.

Sickone December 9 2009 4:00 PM EST

83 mil NW weapon, haven't used a single dollar on the game (even the supportership was free sponsorship).

QBRanger December 9 2009 4:38 PM EST

So people like Sickone are doomed to lose to exbow users?

Fix the underlying problem.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 4:39 PM EST

Sut I'm suggesting making the existing counters to the ex more effective (increasing the percentage of hp required for "normal" drain, removing base to hit to make dbs more worthwhile as a defense). The ex serves a valuable function making otherwise defrenseless tanks cough up coin for the privledge of beating everyone

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 9 2009 4:41 PM EST

Treat the disease not the symptoms.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 9 2009 4:43 PM EST

i agree, revert back to a cost curve for damage upgrades! ; )

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 4:49 PM EST

So four round ranged it is then!

QBRanger December 9 2009 4:51 PM EST

And get rid of SG.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 5:02 PM EST

hahah... so Shocking Grasp is the reason we needed a six round ranged, which is the reason we needed an exbow, which is reason we've had no peace in forums in two years... huh


I really don't think things are that bad, just offer another defense and increase the power of existing methods for thwarting it. If the bar for forcing multiple hits being required for full drain is too high I wouldn't be against cutting it in half. Give tanks with 10m HP a good chance of surviving to melee (assuming other defensive measures of course) and we'll be close to making sure everyone is unhappy.

iBananco [Blue Army] December 9 2009 5:04 PM EST

Buff all DBs between +201 and +203, IMO.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 5:08 PM EST

sorry surviving to melee should have been surviving to melee with some str intact

QBRanger December 9 2009 5:09 PM EST

No,

We have had no peace in the forums over this item due to its unequalled nature.

An item that with 1 hit can make a whole character a paperweight.

There is no other item in the game that does this.

Not even the largest of ELB on the highest strength character delivers an insta win in 1 hit.

And when 1 or 2 hits is all you need, there is little defense from it.

One states it has to be in play due to the large ELB damage. But what about all those without huge ELB. Or melee tanks who cannot make it to melee.

If the problem is huge ELB damage, then fix that.

But if ELB damage does get reduced, be prepared for what happens to the balance of the game for non-USD characters who use the ELB.

QBsutekh137 December 9 2009 6:07 PM EST

novice, I understand where you are coming from. Fundamentally, though, you are saying, "push it down the line..." I.e. let everything the way it is, and then change things "further down the line" to make up for the game upwind.

Ranger is saying that if the ELB is too much, then tweak that...in other words, "fix the things UPSTREAM", since they are what is sending things out of whack.

This propagation of change downstream is making things harder and harder to titrate, and, ironically (given the multi-faceted complexity) leads to binary game-play dynamics. However, if you fix what is broken UPSTREAM, that helps to keep a controllable number of variables working together to still provide a rich fighting experience.

Sometimes simplicity ends up making everything better. This is what is known as an "elegant" solution.

Sadly, it would appear things are moving toward the opposite of that: a multi-headed "kludge."

Which direction would you like to go, or do you now see the downstream solution in as dire a light as I?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] December 9 2009 6:28 PM EST


Given the direction and origination of the graveolent hot air blown unceasingly on this subject, can we not call it "upwind"?

QBRanger December 9 2009 6:32 PM EST

One can alternatively say this thread and its "hot air" is contributing to global warming. But let's not and stick to the subject at hand.

Zenai December 9 2009 7:21 PM EST

Or we can just use layman's terms and say this is a line of crap that needs to be either deleted or made to work like everything else in CB Land AKA Soft Counter Central.

Fix the crap or make everything thing else a freaking 1 and 0 Item like it, and while in that code why not just add some more to it like SG suggested earlier in this thread.

Bottomline we are battling Semantics with each other when what we really need is cohesion in saying we don't need this piece of crap in the game. Just like the AoJ Petition, standing together and having agreeableness on the subject is the only thing that MAY sway Jon's decision.......MAY.

Until then yeah Hot.....Freaking.....Air!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 7:30 PM EST

"fixing" the ELB would neuter all users, when in fact only the very top is an issue...

Between Zen's cry's of delete it, and Ranger repeating himself I can see why a response isn't forthcoming. We as community have offered no new ideas, so it's back to the waiting game to see if the already implemented changes have an effect.

Zenai December 9 2009 7:34 PM EST

Nov I really respect you and you know it. So I will say this straight if you are gonna quote me quote it all the way.

I said:
Or we can just use layman's terms and say this is a line of crap that needs to be either deleted or made to work like everything else in CB Land AKA Soft Counter Central.


So I believe my cry is not as one sided as you have made it seem to be. Delete or made to work, meaning Fix the thing.

Thanks

QBRanger December 9 2009 7:36 PM EST

Between Zen's cry's of delete it, and Ranger repeating himself I can see why a response isn't forthcoming. We as community have offered no new ideas, so it's back to the waiting game to see if the already implemented changes have an effect.

Because Jon has not chimed in with a reason this item exists and engaged us in discussion about how to fix it. His only response was that it was working until recently but he acknowledged Sut's statements about how it can skew things. But there has been no normal discussion.

We have offered many ideas in many threads about how to fix this item so this statement is just foolish. Or just from someone using this abusive item trying to keep it as OP as it currently is.

"fixing" the ELB would neuter all users, when in fact only the very top is an issue...

As opposed to the current situation where melee tanks have no chance and normal ELB users (non USD) are already neutered vs it?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 9 2009 7:42 PM EST

Ember hit Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [85765]
Meowth looks weaker!
Ember shot Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [117929]
Meowth looks weaker!

Ember hit Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [70832]
Meowth looks weaker!
Ember shot Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [96918]
Meowth looks weaker!

Ember shot Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [82429]
Meowth looks weaker!
Ember shot Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [91790]
Meowth looks weaker!

Ember hit Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [102933]
Meowth looks weaker!
Ember shot Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [96981]
Meowth looks weaker!

Ember shot Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [98329]
Meowth looks weaker!
Ember hit Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [110403]
Meowth looks weaker!
Ember hit Meowth with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [110574]
Meowth looks weaker!

Meowth's Strength 70,456 starting from 4,452,000

I took off my exbow to see whether I could keep my str all the way into melee which I did. I didn't have much left over but I will be able to have quite a bit left over soon.

QBRanger December 9 2009 7:50 PM EST

Yes 18M+ hp is an effective counter to the exbow.

Too bad you are the only character to have that much. :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 7:55 PM EST

I've offered just as many as you have Ranger, and been quite ready to endorse any you've suggested.

You however have yet to comment on fixes I've suggested, and have continued with the idea that the ELB can be tuned to allow for the elimination of the ex entirely. Pot, kettle, black.

1) Raise the percentage of HP needed to drain "normally"

2) Undo the base to hit exemption for dbs reduction

3) Create some form of stat regen (either item or inherent)

All of these have been well received when folks originally suggested them, I've been in favor of them from the outset as I remember it.

When I'm being a self serving prick out for my own interests you'll know it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 7:59 PM EST

It takes NS 4 hits to drain my PL walls STR
It takes him 2 hits to drain X-Wing after that


It takes Nem 4 hits to drain Yoda's STR


I don't have 18m HP... or any real defense against the ex.

Zenai December 9 2009 8:03 PM EST

I think someone once said it best some where in chat or a thread.

The reason ppl are complaining about the ExBow is that they don't feel they should have to have 20 Mil HP, 300+ AC or +300 DBs. They are not really viable options for most of the community.

This is not a direct quote since I cannot find it and I'm being lazy right now. I think however the point should be made that at least it makes sense.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 9 2009 8:05 PM EST

Nem with only 750k ST cuts my ST to about 20% of it's original in two hits. Yup two.

Levon [Clocked Out] December 9 2009 8:18 PM EST

no offense guys, but you should understand why nothing gets done when you can't keep your composure and stay focused.. read the first post in this thread, then read your comments on the bottom.. do they match up?

i just wasted like 10 minutes of my life skimming this entire thread to find nothing interesting or meaningful.. except Mikel's original post which is interesting

pls stop flooding the forums.. how can you behave like this when you're already concerned with active players? do you think anyone wants to read this junk?

BHT December 9 2009 8:19 PM EST

<NightStrike>My take on the exbow is that I have yet to hear a decent argument against it
<NightStrike>to answer BHT
<NightStrike>and frankly, I really care less and less about things that are just constantly berated
<NightStrike>you don't like it, write your own stupid game


There you have it. Read it and weep.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 8:24 PM EST

Heh, Nightstrike's Jon impressions are getting dead on.

Zenai... I don't think anyone disagree's with that statement, which is why I keep repeating myself. Buff (and introduce new) counters to the exbow. Get folks behind that initiative and we'll get somewhere.

BHT December 9 2009 8:25 PM EST

<NightStrike>anything that one hit neuters a team is a completely bogus argument
<DrugFreeRaveshaw>well if that team is a single tank....
<NightStrike>one hit from an ELB against the main/only damage dealer will also neuter a team
<Zenai>NS I have been one hit wondered before why do you think Im aggrivated about it?
<NightStrike>so what?
<NightStrike>that's not a bad thing
<NightStrike>how many people one-shot each of my damage dealers?
<NightStrike>a dead minion is just as incapable of dealing damage as a ST-less tank
<NightStrike>I see no difference
<Zenai>I dont mind getting beaten, but I would like the chance to fight back NS, getting taken into -3Mil Str in 1 shot is a line of crap
<NightStrike>and I'm tired of people complaining that they should have some arbirtrary number of hits before their damage goes down
<Zenai>especially when I started with 16 Mil str
<Nemerizt>you have no defenses zen
<NightStrike>what about getting taken into -3M HP in one shot?
<DrugFreeRaveshaw>NS, what people are saying is, why is it that a single weapon, not a strategy, but something that someone can purchase and invest money into, can destroy an entire strategy. sure, single minion is a simple strategy, but one nonetheless.
<NightStrike>Rave - every weapon does that
<NightStrike>the difference is that people ahve defenses geared towards straight damage
<DrugFreeRaveshaw>well sure if it's big enough. =P
<NightStrike>so their defenses don't work
<NightStrike>which means people don't like it
<NightStrike>news flash - get a new defense
<DrugFreeRaveshaw>but doesn't the exbow do it when it reaches 4k X or something?
<NightStrike>and if you think you'll be able to defend against everything in the game, you're wrong
<Nemerizt>next month i should be almost immune to exbow damage
<NightStrike>you're going to have vulnerabilities... that's life
<BHT>good point

QBRanger December 9 2009 8:34 PM EST

Well if that is the current line of thinking of the developers, then why do we not have a mage counterpart?

And spare me the MSB. With PL out there, it takes numerous hits to take down a mage.

I want an item that in 1 hit can take a mages or familiars DD spell down to a negative level.

I will certainly invest 80M into such a weapon.

But there are so many flaws in NS's statements it is difficult to start.

But here is one. He compares 1 hit from an ELB killing a minion to 1 hit from the exbow neutering a character. A good comparison IF the weapons were near the same.

Right now we have 70-80M exbows doing just that while it takes the ELB over 300+M to have the same effect.

Zenai December 9 2009 8:36 PM EST

And when I build a x100K +500 ELB don't do anything to screw with it because well everyone has vulnerabilities....that's life!


Not to make it personal but I'll hold you to that Statement NS.

Rawr December 9 2009 8:37 PM EST

AMF? Mage shield? AC? RoBF? all lower magic damage

Lochnivar December 9 2009 8:42 PM EST

Ummmm.... just one note about the one hit
Versus Tank
Elbow = 1 hit death (thus no damage)
exbow = 1 hit no strength (thus no damage)
advantage: even

Versus Mage
Elbow = 1 hit death (thus no damage)
Exbow = 1 hit.... (-300k hp?... mage lives on)
advantage: Elbow

Hey, you can argue things one way or the other, but if a team can only afford 1 100mil NW weapon I probably wouldn't choose Exbow.


Zenai December 9 2009 8:42 PM EST

Lowers they do not work the same way as a Specialty Xbows. 1 hit can mean negative stats instantly bro. I've been there, it is not fun to be completely leveled in one shot. Then watch a lower char plug away at me for 20+ rounds for a win while I can do nothing back, absolutely nothing.

QBRanger December 9 2009 8:46 PM EST

Loch,

I have to disagree.

1 hit from my ELB does not mean instadeath. In fact, there are no mages that I fight where 1 hit=death to the mage.

Many hits possibly. But then again, I am using a ToA and have +234 on my ELB. Too much, likely but still it is a 320M NW weapon.

gols090 [forge of me] December 9 2009 8:56 PM EST

AMF? Mage shield? AC? RoBF? all lower magic damage

AMF = Requires a good MPR investment to be anything other than a decay counter.
MGS = Put it on a wall and you're missing the AC from a Mithril Shield, can't put it on enchanter/mage, a wall loses the Str that Buckler of Mandos could grant.
AC = Requires a WHOLE set of items, as well as SS (easily dispellable)
RoBF = Takes up a very valuable tattoo slot.

Vs. Exbow against a tank
Not much of a comparison.

Lochnivar December 9 2009 8:57 PM EST

Fair point Ranger, I wasn't actually meaning to imply that Elbow's 1 shot people on a regular basis, merely stating if each weapon were able to 1 shot then the Elbow is clearly superior.

I will say that I think the 1 shot issue is more of an issue vs the exbow because whereas almost all defensive strats are designed to limit damage this is not the case with drain.

I honestly haven't done any really detailed theorizing or number crunching on it but I don't think the situation is beyond salvage (without nerfing the exbow).

Zenai December 9 2009 9:04 PM EST

1) Raise the percentage of HP needed to drain "normally"


5% is the normal for it right now, if you doubled it then maybe this will work for a while but I have an inkling this is only a band-aid fix player could just pump it up more and the same effect happens. Something more should be done in my opinion. How to make it work without completely screwing this item would be a good alternative. I can see this being a good item if only it didn't have the "1 hit from me and you are screwed capability".
2) Undo the base to hit exemption for dbs reduction


Anything to make this a more viable option to a complete change in strategy. Adaptation is one thing a complete change is not cool. A player should not have to make their strat completely to guard against one thing. That is just plain out dumb.
3) Create some form of stat regen (either item or inherent)


It has been say and suggested in many ways and I totally support this. If I can get my str back so I can at least fight back then it is all good to me. As I have said numerous times all I want is a chance to fight back, this in my opinion would do just that.

Rawr December 9 2009 9:13 PM EST

the point is its an investment you have to make. and besides magic damage isn't nearly as boostable as physical damage is

kevlar December 9 2009 9:16 PM EST

Ranger (gotta luv the exbow threads :/),

I am confused what you are arguing against. After looking at the top exbows in the game and your fightlist, it's interesting:

A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x5000] (+202) worth $130,370,181 owned by AdminNightStrike (The Iconics 3e) --The Iconics 3e (F) (+) 25 0 0 0
A Bolt of Nether [4x6000] (+150) worth $95,798,128 owned by Jiraiya (Blightning) --Blightning (F) (+) 46 0 0 0
wooden cane [4x3900] (+176) worth $95,758,590 owned by QBnovice (Dagobah) --Dagobah (F) (+) 2 0 0 0
Scratch [4x5200] (+85) worth $58,150,261 owned by Nemerizt (Team Rocket) --Team Rocket (F) (+) 65 7 0 1

Then, you are only attacked by one person with success, and he doesn't even use an exbow. All of the top exbow users also have a higher MPR than you. Most by 500k or more. So the USD is obviously working. Not to mention, NONE of the exbow users have you in their fightlist. Same with you Z. All the people that are hitting you don't use an Exbow... it's only the targets you guys are attacking who are TRYING to use them as a defense, and only partially succeeding at most.

I'm a little confused why this is a problem when it really isn't?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 9:19 PM EST

Just going over with Zenai his fights with Nem

I'd like some help doing testing to find out how drain is actually working with regards to percentage of HP required for "normal" drain.

Zen has nearly 8m HP

Nem's exbow is Scratch [4x5200] (+85) worth $58,150,261 owned by Nemerizt (Team Rocket)

Nem hits Zenai for around 200k damage

5% of 8m is 400k

This leaves me to believe that Nem's drain should be about half of "normal", half at this point is greater than 100%.

This leads me to believe that we have more going on than simple balance issues, lets see if the community can come together to confirm the possibility that we've been arguing over a bugged item.

Rawr December 9 2009 9:23 PM EST

Then watch a lower char plug away at me for 20+ rounds for a win while I can do nothing back, absolutely nothing


Happens to me against RoBF teams. Their investment into AMF completely neuters my DD while the RoBF takes its time to burn me down. Its a counter!

Rawr December 9 2009 9:24 PM EST

^ i should mention that the RoBF lowers my SG damage with the AMF

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- December 9 2009 9:25 PM EST

??? only ~2.5% is needed to achieve the drain pre-change, which was pretty significant... so at 5% of total damage, the drain actually doubles if I'm reading it right, so I see it working as intended.

From the changelog
The stat drain will be proportional to damage done. At about 2.5% of the target's current (not max) HP, the drain will be about what you were used to. At 5%, it will be 2x*, where it is capped. And on down: at 1% of HP, it will be 0.4 of the old drain. There is no floor; enchanters armed with a crossbow can expect to be very disappointed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 9:26 PM EST

X-Wing overshot Richard Rahl

My +176 exbow never hits Zenai, Nem's +86 exbow almost always does, this is prime example of why the exemption for dex based base chance to hit is a key component of the inability of tanks to defend themselves against the exbow.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 9:28 PM EST

Thanks for the correction Jir... I knew I had to be off somewhere.

That brings me back to asking if it might be time to increase the cap.

20m HP is a bit much to ask of the average high level tank, but 10m isn't.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- December 9 2009 9:31 PM EST

Novice, can you explain the point you are trying to make, as I don't understand.

The exbow vs the Elb in a tank vs tank match, the exbow SHOULD win. Why should an Elb tank win vs an Exbow tank? The exbow tank is sacrificing his damage output to get the one up on tanks. The Elb tank is just trying to spit as much damage to everything as possible, so what's the problem?? Seems fair to me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 9:34 PM EST

The elb user should have options to defend against the exbow... despite folks saying so this isn't a simple rock paper scissors game.

Rawr December 9 2009 9:35 PM EST

What are my options versus RoBF?

kevlar December 9 2009 9:38 PM EST

But Nov, Ranger hired 2 minions and that option seems to be working very nicely... against users that are 1/2 a mil higher in MPR to boot. No?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- December 9 2009 9:41 PM EST

I have the highest X exbow in the game, but somehow it doesn't seem to grant me any of the top tanks in the game onto my FL... I keep hearing how magical the exbow is, but I continue to see results like this:

Heroes (F) (+) 46 0 0 0 100.00 6.1 8:40 PM EST

Average rounds: 6.1

So despite my magically overpowered weapon, I still lose 100% of the time to a team that is killing my 5 minions with almost 18m HP across the board before round 7...

7... of 50.... ...

*shrug*

I'm not saying it's the best thing in the game, but what's the alternative?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- December 9 2009 9:45 PM EST

Yes. It's as broken as it appears to be!


Post-battle stats
Great Sable Stag Wall of Denial Cumberstone Steroids Deathmark
Experience 6,517 6,517 6,508 6,518
Hit Points -821,546 -5,204,842 -9,763,967 -9,263,063 -6,037,861
Strength 20 1,340,880 20 20 20
Dexterity 19 582,540 20 20 21
Armor Class 100 123 0 0 55
Ranged Base to-Hit 56
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 155
Direct Damage 13,949 8,495,594 7,025,454
Damage Inflicted 0 0 0 0 0

Play-by-play
Blightning Heroes
Great Sable Stag found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Wall of Denial found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Cumberstone cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (1610536)
Sheep cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (3,015,529)
Pig cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (3,788,365)
Pig cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?)
enchantment effects that cannot be determined before combat are displayed as '?'
Ranged Combat
Dog hit Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1431940]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [1431940]
Dog shot Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1809858]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [1809858]
Dog shot Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1853546]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [1853546]
Dog hit Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1938044]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [1887840]
Wall of Denial regenerated 279,386 HP

Wall of Denial's shot ricocheted near Dog
Dog shot Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1317772]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [1317772]
Dog shot Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [2040899]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [1887840]
Dog shot Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1602456]
Wall of Denial absorbs damage [473028]
Dog skewered Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [2071577]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
Wall of Denial regenerated 279,386 HP
R.I.P. Great Sable Stag

Wall of Denial's shot flew past Dog
Dog struck deep into Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1394343]
Dog skewered Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1351337]
Dog skewered Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1604542]
Dog struck deep into Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1410012]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
Wall of Denial regenerated 279,386 HP
R.I.P. Wall of Denial

Dog skewered Cumberstone with The Lunatic [1653545]
Dog skewered Cumberstone with The Lunatic [1583978]
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone with The Lunatic [2577187]
Dog skewered Cumberstone with The Lunatic [1580472]
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone with The Lunatic [2378785]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Cumberstone

Dog skewered Steroids with The Lunatic [2138060]
Dog skewered Steroids with The Lunatic [2604501]
Dog skewered Steroids with The Lunatic [2586425]
Dog skewered Steroids with The Lunatic [1897936]
Dog skewered Steroids with The Lunatic [2160039]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Steroids

Dog hit Deathmark with The Lunatic [2326645]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [1957572]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [1805687]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [1875522]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [1833556]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Deathmark


Oh no! the evil exbow wielding leprechauns are coming!

Zzzz I think I'm going to just stay out of these threads, I keep finding myself as well as everyone else saying the exact same thing over and over and over and over...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 9:52 PM EST

My point is simple... working together is better than posturing and politics.

The top tanks are quite capable of defending themselves against many exbow users, I'd like to see a few more options for those without +200 dbs or 19m HP.

Can anyone seriously give me a reason against some form of stat regen in Melee?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- December 9 2009 9:56 PM EST

I don't think it would change anything...

Minion 1 regens x% during Melee
Minion 2 Drains Minion 1 with the exbow.

Rinse and repeat...

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 9 2009 9:57 PM EST

If you take away the base to hit on the exbow the only way it can possibly hit is through pth. This would make usd even more necessary for an exbow than for an elb. If it required even more investment into an exbow (which it would) for it to work than for investment into an elb who would ever use one? The exbow is a far more specialized weapon and as such for it to be effective it should require less investment than a generalized weapon.

Zenai December 9 2009 10:04 PM EST

Not to Posture but since you like to post play by plays Jir.


Play-by-play



FuerGrissa ost Drauka
Richard Rahl cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (2,563,831)

Team Rocket
Jesse James found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Jesse James's Steel Skin fizzles under Dispel Magic


Ranged Combat

Richard Rahl skewered Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [2629726]<==From this level of Damage.
Meowth absorbs damage [2629726]
Richard Rahl skewered Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [2785128]
Meowth absorbs damage [2785128]

Meowth hit Richard Rahl with Scratch [208064] <===Note 1 Shot!
Richard Rahl looks weaker!
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl shot Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [285]<==To this level of damage.
Meowth absorbs damage [285]
Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [490]
Meowth absorbs damage [490]
Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [341]
Meowth absorbs damage [341]


Meowth's shot went wide of Richard Rahl
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl shot Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [373]
Meowth absorbs damage [373]
Richard Rahl shot Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [488]
Meowth absorbs damage [488]

Meowth shot Richard Rahl with Scratch [136272]
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [492]
Meowth absorbs damage [492]
Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [344]
Meowth absorbs damage [344]
Richard Rahl shot Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [577]
Meowth absorbs damage [577]

Meowth hit Richard Rahl with Scratch [157724]
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [385]
Meowth absorbs damage [385]
Richard Rahl shot Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [372]
Meowth absorbs damage [372]
Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [470]
Meowth absorbs damage [470]

Meowth's shot flew past Richard Rahl
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl shot Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [412]
Meowth absorbs damage [412]
Richard Rahl hit Jesse James with Chainfire of Truth [360]
Meowth absorbs damage [360]

Meowth shot Richard Rahl with Scratch [135962]
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Melee Combat
Richard Rahl glanced off of Jesse James with Chaos [95]
Meowth absorbs damage [95]
Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [109]
Meowth absorbs damage [109]
Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [150]
Meowth absorbs damage [150]
Richard Rahl burns from the flames surrounding Jesse James (2034137)

Meowth swung wildly at Richard Rahl
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl glanced off of Jesse James with Chaos [46]
Meowth absorbs damage [46]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Jesse James with Chaos [127]
Meowth absorbs damage [127]
Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [145]
Meowth absorbs damage [145]
Richard Rahl burns from the flames surrounding Jesse James (1882382)

Meowth fractured Richard Rahl [415366]
Meowth regenerated 558,000 HP

Richard Rahl glanced off of Jesse James with Chaos [51]
Meowth absorbs damage [51]
Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [186]
Meowth absorbs damage [186]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Jesse James with Chaos [24]
Meowth absorbs damage [24]
Richard Rahl burns from the flames surrounding Jesse James (1752097)

Meowth crunched Richard Rahl [444832]
Meowth regenerated 415,068 HP

Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [76]
Meowth absorbs damage [76]
Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [35]
Meowth absorbs damage [35]
Richard Rahl scratched Jesse James with Chaos [126]
Meowth absorbs damage [126]
Richard Rahl burns from the flames surrounding Jesse James (1749544)

Meowth regenerated 215 HP

R.I.P. Richard Rahl


Post Battle Stats

Hit Points -1,121,380
Strength -7,078,238<=== Yeah lovely
Dexterity 8,370,616


Nem's Stats for Meowth

Hit Points: 18,600,000
Armor: 152
Strength: 4,137,000
Dexterity: 4,315,500

Richard Rahls Stats

Hit Points: 7,795,000
Armor: 72
Strength: 15,927,943
Dexterity: 8,370,616


Not to say I should necessarily beat him but man into Negative how much Strength in one shot? From over 2.5 Mil damage to roughly 500 damage per shot with a x30K ELB +101 add in the PTH of my ToA. Now I am not trying to make things seem worse than they are but the Ex/AxBows capabilities are just a little over the top right now bro. This is a perfectly fine thing to happen you say? Wow....just Wow. ......................................................................
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.
I hate the spellchecker as much as it hates my chars name.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2009 10:07 PM EST

I don't know if it's any different for you, but I've changed my tune to removing the exemption for base to hit in db evasion reduction (hear that Mikel!)

This would allow a tank to actually avoid hits from the ex, which currently isn't possible if the attacker can get even half your dex.

I realize that the existing counters are working, I realize that the top exbow users aren't always beating the top archers. It's the rest of the game that folks seem to be concerned about and I'd like to see an end to this vicious debate.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 9 2009 10:15 PM EST

i see both sides of the argument.

in the fightlog zen posted for example, the exbow shut you down in round 2 of ranged.

in round one of ranged though the elbow did almost 5.5m of damage. towards the end of ranged the elbow would likely get more hits per round and do some where between 35m and 40m in damage just in ranged. as i have stated before, the exbow is an extreme counter for an extreme item.

a team that has to wait until melee to do its damage is shut down just as much without a chance to fight by massive ranged damage though if their team or if their main damage dealer dies before melee.

ranged is very fast and very furious. as long as ranged stays that way, then we will likely need the exbow working quickly and decisively.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 9 2009 10:25 PM EST

oh, and the disparity between tanks that have very high net worth and those that don't was worsened, in my humble opinion, by the switch to the linear cost model for damage modifier upgrades on weapons. which is why i stated earlier in the thread that reverting back to a cost curve was likely the solution.

if the first 50,000 x's cost the same as the second and third 50,000 x's then there really is no soft cap or ceiling and the disparity will become worse over time. with a cost curve, once the point of diminishing returns is reached then there is less disparity.

check out most of the specialty items that are on a cost-curve, such as elven gloves. most are around plus 15 with only a few going higher. the cost curve keeps the disparity at a minimum.

Zenai December 9 2009 10:25 PM EST

Then fix whatever the underlying problem is, seriously this is irritating.

There has been so many suggestions on fixes and honestly I am for a lot of them.

One of the better ones I have seen is to mix Ranged and Melee for the purpose of what you have stated dudemus.

Just to point it out even my x30K +101 ELB cannot shut someone down in one shot. By the way dudemus it was the end of Round one I got shut down not round two.

For Everyone: I understand that the nature of the game means someone will beat me but getting beat that way is just plain wrong in my honest opinion.

FailBoat[SG] December 9 2009 10:57 PM EST

I'd like to thank all of you for living up to my expectations.

I was going to wonder why no Magic Version of the Exbow was in place until I got to this point:
<NightStrike>how many people one-shot each of my damage dealers?


So, the reason the Exbow won't be changed is not because its not a valid balancing point, but because the owners are spiteful against others. Yay!

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 December 9 2009 11:16 PM EST

There is a magic version of the ExBow, its called the Mageseeker.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 December 9 2009 11:17 PM EST

And, of course, the context of the quote in question...

The discussion was does an ExBow fit into CB with its binary nature. The response is, it is no less binary than a huge ELB: Get hit, dead.

QBsutekh137 December 9 2009 11:25 PM EST

Oh dear, too much to read.

But novice, I have said my piece over and over: simply spread out the exbow curve. It is that simple. The End.

Please don't say we haven't offered enough ideas. I have, ever and always, offered the simplest (read: most elegant) solution around.

Bast, of course, dahling. I will cease to use the word "upwind", though I do happen to agree with Ranger on this, and have no problem with his volume on this. You know as well as I how loud _I_ can be. *smile*

FailBoat[SG] December 9 2009 11:34 PM EST

There is a magic version of the ExBow, its called the Mageseeker.


HA! Hahahaha! Haahahaha! Hehe...

Are you seriously going to say that the Mageseeker is a valid comparison to an item that fully drains the strength of a tank? The mageseeker allows you to target a minion on the opponent's team with the highest spell. Not drain their spell to non-exsistence, not make them completely unable to do anything within two rounds*, just target them first. How is that the magical version of the ExBow?

* Please note, having a x10k MSK and a Mage with 100k HP might result in them dieing by the end of the second round of ranged, but that is something I'd have to see first.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 December 9 2009 11:38 PM EST

Killing a mage and draining its spell have the same effect, a minion who cannot do anything. If you want an anti-mage weapon and then conveniently dismiss a weapon that serves just that purpose, well, I don't know what else to say.

{EQ}Viperboy December 9 2009 11:49 PM EST

what rea you guys whining about, the exbow is what it is a special weapon that does what it does well, is it overpower in the game? hell no. I use exbow, i get maybe 10%-20% chalenge bonus, there are alot fo counters against exbow. First off this in no way effects mages, so mages are still strong against tanks or monks using exbow cause exbow has low damage and doesn't deal as much as a mage would during ranged. Thre is also GA, this works wonders, crossbow already doesn't do much damage combine that with GA and you get the opponent to kill himself off. Simple. Every strategy has a weakness if u have the one that exbow targets and works against, u can't expect the game to be cahnged so u can't lose. The whole point is there is a strategy to counter yours, and exbow is the one that counters yours. If you want you can change your strategy to be efficient against exbow but then maybe other strategies will beat you and you can complain about that. Yes the exbow drains all of the STR, thats the point of the weapon. so if your team is nto well rounded and purely relies on that STR to beat your opponent, then you ahve a losing strategy against an exbow.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] December 10 2009 12:21 AM EST

Here's what I think we need:
1) less ranged rounds- 3 total, then melee starts. No killing every enemy minion on 5 minion teams before CoC or whatever kicks in.
2) DX regenerates naturally in melee. Negative amounts caused by exbow/axbow/EC are treated as 0. Stats regenerate at 5% a round in melee. Maybe add a skill that increases the regeneration to 10% a round in melee and even ranged?
3) Lower and split encumbrance. Instead of one encumbrance number of $1billion, make it much lower and one for melee and another for ranged, say $80mill ranged and $100mill melee (grows with mpr of course).
4) While we're at it- lower GA damage 20% to correspond to the lower damage done.
5) Everyone collects $1million and gives it to Vaynard for being so awesome, giving so many great ideas, and for getting engaged this evening :)

Godpanda December 10 2009 2:04 AM EST

Question:

What has been said in this thread that hasn't been said in another?


I mean, I'm all for revisiting things that the community is still concerned about... But could the community at least try to take a different view each time? Or... Something. I don't know.


I would like to make two pretty simple points.


In regards to the opening post:

If it hasn't been changed yet, maybe it's because the developers don't think it needs to be changed.


Two:

Everytime a developer disagrees with you (the individual reading this) does not mean they're biased. It could just mean they disagree. I mean, I disagree about Pluto being a planet or not. But I can hardly see a bias I could have on that.

Get it?

FailBoat[SG] December 10 2009 2:32 AM EST

So, I'd like to point out one of the biggest flaws of the Exbow, that really should be addressed. Its ridiculous ability to hit anything it aims at.

The biggest example:

Scratch [4x5200] (+85) worth $58,150,261 owned by Nemerizt (Team Rocket)
Dexterity: 4,315,500

Dodgeball Boots [0] (+327) worth $294,427,393 owned by Mikel (King of Pain)
Dexterity: 692,022

Now, Team Rocket has the Dex advantage, and while I'm not sure how much of one it is, I highly doubt that its enough to offset the largest pair of DBs in the game. But, it is. And it causes KoP to get hit and die every time... For 158 Fights.

Now, I'm pretty sure that DBs were originally listed as a counter to the Exbow but here is a case of the third largest Exbow hitting the largest pair of Displacement Boots out there and yet everyone is still thinking this item is working as intended? Was its intention to force you to no longer be able to run a tank? Admittedly, Jon has all but stated that Tanks should no longer exsist in this game and that all that matters is Mageblender, but still, this is ridiculous.

kevlar December 10 2009 2:34 AM EST

Ok guys, well how about this? I'm sitting here racking my brains about this, because it's so frustrating everyone getting so upset and noone is intervening (*cough* hey Jon! :)

So, since a majority, it seems, feels that the ExBow is ridiculous, how about at least making the ExBow users invest some EXP into it to reap the full benefit of the drain, until something better comes about or is accepted? Like bow users have to train it to get full damage potential.

Just include it in Archery, that if you don't train at whatever level you think is fair 1/5, 1/8, etc... the specialty bows, including MSK? won't function at optimum power. Thus, to get the max drain, you have to invest a portion of the exp of your character to get it? Not just slap it onto any minion and train some ST (which I think most say didn't really do much to give it any balance). If the EXP investment would be too much, then revert the ST adjustment?

Fair or not?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 10 2009 2:40 AM EST

SG as it is relevant, my exbow or in fact any weapon I use does not change whether I beat KoP at all. I beat him 100% of the time if I have nothing on my PL/tank minion except for a TSA. And yes, those DB are very effective at what they do. Even with the biggest MoD in the game I still couldn't hit him consistently.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 10 2009 3:33 AM EST

>. Well if that is the current line of thinking of the developers, then why do we not have a mage counterpart?

Multiple hits, damage multiplies, and layered Reduction.

You can stack Armour, MGS, RoBF and AMF on a single charcater to give you a maissve amount of layered percetnage redution for DD, that will *always* be that percent, due to DD only having a single attack.

Physical can have Armour (slightly higher than DD reduction), EC (less reduction than an equivalent AMF), and the SoC (Less reduction than the MGS).

On top of all that, the other forms of Reduciton for Physical are the 'binary' hit system, which (due to the base DEX Hit changes you'll never - equivalently - dodge every hit) reduces damage by an overall percentage depending on how many hits the Tank should have actually landed.

Tanks get 'binary' reductions, Mages get layered percentage reudtions.

Want an EXBow for DD? Then you need to let DD hit multiple times a round.

{EQ}Viperboy December 10 2009 3:33 AM EST

SG as it is relevant, my exbow or in fact any weapon I use does not change whether I beat KoP at all. I beat him 100% of the time if I have nothing on my PL/tank minion except for a TSA. And yes, those DB are very effective at what they do. Even with the biggest MoD in the game I still couldn't hit him consistently.


horrible idea, so a monk who alraedy trains UC won't be able to really use any decent ranged? the entire point of exbow/axbow mageseeker is they seek based on who it is, high dex/str/magic. the reason axbow/exbow also have drain anti-tank but they give up damage as their base damage is only 4X which matters and outputs less damage. meaning against mages, exbow/axbow is useless. exbow/axbow is an anti-tank strategy. there is nothing wrong with that? why are u guys complaining? most of characters on C2 are mages, and they still kick ass against people with exbows or whatnot. also there is GA that also HELPS to kill off low damaging eXbow tanks. omg can you guys complain....

QBJohnnywas December 10 2009 5:12 AM EST

"Are you seriously going to say that the Mageseeker is a valid comparison to an item that fully drains the strength of a tank? The mageseeker allows you to target a minion on the opponent's team with the highest spell. Not drain their spell to non-exsistence, not make them completely unable to do anything within two rounds*, just target them first. How is that the magical version of the ExBow?

* Please note, having a x10k MSK and a Mage with 100k HP might result in them dieing by the end of the second round of ranged, but that is something I'd have to see first. "


My MSK is rather large admittedly, but it's a lot smaller than the ELBs that are floating around. However it does allow me to take on teams of much larger MPR and beat them into a pulp.

NWO for instance. Apologies to Poison but my MSK thinks nothing of his mages. The familiar dies in the first two rounds, followed by his mage within the next two rounds.

So in four rounds I've nullified not one but two DD spells completely. That knocks the exbow into a cocked hat rather nicely I think.

Zenai December 10 2009 5:44 AM EST

So in four rounds I've nullified not one but two DD spells completely. That knocks the exbow into a cocked hat rather nicely I think.



Rounds bro NOT in One or two Shots and this from the Top MSKer in the game. This has been my point the entire time, NS and everyone else to whom this applies. I do not give a dammm if I lose, I have understood from the get go that that this is the nature of CB some one will beat you.....Duh. But that person no matter how powerful should not be able to nullify you in one or two shots, not even the Top Ranged weapons in the game can do that no matter what the stupid argument may be.


Final Time: The Ex/AxBow is OP in it's current state, if you cannot see this you are freaking blind or biased, it should be reworked/rescaled period. I wouldn't give a dammmm if in it's reworked/rescaled state, it would still allow ppl to pwn me. As long as it didn't do it in one or two shots......Rounds yeah I can handle that, shots.....how stupidly ridiculous is that?


Now I am done with this crap I am done posting in ExBow Threads for a good long while. I am sick and tired of my blood pressure rising because people cannot see the truth in front of their faces.

FailBoat[SG] December 10 2009 6:33 AM EST

Oh but Zenai, you have to remember, it doesn't matter because you could totally kill off their 20HP enchanter with Negative Str, right... Of course, thats only if you oneshot the PL Wall and managed to dispel the entire Ablative Shield but hey, it could happen!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 10 2009 7:20 AM EST

Just as much as a Mage killing off a MGS/RoBF/AMF minion backed by a PL/TSA wall.

PL/TSA Walls suck.

For everyone.

QBJohnnywas December 10 2009 7:24 AM EST

The thing that is interesting is that neither of the two biggest archer teams Z and Ranger get beaten by the exbow any longer. I'm not sure if that is better dex or DBs or what, but they beat the biggest exbow teams.

So all the talk of wanting a fair fight seems a bit redundant now.

Now, if I strap on a big exbow I can beat them, but then I've a tank who is capable of taking them on in melee and is pretty tough himself. But otherwise at the moment ELB trumps Exbow....

Mikel December 10 2009 7:49 AM EST

Nem,
I am aware that your ROBF will eventually get me (mainly because you have high ac), but here is what I don't like about people using the exbow vs my DB's.

All it takes is one hit to my DB wearing minion and my st is below 20. After that, he is no longer attacked and you are attacking the rest of my minions multiple times, therefore bypassing the db's altogether after one round of ranged. Does that seem right? Even if he was a tank, the same thing would happen.

The drain should be % based and the stat being attacked should never fall below 20.

and PS The reason you beat me is because I have to have big db's to try to avoid a hit from the big weapons, otherwise I would put a very high ac wall in front and we'd stalemate cause neither of us could do enough damage with an robf to kill the other off.

QBJohnnywas December 10 2009 7:51 AM EST

And additionally, just for the sake of fair reporting:

The two biggest exbows don't reduce my strength to zero within 10 hits. Which means they need to still be firing when they get to melee. The exbow isn't the reason those two teams - Jir's and Nightstrike's - beat me either. One has a lot of SG, the other has the RBF.

I've 7 million strength, 5 million dex.

FailBoat[SG] December 10 2009 8:11 AM EST

JW, I'd like to point out that -both- Ranger and Z are USD Tanks who pump money into their gear. So, maybe we should think about levelling the playing field for the rest of CB. Unless, like every other F2P game online, we should start showing a clear division of ability between F2P and P2P users.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 8:47 AM EST

oh, and the disparity between tanks that have very high net worth and those that don't was worsened, in my humble opinion, by the switch to the linear cost model for damage modifier upgrades on weapons. which is why i stated earlier in the thread that reverting back to a cost curve was likely the solution.


if the first 50,000 x's cost the same as the second and third 50,000 x's then there really is no soft cap or ceiling and the disparity will become worse over time. with a cost curve, once the point of diminishing returns is reached then there is less disparity.

check out most of the specialty items that are on a cost-curve, such as elven gloves. most are around plus 15 with only a few going higher. the cost curve keeps the disparity at a minimum.

QBRanger December 10 2009 9:11 AM EST

To be honest, the reason I no longer get toasted by Nem is the fact I had to hire another minion.

But if the developers believe a; 1 hit= win; item is good for the overall longevity of CB, then I have to eventually defer to their logic.

I am just very worried by the CMs I get, it is not. And non-USD tank will continue to get frustrated as more exbow users pop up. Perhaps I am overstating the problem, but my CM box does get a lot of frustrated people in it.

QBRanger December 10 2009 9:13 AM EST

The drain should be % based and the stat being attacked should never fall below 20.


I agree with the first part at lot. A real lot.

The second part would be fixed if the first part is enacted.

QBsutekh137 December 10 2009 9:35 AM EST

JW, if an equal NW exbow took out an equal NW ELB, do you think Ranger would be (quite so) vocal about it?

You said it yourself -- there are HUGE ELBs floating around. That doesn't mean the next logical step is, "so we need something cheaper that can completely nullify that" (and no, it doesn't matter who can beat whom -- I am talking pure theoretical game dynamics, otherwise everything devolves into an anecdotal "worth" argument).

nov wants more counters to the exbow as a solution, while counters to the ELB directly would serve far better. For the record, though, huge items have always, and probably always will, rule the game. When Todd and Spider built "I Win" on CB1, were there endless threads about how it shouldn't be so strong? No. There were whiners, to be sure, including me, but I had no solution. USD was allowed and was used well by T-S to dominate (at least at that point). The End. I went and forged, and other folks tried other things (like massive ELBs) to make "I Win" lose (and had varied levels of success).

Here on CB2, the mentality seems to be, "Wah! Things are too strong, so let's add binary, inconsistent game-play elements so we can take cheap shots at the strong things! Because USD sucks, and huge items suck, and it just isn't fair!" Wrong, at least wrong direction. If huge items aren't fair, then do something about the items. Don't offer a cheaper, "win" button to act as a counter.

There are plenty of ways to tweak the system so that massive weapons are toned down (more now than ever, what with the NW-PR linkage and ENC). Why not use those things to control the out-of-control?

QBRanger December 10 2009 10:59 AM EST

I could not have stated it any better Sut, excellent job summarizing.

QBsutekh137 December 10 2009 12:00 PM EST

I'm here for you, buddy. *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 10 2009 12:02 PM EST

if an equal NW exbow took out an equal NW ELB, do you think Ranger would be (quite so) vocal about it?


Yes, absolutely, without a doubt.
You said it yourself -- there are HUGE ELBs floating around. That doesn't mean the next logical step is, "so we need something cheaper that can completely nullify that" (and no, it doesn't matter who can beat whom -- I am talking pure theoretical game dynamics, otherwise everything devolves into an anecdotal "worth" argument).


Whatever the next logical step is, this is the one the devs chose. Making our suggestion in line with the path the developers chose might be a good way to get things changed.
nov wants more counters to the exbow as a solution, while counters to the ELB directly would serve far better. For the record, though, huge items have always, and probably always will, rule the game. When Todd and Spider built "I Win" on CB1, were there endless threads about how it shouldn't be so strong? No. There were whiners, to be sure, including me, but I had no solution. USD was allowed and was used well by T-S to dominate (at least at that point). The End. I went and forged, and other folks tried other things (like massive ELBs) to make "I Win" lose (and had varied levels of success).


So the CB1 solution (or lack of one) didn't work...

Here on CB2, the mentality seems to be, Wah! Things are too strong, so let's add binary, inconsistent game-play elements so we can take cheap shots at the strong things! Because USD sucks, and huge items suck, and it just isn't fair!" Wrong, at least wrong direction. If huge items aren't fair, then do something about the items. Don't offer a cheaper, "win" button to act as a counter.


...and now without offering anything better than "nerf the ELB" you're bashing the one we have. Characterizing the exbow as a win button is both incorrect and silly. People have made an effort over and over to show examples of fights where the ex takes many rounds to eliminate an opponents str. The balancing of this item is well on it's way to being completely functional and in my opinion fair (fair being measure by the collective unhappiness scale).

There are plenty of ways to tweak the system so that massive weapons are toned down (more now than ever, what with the NW-PR linkage and ENC). Why not use those things to control the out-of-control?


NW-PR and ENC both cripple lower level non-USD tanks as well, they are already sucking the fun out of the game as is... I really don't see why we want to make it worse.

QBRanger December 10 2009 12:28 PM EST

Wrong nov,

If it was not a x5k exbow vs my x25k elb I would not be as vocal.

But 1/5th the x? When some dex give you hits?

But Sut is completely right in this statement:
You said it yourself -- there are HUGE ELBs floating around. That doesn't mean the next logical step is, "so we need something cheaper that can completely nullify that" (and no, it doesn't matter who can beat whom -- I am talking pure theoretical game dynamics, otherwise everything devolves into an anecdotal "worth" argument).


And in all reality I love ENC and the attempt of NW-PR in trying to balance the game. In fact, I think ENC does not go far enough if we are trying to cut down on super-sized weapons. Aside from yourself, who thinks it is sucking the life out of the game?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 10 2009 12:31 PM EST

Anyone trying to use dbs or heavy AC on anything but a massive single minion...

As to you being capable of being less vocal, that's like saying I'm capable of being less of a jerk.

Specialization has always been more efficient than pure damage, that's both fair and logical.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 10 2009 12:32 PM EST

Obviously the exbow should work at a cheaper level when it targets only 1 thing and the ELB targets everything. You have specialized vs general. If it takes just as much investment into a specialized strat as a generalized on no one will use the specialized version because the general version is just plain better.

QBRanger December 10 2009 1:32 PM EST

Fine,

The give me something as specialized to work vs DD. But that will never happen.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 10 2009 1:36 PM EST

Give me a ranged DD capable of killing...

QBRanger December 10 2009 1:47 PM EST

You have MM and FB. People still use those effectively.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 10 2009 1:58 PM EST

You said it without laughing... you've been playing too much poker.

QBRanger December 10 2009 2:00 PM EST

I also say without laughing that it is beyond comical that a x5k item can completely decimate a x30k item in 1 hit. Even with a large dex advantage and +200 DB.

My poker face is very good. But I am laughing on the inside.

Godpanda December 10 2009 2:10 PM EST

Ranger is totally right.

Exbows are incredibly OP. I mean, his 4.5 mil MPR and 600 mil NW are totally worthless against it. So worthless his standings in score and MPR are pathetic because of all the Exbows dragging his team through the mud.

I mean, honestly, it's a bloody shame how low his character is. All because of how RIDICULOUSLY OP the exbow is.


Oh, wait, Ranger is 2nd in score. These threads are getting ridiculous.

Mikel December 10 2009 2:17 PM EST

Please keep the sarcasm and attacks to CM's.

This thread is not about that and there is only a couple of instances of it and I wish to keep it that way.

QBsutekh137 December 10 2009 2:19 PM EST

Yes, stating FB without laughing has to be hard to do -- FB is worthless for countless other reasons...

nov, I have every right to disagree with the direction of development as I do with specific changes. Additionally, I have helped get changes made in the game even when they were fairly radical and might not have seemed like the standard "flow" in development. I'm not saying I am entitled to any changes of my precise choosing, but I see nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that the exbow has never felt right to me because of its binary nature (EVEN IF the game seems to be going that way in other ways, too).

Nem, you are right in that a specialized attack should be able to neuter a generic attack for less. I agree 100%, and always have, that the exbow should reduce the effectiveness of physical attacks. But that is where it becomes a matter of scale, surely? If the exbow was simply an amulet that someone could wear and neuter an opposing tank entirely, would that be OK with you? After all, the amulet would be taking up an amulet slot and would be useless against mage and RoBF teams. So why not just go that route?

If you wouldn't be OK with that, at what point of "investment" is it OK for a specialized attack to neuter a much larger generic attack? That is what we are discussing here, because I have never said to eliminate the exbow entirely. I have said only to change the curve on how effective it is. Whether that be in flattening the drain curve, requiring more hits, making it more expensive to upgrade, forcing archery training -- whatever. I only care about the logical aspect of the problem, not the physical implementation of the solution.

Mikel December 10 2009 2:26 PM EST

Meowth's shot ricocheted near Sting

Meowth overshot Sting

Meowth hit Sting with Scratch [125830]
Sting looks weaker!
Sting's Guardian Angel smote Meowth (61917)
Sting regenerated 125,830 HP Meowth regenerated 61,917 HP

Meowth hit Andy with Scratch [111586]
Andy looks weaker!
Sting absorbs damage [111586]
Meowth shot Andy with Scratch [145203]
Sting absorbs damage [145203]
Meowth hit Andy with Scratch [93096]
Sting absorbs damage [93096]
Sting regenerated 314,898 HP

Meowth shot Roxanne with Scratch [187424]
Roxanne looks weaker!
Sting absorbs damage [187424]
Sting regenerated 168,682 HP

Meowth shot Stewart with Scratch [248551]
Stewart looks weaker!
Sting absorbs damage [248551]
Meowth shot Stewart with Scratch [218578]
Sting absorbs damage [218578]
Meowth shot Stewart with Scratch [230651]
Sting absorbs damage [230651]
Sting regenerated 377,176 HP

As I stated earlier, so after round 1 or 2 of ranged, you are able to bypass the DB's that I have and hit my weaker minions multiple times.

The exbow makes my Db's relatively worthless.
With a % curve this would not happen at all, nor if my ST would never fall below 20 as no one else on my team has an ST higher than 20.

Godpanda December 10 2009 2:28 PM EST

It's hard a personal attack to point out that one of the largest tank teams in the game is still 2nd highest team in the game despite how hard it is being countered.


I'm sorry. There are just far too many tanks still around for me to seriously accept that "exbows" are OP. I use Ranger as an example because, well, he's the best example.

Mikel December 10 2009 2:30 PM EST

He's one of the worst examples you can use.

Try using any one of the top 10-50 tanks and see how they feel.

QBsutekh137 December 10 2009 2:34 PM EST

As an example of an investment to neuter other strategies, consider DM. I had a lot of DM, and could therefore neuter many teams that relied on what DM was specifically meant to foil.

But was I able to do that at far, far less investment than the GA/AS folks? Was I able to train, say, only a third of the MPR they had trained in AS and be able to wipe them out? Of course not. I had to invest a huge amount of MPR (nearly two-thirds of my entire team MPR at one point) to be able to entirely negate these other teams. And the DM investment was completely useless against non-DE teams, and useless against those who were able to exceed my fizzling by even smallish amounts (due to things like PL and TSA).

Worse, training DM meant I couldn't train AMF, opening me up to smaller folks who could prey upon me.

About the only nice thing about DM was that it stacked well and was especially good at nullifying DE folks who tried to stack.

So, there's an example of a specialized solution that not only requires an almost equal investment to be useful, it has some additional handicaps as well.

Meanwhile, the exbow can completely nullify huge tanks (that means nullifying STR, DEX, _and_ weapon investment) for a relatively small investment. And the sacrifice to using an exbow? Nothing that I can think of, other than using a weapon slot. Using an exbow doesn't open oneself up to mages (like DM does with foregoing AMF), doesn't backfire, and requires relatively small MPR investments to be effective against what it foils.

Does that make more clear where I am coming from on this topic? People used to regularly say DM was over-powered in its current state -- imagine what might be said if it was just as powerful at half the comparative investment (or even less!).

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 10 2009 2:45 PM EST

Not having a high damage ranged attack certainly opens you up to other attacks.

I've been able using a 3/4 team xp dm setup to hit teams more than double my MPR.

What I'm trying to do is bring the expectations of those carrying torches in line with possible solutions for the good of the community. While not carrying a torch yourself Sut, you're walking along side folks that are and agreeing with statements that are spoken along side demanding the item be removed. The ex has been reduced in power once, the results from that are quite apparent (no longer are enchanters using them against high level tanks for massive rewards). Why these threads can't be boiled down to a sane reasonable group request for further adjustments is beyond me.

Mikel, are you seriously complaining that the nature of specialty bows means your other minions get hit after your RoBF minions str is drained?

QBsutekh137 December 10 2009 2:59 PM EST

nov, I know you're a smart guy, along with most everyone around here.

So, if folks want to lump me in with any number of other ideas, even when I have clearly stated they are not my ideas, then that's on them. I'm not going to shut-up or dumb things down because other folks can't apply simple critical thinking and discussion skills.

Of special irony in your comment is the fact that most instances I can recall of folks mentioning the removal of the exbow, it is exbow supporters who say if it gets nerfed further it might as well be removed. That is an erroneous, strawman-ish argument, and worse, it is making people think I want the exbow removed? No wonder things sometimes get hard to discuss around here!

QBRanger December 10 2009 3:06 PM EST

There have been many a thread asking sanely for an adjustment/change to the exbow.

But they all get ignored by the developers.

Even the most recent change we had was due to countless posts. In addition to multiple CMs to Jon and NS.

We have been quite civil in the beginnings of threads until people like GW take it upon themselves to start going after people personally. Which then degenerates the thread into chaos. Which I suspect is his point for his posts. To make the thread degenerate so he can then state these threads are nothing but said chaos.

But Sut is right. When is enough NW or xp enough to be a good counter.

It is not like we do not have a few counters already to the exbow.

They including but are not limited to:
1) AC with or without the ToE
2) Jiggies with or without junction to boost its UC
3) GA

That alone is more than other items/damage forms in the game.

In addition we have NW/PR and ENC to further try to balance expensive NW items.

Using me as an example is possibly not the best of all things. Use other tanks like Miteke to see how powerful the exbow is.

But seriously, why do we need it when there are plenty of other foils for the ELB/missile damage.

We currently have 1 character using a junctioned Jiggy invulnerable to all physical damage losses. Another is coming up the ranks. Maybe this other character will not be invulnerable to all tanks but will beat 90% of them at least when his NCB is done.

Mikel, are you seriously complaining that the nature of specialty bows means your other minions get hit after your RoBF minions str is drained?

Darn right he is and he should be upset. This item is using a minor type bug to bypass his DB wearing minion to hit his other minions multiple times. I would be upset also.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 10 2009 3:24 PM EST

Why is that such a big deal? The exbow puts out so little damage that it really doesn't even matter. The only way I can even deal any lasting damage, which is about 300k, is if I hit the PL guy in the 3rd round of ranged. If I hit him sooner I go through all the other minions and he regenerates all the damage. Any later and I don't get to the last minion which is the only one that I can actually deal enough damage to overcome his regeneration. For that matter 300k damage from the whole of ranged might and only might cut the fight down by 1 round in the end.

Lochnivar December 10 2009 3:33 PM EST

Just a little insight on my view of the exbow.

Currently I'm around 34th in MPR and PR and typically somewhere between 15th and 30th in score. (42nd in NW too)

I figure I fit the category of between top 10 and top 50 tank.
I freely admit that I use a GA/AS build that does do much of my killing, the tank finishes teams off.

There are presently 14 chars actively using me as a target.
The ones with no Exbow (11 users):
Nemesis
King of Pain
Heroes
Nightman
Darth Domo
Failure
Priestess of the Moon
NWO
The Immortals
3 Stooges
B Ark

The ones with Exbow (3 users):
The Iconics 3e +700k MPR
Dagobah +1.2mil MPR
FTW +1.3mil MPR

Now I am inclined to believe that the additional MPR of the Exbow users indicates that they would like beat me without their over-powered weapon. (at around 4mil mpr and extra 700k is a LOT of xp).

So, this is why I have issue with the 'Exbow is sooo overpowered and abusive' notion. I just don't see evidence of it in my fight list. Sure, I may just stalemate other exbow users, but heck, same goes for when I fight other GA/AS teams.

There is no 'smaller' char abusing the exbow to 'fight up' against me. (I don't recall that ever happening... my memory ain't great though)

One an interesting note:
8 or 9 of the people who target me use the RoBF... including (I believe) all the ones with less MPR than me.
Maybe I should ask to see something done about it?

Disclaimer: If I had a 200mil NW weapon I perhaps may be of a different view, but as things are right now, from my perspective, I don't see any huge issue with the exbow.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 3:33 PM EST

But seriously, why do we need it when there are plenty of other foils for the ELB/missile damage.



those all take time to work and that can happen with melee tanks but is much harder against mega boosted elbs.

take a look at you and zen's battle logs and you will see that the vast majority of battles you win regularly are all over within ranged combat.

QBRanger December 10 2009 3:59 PM EST

So we just invent an easy button like the exbow?

Instead of using the items and systems we currently have in place. Like NW-PR and ENC. Fix those or the elb.

I freely admit that I use a GA/AS build that does do much of my killing, the tank finishes teams off.

You admit that the RoS aspect of your character is the main cause of you winning most battles. Play for a while with just your tank and/or a HF and then see how many more exbow users target you.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 4:12 PM EST

i gave my answer above and it is far from an easy button, no one seems to have much to say about it though. what about you ranger, are you willing to change to a non-linear damage mod upgrade cost model to minimize the disparity between usd tanks and non-usd tanks?

Lochnivar December 10 2009 4:17 PM EST

You admit that the RoS aspect of your character is the main cause of you winning most battles. Play for a while with just your tank and/or a HF and then see how many more exbow users target you.



On my 16 person fight list I can beat 5 without my weapon equiped... so it seems the BoTH gets me *most* of my wins...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 10 2009 4:23 PM EST

dude: the old damage model actually rewarded USD tanks with compounded damage based on NW...

QBJohnnywas December 10 2009 4:26 PM EST

And made it extremely difficult to run a tank team without USD past a certain point because you simply couldn't boost the weapon enough to compete.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 4:28 PM EST

so, the more expensive x's gave more bang for the buck?

if so then instead of reverting to that old model, change damage mods to a cost curve but each x still gives the same amount of improvement. just they way most items work now like the elven gloves. the devs would have to decide about where the soft cap would be and damage would have to be adjusted again likely, higher this time though.

it is the disparity between that haves and the have nots that is the main issue here so until we address that we will always have a system that either makes it too easy on high nw teams or too difficult for low nw teams in regards to weapon damage that is.

QBRanger December 10 2009 4:40 PM EST

There is sort of that damage model now.

I upped my ELB last from x20000 to x25000 but only saw a 10-15% increase in damage for all that NW.

There is a point where upping my ELB now gives me little benefit.

One has to look at the upgrade as a % of the base.

Going from x5000 to x10000 (100% boost) is far better than going from x25000 to x30000 (20% boost).

So it seems we are near that non-linear damage upgrade pattern now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 4:44 PM EST

isn't one that is twice as big always 100 percent boost though? if so then it is linear. ; )

Lochnivar December 10 2009 5:33 PM EST

Going from x5000 to x10000 (100% boost) is far better than going from x25000 to x30000 (20% boost).


So it seems we are near that non-linear damage upgrade pattern now.

Going from x5000 to x10000 is a 100% increase resulting in a 100% boost.
Going from x25k to x30k is a 20% increase resulting in a 20% boost.
Graph it and get a nice straight line....

Are we thinking that the investment in 5k levels should double the damage in both cases?

Cube December 10 2009 5:49 PM EST

I thought it was a Square root curve...

QBRanger December 10 2009 6:09 PM EST

As did I.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 6:17 PM EST

we are talking about the cost curves here folks. each x of damage costs the same amount and is therefore linear.

compare that to elven gloves where each plus costs more than the previous, this cost model is a curve.

QBRanger December 10 2009 6:26 PM EST

Cost vs effect.

Each +1 on EG linearly increase your dexterity.

Each x1 on a weapon increases its damage by the square root. It is also based upon the users strength so just increasing the x does not linearly increase damage.

At least as I understand it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 6:55 PM EST

does each x have the same effect? yes

the model is linear then.

see the uc thread for a spreadsheet showing a curve, it even has a graph for a visual aid!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 10 2009 6:59 PM EST

what you are saying is that the cost and effect do not have a one to one ratio but that has nothing to do with the whether it is a linear or curve model.

Godpanda December 10 2009 9:42 PM EST

See, I'm 100% with Lochnivar here.

Despite all the claims, despite all the "factual" data pointing out the exbow as being overpowered... It's just not being used. Or, it's being used, just not to the massive extent that some people are claiming.


I go through the top 100 players... And I don't see a pool of Exbows at the top, followed by the tanks living in the shadow of the exbows, and then everything else.

Yes, Sutekh brings up a fine point. The point of which I speak is where he mentioned that the Exbow gives, to put it simply, a huge bang for the buck. It does. But the issue I have with this is that, A) Players seem to ignore that the Exbow is a MPR/NW to MPR/NW counter. It is, infact, the ONLY such counter in the game. The Mage Shield used to be similar, but it only countered NW to MPR (As in, you buffed the NW of the item to counter the MPR of an opposing team). The Mageseeker is a MPR/NW counter to MPR.

My point is, to be clear, that the Exbow (and Axbow, to be fair) is the only item that takes a large sink of Experience and of CBD to counter larger sinks of Experience and CBD. The point is, it is ALWAYS going to take a significant portion of a player's resources to develop. And it will ONLY ever nullify a particular type of minion. Not beat, just nullify.

Now, some would claim that is identical. But permit me the chance to prove otherwise. If a tank based team lost it's ability to deal damage, it wouldn't lose. It would simply lose it's ability to win. But how can the team with the Exbow win? Well, not easily. They can't use GA, because, obviously, they've stopped the tank from dealing damage. They can't use a ranged weapon, because they're already using the exbow! They could use a second minion trained in magic, but then that makes for a much smaller Exbow minion, which is less of a chance to reduce a tank's strength. And we're going for total nullification. Now, you could always make your exbow minion very large with a small mage, but a small mage can still be stopped by large amounts of AC, armor, various tattoos, AMF. You see where I'm going.

Or they could make another tank on the team. Or just give the Exbow minion a melee weapon. But, boy, that's expensive. Not many player's can afford to field an Exbow capable of annihilating a huge (or even equal sized tank) and then afford the weapon necessary to finishing the team off.

The point is, the REASON the Exbow isn't OP, the reason you don't seem them fighting up ridiculously high.... Is because it can't. There's not enough MPR or NW on the smaller teams to both neutralize a large tank and THEN kill it.

Could an Exbow team be used with realistic resource levels to fight UP against tank teams? Probably. Would it beat any other type of team in the game? No. It wouldn't even come close.

The Exbow doesn't feel balanced. I don't deny that. But everytime I look at it the game, everytime I look at the "real world" of CB... Exbows just aren't dominating.

As for my "chaos spreading", Ranger, well... Not sure what to say. It's not my intention. I just find it hard to make rational posts nowadays. Because I have a good feeling my post will be ignored as thoroughly as Lochnivar's. Why should I use anything but sarcasm and skeptisism for people that don't look past their own agendas? I obviously generalize, only a few people on the forums are like that.... But, boy, do they seem to be everywhere.

BHT December 10 2009 9:46 PM EST

Well, Couldnt they just have an Exbow minion, then a Familiar, such as Hal, or even a DD one. Nullify and kill?

Godpanda December 10 2009 9:49 PM EST

They could indeed! Of course, the exbow, even the strongest and on the largest minions, does take a round or two to finish the nullification. Not many 1 minion + familiar teams will survive that. Indeed, my team has 20 million HP on 1 familiar + a mage familiar, and I don't survive 2 rounds!

No matter how you work it, there's too many things needed to do it to allow someone to effectively fight up. At least, not that I've thought of.


Mikel December 10 2009 9:57 PM EST

So you think the slightly buggy method it works vs my team is acceptable as well?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 10 2009 10:01 PM EST

Mikel, the only 2 weapons in the game that can do that are the exbow and the axbow. Neither of them deal a significant amount of damage and they will only skip to the other minions 1 time each. That is 3 rounds of a weapon that deals very little damage.

QBRanger December 10 2009 10:02 PM EST

GW,

I see your points and understand why you believe them.

However, I view things a bit differently having experienced a "you know an overpowered item when you see it". And I will again quote something in the history of CB that you obvious know. But will reexplain to those new to the game.

Let us chat about the VB for a few minutes.

When it first came out AC was much more powerful, about 20%, and people were starting to get large ToE and AC. Back them the ToE decreased damage by 70% across the board. This was before the RBF was changed to its present form.

It had a base of 75 and was 1 handed. It cut endurance by 50% at that time.

All in all, an extremely powerful weapon. And more battle went to melee back then due to a few other factors that have been changed/introduced.

So it was only being compared to the mighty MH and a few made rather large ones. I myself posted time and time again (like I do now) about how overpowered it was. When Jon understood how powerful it was and nerf it, it got nerfed to uselessness. I lost over 70M selling it. This was before disenchanting was born.

I think we are seeing people scared to making a largish exbow, knowing it is nerfbait. Only now we are seeing a few more, but I will not make one due to my VB experience.

Now, to your point about needed another damage if you use the exbow. That would be very true if not for tattoos. They allow you to have a main exbow user and a tattoo for the damage. Or better yet, the RBF, which you do not care about GA and how to beat it.

Your discussion was very well thought out. But having experienced losing a lot of CB on an overpowered item, I see things differently.

For me, just the fact a 70M exbow can kill my character in 1-2 hits just fails the "smell" test.

And yes, I use lose instead of nullify. Vs a tank character they are the same as a stalemate to me is a loss. Since without the exbow I would have won.

QBRanger December 10 2009 10:07 PM EST

GW,

I would love to see someone use Nem's strategy with a minions from the beginning. Using and growing both the exbow and RBF while fighting up.

To see how long one can get a large CB.

Like LR did with his character and UC/Jig.

Godpanda December 10 2009 10:22 PM EST

Well, I agree totally about the smell test. The Exbow SMELLS terrible. It feels OP. It really does.

On paper, it seems ridiculous. Even as I was writing my post, I couldn't help but feel that it was too strong. But I thought the logic overrode my own feelings.

But to each their own.


As to you, Mikel, I don't know the bug. But bugs are never good. However, I'm not sure why anything in my post suggested to you I was okay with bugs?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 10 2009 10:26 PM EST

It's not a bug. It is just the exbow seeking out the highest str minion at the start of each round. Should I not be able to drain 23 str off of the front minion?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 10 2009 10:35 PM EST

Also, I would like to point out that not all NW is equal. It highly depends on where the NW is invested. There is no reason that my 70 mil NW exbow should not work just as well as a 200 mil NW exbow against certain targets. It is all in the way the item is used and where the NW is put in on it. It would take almost another 100 pth into my exbow (a very large investment) for me to even start getting any additional effect against ranger with it. For that matter a +0 exbow with the same amount of NW into the x would work just as well as the one I am using now (which would be even cheaper around 48 mil NW).

I am not saying that the exbow couldn't use some more work on it. It certainly can, both to make some areas better and others worse. But it doesn't seem to me to be as overpowered as it is so often made out to be.

On a side note once I get an AoAC it should become impossible for current exbow users as they are to put me into negative str.

QBRanger December 10 2009 10:35 PM EST

Nem,

If there was a way for Mikel to lower his minions strength all to base 0, the exbow would not target minions he does not want you to hit. He is getting penalized due to minions having a base 20 strength with no additional xp added.

Please do not state this is not an unintended consequence of the item. Of course it is.

It may not mean a lot of damage, but 300k a hit x 2 hits a round x 4 rounds = 2.4M additional damage Mikel takes that he should normally not.

FailBoat[SG] December 10 2009 10:44 PM EST

I'm an Exbow short of running a RoBF/Exbow single minion team. This should be highly amusing.

QBsutekh137 December 10 2009 11:55 PM EST

GW, valuable stuff, told in a direct, open way. I appreciate it, and I can honestly see that Ranger does, too. (Seriously, this is an amazingly civil thread for 150+ posts!)

When you say it smells bad but logically has a reason (a bit of a para-phrase, but I don't think it lacks justice...) -- that is telling. It is the very point, in fact.

You are 100% right. The exbow has a reason, a purpose, as Agent Smith, might say. That's valuable. But as we saw with Agent Smith, he missed the point. He was trying to use his purpose to "fix" something that wasn't broken in the first place (Neo and, well, everything along with it). Or, at the very least, he was trying to fix something that would have worked better tweaked instead of absorbed or destroyed. Coexistence instead of conquest. The Machine City understood that, eventually. Agent Smith did not. We know how that ended. *smile*

Movie metaphors aside, if the logic seems to be there, (but it smells bad) then I feel, in my experience with the game, that means (sorry Bast), the problem exists upstream. It is the FIX that smells bad. The fix needs to happen, indeed. But the implementation is not the right way of getting it done.

If I may say, Ranger has said I stated things succinctly way up this thread. GW, you just stated the "meta" of where I am coming from better than I ever have done.

QBRanger December 11 2009 12:02 AM EST

There is going to be 1 simple way to find out if the exbow is or is not too powerful.

Just make a missile weapon salvage yard.

See what all the x20k+ weapons migrate to.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 12:10 AM EST

I have a feeling they will migrate all over.

QBRanger December 11 2009 12:12 AM EST

Migrate over to what?

If you are typing about the exbow, is that not the definition of too powerful?

But hopefully we will be given the opportunity to see for ourselves.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 12:13 AM EST

All over as in the SoD, exbow, ELB, and Msk. I don't think they will all go to any 1 weapon.

QBRanger December 11 2009 12:44 AM EST

Something to consider.

Z, using a x6000 exbow was doing 600k+ damage a round to me per hit.

Imagine that weapon as x25k. Probably do 1.5M a hit at least.

Yes, it was with 16M strength.

The two biggest exbows don't reduce my strength to zero within 10 hits. Which means they need to still be firing when they get to melee. The exbow isn't the reason those two teams - Jir's and Nightstrike's - beat me either. One has a lot of SG, the other has the RBF.

I have to respond to this by JW. He is using the ToE which of course reduces the strength drain by reducing damage.

He is one of the few people in the top 100 using a ToE. Most likely due to his tattoos relatively lower level. Which is the smartest of all moves considering the ToE gives the best bang for the level at lower levels.

But to be fair, using your character to base drain is not fully logical in this discussion. I would hope nobody is advocating having to use a ToE if you want to stop an exbow. It is a way, yes, but not a real good one.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 12:48 AM EST

Why? It's a great way to defend against the ELB according to you... why not the ex?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 12:50 AM EST

If I could get a big melee weapon I would consider going to ToE or RoS myself.

QBRanger December 11 2009 12:50 AM EST

Never said it was a "great" way. In fact it stinks but is a way.

I do list it in the different ways one can defeat the elb as I see it being used for that purpose by JW. Maybe not massive ELBs but still works vs all but the highest ones.

There are other ways to defeat the ELB however, far more than the exbow.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 12:55 AM EST

That makes sense considering the ex does nothing against more than half the teams in the game. An item that is essentially defensive shouldn't require the same number of counters as one that is not only offensive, but capable of killing all minions on an opposing team before most other attacks start.

FailBoat[SG] December 11 2009 12:57 AM EST

Novice... Using defensive vs Offensive stats for an item makes me remember the days of Named-Upgraded Arrows and how you could just throw them on when you went offline to insure your win. Remember how that turned out?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 12:59 AM EST

Silva: one of us is misunderstanding something.

QBRanger December 11 2009 1:00 AM EST

Should it?

Considering the 1/2 of the characters it is useful against it is extremely useful in doing its job. Which is 1-2 hits = win vs most tanks.

And it does all this for far less NW than an ELB.

Sort of the old AG vs NSC debate.

The AG are useful vs both DM and AMF characters. The NSC is only useful vs AMF characters and give nothing vs AMF ones.

Yes what do most people use? The NSC! Why? Vs those 1/2 of characters with AMF it does its job just too finger licking good.

So while the exbow is nearly useless vs 1/2 of the characters in CB, it does its job too freaking good vs those characters.

But let us see when x25000 exbow come about and how 'useless' they are. Doing 1M damage a hit (just a rough guess considering the info we currently have).

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 1:07 AM EST

I'm all for giving someone a reason for creating an ex that big (isn't that what CB is all about?) by allowing tanks to invest in defense.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 6:46 AM EST

The give me something as specialized to work vs DD. But that will never happen.


What like the MGS, RBF or AMF as I posted above?

Or do you still want an Anti DD Weapon. Like the Mageseeker perhaps?

I posted why we've not got a DD version of the E/AXBow towards the start of the thread.

QBJohnnywas December 11 2009 7:02 AM EST

My mageseeker allows me to beat almost every mage team in the game, except for a few large SGs, one CoC team, and a couple of Electric Familiars.

But then again if you set the team up right the ELB is as specialised against mages as it is against tanks.

FailBoat[SG] December 11 2009 8:33 AM EST

GL, the issue with those "Anti-DD" pieces of equipment that you mention is that all they do is hinder the DD's ability, slightly. Whereas the Exbow shuts down the Target in its entirety. Sure, a PL Wall with a MGS does the same thing in a way, but not on a permanent basis. Once that wall is gone, the Mage is free to do as it pleases at full strength, if its survived and the fight is still ongoing.

Novice... Don't mind the sleepy ranting I do. I'm not even sure what my point was there. o.O

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 9:20 AM EST

It's all size SG.

Get a MGS large enough to reduce DD by 100% and you're in the same place (Except that doesn't need two hits, or any hits as all, isn't counterable, isn't compared to any of the attackers stats, and can be stacked with AMF and RBF reductions to reach that magical 100%).

Besides, as I mention above, it's a problem of the Binary to hit nature, and the difference between that, and the layered step wise nature of DD damage reduction.

For example A Ranged attacker hitting for;

(I'll err on the side of caution with triple hits here)
Round 1: 100% + 100% + 100%
Round 2: 50% + 50% + 50%
Round 3-6: 0% + 0% +0%

(450% total damage over 6 rounds)

Is akin to hitting a DD (in range) with a (pre Ranged round penalties) flat 25% reduction.

Round 1 to 6: 75% Damage

(450% overall)

That's the problem with trying to equate the EXBow effects from physical to magical.

(And yes, the DD would continue into Melee and still do damage, while the Tank might swap to a Melee weapon and continue to deal no damage...)

Caveat: I would like the Drain of the EXBow amended. I would like the whole binary nature of the to hit system changed. But trying to equate the physical side of CB to the magical doesn't work.

For one, we would need to be told by the Devs how many hits per round physical to magical damage is based on. Which has *never* been released.

FailBoat[SG] December 11 2009 9:28 AM EST

See GL, even with a large enough MGS stacked with AMF -and- a RBF, you still run into the fact that once that minion dies to other damage, the mage is free to go on a hunt. And while I agree that comparing physical to magical is completely illogical, its the only way to bring to fact how stupid this item is.

Don't get me wrong, I totally feel that the Exbow should stay in the game. But there have been multiple threads suggesting ways to limit the pure amount that the Exbow can drain without completely invalidating the item.

The powers that be though, feel that the item is perfectly fit into its niche of rendering a giant Tank weapon useless, which it does flawlessly. However, there is no way to recover from this item.

People have been saying that it just means you have to have multiple damage dealers on your team but I thought Carnage Blender was a game where the player chose how they wanted to play. Why should I, or anyone for that matter, not be allowed to play a Single Tank team purely because there is an item that drains all of my strength in the first round and prevents me from ever recovering it? And to top that off, I'm then told that I'm forced to pick up a second damage minion to compensate for this BUT, it can't be a tank type because then it would just get its strength sapped to nothing after the first tank.

So basically, what we're telling new players is that you -have- to play a mage because otherwise all of your damage will get nullified and, ya know what, we're not going to change that because that's how things will be fixed. Instead of throwing an upgrade curve on the ELB and making it so that upgrading the weapon to x25k isn't really that useful, we let people upgrade to that size and then throw in something to completely destroy an entire strategy.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 9:35 AM EST

See GL, even with a large enough MGS stacked with AMF -and- a RBF, you still run into the fact that once that minion dies to other damage, the mage is free to go on a hunt.


That stacked MGS/RBF/AMF minion could be the sole damage dealer of the team, backed by a PL/TSA minion.

It still doesn't change anything. ;)


QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 9:37 AM EST

SG, some have been saying there are other ways to resist, such as a lot of AC, TOE, etc. Even EC could help, though that is certainly a tough pill to swallow due to it's dilution and specificity. This is all true.

But while there are these other foils, I would counter with saying heavy use of such things sorta renders the tank not-much-of-a-tank from the start. That's why when I think of "real" tanks affected by the exbow, I tend to think of ToA tanks (can't have a lot of armor, and certainly cannot have a ToE) and Halidons (no ToE and still hard to protect, even with Junction).

So, you are right -- that does point to needing alternate damage dealers, something that again flies in the face of the overall "taste" of CB2. The game usually rewards non-dilution. Hell, when it comes to stacking DEs against DM, non-dilution is absolutely essential (as an example). It's just another thing that makes the exbow not smell right.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 9:37 AM EST

Why should I, or anyone for that matter, not be allowed to play a Single Tank team purely because there is an item that drains all of my strength in the first round and prevents me from ever recovering it?


No one's saying that.

It's general versus specific. Like when I ran my single UC tank and got butchered mercelssly by the uber specialised anti Tank strat of SPs 4 x EC team.

Not everyone uses an EXBow. Not every EXBow will drain all your STR.

But you *want* to run a specific non generalised team, you take the penalty of being weak to speicif focuses counters.

Adding a Mage would make your team more generalised, and have an easier time facing all comers.

Your choice.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 9:39 AM EST

(Another Caveat, I see the EXbow as another Cloak of Balrog Flame - white I riled tirelessly against - and would like it changed. My comments in this thread have no bearing on my desire to see the EXbow adjusted.)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:40 AM EST

its the only way to bring to fact how stupid this item is.


it really doesn't help the argument at all and distracts from the meat in the threads that are actually seeking solutions by causing tangent arguments to pop up proving how silly of a statement it is, imho! ; )

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 9:45 AM EST

Sut: while CB rewards specificity it also punishes it. My team is where it is because I've not only cut my damage dealers in half, I've also varied the damage (the reason why even when my ex and PL fail to save me from the ex or elb I often manage to win). Defeating everyone requires dilution at this point.

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 9:55 AM EST

Yes, novice, and Dagobah is a VERY special aberration. The ability to "beat everyone" is rarely something that even exists in CB-land.

In summary, I am not sure Dagobah is the best example of potential solutions, because so few people have it's total PR. How do I know it is an aberration? Because even when I devoted two-thirds of my (larger) MPR to foiling your AS, I still couldn't beat you.

Not much of a reward for specificity vs generic there. And no, even though the exbow was part of our back and forth for a time, this isn't about that. You had me beat in many different ways, a testament to your excellent tactics. So I in no way mean this to sound like sour grapes. You bested Hubbell straight up. But I will still insist that Dagobah is not a great example to use.

QBRanger December 11 2009 12:19 PM EST

Novice,

Also your 1B NW contributes to your effectiveness.

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 12:27 PM EST

^^^

Yes, that was the main aberrant factor I was referring to. *smile* Though, using that billion with nuance and flexibility certainly helps, too!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 1:56 PM EST

300m of my NW has not effect on any fight outside of Mikel and I.

Dagobah broken down simply is the very balanced use of two different types of massive damage and more than half the MPR being invested in AS.

I think my point concerning specificity vrs. generalization stands.

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 2:23 PM EST

Then why couldn't I beat you when more than 60% of my MPR was in DM, and my MPR was actually larger than yours?

That specificity failed miserably, and made my DM investment overkill for a lot of other targets.

Mikel may be the only current opponent for whom your NW investment mainly matters, but that has not always been the case. Hubbell (and a massive investment tailored to exactly defeat you) failed.

So, 1 to 1 on whether specificity works, even when invested at the same amount. And here the exbow can be a 100% foil at a much smaller investment. Smells fishy.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 3:03 PM EST

You couldn't beat me because I had the large SF in game, you had zero defense against it. It had little to do with your DM against my AS. We were essentially practically equal on those terms.

That 300m NW actually did nothing in my fights against you Sut. Even without the exbow the Steel familiar and your lack of defense gave me the W.

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 3:29 PM EST

Sure, but you had nothing against my large Hal, either. Tattoo-wise, we were the same in that regard. Both ranged, both large, both junctioned with HoCs. And this was before the Hal nerf, so my Hal was doing some handy damage to you.

An additional facet when fighting you was that even with a massive, specific investment toward nullifying your AS, I couldn't fizzle it all, and your PL battery took over from there. If you truly believe specific attacks should yield decent results against generic effects, then what do you think of PL/TSA? You should be against it, because it prevents an even-steven investment, specifically tailored, from having the desired positive effect. Incidentally, that is one reason the whole "generic vs. specific" argument is somewhat nebulous, because certain builds can incredibly enhance a generic effect such that even a specific foil fails miserably when trained at the same level.

That is, except for the exbow. That appears to be a specific attack that can be invested in to a much smaller degree, and there isn't much a target can do to bolster a generic attack against it. You can keep talking about AC and the TOE, but you know as well as I do that such tanks are going to also-rans because of needing to train SS, using a ToE, or using heavy armor that leads to penalties. Bye bye, tanks!

So sure, let the exbow as is. But then I'd like to see PL/TSA gone. Either that, or we can pretty much stop talking about the whole specific vs generic since it really doesn't hold water in that case.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 3:41 PM EST

Is it strange that I am moving into being a heavy tank then?

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 4:06 PM EST

I don't know, how is it working out for you...? (and I am not seeing a heavy tank -- where is it?)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 4:08 PM EST

I don't have all the equipment yet, so the highest AC I can get to right now is 263, so for now at least this setup continues to be slightly better. But once I get over 300 AC I will be switching over to a heavy tank.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 11 2009 4:09 PM EST

I'm also a short stint using an RoE away from running a heavy T myself. Going all offense is so last year!

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 4:11 PM EST

I don't know if it is strange or not. If you are doing all of that to overcome the exbow, and it doesn't make you lose any of your fight list (and no one can add you), then I guess it's a good idea.

It will mean all tanks can switch to being heavy with no downside, and the exbow will become a paperweight. If it is as simple as that, then great!

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 4:18 PM EST

And that will also, of course, make the ToA completely unnecessary -- if everyone can just build a conventional tank and crank up the damage reduction to nullify all exbow use, then we can just get rid of the ToA and exbow entirely. A return to simpler times!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 4:25 PM EST

But then I'd like to see PL/TSA gone. Either that, or we can pretty much stop talking about the whole specific vs generic since it really doesn't hold water in that case.


Word.

The TSA/PL combo sucks so hard. It's something utterly generic, that props up the recent (lol, well last real gameplay) change to reducing damage and making HP that much more improtant.

It's a reason that the RoS/AS (and GA) combo is also so powerful. Generic uber strats that rule all.

It's telling when *any* team, can just strap on a TSA/PL minion with no thought to strategy and improve.

QBsutekh137 December 11 2009 4:34 PM EST

Perhaps we'll see all the tanks become heavy-defense minions wielding MoDs. *smile*
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