Taking the top with a single minion (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 12:58 PM EDT

I've recently gone from having a 4 minion familiar based team to a single minion melee tank. The difference in power is dramatic really.

With similar PR I'm looking at less than half the total team HP, 4 less kill slots, 3m less AMF. On the up side I've got enough dex to be able to actually hit with my exbow (most of the time).

Is it even plausible for a single minion character to hold a spot in the top five, let alone #1?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 15 2010 1:23 PM EDT

No.

Phone ate my post so will elaborate when i get home

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 15 2010 1:28 PM EDT

Isn't Zenai more or less holding a spot in the top 5?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 1:35 PM EDT

No, he's got three regular farmers that drag him out of the top 5 on a daily basis

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 15 2010 1:36 PM EDT

So your basis is top 5 score?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 1:38 PM EDT

Well it's an intermediate goal at least. Staying in the top 5 for an extended period of time (which generally requires that only those who are also in the top 5 can beat you) is a clear sign that you're nearly unbeatable.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 15 2010 1:42 PM EDT

So then I guess the top 5 would be Dagobah, The Immortals, FTW, Team Rocket, and Heroes? At least for right now.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 1:51 PM EDT

something like that, but AA, and Zenai likely trade places pretty regularly

It would be different without Mikel dragging scores down obviously

Demigod July 15 2010 1:54 PM EDT

It's fair to say that taking the top spot with a single minion is an act of pride, not of strategy. Aside from Zen trying to get a single minion as high as he can, anyone else would have hired a 2nd minion by now.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 1:59 PM EDT

Zen would have hired a long time ago if I hadn't threatened him every time he suggests it. On another note, I'm actually of the opinion that long term it might be strategically beneficial to have the XP concentration of a single minion.

However the massive discrepancy in actual power compared to PR is a bit disheartening. I'm hoping that at some point being able to focus XP on just HP will trump everything else.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 15 2010 2:08 PM EDT

Home!

OK, what I was going to say was;

I love single minions. Always have, always will. I've only recently come round to dropping one for a 'proper' team.

Nov, I really hope you proove me wrong, and I really hope you're totally sucessful with a single minion.

But.

CB neuters them far too much. Off the top of my head;

Choice between a Tattoo and a TSA (or BoE)
No use from Leadership
Forced into using AMF over EC/DM or having *no* protection to Decay
PL
AS

As for XP concentration, that's bunk. Imagine a single minion Tank who trains 1/4 of thier total XP into AMF. A 4 minion team will *always* have more AMF, even if they only train it on one minion, as they can then utilise a Corn, BoE and SB on that minion, while the Single Minion can't.

And they also get a Kill slot / Spread damage for DD.

The *only* case a single minion has anything over multi minion teams is when facing a SoD. The SoD does more damage the more minions it faces.

That's it.

QBRanger July 15 2010 2:17 PM EDT

No,

You are losing a lot of "potential" power using a tattoo on a single minion.

You lose the body armor and cloak slots, which on a minion of that magnitude is a LOT of potential power lost.

In addition, your EO and ED spells are not as powerful as they can be without a corn, using a HoC instead.

Zenai July 15 2010 2:24 PM EDT

Zen would have hired a long time ago if I hadn't threatened him every time he suggests it.

In all honesty nov I really never would have hired. All I really needed was to get some strategy talk out of my head. The best way for me to get it was to threaten to hire a minion which you abhorred......lol

Since I am a Clan Leader (again) I get all the strat talk I can get when I want it so no problems. Aside from that I'm right behind you nov and eventually I will catch you, as far as my farmers I'll be handling that when the time comes. One thing I have definitely noticed is that patience pays off quite well so I will be patient >:-D

Oh and to answer your question yes it can be done nov it just takes a whole lot more for a SM to get to that spot.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 15 2010 2:26 PM EDT

No Z. ;)

It takes the largest Elbow and ToA in the game to stand a chance at that. Due only to Ranged going first.

And that chance can be reduced by 5 minion teams, which limit your ability to kill all in Ranged.

QBJohnnywas July 15 2010 3:26 PM EDT

A single minion tank works better without a tattoo providing you replace it with nw. Tsa, dbs, ec, etc etc.
I think.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 3:38 PM EDT

a TSA can't hope to match the power of a near max tat ToA

Demigod July 15 2010 4:24 PM EDT

a TSA can't hope to match the power of a near max tat ToA

I've got to side with this comment. TSAs are excellent, but tats are required.

AdminTitan July 15 2010 4:40 PM EDT

Nope, no one is going to be #1 with a single minion. Unless they are much, much larger than other teams. Or, everyone else decides they don't want to beat them.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 15 2010 4:43 PM EDT

The only way they would have a chance I think would be with a tank without a tat and maxed up on enc. To take #1 that is.

AdminTitan July 15 2010 4:44 PM EDT

I made that suggestion to nov, but he didn't like it. But, truthfully, the same strategy would work phenomenally better as two minion.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] July 15 2010 4:46 PM EDT

Of course it would. But that would be the most likely chance for a single minion.

three4thsforsaken July 15 2010 4:48 PM EDT

Maybe 2 years ago, when people didn't try so hard to optimize xp concentration, but no way can a single minion hold top spot not without an absurd MPR advantage.

QBJohnnywas July 15 2010 4:55 PM EDT

The only real difference between my tank as a tattooless single and the team i have now is killslots. Near same fightlist. Toa is only good for pth. Have you tried a tsa on this one? Maybe with a morg? Ill loan u mine

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 4:56 PM EDT

I don't see the petty regen from the TSA or the damage reduction of the Adam matching the giant amount of XP the ToA gives.

To be able to do enough damage as a tatless tank, I'd have half the HP I do now.

I firmly believe that the setup I've got now given enough concentration of power could have a chance. If from here to oblivion I do nothing but add HP and weapon X, depending on the ToA to add plus and STR I'm fairly certain I can outpace the GA AS teams.

QBJohnnywas July 15 2010 5:08 PM EDT

Dont underestimate the combo of tsa regen and morg va. Coming back to life is worth a lot.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 5:18 PM EDT

I've tried it JW, it might (and I stress might) gain me one of the GA/AS teams, but that hardly makes up for losing most of my fightlist.

QBJohnnywas July 15 2010 5:40 PM EDT

what about taking a leaf from mine: mageseeker(with archery but you'll still be melee based) singleminion works best with large damage upfront.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 5:58 PM EDT

Yeah, but then I'm just a weaker Zenai, if I wanted to let him beat me I'd have stayed with Dagobah.

Zenai July 15 2010 6:36 PM EDT

Hehe I can beat you now nov it just happens to be more of you winning than me at present, but looks are deceiving. I can easily solve this by adding another +50 or so to my DBs. I already have almost a Mil Dex on you, and I have the cash to pop onto the X of my ELB and more than 400 Mil in Wiggle room before I hit my ENC Limit diminishing returns or not I Can Beat you if I wanted to :-P

Soxjr July 15 2010 6:46 PM EDT

We can always make this discussion easier.

Can a single minion with the same net worth beat a multi-minion team? Simple.

I personally don't think that a multi minion team with equal net worth would lose to a single minion. If the multi minion team is set up with a good strategy. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Zenai July 15 2010 6:54 PM EDT

Not to flex muscles here but:

The Immortals(1,327,025,638)
Heroes (971,294,783)

FuerGrissa ost Drauka(857,560,742)

I farm both of them Sox so that part of the discussion is now solved. A Single Minion can beat Multiminion teams of Similar or higher NW with well thought out Strategies.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 6:56 PM EDT

I don't think all of that would actually let you add me Zenai, and you're forgetting that I can do the same.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 15 2010 6:58 PM EDT

i think it is necessary to compare minions with maxed net worth. can a single minion team with maxed out nw compete with a 4 minion team with all of the minions maxed on net worth?

Zenai July 15 2010 7:01 PM EDT

Oh it would nov I borrowed Mikel's DBs and leveled you every single fight a while back and yes I know we can play musical Enc Limits :-)

Zenai July 15 2010 7:09 PM EDT

Dudemus: Now that would be very interesting but at our levels that would be all but impossible to do. Maybe with Freed, nov, myself, Immortal AA and a few others working together we could do it. However I would still have to say this would probably still not solve the question as you could be at ENC Limits and still be weak to another strat and lose as a result. I honestly do not think this would be the best way to get an answer to this question.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 7:26 PM EDT

there are just too many options to test dude...

Zenai: that's just another example of how broken the ranged penalties to hit are for the exbow... I have more PTh on my exbow than Mikel's dbs (after the ToA) and yet because of the hideous penalties you evade every hit despite nearly equal dex.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 15 2010 7:30 PM EDT

yes, you would definitely need similar strategies or else there is no point in comparing.

for ease of comparison say you have a single minion team and a four minion team using equal level robf's. with each minion maxing out their nw, who would be stronger?

if you break it down like that, i think the answer is as obvious as it was when i had the largest single minion in the game several years ago...more gear slots and kill slots mean more power across the board.

Zenai July 15 2010 8:14 PM EDT

Zenai: that's just another example of how broken the ranged penalties to hit are for the exbow... I have more PTh on my exbow than Mikel's dbs (after the ToA) and yet because of the hideous penalties you evade every hit despite nearly equal dex.

Please nov let's not get into this at all. 1 Hit and all of my impressive 20+ Mil Str is gone, don't attempt to tell me that is not broken nov(even with only 8.7 Mil HP). Plus I have to Train a Skill to use my Ranged Weapon or I get worse Penalties than you do with the ExBow and I have MASSIVE NW into mine backed with a ToA only a few hundred K Levels behind yours and Massive BG's plus Almost a Mil Dex on you that is why I hit so much/hard nov. Even with the #2 DBs in the Game and the Dex Gap I still get hit by you and as I stated above 1 Hit is all it takes.

Yeah those penalties are soooo unfair to the ExBow nov.....if it were toned down a bit then I might say give it less penalties but it is a one shot killer right now so yeah the penalties at least even it out some.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 8:19 PM EDT

You hit for between 3-5 m up to four times a round... don't talk to me about what one hit can do...

Zenai July 15 2010 8:28 PM EDT

You hit for between 3-5 m up to four times a round... don't talk to me about what one hit can do...

Hah 3 - 4 Times a Round eh nov? With 16,224,000 HP that's not much of a Big Deal when I have Another 4 Mil+ on you in Strength and you take it ALL away in 1 Shot.

Now what comparison were you attempting to use again?

Here I'll give you one, even with 20+ Mil HP imagine if I could take you out in 1 Shot nov...........

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 15 2010 10:37 PM EDT

Personally I wish cb was a bit more strategy based rather then who has the "biggest baddest bow" and "highest net worth". The day a single minion team is number 1. Will be the day I quit, and probably many others.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 10:42 PM EDT

I considering fighting the long fight and trying to focus XP and NW strategic...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 10:50 PM EDT

Dexterity 17,121,013
Ranged Base to-Hit 56
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 343

and I'm still capable of missing Zenai in round 1

Dexterity: 14,153,042
Lesson of the Baka Ban Mana [0] (+215) worth $103,392,673

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 10:51 PM EDT

heck I miss in round 2 as well

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 15 2010 10:55 PM EDT

-nov

I really hope you're not calling for a buff of the exbow -_- ....

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 15 2010 10:59 PM EDT

I'm calling for it do it's damn job, the ELB is nearly impossible to evade and that's fine but making the exbow's CTH less than half of what you've actually paid for is brutal.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 15 2010 11:12 PM EDT

I agree the CTH of bows that are not the ELB all need some work, but if that happened I think you would see it's strength damage reduction changed somehow.

Zenai July 16 2010 12:06 AM EDT

I'm calling for it do it's damn job, the ELB is nearly impossible to evade and that's fine but making the exbow's CTH less than half of what you've actually paid for is brutal.

nov you are not having to train a Skill to use it either, it is doing it's job inside the parameters it was given. If I didn't have to train Archery my HP would be much higher but if that were the case I would have MUCH worse penalties than you have now on my ELB. Because of this there is going to be a discrepancy in the comparison, it is not Bow against Bow, Dex against Dex, and DB's against DB's I have a Skill to buff things as well and it is expensive EXPwise.

Construct
Burning Trident lvl 14,735,330 owned by QBnovice (Construct)
Hit Points: 16,248,805
Armor: 107
Strength: 14,984,304
Dexterity: 13,383,404
laser cannons [4x6332] (+290) worth $264,957,941 owned by QBnovice (Construct)
stone feet w/infusion of blink owned by QBnovice (Construct) (it's under +165)


FuerGrissa ost Drauka
The War Wizard Gift lvl 14,651,837 owned by Zenai (FuerGrissa ost Drauka)
Hit Points: 8,700,000
Armor: 74
Strength: 20,285,192
Dexterity: 14,153,042
Archery: 4,230,000
Vengeance of the Four Winds [6x50000] (+160) worth $438,845,294 owned by Zenai (FuerGrissa ost Drauka)
Lesson of the Baka Ban Mana [0] (+215) worth $103,392,673 owned by Zenai (FuerGrissa ost Drauka)


Now with almost a mil dex gap in my favor it should be a little harder to hit me and easier for me to hit you with a Trained Skill Added. There is nothing wrong with your ExBow nov you just want it to work better than it does now and the only way to do that is to up your + which at this point for you is insanely expensive both monetarily and PRwise. At this point the only other way to get something done is to complain and hope to have a change put into place. Well if this is the case then I want a Change too, Kill Archery and gimme my Exp Back. Drop the penalties of the ELB without a Skill Trained and give it average penalties then let's talk, sound like a fair deal to you nov?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2010 12:10 AM EDT

If you'd read the example above Zenai you'd see that with 3m more dex than you I still don't always hit. It's silly the discrepancy with CTH in early ranged rounds. I'm supposed to be able to survive double hits for 4 mil for three rounds before my CTH stops being cut in half?

Your skill is completely off the subject, but while we're on it lets talk about BL costing more and going second...

Zenai July 16 2010 12:15 AM EDT

not a chance nov that is for Melee and with only a few hundred K more MPR you have a Ton more in everything than me so in a word "pfft" I am NOT buying this woe is me crap from you right now when you consider this:

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 12:06 AM EDT

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 7 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) FuerGrissa ost Drauka 2 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 7 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 7 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) FuerGrissa ost Drauka 2 Jul 15

Construct (F) (+) (Cult of the Valaraukar) FuerGrissa ost Drauka (I Win) Construct 8 Jul 15

2 Defensive wins out of how many nov? Yeah NOT buying it at all. You have a great Strat with Fully Functional Equips get over that you cannot win them all and be happy you have what you do geeze.

Demigod July 16 2010 12:18 AM EDT

I really don't want this thread to get hijacked into an exbow debate... will you carry it over to it's own thread?

Demigod July 16 2010 12:22 AM EDT

Nevermind, it looks like you took it chat instead. Street fight!

Zenai July 18 2010 12:36 PM EDT

Not to beat a dead horse but I had to clarify a few things here:

Dexterity, Dex, DX: A measure of how often a minion will hit an opposing minion with a physical attack, or vice versa. Two minions with evenly matched dexterity will hit each other about 50% of the time. The maximum number of hits achievable on an opponent due to dexterity is two. More hits per round can only be achieved via 'plus-to-hit' (pth).


Even with my Dex higher you STILL hit me Almost every single round, so much for the 50/50 it's saying here eh nov? It's more like 90% in your favor 10% in mine.


Your skill is completely off the subject.......

No it is not and you know it nov. Archery directly affects my ability to hit you in Ranged.

Archery: All bows will fire in all five ranged rounds. However, without Archery trained, bows receive a significant penalty to their base chance to hit (CTH) -- 80% penalty, or a total of 20% CTH. This CTH is where you start before calculating effects from dexterity or plus to hit (PTH). With an Archery trained up to an effect of 1.00, you can minimize this penalty and maximize your base CTH. For all bows other than the Elven Long Bow (ELB), this will maximize at 90% CTH (10% penalty) at an Archery of 1.00. The ELB is the only bow that can achieve a full 100% CTH (no penalty) with full Archery trained. The CTH is interpolated linearly when Archery is somewhere between 0.00 and 1.00: (Archery * 0.8) + 0.2.

Helm of Clearsight: Allows for an additional Ranged Combat round of attacks (see Note). Note: The extra round comes at the beginning of Ranged Combat. Physical attacks use the modifiers relevant for the last round of ranged (range of 2). Magical attacks use the modifiers relevant for the first round of melee (range of 1).

More often than not nov in our battles you hit me in the 1st Round sometimes you miss the 2nd round but I usually get hit every Round by you, which means if not for this piece of Armor combined with Archery I would not be able to do any real damage to you before you ExBowed my Str to Death. I won't even bring up the DBs again since they are all but irrelevant against your massive CTH at this point.


It's doing it's job nov.

Zenai July 18 2010 12:37 PM EDT

a visual reinforcement of my case

Photobucket

Phoenix [The Forgehood] July 18 2010 1:04 PM EDT

wow 4m damage down to 600s.

FailBoat[SG] July 18 2010 1:39 PM EDT

Thats a single shot from an ExBow for a lot less of the damage and it destroys his damage that badly?

QBRanger July 18 2010 1:44 PM EDT

Again,

The exbow is just a stupid stupid stupid weapon.

Any item that is a 1 hit=win is just stupid for a game like this.

lostling July 18 2010 3:25 PM EDT

kill slots ftw =x

Zenai July 18 2010 3:51 PM EDT

Killslots mean Jack to the MSKer, AxBow and ExBow since they target specific minions. The only instances where this might work is with PL or an AoI.

http://www.carnageblender.com/wiki/Enforcer%27s+Crossbow

Demigod July 18 2010 3:58 PM EDT

I jumped aboard the "overpowered" bandwagon about half a year ago. Having a weapon that targets physical minions is fine, but a one-shot cripple is horribly wrong.

TheShazbot July 18 2010 4:00 PM EDT

Wow. I think we need another novice-targeted changelog. :D

Lochnivar July 18 2010 4:34 PM EDT

Incidentally, due to the damage/hp ratio at work here nov's exbow is draining about 1.34 times the 'usual' amount.

Of course that means the 'usual' one hit drain is over 32mil str.
Zen would need about 30mil hp to get that down under his current str level.

Now to be fair, this is not an enchanter with a 60mil bow doing this.

However, since Zen would have to quad hit himself (at least) in round one to 'kill himself off' in one round it seems that it is reasonable to expect an exbow to have to do something similar to 'kill off' a large tank/archer.

Obviously the different CTH should be factored in here as should the fact that the exbow is otherwise largely ineffective.

Perhaps a gentle nudge, not a nerf, is in order.

Zenai July 18 2010 4:49 PM EDT

Been Saying this for a while Loch but you have missed something here. Without my BGs which give me 51% more damage then it would take me 2 Rounds of Quads to do the same job, nov's wearing EGs. So I think just a bit more than a nudge should happen here. A Higher CTH and a Lower Drain as well as an evening out of Penalties should be set for the Ax/ExBow. In one thing I think nov and I are in total agreement on:

An all or nothing weapon shouldn't exist in CB period, it takes far too much to make it work right and when it does it works too well.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 5:11 PM EDT

It takes me six hits to drain some folks, only people with no defense and minimal HP get drained in a single hit.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 5:18 PM EDT

With all the cries about nerfing the exbow here, including a chime in from Ranger of all people... I just can't see how now one has a problem with Zenai hitting for 4m. He's capable of doing 4m*4*6 before my tank even gets off a single hit with his primary weapon. He invests less in his skill, and has a better base chance to hit. The exbow works like it does directly to combat the insane capabilities of the ELB. I for one believe that melee tanks should have an option to use if they decide to try and take on the big archers. If drain were capped, I'd have much less chance of ever adding Zenai to might fight list, despite having invested almost as much into my defense as he has into offense.

Lochnivar July 18 2010 5:20 PM EDT

I assume, nov, that on those targets the exbow is only hitting for 50k or so in damage (certainly under 100k).

AdminTitan July 18 2010 5:25 PM EDT

Nope, I hit Nem for over 100k sometimes, didn't drain him all through ranged.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 5:26 PM EDT

warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [168686]
Persian looks weaker!
warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [167771]
Persian looks weaker!
warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [169630]
Persian looks weaker!

warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [144125]
Persian looks weaker!
warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [185314]
Persian looks weaker!
warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [172190]
Persian looks weaker!
warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [149462]
Persian looks weaker!

Against someone with actual defense the picture is quite different.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 5:31 PM EDT

Look, here's the bottom line, I've invested a quarter of a billion CB into a DEFENSIVE weapon when it didn't work on a multi minion team because of encumbrance I adjusted, now I've got the same people coming after me again...

So that's it huh, it's not ok to beat archers?

AdminTitan July 18 2010 5:37 PM EDT

Not to mention these facts:

Elbow works on everything, exbow just works on pure physical users.

Elbow has 100 bth and much lower ranged penalties.

Novice could beat Zen with an elbow 1/2 the size of Zen's.


The exbow is very effective at what it does. But with the very diverse teams these days, the exbow only actually affects a few select teams. Who it happens to affect insanely adversely.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 5:47 PM EDT

nov's Bonus to-Hit: 343

Fight 1: M/M/M/H/HH/H
Fight 2: M/M/H/H/HH/HH
Fight 3: M/M - dead from double hits in round 1 and 1 16m+ damage in two rounds
Fight 4: M/M/M - dead from double hits in 1/2 and a single hit in round 3
Fight 5: M/H/H/H/HH/HH

That's real evidence of just how silly ranged penalties are for the exbow. Out of five fights I never hit in round 1.

Zenai July 18 2010 5:54 PM EDT

You only have 100 AC nov so yeah I'm gonna hit you harder just as you have so nonchalantly pointed out I have little to no defense. You have nowhere near the NW I have, invested in my ELB, on your ExBow nov besides the fact I am COMPLETELY geared to do maximum damage. Leave the other Archers out of it since none of them hit within 40% of my Damage capabilities except Heroes(SHD could but is MIA).


Minimal in a skill huh nov? You have less invested in yours than I do in mine and you are doing quite well in the melee damage department thank-you. Aside from that are you kidding about my damage nov? Freaking please dude, as Loch pointed out it would take me Quads (or more without my BGs) to match what you do in a shot. Let's also not forget the closest to mine in the damage multiplier is half of mine, plus I have massive BGs to add 51% of my damage.

Yeah complain that I have more invested into doing Damage than 90% of the teams in CB have invested in everything they have on their char. That makes total sense bro.

BTW we all know about the HP/AC Counter to which you can always up your damage multiplier and train Str. I have to up my multiplier, Train Str, up my Armor, Balance a Skill and Deal with Diminishing returns due to massive PR to do the same thing let's not get on the DB wagon just yet to keep you off of me(more PR here I come!)....such a terrible boat you are in nov just terrible.

Zenai July 18 2010 5:56 PM EDT

Look above nov you hit me in round one as per usual....never say never.

AdminTitan July 18 2010 5:56 PM EDT

Not going to mention my points about the effectiveness of the exbow versus mages?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 5:58 PM EDT

All I'm saying Zenai is that if the drain on the exbow is capped there is nothing stopping you

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 6:01 PM EDT

You just don't get it Zen...

Either it's a good thing that I can specialize and defeat you or it's not. I've got more into my weapons than you've got in your bow, do less damage, and don't really get my offense going until six rounds in. That's all fine, what isn't fine are people hopping back on the OP bandwagon when the only thing all that investment is getting me is 60% win rate.

Zenai July 18 2010 6:04 PM EDT

Nov I'm not saying cap the thing I'm saying to not make it an all or nothing weapon. If the CTH were higher and the Drain a bit lower I would be fine with that at least I can pretend to fight back. I do not mind getting beaten, there are several in the game that can do this without an ExBow believe it or not but at least with them I can actually fight. At this point it is an exercise in a total beatdown after the first shot from an ExBow, the fight should be ended if that happens.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 6:08 PM EDT

If the drain was lessened, I'd lose... you get that right?

I've got more HP on my minion than all but one other minion in game, it takes you 3-5 hits to kill me. If I didn't have dbs there wouldn't even be a chance of me winning most of the time.

Any reduction in power for the exbow would have to coupled with a reduction in ranged rounds and a slashing of both the damage and to hit of the ELB.

AdminTitan July 18 2010 6:08 PM EDT

Zen, either address my point, or quit talking. You're bow owns mages; nov's not so much.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 6:13 PM EDT

Mages? It's mages, chanters, walls, RoBF'ers... nothing stands up to that ELB. If Zen wasn't so damn power mad he could trade in the trained str he has for enough dm to neutralize most GA and I'd be the only person he couldn't farm.

Demigod July 18 2010 6:18 PM EDT

Titan, your point is moot. Of course it's fine to have a weapon that targets physical minions, but to level them in one hit doesn't fit. Just let it take more than the first round do castrate a team.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 6:19 PM EDT

Demi: so you're advocating a 50% cap then?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 18 2010 6:22 PM EDT

we are back to the old argument again, it shouldn't work so fast but with elb archers it really has to or at least with such high nw.

maybe we should just get rid of specialty xbows and remove archery and change the penalty from 80% to 50% or just give all bows cth comparable to crossbows.

Demigod July 18 2010 6:23 PM EDT

I am advocating some type of limit, but I'm against hard caps. I'd like to see some type of increased round-based weapon penalty at least.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 6:30 PM EDT

For the ELB to be a primary weapon it has to be able to kill the majority of teams in ranged, if we no longer want it to fill that role, then fine just destroy the last six years.

Now that you're done with that...

We need a counter to the ELB we have, otherwise Zen wins and we should all go home. We have that counter, it does it's job for the most part and it actually helps make melee tanks (and even single melee tanks) a viable force in the top.

If you don't like 1 hit drain, you might need to ask yourself how you feel about the ELB.

Demigod July 18 2010 6:34 PM EDT

That's pretty fuzzy logic.

Zen is a monster because his bow has enough NW to feed Africa for a year. No one's saying that a similar xbow shouldn't be as potent. The argument is that a regular xbow shouldn't be a one-shot game.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 18 2010 6:35 PM EDT

yeppers, my suggestion would definitely kill off ranged damage as a viable strategy. i never like removing choices and was attempting to make people understand that the elb and the specialty xbows are both sides of the same coin.

i see no way of changing one without the other so any calls for changes really need to address both of those.

i have always really thought that 100 bth is just too good and still do to this day.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2010 6:43 PM EDT

A regular exbow wouldn't even hit Zen, or anyone else wearing dbs.

Zen gets drained because he chose to go with as little HP as he did, other who chose to wear armor or train HP are in a different boat.

The argument here is that there shouldn't be a counter to the archer using dm, or that the counter shouldn't be able to match the power of the ELB. If you lower the power of the exbow it ceases to function as a counter.

Zenai July 18 2010 6:49 PM EDT

Titan: I do not have to even look at your point if I so choose to and I will speak however I choose whether you like it or not. However to make you feel better yes "MOST" Mages I pwn, however ones that Tote massive HPs and have nasty GA eat me up no question asked. Case in point KoP takes me to school whenever he so chooses to period.


Now the real point to be made: All of us up here are complaining, I did mine to prove a point here just one point.

Those of us that are in the higher echelons are freaks of CB. In one way or another we are overblown to epic proportions and because of this shake CB every time we fight/argue/disagree or bring up old moot/negated or dead subjects.

Nerf this because of this, destroy that because of that and so on. Bottom line is simple it's not the same for the players at the lower to mid levels and we are breaking the game to get our way and as a result are screwing it up for everyone else. Just look at this thread right now. Lay down your thoughts, points, ideas and just read it.....looks incredibly silly doesn't it? Break it all down it's akin to two kindergardners having out over who can use the lucky swing and other kindergarders taking sides.

My thoughts are Simple honestly,

Drop Archery and refund everyone's EXP
Up the CTH of the Ax/ExBow
Lower the Penalties on the Ax/ExBow
Lower the Drain of Both
Buff the Mageseeker's Damage
Lower the CTH on the ELB, add average Penalties

Everyone gets to be happy.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 6:58 PM EDT

1: Kill off Ranged. It needs to happen. Ranged damage going first means it can *never* be the primary source of damage, as well, we all know it, nothing else can compete.

Because you're already dead.

Ranged should be, and remain, the opener to any fight., not the decider.

That's why you can stil shoot your Bow (yes yes, with penalties, but you get them in ranged as well...) in Melee.

Largest ELBow in the game shouldn't equal 'IWIN'. That's why x25's were so broken in CB1.

2: The ELBow 100% BTH is stupid. It's stupid. As more of an explaination, it's stupid.

3: The EXBow needs to not be an automtic one hit win versus All Physical Opponents. Either ENC needs to be addressed to make sure this can't happen, or the EXBow itself.

Yes, it should be defensive, and set up a defensive strategy.

But CB isn't, and never should be the Rock - Paper - Scissors of, or EXBow > All PHysical teams.

No matter how big it gets.

4: A defensive set up designed to focus on anti Tank *should work* all the time. But it should also include all defensive elements. ToE over ToA. Shield (and 1H Weapon) over Morg. Kill Slots.

But we all know in CB Offense > Defense.

Wraithlin July 18 2010 7:13 PM EDT

If you don't have a rock-paper-scissor setup with some of the strats in CB then you just have a system of who has the most experience/money invested wins.

There is no strategy to who has the most invested, the reason CB is fun is because you know what hard counters are out there, you know what you have to do to avoid certain ones, and you build your team knowing who you can beat and who you can't.

The hard and obvious counters are what make the game fun for everyone. If you averaged out all the ranged damage and made it so people couldn't kill in ranged, and the exbow didn't beat physical only teams then I think you would just end up with a less enjoyable game.

There are counters to the exbow and elb already out there, choosing not to use one and just hoping to complain about it till your team beats it through a rules change is a bit childish as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:18 PM EDT

There are counters, but it has to be more involved than Rock - Papers - Scissors.

Like instead of a single Item neutering all Physical attacker sint he game, it need to be an utter efensive set up cobining multiple defensive elements, used strategically together.

Call that 'Rock' if you want.

And we have a counter to "The Most Invested Wins". They just both either don't work, or are in dire need of adjustments.

NW Investment should be ENC.

MR Investment should be the N*B.

Zenai July 18 2010 7:18 PM EDT

^
|
|
And there's my point.

Zenai July 18 2010 7:20 PM EDT

err was supposed to be Wraithlin's post I was pointing at but GL makes some good points too :-)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:22 PM EDT

What's the Counter to the ELBow? The EXBow?

And here we've reduced CB to a boring single Item Rock - Paper - Scissors game.

Largest ELBow trumps all but the Largest EXBow which trumps all but the Largest Mage, which trumps all but the Largest ELBow...

Wraithlin July 18 2010 7:26 PM EDT

HP and GA beats an ELB (and DM counters AS/GA)

HP/TSA/PL and a nasty wall minion beats ELB

potentially equal value DBs with evasion minion and EC might beat an ELB too although i'm not sure anyone has tried such.

and of course the exbow as you stated.

FailBoat[SG] July 18 2010 7:28 PM EDT

QBGentlemanLoser 7:22 PM EDT
What's the Counter to the ELBow? The EXBow?

And here we've reduced CB to a boring single Item Rock - Paper - Scissors game.

Largest ELBow trumps all but the Largest EXBow which trumps all but the Largest Mage, which trumps all but the Largest ELBow...

Honestly, this is what the game looks like to people in the lower levels. This is the order of the upper echelons and is the only way it will ever be. Who knows, maybe I'm going crazy but to me, I'm just grinding out a NCB to restart it and grind out another. Because I screwed this one up in the first week and that already determined I wouldn't be able to compete with the big kids for years.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:34 PM EDT

HP and GA beats an ELB (and DM counters AS/GA). HP/TSA/PL and a nasty wall minion beats ELB

Now we're getting into the Strategy of the 'Rock'. ;)

Like using PL to mitigate a portion of EXBow Drain. Or Kill Slots to Mitigate a portion of the ELBow damage.

Both teams in question do not utilise, by choice, these and other options. And are stuck in a single item versus single item contest.

Which relates back on topic about why a Single Minion can't, and won't, ever hold a top spot.

It does not have the strategic options available to it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:35 PM EDT

Who knows, maybe I'm going crazy but to me, I'm just grinding out a NCB to restart it and grind out another. Because I screwed this one up in the first week and that already determined I wouldn't be able to compete with the big kids for years.

Isn't the N*B fun!

Wraithlin July 18 2010 7:42 PM EDT

I guess the real discussion then is:

Do we actually want a single minion to be able to hold the top spot?

I personally say no.

I like the idea of running with a single minion for a long time as a method of lumping alot of EXP into one guy without use of a RoE, however if you want to compete with the big dogs you need some friends when you fight them.

Multi-minion teams are more strategic and take more time developing a solid strategy with than single minion teams, and I think it's only fair that the more complex strats win out at the end of the day.

I really wouldn't enjoy this game that much if I put together a really solid 4 minion team with a complex defense and offense and some shmuck comes along with 1 dude with 50% DM, 50% HP and a ToA with an ELB just waxes me.

Really what I would ideally like to see is getting rid of the cost to hire more minions, additional minions always start off as base, and additional minions are automatically added if you don't add them sooner when you reach certain MPR levels. I think the game would benefit alot from forcing everyone to compete with the same number of minions. But I know for a fact most of the community does not share my opinion.

FailBoat[SG] July 18 2010 7:44 PM EDT

some shmuck comes along with 1 dude with 50% DM, 50% HP and a ToA with an ELB just waxes me.

I think this'll be my next NCB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:45 PM EDT

Do we actually want a single minion to be able to hold the top spot?

Yes. Otherwise, what's the point of them?

I really wouldn't enjoy this game that much if I put together a really solid 4 minion team with a complex defense and offense and some shmuck comes along with 1 dude with 50% DM, 50% HP and a ToA with an ELB just waxes me.

Not a minion count issue, but a Ranged+ELBow issue.

Wraithlin July 18 2010 7:47 PM EDT

The point would be EXP lumping and just seeing how far you can get with one guy.

Both of which are fine reasons for having a single minion for an extended period.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:49 PM EDT

Not a minion count issue, but a Ranged+ELBow issue.

To elaborate, a Melee Single minion would have to last throught your offense, and be able to deal wiht your defense, to grind out a win.

Not just target one minion per turn and kill them until you have nothing left.

If you faced a Melee equivalent, at least you've had 5/6 rounds of trying to wear him down before the kiling starts, making the battle a lot more strategic.

With ELbows, it's either Bring another ELbow (or maybe massive FB/MM) or don't bother.

As you can't keep up with the damage output fast enough.

Ranged going first...

Wraithlin July 18 2010 7:49 PM EDT

If you make it just as viable to be the top guy with 1 minion as it is to be the top guy with 4 minions, my question to you becomes: what is the point of a 4 minion team?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:50 PM EDT

Both of which are fine reasons for having a single minion for an extended period.

Which also applies to a 4 minion RoE team, which could also hold the top spot.

Either all Minion counts are viable, at all levels or play, or they are worthless.

(player assigned 'fun' objectives aside. As they are totally subjective, and not bound to any of CBs mechanics)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:51 PM EDT

If you make it just as viable to be the top guy with 1 minion as it is to be the top guy with 4 minions, my question to you becomes: what is the point of a 4 minion team?

Becuase you wanted to run it that way.

Exactl the same reason for 3 and 2 minion count teams.

Becuase the strategy differs, and each should be equally viable.

Zenai July 18 2010 7:53 PM EDT

But this is part of the game and exactly what I was meaning from the start. There are counters to everything and even those counters can be overcome. You just cannot win them all and complaining is NOT gonna change that. I have plenty of players that can beat me, some do not care for anything less than the 100% but that is a preference plain and simple.

I am not complaining because I know one thing for sure.....you cannot win them all. That is just the way CB has been built. I can strive to do so but that will not be a simple task as a Single Minion as there are few choices open to me and almost all of them point to me having to overpower everyone in my path to the top MPRwise. To be able to Dominate the entire game I would have to have at least 1 Mil MPR over everyone else. Very improbable now that a change has been put into place to prevent MPR jumps via 1600 BA Boosts.

Final thought I am happy to be where I am at and if I drop a slot then so be it, if I go up a slot so be it as well. No matter what happens I will have to deal with it or just stop playing the game. Improvise, Adapt and Overcome that is the only motto that should be around here in my opinion. It has taken me a while to get to this conclusion but Complaining, Whining and Moaning should never be a part of CB in any way it degrades the game on too many levels.

Wraithlin July 18 2010 7:57 PM EDT

You know what would solve this whole issue:

1) remove ranged rounds completely.

2) whoever the opponent currently has as thier melee target has to use a melee weapon or spell.

3) everyone on your team not currently being attacked by melee gets to keep firing ranged weapons.

4) if you don't have a melee weapon and you're the melee target you take the firing in melee penalties but not before.

5) if neither team has a melee weapon, or the ranged weapon NW's are all higher than their melee weapon NW's, neither team ever goes into melee.

6) SG forces that minion into melee as well (potentially 2 minions forced to fight melee), and RoBF forces the first melee guy into melee.

Basically you would make the game more realistic, more strategic, and more balanced imo.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2010 7:58 PM EDT

I've already posted ideas for something like that. ;)

AdminTitan July 18 2010 8:25 PM EDT

"I am not complaining because I know one thing for sure.....you cannot win them all."

Give Nem a year with the right tweaks to his strategy.

Little Anthony July 18 2010 8:34 PM EDT

-25 millions ST in 1 shot [Admin Edit: Slayer333]. PWNZ!

Zenai July 19 2010 1:34 AM EDT

"I am not complaining because I know one thing for sure.....you cannot win them all."

Give Nem a year with the right tweaks to his strategy.


Titan: Truth to be Told anything can happen in a year so bringing something like that up is a completely moot subject. Not to take anything away from "Nat"(<===Proper nickname btw).

To me saying what you said is akin to the comeback of "Oh yeah well your shoes are untied!" i.e. it makes no relevant sense whatsoever.



Just off the top of my head:

1. CB could Close it's Doors and no one would truly ever know one way or the other.

2. CB could become a Web phenomenon attracting the greatest players in the world and we all get pwned.

3. A NUB could come out of nowhere and destroy the Ranks and shove everyones strats down their throats.

4. Jayuu could come back with a vengeance and NCB everyone to death.

5. Jon/NS could Start CB 3 and shut down CB 2 before the end of the year.

6. Nat could say "Eh I don't wanna run this char anymore.", and run an NCB with a completely unrelated strat.

7. Nat could decide to concentrate more on her personal life and lose interest in her char and give it to 3/4ths who has a different idea.

8. Someone could come up with a massive hard counter for what Nat "could" have in the works for her strat.

9. The Element for making Nat's Strat unbeatable could be removed before it could be implemented because of that simple fact.

10. Jon/NS could introduce a new item that makes Nat's strat obsolete or someone else's powerful enough to counter it.


Like I said anything could happen in a year, so how about we cross that bridge when we get there eh?

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 19 2010 8:30 AM EDT

Wow. This thread sure went down hill...

Anyhow to answer the initial question. Yes I believe it's possible for a single minion team to be number 1. With the right strategy and of course the right CBD investments.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0034Pi">Taking the top with a single minion</a>