Observation of the exbow (in General)


QBRanger June 15 2011 4:04 PM EDT

I know, yet another thread about it.

But this time hear me out.

It used to be the classic thinking of why the exbow was needed was to stop the uber NW TOA archers and SoD users from dominating.

However, having come back for a couple days, I find that the old classic thinking is now passe.

There are now many ways for a ToA tank or uber NW TOA tank to be beat. They include:

RBF, high AC wall with PL battery, like http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=132534&opponent_name=damage+control

ToE tank like http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=119714&opponent_name=Doctor+Who

RoS character like http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=241&opponent_name=Epitaph, who has a very low NW

JKF character who can rarely be hit like http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=131799&opponent_name=Incompetent+Misfits

To name a few.

The reason I still persist on the exbow and only the exbow is that with 1 or 2 hits the entire ToA and all its NW is made useless. Nothing else in the game does anything similiar.

One can possibly state EC, however you would need to put almost all your xp into EC to take out a ToA tank. I used to do it in the way past but eventually the ToA's got too big to nuke the entire strength.

AMF needs to me 10x or more to do it and there is now the NSC which neutralize AMF to a degree.

So again, what are the good reasons for the exbow.

Note, the axbow is different since you can still do damage if you get hit and kudos to novice for using one effectively.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 15 2011 4:19 PM EDT

if zenai still had his team with its high nw, he would likely still be beating me. i cannot speak for the others, but just because there isn't one of those teams beating me at the moment does not mean that they cannot it simply means that no one is trying that right now or has invested enough nw in their strategy to still be doing it.

even with my ac wall those uber hits in ranged were too much to live through. to counter fgod i would have had to change my team enough that i would have lost other opponents or opened my team up to other defensive losses. personally, i am not ready yet to say we no longer have need of the item even though i do understand the frustration associated with it.

Sickone June 15 2011 4:33 PM EDT

It serves a purpose.
The only thing I am "meh" about is the fine-tuning of the effect.

They did ramp it down a tad bit a while ago, but not nearly enough if you ask me.
Or better said, not the right way.
Or even better said, not quite the right way also considering how chance to hit works.

A proper rework would include the inability to one-hit drain all ST from a regular target regardless of items involved, but it would also make it so that you can't just completely evade its effects either.
I'm not sure it's even possible to do properly though.

Tentatively, I would top-cap its effect to about 40% of current ST value, but also significantly ramp up its chance to hit, to say 100%.
Or, do some of the above, then add a skill that can negate enemy evasion to a degree, but only when using crossbows.
Oh well...

QBRanger June 15 2011 4:37 PM EDT

Understood.

But to bring up an old discussion:

Why do we have such an item that destroys most ToA tanks to counter one character at the extreme of NW?

A ToA character cannot use 2 of the best defenses vs the exbow, high AC or a ToE. And if they get hit 1 or 2 times, almost always they lose most if not all their strength, making missile and melee rounds useless. Again, 1 or 2 hits neutralizes an entire tattoo, AND all the NW on the tattoo user. While the exbow user gives up damage in missile, they still have the entire melee phase of the game to do damage. The missile use does not.

However, vs Z's character, if Z had it, I think it would be a crapshoot. His bow had more x but less + on it. Add a 100k evasion to your tank and he would hit a bit less. With a decay on your enchanter, if you make it to melee, you would win.

Perhaps making the strength loss regenerate during melee would balance things out a bit more than total loss of the tattoo AND NW for the entire battle.

Or give the ToA the ability to regenerate strength during melee rounds. If that is too powerful then offsetting this ability with 1/2 the bonus to PTH as it has now.

Non ToA tanks have other, more effective ways to stop the exbow such as the ability to use body armor and cloak (AC) or use the ToE.

Sickone June 15 2011 4:40 PM EDT

ToA additional effect : caps max ST drain to 30% of current (not 30% of base).
:)

QBRanger June 15 2011 4:46 PM EDT

Still 30% of 12M+ strength is doing a lot of damage, I will certainly conceed that. I doubt NS or exbow users would like that very much.

However with the missile salvage yard the exbows are not useless with tweaks.

I would like to see:

ToA: Quartery effect: Regeneration of 20% strength from 0 at beginning of round ONLY if melee weapon is equipped. Can be at the end of the last missile round if that makes programming easier like the TSA hp regeneration.

Tertiary effect: Increases Encumbrance by increasing strength of minion using tattoo. Allowing for higher NW weapons/items to be utilized.

Secondary effect: PTH bonus is 1/5 (changed from 1/3) of Tattoo's net worth added to the PTH of your weapon.

Primary effect: Increases the wearer's base ST and DX by 50% and 33% of the tattoo's effective level, respectively.

PS: I would like to keep this thread free of discourse. PM me if I get out of line.

QBRanger June 15 2011 4:50 PM EDT

If we do go with regeneration, of course it would be up the max strength AFTER EC was cast. There would be no way strength would be able to be regenerated past the max post spell casting effect.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

I am unsure at this time if the regeration should work on dexterity but am leaning yes, given a melee weapon has to be equipped. Other thoughs on the axbow, esp from novice would be very much appreciated as he is the prime user of that item.

Sickone June 15 2011 4:53 PM EDT

I was thinking the cap would be per hit, not overall.
Just in case we misunderstood eachother.

Duke June 15 2011 4:54 PM EDT

Anytime i fight someone with a Exbow/axbow if he can score more that 2 hit i got 1 stats drain in the negative.


I like the idea of STR regen, 25% regen would make the tank back by round 9. Its does give the exbow/axbow useur a edge over physical dommage dealer without making them obsolete.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 6:45 PM EDT

Rather than increasing an already powerful item I think it would be better to just give more options. Like an Axe of Fury. You add 5 times the x value in str per round of melee, as an example.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 7:52 PM EDT

It's only powerful if you don't have the proper defenses in place..

Also the argument of we need it to balance super large ToA tanks is a silly one.. I can think of over five better alternatives to the exbow in that regard...

QBRanger June 15 2011 8:13 PM EDT

Also the argument of we need it to balance super large ToA tanks is a silly one.. I can think of over five better alternatives to the exbow in that regard...

Just because you disagree with a hypothesis does not mean you can just call it silly and move on. This has been an ongoing discussion for years.

The fact that there are 5 better alternatives shows just how bad/unbalanced the exbow really is. The main argument about it existing was the ToA uber NW tank. If there are 5 better alternatives, why even have the exbow at all.

Does not the fact that 1 or 2 hits from it nuke the ToA and its NW completely worry you? Nothing in the game simulates that feature.

The mageseeker only does damage which can be mitigated numerous times via PL. AMF has the NSC for a nice counter.

So instead of calling my post silly, what do you think of my idea of having the ToA give regenerative powers during melee?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 8:23 PM EDT

I think that would make the ToA OP to be honest.

QBRanger June 15 2011 8:32 PM EDT

Even at the expense of some PTH?

Why?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 8:34 PM EDT

Because you are getting to the point where you are trying to roll it all into 1 neat little piece. There are plenty of other slots for new items. Helm, boots, shield, gloves, weapon.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 8:36 PM EDT

And also, isn't the free pth the main point of the ToA to begin with?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 8:42 PM EDT

If there are 5 better alternatives, why even have the exbow at all.

I personally use the Ex-bow because I don't have any real defenses against GA right now. With the ex-bow I'm not taking a whole lot of GA damage in ranged rounds.


Does not the fact that 1 or 2 hits from it nuke the ToA and its NW completely worry you? Nothing in the game simulates that feature.

I personally think it brings a decent amount of strategy to the game. When you're making that super large ToA tank, you need to think about how you're going to deal with ex-bow teams. It wouldn't be so hard to make a ToA team that is completely invincible to exbow teams.


The mageseeker only does damage which can be mitigated numerous times via PL. AMF has the NSC for a nice counter.

The mageseeker also does quite a bit more damage versus well just about everyone. Also are you forgetting the specialized crossbows do nothing against mages and enchanters?

So instead of calling my post silly, what do you think of my idea of having the ToA give regenerative powers during melee?

I actually love this idea .. Even though I use the exbow the only "tank" teams that can beat me are other exbow users, personally this would help me allot.

QBRanger June 15 2011 8:45 PM EDT

Because you are getting to the point where you are trying to roll it all into 1 neat little piece. There are plenty of other slots for new items. Helm, boots, shield, gloves, weapon.

I would be perfectly happen for an item that does strength regeneration. Even based upon its +.

And also, isn't the free pth the main point of the ToA to begin with?

The ToA initially just gave a lot of str and dex and was perfectly fine. It also gave a touch of evasion in its first form.

I personally use the ToA for the strength and dexterity. The PTH is a nice bonus but for me it is not the main point. For others perhaps it be, but others would need to chime in. Sacrificing some PTH for strength regeneration is a good trade IMO.

QBRanger June 15 2011 8:52 PM EDT

I personally use the Ex-bow because I don't have any real defenses against GA right now. With the ex-bow I'm not taking a whole lot of GA damage in ranged rounds.

Hmmm, If you have problems with GA, what about magic damage? does that not give you the same problems? There are much better ways to deal with GA than to allow a weapon that with a couple hits can make a ToA tank and its NW useless.

It wouldn't be so hard to make a ToA team that is completely invincible to exbow teams.

Please tell me how, I have yet to solve that problem. PL works for 1 hit max as the strength of the PL minion goes to below 0 the first hit and the ToA tank below 0 on the 2nd. One cannot have a high AC due to the tattoos armor restriction. A SoC does not really help (I have tried trust me). What else can one use?

he mageseeker also does quite a bit more damage versus well just about everyone. Also are you forgetting the specialized crossbows do nothing against mages and enchanters?

These exbows still do some damage, but not a lot. However that still does not counter the fact with 2 hits the ToA tank and all its NW is useless. I would love a missile weapon that make a mage's DD to 0 in 2 hits. But damage can be mitigated, strength drain can only be mitigated via PL or heavy AC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 15 2011 8:59 PM EDT

Welcome back!

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 9:02 PM EDT

Hmmm, If you have problems with GA, what about magic damage? does that not give you the same problems? There are much better ways to deal with GA than to allow a weapon that with a couple hits can make a ToA tank and its NW useless.

Heh.. Seems to be one of my big weaknesses. Especially large Decays backed up by SG or CoC's.

It wouldn't be so hard to make a ToA team that is completely invincible to exbow teams.

when I said this I had Mikels DB"s in mind, High HP, fancy use of PL and decent AC, not super large AC but a decent amount.

Zenai June 15 2011 9:22 PM EDT

Or, do some of the above, then add a skill that can negate enemy evasion to a degree, but only when using crossbows.

The idea of a Skill necessary for a Crossbow use is not new. Crossbowmanship was the general idea and worked like Archery but for the specialty Crossbows. I would take a different approach as such I offer this observation and I will then digress.

The ELB and Archery have been argued into the ground to no truly good point. The same can be said of the Specialty Crossbows more in depth and in specific the ExBow. Would this not at least make an eyebrow raise and ask "Are these items even really needed the way they are right now mechanically?" Another to be asked is "If one item requires a Skill shouldn't the other as well?" And finally "Why not make them work similarly under the same skill aka Archery?"

Now please do not get me wrong I am not trying to get anything offtrack here and if this seems to be the case I apologize. However I felt the need to ask these questions of myself and wondered if this may help others to come to a better conclusion than we have in the past years threads concerning these subjects.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 15 2011 9:27 PM EDT

Personally I would like to see Archery be removed, with Bows being put in line with other ranged weapons in terms of CTH and then seeing 2 new skills. Sniper for ranged weapons and weapon mastery for melee. Each one would increase CTH by up to maybe 60 at max when trained to X% of str.

horseguy001 June 15 2011 10:25 PM EDT

Unfortunately as NW invested in Exbows/armor gets bigger and bigger I think the tank will slowly be phased out for decay and DD.

When eventually every team in the game has a high AC wall/massive Exbow, since that is the direction I think we are inevitably headed, decay/DD will be the only way to damage teams. Then what?

Duke June 15 2011 11:00 PM EDT

I so agree with hourseguy, dude you really need to change your useur name.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 15 2011 11:27 PM EDT

Ichi shot a maug warrior with The Man with the Ski Mask [2391072]

I mean what else is their to say? Even with the Axbow giving you no dex you still double hit, it's only a matter of time before you up damage.

kevlar June 15 2011 11:53 PM EDT

lol, exbow thread... really? :)

Ranger = nose of adamantium

Maybe the lunar eclipse will make Jon log in?

QBRanger June 16 2011 12:59 AM EDT

Ichi shot a maug warrior with The Man with the Ski Mask [2391072]

And yet you still beat me novice, even with all the "high" damage I do. There are now CoC's that do more, SG's that do a lot more. All without worrying about the exbow taking out all their damage and NW and tattoo ability with 2 shots.

Unfortunately as NW invested in Exbows/armor gets bigger and bigger I think the tank will slowly be phased out for decay and DD.

This is one of the reasons I posted this thread. It has been about a year since I last played and now I see this coming true. When I first came back, I could beat all but 1 or 2 character. Now after a week, there are 6 or 7 that can beat me regularily. Please note I am not bitching about being beaten, since this shows the ToA tank is losing ground in the current CB to a lot of different strats.

So why again do we need another that completely nullifies a minion, its tattoo, and all its NW in 2 hits most of the time vs the higher level exbows.

when I said this I had Mikels DB"s in mind, High HP, fancy use of PL and decent AC, not super large AC but a decent amount.

Well I would do exactly that if I could. I have about the bestest AC possible for a ToA tank using the best equipment. If I switched the AoM for a AoAC, why bother being an archer. The point is to try to kill quick. High DBs? I have +205, should I need +305 or better? C'mon now! Without body armor and a cloak, AC is not high enough to dent the damage significantly. High HP? Then you need a 1 or 2 minion character and even Z's character fails vs the exbow.

Fancy use of PL? Please show me a way to "fancy" use PL. I have tried but there is no fancy way to use PL, I have tried numerous variations including 2 PL minons but that does not work enough to say it is a defense.

I would really ask for something to regenerate strength, and possibly dex if that is needed to give some type of possible chance vs the exbow.

If people still believe that one sacrifices missile to use the exbow, that is a thought, but one can say the same about SG/CoC mages and melee centric tanks like novice. That IMO does not fly as a rebuttal.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 1:22 AM EDT

I think the "fancy" use they were speaking of was how I had it setup on Dagobah with almost dual tanks. Because the PL minion had significant STR and HP, he was able to absorb the drain well enough to get me through ranged.

I'm about to have to up my dbs another hundred million CB just to deal with you and the big jig, why shouldn't you have to do the same to keep me from being able to actively fight you?

QBRanger June 16 2011 7:13 AM EDT

I doubt you need to increase your DBs to beat me as you already do.

The big jig on the other hand.....

Just look at my fightlist to see all those beating me, 1 perhaps uses the exbow and he can beat me without it.

So again, what purpose does it give to the game, given there are now plenty of ways to beat a ToA tank?

QBRanger June 16 2011 7:42 AM EDT

I think this sums up my disbelief at the exbow.

Tattoos are very special items. A character can only use 1. Some do things that xp cannot. Such as the RBF, RoS, ToE and ToA (the pth). Others give a character an extra minion with a lot of DD and some hp.

I believe it should be damm hard to take out a tattoo's ability due to how special they are in the game.

But here we have an item that in 1 or 2 hits completely and totally neutralizes an entire tattoo and all the NW on the tattoo wearer, no matter how high.

Yes, people have tried special PL setups, however dual tanks is extremely expensive, especially at 6M MPR give the damage on has to do to win. Using 2 PL enchanters with a bit of str does not work for numerous reasons.

While the ToA archer is quite a force, it needs a lot of NW to survive. Both in the weapon and in DB they are forced to wear due to the exbow. They, of course, cannot use evasion due to archery requirement. A SoD ToA tank can use evasion but even they get hit from the exbow and in 2 shots max likely lose all their strength.

And while the ToA archer used to dominate, now in the higher MPR zones, that is certainly not the case. There is a tattoo that directly effects the ToA-the ToE. Other ways including RBF/wall characters, axbow using characters, and RoS characters do quite well vs the ToA tank.

So what is the rationale for having a weapon that completely and totally negates a tattoo and all the NW on the minion using it?

There is no other item in the entire game that simulates that effect.

Which is why I proposed a regeneration ability on the ToA, to give the ToA user a chance to do some damage provided they use a melee weapon and make it to melee.

Now I will stop my rant. However, the same problems that made me leave CB are now worse give a year's absence.

Quyen June 16 2011 8:53 AM EDT

hm... i dont want to be dragged into the discussion but what does CTH mean?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 16 2011 9:25 AM EDT

cth = chance to hit

So again, what purpose does it give to the game, given there are now plenty of ways to beat a ToA tank?

i don't think it was meant as a counter to the toa tank but rather that is a side effect of it being a counter to massive nw pumped into a weapon.

QBRanger June 16 2011 9:44 AM EDT

i don't think it was meant as a counter to the toa tank but rather that is a side effect of it being a counter to massive nw pumped into a weapon.

Possibly, however as I recall, the major discussions were the exbow as a counter primarily to the ToA tank.

Especially with the revised exbow that changed the leech, AC factors far more than it did in the past.

Now a generic, non-ToA tank almost always has enough AC to mitiage the strength leech to multiple and not 2 hits before drained into the negative.

But even as a counter to a generic tanks NW, it is right or fair that a weapon can as a side effect (intended or unintended consequence) completely make a tattoo and all that minions NW useless for the entire battle?

No other item in the game is that extreme in its ability.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 16 2011 9:48 AM EDT

I used the exbow for a while. What I found was that it was good for stopping people farming you. However it was almost useless in terms of actually being able to farm anyone. The amount of investment needed to make it useful enough to farm targets was far better spent in other areas, like AC which did that job plus more.

AdminShade June 16 2011 11:56 AM EDT

completely off topic but I love seeing blue ;)

horseguy001 June 16 2011 12:41 PM EDT

I don't see why introducing another effect to counter a broken item would help. What about teams that want to tank and don't use a ToA? I say fix the broken item, while keeping it unique.

For example, the drain formula remains the same, but instead of the Tank losing all their str, they lose a % of whatever their str is for the round and the rest is leeched to the exbow wielder. You still get drain, but it serves a different effect.

Hell, I just want something to shake up the meta a bit I guess :D

QBRanger June 16 2011 12:49 PM EDT

Ichi shot a maug warrior with The Man with the Ski Mask [653]

Round 3 of combat with novice.

11.4M ToA and 572M NW of items useless after just 2 rounds of combat with no hope of doing any damage the rest of the entire combat.

Is that really balanced?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 1:12 PM EDT

Without the exbow my melee focused tank would be useless against you despite specifically targeting you... why would that be fair?

QBRanger June 16 2011 1:15 PM EDT

Try fighting me without your exbow. I think you would win. However, there are other weapons you can use in ranged, that would work very well. And given your advantage in strength, dex and DBs, I suspect any of the other missile weapons would work very well for you vs me in ranged.

Do you think 2 hits from a weapon should make a 11.4M or even higher TOA and over 500M of NW useless the entire battle?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 1:19 PM EDT

No I think STR should regen via an item in melee (likely a helm)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 1:21 PM EDT

Without ranged I do in fact still win... barely.

any increase in damage would quickly change that

QBRanger June 16 2011 1:21 PM EDT

If an item is to have regeneration, then it should certainly not be a helm. That would get rid of the HoC and therefore ensure exbow tanks have a free round to hit. It most certainly should not be boots.

I think an amulet would be best if it is to be an item.

I think having it on the ToA would be best due to the other ways non ToA tanks can mitigate the exbow damage. But that is my personal opinion.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 1:22 PM EDT

The point is to give folks another choice besides the HoC which is currently a must have item.

QBRanger June 16 2011 1:26 PM EDT

any increase in damage would quickly change that

However, in order for me to get a significant increase in damage I would either have to:
1) upgrade my ToA significantly to get more strength and possibly a few more PTH
2) upgrade my bow significantly to get from x25k to over x35k to see a bump in damage, which is very expensive, almost 100M NW.

I win but barely (paraphrasing)

Proving the exbow is not essential to a melee tank winning.

And you would win easier if you used a SoD or mageseeker. Either on your tank would be about 1M damage a hit, and I suspect you would hit 2x a round. In fact, there is a chance just using either would take my tank out in ranged alone.

So why again does it need to exist?

QBRanger June 16 2011 1:30 PM EDT

The point is to give folks another choice besides the HoC which is currently a must have item.

If it were a helm, it would be a useless item. No archer (who has to basically do most damage in ranged) would give up 1/6th damage for the regeneration ability. Since they typically have worse weapons in melee or use their bow in melee with its dex penalty and every other round shooting.

If it is a helm, it would likely be as useful as the Mithril Cuirass armor.

Basically if it is an item, it has to be either a shield or amulet for it to have a place in the game.

Boots, gloves and helm for missile users are fairly set in stone.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 1:42 PM EDT

You mean useful to you... the reality is that you shouldn't beat a melee focused tank with a specialty bow without serious investment in defense.
Any counter to the strength drain shouldn't really apply directly to standard archers.

For a melee focused tank it would pretty much solve the issue.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 16 2011 1:58 PM EDT

Not to be pedantic, or pessimistic (whichever fits better). But since nothing has changed in CB since the last time we had a round of these threads (at least a year ago? Maybe more?), why would any of the points of discussion have changed?

Ah, nostalgia. ;)

QBRanger June 16 2011 2:21 PM EDT

Not to be pedantic, or pessimistic (whichever fits better). But since nothing has changed in CB since the last time we had a round of these threads (at least a year ago? Maybe more?), why would any of the points of discussion have changed?

Actually things have changed. When I left CB, the ToA archer would do very well against all characters except the exbow user.

Now there are many characters that beat the ToA tank. Making the exbow more passe than ever.

And as horseguy stated, as MPR's advance, the ToA tank will fall more and more behind due to the expense of NW needed vs the free damage from all the high level DD spells.

You mean useful to you... the reality is that you shouldn't beat a melee focused tank with a specialty bow without serious investment in defense.

The serious investment in defense meaning having a NW DB war? O joy!!!

I am starting to see the ToA tank being not viable at the higher MPR levels. As the fact there are myself and Z's character as the only ones near the top.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 16 2011 2:21 PM EDT

When I first came back, I could beat all but 1 or 2 character. Now after a week, there are 6 or 7 that can beat me regularily. Please note I am not bitching about being beaten, since this shows the ToA tank is losing ground in the current CB to a lot of different strats.

Don't forget hatch didn't burn a whole lot of BA with your character either.

I do agree though, the longer CB goes the worse off tanks in general will be, compared to things with a more linear growth like DD spells and such.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 16 2011 2:22 PM EDT

We are slowly turning into more of a mage-blender. Or at least that's how I've been perceiving things.

QBRanger June 16 2011 2:25 PM EDT

That and Guardian Angel Blender!!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 16 2011 2:28 PM EDT

That tanks slowly grow harder to use as the game goes was pretty obvious from the moment I first started playing. Exbow, or no exbow.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 16 2011 2:30 PM EDT

That tanks slowly grow harder to use as the game goes was pretty obvious from the moment I first started playing. Exbow, or no exbow.

Yeah, it's just now starting to take effect though.

Should be interesting to see what CB is like in a year or two from now.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 16 2011 2:45 PM EDT

[quote]Now there are many characters that beat the ToA tank. Making the exbow more passe than ever.[/quote]

Because no one's running a high (bought with USD) NW Single ELBow archer any more?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 16 2011 2:46 PM EDT

lol nuts! forgot the quoting here. ;)

Also, ToA Archer =/= ToA Tank.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 2:55 PM EDT

in a year I'll have around 35m HP and my enc should be well over 1.5B CB

The ToA is quite viable

horseguy001 June 16 2011 4:24 PM EDT

For as long as I can remember, the meta for CB seems to be heavily focused on surviving ranged rounds. Back when NCB runs and top mprs were in the 2-3 mil range, this was almost an impossible feat due to the extreme damage that ToA archers put out. The exbow was created because at that level it really was impossible to survive that kind of damage.

Now that we have teams where multiple minions are 1 million mpr or more we can achieve the current meta without the use of an exbow. Essentially it feels like an outdated item when you think about it.

My only question is when another year passes and soon Heavy walls are negating 500 million NW and a tattoo will they become the next Exbow? I hate to say it but I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of CB, at least one that runs forever.

What happens when everyone is 10 mil mpr and has a 500 AC minions? The only viable source of damage will be DD, since even GA won't return any kind of damage if that wall is also your main damage dealer. What can tanks hope to do?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 4:43 PM EDT

VB works really nicely against the big walls...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 16 2011 4:46 PM EDT

500 ac will only block 83.5% of the damage, it now takes 600 ac to block all damage and due to some randomness factor even that won't really block it all.

the damage will go up as well. will it ever be a problem, possibly. will it happen that quickly, i highly doubt it.

QBRanger June 16 2011 5:08 PM EDT

VB works really nicely against the big walls...

Certainly. But as to this conversation about missile users and the exbow, that does not apply.

I think 500AC is very costly and likely near the max of pure armor minus any Stone Skin spell.

QBRanger June 16 2011 5:11 PM EDT

The only viable source of damage will be DD, since even GA won't return any kind of damage if that wall is also your main damage dealer. What can tanks hope to do?

Not to be a spoil sport, but I doubt at 10M MPR, walls will be much of a damage dealer.

Maybe a heavier AC mage with TSA equipped, but almost certainly not a wall.

But still 83% damage reduction is quite a load, especially if backed up with a TSA/PL HP battery.

Sort of like Dude's character now, who is extremely difficult to beat.

QBRanger June 16 2011 5:13 PM EDT

VB works really nicely against the big walls...

Sorry for the triple post.

The MoD may be better than the VB due to PL/TSA hp battery that most wall characters have.

Even then, you are not chopping through these minions in short order. Either weapon will take time.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 16 2011 5:33 PM EDT

you're right, it takes me two whole rounds...

QBRanger June 16 2011 5:54 PM EDT

two headed stone sword [67x31417] (+200) worth $359,817,076 owned by AdminQBnovice (Construct)

Biggest in the game by far. Over 100M bigger than the next highest melee weapon.

Sorry to be the voice of reason, but not every tank has such a weapon. Even my ELB is less NW.

For a weapon 100-150M NW it will take 4-5 rounds at least. Which is a long time in CB terms given the rates of damage at 6-7M MPR.

My 125M NW MoD does 400k a hit x 4 hits a round =1.6M total a round. Will take long time to get through high AC walls.

I will concede that I could drop another 200M into my melee weapon and all will be right in CB. But I doubt that will happen.

Zenai June 16 2011 6:52 PM EDT

Because no one's running a high (bought with USD) NW Single ELBow archer any more?

Don't write me off just yet I may prove to have an ace up my sleeve >:-D

Duke June 17 2011 4:14 AM EDT

You guys can talk all you want but there something that never lie and that score to PR.


I took the first column on the first page most team can be tag really quickly to 1 main categorie.


Category A TOA tank

The Immortals 9,854,694/13,367,017
Horror 9,037,764/8,804,322
FuerGrissa ost Drauka 8,883,489/9,875,753
Occam's Razor 8,421,932/6,884,521

Only 1 have a nice ratio and as for tranger char i believe he maintain a postive ratio due to is GA more that anything.


Category B ROS team

Epitaph 9,772,940/9,937,387
The Lega 8,974,139/9,607,379
Team Rocket 8,973,395/9,578,604
Black Mesa 8,615,612/7,417,706
Nocturnal Spaghetti 8,569,953/8,547,379
The Hellfire Club 8,400,281/7,154,116

ROS base team all have similar +10 -10% ratio, i was thinking they would have score better still they are 1 of the favorite category.


Category c ROBF team


King of Pain 9,699,517/10,598,515
Poseidon 9,456,775/8,405,866
damage control 9,250,866/8,165,383
The Iconics 3e 9,110,478/9,377,720
Failure 8,908,657/9,281,186
Azthral 8,732,848/8,919,504

This is 1 of the best categorie out there 2 of them maintain positive ratio in the top 5 something very usual for CB. The only factor for them seem to be how much AC do you have, the higher better will be there ratio.

Hybrid team or unsual strat

Incompetent Misfits 9,669,454/10,916,509
Construct 9,220,350/12,135,770
Law 8,927,934/7,218,727
Dixie Cousins 8,892,200/9,567,681
Doctor Who 8,593,615/8,068,801

Those were too hard to put into a category.

Direct dommage

| Xenogard | 9,102,486/8,114,143
Karn-Silver Golem 8,986,399/7,229,652
Dagobah 8,523,468/8,026,442

All members have a positive ratio and some of the best ratio in the top 20. Stangely for a category with such high success its not very popular, there twice as much ROBF and ROS useur that DD.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 17 2011 1:44 PM EDT

I've been back to using a ToA for a few days now...

Duke June 17 2011 1:47 PM EDT

Novice you just officialy put the 2 worse score to PR in the same bracket.

There something that does not show there is in the top 20 to top 50 there a lots of HAL team and they are doing very well without the use to high NW.

QBRanger June 17 2011 1:52 PM EDT

Novice you just officialy put the 2 worse score to PR in the same bracket.

Simple explaination for that fact.

Tanks need NW, and as you get higher in MPR you need more and more NW. Which equals a lot more PR. But you can only fight what other characters are out there, most of which are not NW intensive characters.

So while your PR is high due to massive NW, theirs is relatively lower.

It is a feature of playing a tank, which gives more variations than a pure mage character.

As we go further into the game, I suspect more people will drop tanks and focus on the free damage capabilities of the RBF and DD. Esp the RBF due to its GA resistance.

I personally am finding a tank to be too expensive even for me at this stage of the game.

BTW, my GA does not help me vs any character and I likely will be dropping it very soon.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 17 2011 1:58 PM EDT

I've run mages of all levels on CB and I can't think of a single moment that compares to the fun and flexibility of tanking.

It might be true that a single minion mage team with my NW and MPR could feasibly beat everyone for a time, but long term I'll win out because I can adjust both items and XP more easily.

Duke June 17 2011 2:01 PM EDT

Weapon use to be free of PR now any PTH add to PR even worse is that is base on NW and not a fix power weight.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 17 2011 2:55 PM EDT

personally I like having multiple forms of damage, I like being able to be flexible with my team as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2011 8:13 PM EDT

Weapon use to be free of PR now any PTH add to PR even worse is that is base on NW and not a fix power weight.

And PR free Weapon X is pure abusive.

QBRanger June 17 2011 9:36 PM EDT

And PR free Weapon X is pure abusive.

Yes, I completely agree the The Immortals should have close to a 20,000,000 PR.

Completely, 100%, without a doubt, etc...

NOT!!!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 17 2011 9:56 PM EDT

One thing I've wanted for a while is for Weapons to give PR for the + like armor does and have it based on the minion, not the whole team.

Duke June 17 2011 10:01 PM EDT

Ill go with nat on this, its the lesser of 2 evil, while i show that tank are in a bad position in term of score to pr exception to HAL wich pth scale very well.

QBRanger June 19 2011 9:09 PM EDT

I have noticed, with my new character, people are using the ToE to a nice effect. That is turning my winning into their winning.

So why again do we have the exbow?

When the ToE works very well and actually uses the tattoo slot. Instead of the exbow which, IMO, is a cheap (not $$$, just strategy wise) way to win.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 19 2011 11:27 PM EDT

usd is the reason. weapons are the only item in the game that have a linear upgrade path which can be highly manipulated by usd investment. if we took away usd transfers (the cb economy) and everyone was left with only investing what a team could make then the exbow wouldn't be necessary.

another solution would be to put weapon damage back on a non-linear growth so that you would reach a point where damage was throttled by cost.

in short, if usd wasn't so damned powerful, it wouldn't need as many or as many powerful counters.

Soxjr June 20 2011 6:52 AM EDT

The only problem Dude with that reasoning is for the people that don't use USD that want to play this game you end up on the short end of the stick because you can't compete with the Exbow at all because your weapons are not even close to the size of the usd ones. It is that whole two separate games here. The usd one and the non usd one. They don't seem to mix well.

horseguy001 June 20 2011 7:00 AM EDT

With the way AC scales and the free damage aspect of spells I don't think USD is all that rediculous anymore. In ways I think USD tanks are at a big disadvantage since as mpr and AC increases they get easier and easier to shut down. They have to spend on weapons and armor, I just have to worry about armor.


QBRanger June 20 2011 9:43 AM EDT

My point, the main one I keep coming to, is that there are now many other ways to beat a USD or non-USD tank.

The ToE is a great way to do so. As well as a host of other ways to defeat a tank.

The RoS is an awesome tattoo, as well as the RBF backed by hp and AC.

It seems to me that even if the exbow was needed in the past, it certainly is not essential now as now there are plenty of other ways to beat a tank. Even those backed by USD.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 10:03 AM EDT

if it is truly non-essential then people will not be using it as much. so what is it that you are trying to accomplish here ranger?

QBRanger June 20 2011 10:08 AM EDT

if it is truly non-essential then people will not be using it as much. so what is it that you are trying to accomplish here ranger?

Just because something is non-essential does not mean that it will not be used/abused.

Slapping an exbow on a character lets them not be forced to actually use a strategy vs a tank, leaving them free to use other tattoos that work less well vs tanks.

Using an exbow lets someone not be forced into using the ToE or RoS or RBF.

However, if, as a tank, you go against a ToE or RoS character, you still have a chance doing some damage. Vs the exbow, after 1 or 2 hits, your tank/ToA/NW is useless.

QBRanger June 20 2011 10:16 AM EDT

Let's take an example.

Xenogard's character. If he uses either an exbow or a ToE he beats me.

So we have:

1) Slap on an exbow and get to use any tattoo. Since I lose my tank and its NW, battle over.

or

2) Actually have to use the tattoo slot, the ToE to win.

So we have an item that replicates the effect of a tattoo, but it does it much much better.

What other item replicates a tattoo and does it better?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 10:33 AM EDT

it is very effective just as usd infusion is very effective with physical damage weapons. i keep coming back to that point just the way you keep coming back to yours.

i disagree with you and will continue to do so as long as weapons have a linear upgrade on damage or as long as usd is transferable.

Zenai June 20 2011 12:29 PM EDT

i disagree with you and will continue to do so as long as weapons have a linear upgrade on d or as long as usd is transferable.

USD will always, no matter what you do, somehow be able to be a part of the equation.

If Weapons go to a linear upgrade system as you suggest would this put Encumbrance back to Weapon's Allowance? Just wanting to know because wouldn't this kind of scrap the whole premise for Encumbrance to begin with.

Duke June 20 2011 12:51 PM EDT

i disagree with you and will continue to do so as long as weapons have a linear upgrade on damage or as long as usd is transferable.

Doubling the amount of X does not double dommage.

Demigod June 20 2011 12:54 PM EDT

Just to throw in my two cents, I'm not a fan of the exbow in it's current form. I'm fine with it existing in the game, but the one-hit-wonder mechanic just doesn't fit. It should at least be re-worked so that it hits multiple times for lesser damage ending in a similar result, but even that leaves the debate open.

As for the USD argument, most people running archers/tanks don't spend USD. If it was created solely to counter the top few weapons, then that's a pretty dubious reason to exist. As long as a decent counter exists, we should be fine. If Jon/NS want us to have a USD-affected item to counter other USD-affected items, that's fine, too. But let's make it something other than a binary magic bullet.

Duke June 20 2011 1:14 PM EDT

EXbow does not just conter USD, its kill any form of physical dommage.

QBRanger June 20 2011 1:29 PM EDT

People spend USD in different ways in the game.

True, a large part is for making big weapons.

However, massive AC walls, new minions and uber mage equipment are other ways people spend USD.

As Duke stated, the exbow just kills all physical damage. USD backed or not. And it is a plus minus sort of system. Like the old FoD.

Something that IMO has no place at all in CB.

Duke June 20 2011 2:26 PM EDT

Ill like to point out that axbow is also no better. The impact they have for the top 10 char is less but for the lower rank, a good part of your CTH is still from your dex.

Some ppl claim there a ''magic'' way to avoid ex/axbow, frankly i dont seem them in a realistic way. There 2 way not been hit by or reduce is domage to under 4%, but my guess is that at 3% its still gonna reduce your stats in the minus.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 2:37 PM EDT

we are all still playing jon's game here. we can say what our opinions are but we do need to keep in mind the vision behind the game. with that in mind, this thread as well as the following changelog are the best insight we have into jon's thoughts on the matter.

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002osW

changelog here:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002pB7

as i have stated before with these types of threads, asking for a drastic change that conflicts with said vision rarely works for anyone and just gets people riled up. if we can work within that vision and make suggestions, well those tend to be the ones that have been implemented historically during my 8+ years of constant play. there are some exceptions but they are quite rare.

i feel that asking for the exbow to be removed or changed drastically when jon started a process for dealing with it already is pointless and doomed to failure. personally i think that it is still a valid counter. now that isn't saying that i am totally happy with the way it functions either.

i could get behind the idea that jon stated in the changelog that it was a stab at fixing things with the crossbows that he meant to see how the first change worked and then go further if needed. it was shortly after that when he started his own business and we haven't had the pleasure of his changes since. he had also stated that he would revisit uc soon as well.

to sum up, i think that to have realistic expectations of having our ideas implemented, we need to keep them realistic within the framework of cb's history and changes within jon's vision so far.

if you do not read what i have said, please do read jon's posts in the links above especially where he talks about the specialty crossbows being powerful counters to other powerful strategies. i still see his sentiments as valid today.

QBRanger June 20 2011 3:09 PM EDT

i could get behind the idea that jon stated in the changelog that it was a stab at fixing things with the crossbows that he meant to see how the first change worked and then go further if needed. it was shortly after that when he started his own business and we haven't had the pleasure of his changes since. he had also stated that he would revisit uc soon as well.

A few points.

1) The game has changed in the last year. Since the last time I was here, there are many more ways to defeat the heavy USD user without going the exbow route.

2) Jon has basically abandoned the game, or left it to NS. I doubt he will be "revisiting" anything.

3) "I'm open to suggestions for making the exbow/axbow still useful without being such a hard counter. (Soft counters are more interesting.) I don't think just tweaking the numbers involved is the answer, which is why it's a tough problem. "--- Directly from the first of the links you provided.

However as the current situation goes, it still is a hard counter. A win or lose it if hits type of item.

To state it again: There is no other item in all of CB, including tattoos that makes it one hit - victory.

The examples Jon gave in the first link include decay and the RoS have no where near the ability to do what the exbow does.

Of course I could, with my NW, become an exbow user and have massive AC wall and pwn in melee, however I refuse and have always refused to win cheaply with an item I personally feel is broken.

But it is Jon and now NS's game. I only hoped to point out the need for the exbow to counter heavy NW is not a reality anymore given the multitude of other ways to defeat heavy NW tanks.

Strategies that was not available at the lower NW and MPR levels, but certainly are available now.

QBRanger June 20 2011 3:19 PM EDT

O, and yet another good "feature" of the exbow:

As combat is supposed to be simultaneous (at least that is what I read in the past), if an exbow user attacks, hits with the exbow, the strength drain occurs and the defensive round is with with huge strength drain = no real counter attack.

Just yet another great feature of this fine item.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 3:29 PM EDT

it is your opinion that it is no longer needed and you are certainly entitled to it.

in my opinion it will be necessary as long as the upgrade path on damage for weapons is linear.

as for the ideas given, jon chose not to implement them and instead gave us the linked changelog. i still posit that it will be more likely that he tweaks that fix rather than throwing it out and going in another direction entirely.

jon did just return to hand out the cb t-shirts by the way, while he cannot be active i don't think he has abandoned us just yet.

QBRanger June 20 2011 3:42 PM EDT

in my opinion it will be necessary as long as the upgrade path on damage for weapons is linear.

It seems to me, and others, that you are stuck on this linear upgrade path as such a bad thing.

I counter in that it is good for the game.

As others have pointed out, a 2x in weapon x does NOT give 2x damage. But 2x a DD level gives 2x damage aside from decay.

We are getting to points in the game where tanks are having a tough time, especially non USD based ones, keeping up with the large damages of the RBF and DD

To get 2x physical damage one needs both 2x strength and 2x weapon x.

But how does the linear upgrade path of weapon matter when discussing the exbow? It used to be one of perhaps 2 ways to defeat a tank.

And now there are more than 5 other ways beside the exbow.

If we move back to the log method of weapon upgrade, very soon CB will be mage or RBF blender as tanks can never catch up to such damages at this stage of the game.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 3:48 PM EDT

i do like the diversity of opinions on cb and think that they are necessary and your statement here got me to thinking:

Of course I could, with my NW, become an exbow user and have massive AC wall and pwn in melee, however I refuse and have always refused to win cheaply with an item I personally feel is broken.

it could be argued that you did just that with the hal. it has since been toned down as well so that would seem to back up this theory.

that would just be one opinion though, not really right or wrong. your personal rules and opinions are only valid for you though, just as mine are only valid for me.



Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 3:58 PM EDT

i have seen no proof that physical damage dealers are having trouble now, we have 4 toa users in the top. non usd physical damage users will always have problems. it is kinda like a mage choosing only to train 1/10th xp into dd, you will not be successful without using your resources.

as for the linear upgrades, that is the most powerful tool of the physical damage dealer in my mind as you get something that no one else in the game can get. look at it this way. how would you respond if mages asked for alatar's gloves to be changed to a linear upgrade cost curve? if it were implemented, would you then think that this very powerful change would require a very powerful counter?

even if armor was changed to affect magical damage in the same way it does physical damage, would that still be enough of a counter or would something else be required?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 20 2011 4:01 PM EDT

Don't worry, I'm currently working on a specialty strat that kills off robf users/tanks/mages all with equal deadly force. We'll see how it turns out.

;)

QBRanger June 20 2011 4:06 PM EDT

Whoa, slow down please.

it could be argued that you did just that with the hal. it has since been toned down as well so that would seem to back up this theory.

When I used the Hal it was powerful, yes. It was not a 1 hit=win item. Now the HF is basically crap. It is so underwhelming that the highest HF is the 20th highest tattoo. And the highest score character using one is 38th. Again showing that physical damage is being outstripped by magic and RBF damage.

One still had to use it well and do damage to your opponent. Opposed to the exbow where 1-2 hits = win.

So if I would go with the exbow, perhaps then people would see it as being too powerful just like I showed with the HF?

that would just be one opinion though, not really right or wrong. your personal rules and opinions are only valid for you though, just as mine are only valid for me.

It seems that you are stuck on the linear upgrade as a non-starter for even discussing the exbow as being too powerful. I would like to know why that is so.

Heck,

Why not bring back FoD as an equalizer for NW. That way anyone can play the 1 hit= win game. That seems even fairer than the exbow.

If we really want to neutralize USD.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 20 2011 4:08 PM EDT

Don't worry, I'm currently working on a specialty strat that kills off robf users/tanks/mages all with equal deadly force. We'll see how it turns out.

Rock paper scissors is calling shenanigans xeno! ;P

QBRanger June 20 2011 4:16 PM EDT

as for the linear upgrades, that is the most powerful tool of the physical damage dealer in my mind as you get something that no one else in the game can get. look at it this way. how would you respond if mages asked for alatar's gloves to be changed to a linear upgrade cost curve? if it were implemented, would you then think that this very powerful change would require a very powerful counter?

There is a difference between magic and physical damage. Magic damage ramps up linearly, physical non-linearly each with respect to xp.

For AGs to give a linear upgrade to a linear damage would be way too powerful.

For a weapon to give a linear upgrade to a non-linear upgrade model is certainly not.

Also, in the older days of CB2 and CB1 another x on the weapon of course did not correspond to a linear upgrade, it was logarithmic. What changed is that people could now upgrade partially instead of having to do it in one huge clump. At least as I understood the change in weapon upgrade.

For those new to CB, x upgrades used to be 1-about 25. Each costing a lot more than the last, each doing a lot more damage than the last. A log type of cost and damage ability.

For the same cost, one is doing close to the same damage. IE, if x24 on the elb cost 1B NW, the corresponding x??? would be the same for the same damage ability.

even if armor was changed to affect magical damage in the same way it does physical damage, would that still be enough of a counter or would something else be required?

I do not think that is even needed. Physical damage of course has the ability to be boosted a bit easier than magic but needs NW. And as the game progresses, it needs a lot more NW. To double damage from x1000 to x4000 (strength staying constant) is far less than do double from x4000 to x16000 which is obvious.

But now, years into CB2, it is relatively easy to get 400 AC and people are even over 450 AC, where 300 AC a couple years ago was a lot. True, the AC effect has changed since a past changelog, but we are close to catching up to the past 300 AC effect with the change now.

QBRanger June 20 2011 4:21 PM EDT

And as an example I will give you Xenogard.

Right now he is using a ToE. And beats me fairly well. Alternatively he could use any other tattoo but slap that exbow on his main tank and still beat me. By hitting me 1 time. Currently I do not use PL but that 1 more hit needed matters nothing for my fightlist.

So it is right he can use the exbow and another tattoo to neutralize my tank. Or should he have to actually use a tattoo and decent strat to beat me?

Demigod June 20 2011 4:28 PM EDT

(As an aside, I'm happy there's a debate in CB that's actually remaining civil. mind = blown)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 4:30 PM EDT

There is a difference between magic and physical damage. Magic damage ramps up linearly, physical non-linearly each with respect to xp.

physical damage still ramps up linearly, just not at a one to one ratio. a linear growth just means that the first x mod will cost the same as the one millionth. likewise the amount of damage added per 1m strength is the same throughout the curve. they are all still linear though.

the log scale back in cb1 was scaled differently but due to the increasing cost you did reach a wall. we have no wall here on cb2. there are some limitations though with encumbrance.

that can be manipulated and very much so with the toa. the toa basically allows physical damage users some free pth which is usually on a logarithmic cost curve. that massive, at the upper levels, amount that would be spent can then be thrown into the linear damage modifier.

the same thing can basically be done with the dex/str ratios to add damage at the expense of pth with the toa or even without it.

horseguy001 June 20 2011 4:37 PM EDT

It's my understanding that 1x at 50x and 1x on 16000x do not add the same amount of damage. Tanks still hit a wall, it's just you can chip away at it little by little.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 4:37 PM EDT

So it is right he can use the exbow and another tattoo to neutralize my tank. Or should he have to actually use a tattoo and decent strat to beat me?

is it indecent because you say it is? the devil's advocate would likely ask if it is right that someone spends usd to get ahead while a cb purist is left behind using only what she has made with her character? i think many have stated in the past that it is silly not to use what we can within the rules and confines of the game.

again, you are the one holding others up to your standards of decency or honor. others will have their own, no need to impose yours and one can truly only be responsible for themselves. you will only meet frustration trying to change others ways.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 4:43 PM EDT

Help me out here, my math-fu has grown rusty and weak...

for Physical damage, we know;

if damage for weapon stats X and strength Y is N, then damage for 10X and 10Y is now 10N, for any X, Y, and N

So, with X & Y == N and 10X & 10Y == 10N, what's 'a' need to be for;

aX & Y == 2N

In essence, if you want to double total damage, and don't want to increase Strength at all, by how much do you need to increase your weapon?

(As an aside, Physical damage is just a linear as Magical damage. But the difference of being able to fully upgrade to the same extent as magical damage, just by spending USD *and* having all your untouched XP left over to go into other stats - that DD would have had to have spent on their equal damage increase - remains as one of CBs largest balance failings and one of the major reasons I've no desire to start fighting again)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 4:50 PM EDT

physical non-linearly each with respect to xp

That's incorrect. Physical damage is still a linear increase. The only non linear Damage dealer in the game is UC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 4:53 PM EDT

And as the game progresses, it needs a lot more NW. To double damage from x1000 to x4000 (strength staying constant) is far less than do double from x4000 to x16000 which is obvious.

Just want to add this highlights my 'aside'. You can increase Physical Damage by just increasing Weapon size. As weapon X is fixed, it doesn't even get more expensive as Weapon Size increases.

And all the while you do this, you free up XP that UC/DD users are required to spend on their Linear (well non linear in regards to UC) damage increase

And the 'free' xp doesn't disappear...

QBRanger June 20 2011 5:11 PM EDT

is it indecent because you say it is? the devil's advocate would likely ask if it is right that someone spends usd to get ahead while a cb purist is left behind using only what she has made with her character

Well as it is, with the exbow non-USD spenders have no chance. They have no money for high DBs which is really the only defense a ToA tank has vs the exbow.

And yes, it is my opinion. That of someone who has run tanks for almost my entire CB life.

In essence, if you want to double total damage, and don't want to increase Strength at all, by how much do you need to increase your weapon?

You need to quadruple your weapon x to get double damage given the same strength

Just want to add this highlights my 'aside'. You can increase Physical Damage by just increasing Weapon size. As weapon X is fixed, it doesn't even get more expensive as Weapon Size increases.

Yes, but at some point it get prohibitively expansive to quadruple your weapon x to double your damage.

Physical damage is still a linear increase. The only non linear Damage dealer in the game is UC.

Nope, not at all. Neight. Nein. NO!

You have to double your strength and weapon x to get double strength.

It's my understanding that 1x at 50x and 1x on 16000x do not add the same amount of damage. Tanks still hit a wall, it's just you can chip away at it little by little.

Actually that is incorrect. 1x on any weapon increases the damage by the same given the same strength.

However, the % increase in damage is not the same.

IE:

Let us say a constant of 2M strength.

a 1000x weapon would do 1M damage a hit, just an example
To get to 2M a hit you would need 4000x weapon.

For another x, you may get another 100 damage. With 1M damage at x1000 that increase is 1%. However at 4000x that increase is only .5%.

Same increase but less noticeable and less effective.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 5:12 PM EDT

i also don't think that it is accidental that the counter to this linear damage upgrade happens to be another item that can do its thing by the same linear upgrade path, the specialty crossbows.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 5:18 PM EDT

by definition it is still a linear increase ranger. each point of xp gives you the same amount of damage throughout the curve as does each point on the damage modifier.

a non-linear curve is like alatar's gloves where each plus becomes more expensive.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 5:19 PM EDT

Ranger, that's still linear.

It's Quadruple, right?

Then for any size of Strength, as long as Strength stays fixed, quadrupling your weapon size will always quadruple your total damage.

That's linear...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 5:20 PM EDT

Er, make that double your total damage...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 5:23 PM EDT

Yes, but at some point it get prohibitively expansive to quadruple your weapon x to double your damage.

The same with XP.

Both rewards increase with your size, but unlike XP, you can skew CBD rewards by buying it.

By the time you have a 200,000,000 Fireball, doubling it to double your damage would be quite prohibitive. Would it not?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 5:24 PM EDT

the differences are easy to see on the plus or x of a weapon. one is linear the other is not. doubling the x always has the same cost and effect.

doubling the plus always has the same effect but the cost increases as you go.

back to your example, does doubling the x and doubling strength always have the same effect no matter the levels involved? if you answer yes then that is a linear cost curve.

QBRanger June 20 2011 5:34 PM EDT

back to your example, does doubling the x and doubling strength always have the same effect no matter the levels involved? if you answer yes then that is a linear cost curve.

NO!

2 variables are involved, each has to be doubled to get a double in damage. That is not linear.

Each works by the square root of 2. Doubling only strength increases your damage by the square root of 2.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 5:37 PM EDT

Ranger, you're wrong here. Sorry.

You can double both to get double damage. You can quadruple one to get double damage.

You still get double damage, all the itme.

And it's still linear.

For any values of STR or Weapon Size.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2011 5:38 PM EDT

does doubling the x and doubling strength always have the same effect no matter the levels involved?

Yes.

As stated by Jon in the original changelog.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 5:43 PM EDT

2 variables are involved, each has to be doubled to get a double in damage. That is not linear.

by definition it certainly is man, if doubling both always has the same effect then it is linear. if doubling both gives you less with each successive doubling then it is logarithmic. i really don't know how to say it any clearer than that.

if we cannot agree on the fundamentals of math then no wonder we cannot agree on how powerful the linear damage cost is to the game! ; )

QBRanger June 20 2011 5:53 PM EDT

So if one had to double 15 different things to get a double damage, you would call that a linear damage model?

I would not.

It is not log but it is not a linear relationship.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 5:59 PM EDT

yes it would still be linear if you always got the same increase by increasing the 15 variables by the same amount.

that is all that linear means, the same input always gives the same output.

now that you see this, getting back to the question of why i feel this is so powerful is that physical weapons are the only damage in the game that can be bought with usd with a linear cost curve. everything else gets more expensive the more you buy. this matters more as the game progresses, not less.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 6:01 PM EDT

also, the other counters you talked about all have either a non-linear cost curve to increase or are based solely on xp. the specialty crossbows are really the only counter to usd enhanced physical damage that also can be improved linearly. this is why i feel they will always be necessary as with all other counters the usd user can just spend more to break the threshold.

Zenai June 20 2011 6:08 PM EDT

this is why i feel they will always be necessary as with all other counters the usd user can just spend more to break the threshold.

Ok butting in here now. That is not always an option as the linear growth is not quite what you would expect. It, at the higher levels, becomes prohibitively expensive to upgrade while everything else can just chug along. Yes it is slower but in time will definitely outpace even the biggest USD spender.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 6:14 PM EDT

no, each increase always cost the same amount. so it does not become any more prohibitively expensive the higher it gets.

perhaps you meant doubling your damage will become more expensive. that is true but the physical damage dealer still has a linear usd upgrade path not available to anyone else in the game. if you think it is prohibitive for them, look at the mage who at that point can only grow by gaining more xp.

the physical dealer can keep throwing money into damage mod even while growing the xp route as well. in effect they will always have an option that no one else has.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 20 2011 6:17 PM EDT

Just a random bit of info on my current strat: I specifically designed it so that just by changing my tat I can turn the tides on most people who attack me. I can effectively use every tat in the game.

There are only 3-4 people in the game that I (currently) cannot touch at all regardless of what I try and they would be Mikel, MM, AA and King(with his RoS).

I'm working on changing that >_>

Shenanigans indeed Kef ;)


As far as me slapping on an exbow and using another tat, yeah it works but not quite as well as you'd think it would for me. I have very low dex (for a reason) and only so much PTH, I can only hit you/novice/any toa tank using DBs with it about 10% of the time, which for me to use it as a viable option is no where even close to where I'd need it to be. Yeah that one hit will completely drain you for sure, but chances of me actually doing it are slim at best (with my strat anyway, obviously someone with a lot more dex will have far better chance at landing blows then I will.)

I was using it for quite a while with success but I found it was far easier to go about a different route for dealing with tanks then sacrifice my ranged damage just to neutralize them. That being said I still find the exbow to be useful and I still think it has its place. But honestly its very costly to make an exbow that will even hit and fully drain one of the top tier ToA users, without the person using the exbow having a massive amount of dex or a toa themselves.

When I had 2m dex and was using smallpau1's exbow (x10000 +150) I could only drain novice (without his toa) 1 out of every 10 matches, and it had to be on the very first round of ranged or else he'd drain my dex anyway and then I could never hit him. Another good example was trying to use it against Sickones's char Occam's Razor, I couldn't even actually hit him with it at all. Same thing went for anyone who had a decent amount of dex/toa, it was just too hard for me to land hits on them.

I lost track of the point I was going for.. so yeah. Ramble on.

Zenai June 20 2011 7:54 PM EDT

perhaps you meant doubling your damage will become more expensive. that is true but the physical damage dealer still has a linear usd upgrade path not available to anyone else in the game. if you think it is prohibitive for them, look at the mage who at that point can only grow by gaining more xp.

Ahh linear is always a way to explain something away no? Point of fact cost is cost and the higher you go the more expensive it gets to maintain not just on weapons but everything that a tank needs. Case in point my ELB was nasty, its damage was crazy for ranged but to continue holding my place I had to continually upgrade it to insane proportions. I also had to pump my armor to make the difference between a instant win or loss vs. An Exbow and none of this was cheap either. In short it was indeed prohibitive and you know the kicker.......I was still losing ground.

Think not? Well Windwalker has all of my stuff right now and even with a comparative Tat and armor it is nowhere near enough to make the strat truly viable. To make it work the way it was intended it HAS to have more NW in the ELB or it loses ground against the EXP driven strats. Yes it gains against others more quickly given USD infusion but will always lose ground in the long run. Oh and let's be honest not even Freed would be able to keep up after long considering that less and less CBD is being generated and up for sale. The Tank strat is not suffering terribly just yet but it is dying a slow death it is only a matter of time before Tank driven strats become obsolete due to cost.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 8:50 PM EDT

z, please elaborate as i have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 8:52 PM EDT

by that i mean how does physical damage come out worse than others when it is the only damage in the game that can be boosted linearly with usd in addition to normal growth? mages have the same exact limitations except for one thing, they can't boost damage linearly with anything usd or not.

Zenai June 20 2011 9:16 PM EDT

Ok dude long story short with USD the Buck will eventually come to a grindingly slow, if any, progression whereas with EXP it will be slow but as long as it is played will always be steady growth.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 20 2011 9:29 PM EDT

There is a simple reason for tanks to die out and it is not because they can't keep up. You can keep up with a tank. You just use a significant portion of your money to do so. The problem comes when people decide to switch things up or go away and come back. Then people have to make up the progress they missed, which is constantly a larger amount for tanks. It is things like running ncbs and playing a mage for a while or something else like this that is the reason tanks slowly become harder to run. It is not that if you stay and play a tank you will slowly get worse against other people playing same as you.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 20 2011 11:01 PM EDT

z, physical damage dealers have the exp path as well so that is where you lose me. everyone other than physical damage dealers can use only xp and usd logarithmic upgrade curves. physical damage dealers have the advantage of an extra path that is linear and usd based.

also how is using the term linear a way of explaining things away? it is the math behind the growth curves not some kind of voodoo or black magic so please let me know what you mean by this.

QBRanger June 21 2011 12:35 AM EDT

As per my other thread (which has been answered), a hit for only 180k damage from an exbow that is only x10k completely nuking a ToA character and all its NW is not OP how? Given the amount of x20k+ bows/slings out there.

Considering its NW is less than 133M and the str on the using character is only 3.2M,

Quite a nice bang for the buck on investment to neutralize practically any ToA tank out there.

Zenai June 21 2011 4:10 AM EDT

Nat/Dude: Well let's see, whether a person leaves and comes back does not mean it is any different between types of strats(USD Tank/EXP Mage). What does is capability which is honestly what I, and I believe Ranger, are trying to get across. They both have the same potential, one can get there faster but the other will always catch up. However between the two the all EXP driven one will have a leg up in the long run since EXP will not run out whereas USD will. CBD can only be bought when it is available and not everyone is selling nor does it mean the amount acquired is enough to keep up(bought or earned). As a result of this the EXP driven/dependent strat will always be able to out pace the USD driven/dependent one in the long run. As an analogy think the Tortoise(All Exp Strat) and the Hare(USD Infused Strat) story.

The reason why many are up in arms is because of the flare of the USD infused short run without realizing the aforementioned power of the long run.

Dude as far as me throwing the linear comment it was meant to say fixed upgrade proven by math does not take away from the reality of cost. Just because something is linear does not explain away viability or lack thereof with the infusion of USD. All it means is that for X upgrade it is this much, it does not mean getting X cash necessary is easy to acquire which has been the point from the beginning.

Ranger: I totally agree with you, have since the beginning on the ExBow.

/begin sarcasm: If the ELB could get the same love this would be AWESOME......wait it did and was nerfed several times because of the OP cry.....hmmmm. /end sarcasm

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 10:05 AM EDT

you are saying xp path is better than a usd path. that is a moot point because the physical damage dealer gets them both, that is the kicker!

QBRanger June 21 2011 10:23 AM EDT

But once the USD path is chosen, it becomes more and more expensive to keep up.

A bug or feature of CB?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 10:26 AM EDT

physical damage dealers do not have to choose a path, they get it all. they always have the option to sit back, not spend usd and just grow on xp or throw battle rewards into gear. they also always have the option of buying more damage as well, as long as they are under encumbrance.

that is, once again, why it needs such a counter.

QBRanger June 21 2011 10:39 AM EDT

physical damage dealers do not have to choose a path, they get it all. they always have the option to sit back, not spend usd and just grow on xp or throw battle rewards into gear. they also always have the option of buying more damage as well, as long as they are under encumbrance.

I disagree. If a tank stops spending or using money, their damage ramps up at the sqr 2 if they boost their strength.

At this point they have to spend CB into their weapons to keep up with the linear increases of DD and RBF damage.

that is, once again, why it needs such a counter.

And that is my point. There are now many effective counters to tanks/USD. There used to be only 1 or 2 effective counters a year ago, but now, there are at least 5 counters. So is the exbow, a 1-2 shot=win item needed any longer.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 10:46 AM EDT

since all of the other counters are non-linear i will say that a linear counter is still needed or else usd physical damage dealers will just be able to spend more to surpass the ability of the other counters.

i am not really addressing the second part of your question as i feel that is a dev decision as to how quickly it needs to work to still be an effective counter.

QBRanger June 21 2011 10:51 AM EDT

since all of the other counters are non-linear

How is the RBF non-linear?

Or the ToE?

Or the RoS using AS and GA?

Or the JKF that only needs more levels to do more damage and get better evasion/dexterity?

All are linear, that is needing only xp/levels to be effective. By linear in this sense, I am typing about needing xp only. Not a combination of xp and money that works at the square root of 2 effectiveness.

The ToE is a bit different as a low level ToE gives nearly the same bonus as a very high one.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 10:56 AM EDT

sorry, i have typed it so many times i left off the important part. i will try again.

since all of the other counters are non-usd linear or non linear i will say that a linear usd counter is still needed or else usd physical damage dealers will just be able to spend more to surpass the ability of the other counters.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 21 2011 11:00 AM EDT

I would say ToE and JKF are non-linear. The ToE in that its effect is on a steep curve and the JKF because UC is a non-linear damage, the same amount of exp gives less damage and there is no way to put it back onto the same levels.

Also, these setups were here 1 year ago too Ranger.

Finally, I personally don't think the exbow is worth the investment, I also don't like the way it works. The only thing it is good for is giving you some defensive wins against higher level tanks. The investment you need to actually win 100% against a tank with an exbow is high enough that it really isn't worth it.

Zenai June 21 2011 12:25 PM EDT

you are saying xp path is better than a usd path. that is a moot point because the physical damage dealer gets them both, that is the kicker!

No it doesn't actually. There is a give and take between the 2 in choices so to speak.
Basics: Nothing extra just denoting a basic setup.

Tank: Spend EXP on HP/DEX/STR

Mage: Spend EXP on HP/DD

Enchanter: Spend EXP on HP/Enchantment

All 3 have the Option of infusing USD, the Mage/Enchanter can ramp damage indirectly by upping Armor where as the Tank can do it Armor and Weapon. Now this seems unfair at first until you see that Mage/Enchanter can focus more on MPR Growth in Damage terms ie my EXP goes into my DD/Enchantment. The Tank if no USD infusion happens will fall behind, you cannot put EXP into a Ranged/Melee Weapon for Damage and STR will only go so far.

Now this is no different if no USD infusion happens, in the Short run tanks rule in the long run Mages/Enchanters rule. Why is that? Because MPR is king in CB and you cannot buy it with USD.

Tank: Open USD on Armor and Weapons

Mage: Spend USD on Armor and still up Damage

Enchanter: Spend USD on Armor and still up Damage

Between the 3 Types the Mage/Enchanter can Focus more EXP on HP/DD/Enchantment whereas the Tank will fall behind. Here is a kicker for you dude DD/Enchantment does not have ENCUMBRANCE because it is EXP driven.

I had a person ask me once: What does USD get you in CB?, my answer was simple: To the next level of difficulty more quickly.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 21 2011 12:50 PM EDT

Tanks can keep up without USD infusion. I think we need deal with this basic premise.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 12:52 PM EDT

can a mage upgrade damage linearly with usd?

QBRanger June 21 2011 1:08 PM EDT

Nat

How can tanks keep up without usd at this level?

You made your statement as a fact. Please explain.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 21 2011 1:12 PM EDT

I say they can keep up because they can. It probably takes somewhere around 50% of your fight rewards being infused into your weapon in order to keep up relative to a mage team say. I don't see how that requires USD investment. That's not the same as keeping your tat at or near MTL (which also often tends to happen at the top) that is not keeping up that is keeping ahead. USD investment into your weapon is the same, its not keeping up, its keeping ahead.

Zenai June 21 2011 1:46 PM EDT

You cannot keep up if you have to choose between upgrading Armor/Weapon AND Buying BA. Mage/Enchanters do not have to worry about upgrading a weapon with rewards just armor therefore more cash for other things like BA. Being a Tank is expensive, being a Mage/Enchanter is cheap in comparison.

QBRanger June 21 2011 1:47 PM EDT

How did this 50% number come up.

One also has to figure in BA to buy, upgrading DBs to try to stop elbow hit, and other expenses one has.

Forget buying or upgrading other items. Or hiring minions.

One needs USD as a tank at 6 million MPR to compete.

And what if you have 2 weapons?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 21 2011 1:55 PM EDT

I didn't include the cost of ba as part of your fight rewards, and yes you will end up with quite a bit less money for armor. However tank armor tends to have cheaper upgrade curves as well as less heavy PR weight.

Next it doesn't take USD to keep up. What you are saying isn't keeping up, its creating. Yes it would take skilled money usage or USD to create a 6 mil mpr tank. Keeping up isn't creating a team, its simply keeping a team that's already all setup going.

Also, that is why tanks are slowly going to die out. Because it becomes harder and harder to become a tank and people eventually do like to change in most cases.

Zenai June 21 2011 2:15 PM EDT

Keeping up isn't creating a team, its simply keeping a team that's already all setup going.

I absolutely must debunk this statement.

Keeping up is cheap for a Mage/Enchanter than it ever will be for a Tank because they will automatically have more CBD to use for things that are a must like MPR. If you do not buy BA you CANNOT keep up because you will get LESS MPR as a Tank, since your rewards determine your ability to upgrade everything, is detrimental. No rewards no upgrade, No BA and this is as good as shooting yourself because you automatically fall behind.

Buy:

Tank Strat
BA
Weapons Upgrade
Armor UpGrade

Mage/Enchanter Strat

BA
Armor Upgrade

Summation Mage/Enchanter Team will after time be able to out pace a Tank Team since their Damage can be boosted by Armor and is driven by EXP. Even completely set up the Tank Team will fall behind, it's simple math spend more and you run out of money faster.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2011 2:21 PM EDT

Incorrect Z.

As the Mage Damage increase from Armour *isn't* linear, it will get harder and harder, and continue to do so, the larger they get.

The Tank's doesn't. It remains constant, and linear.

Yes, *if* the Tank spends CDB on Weapons, then *obviously* they cost more then a Mage.

Becuase the mage *doesn't have that option*.

The Tank can rely on just upping Damage with XP, just the same as the Mage, if you want to run a Tank as cheaply as a mage.

Hell, there's even a specific skill designed to allow you to *do* that...

Tanks, over everything else, have the option to boost themselves above everyone else, by using CBD on damage linearly, without ever an increase in cost.

This is a massive bonus, and only *gets* bigger the larger CB becomes.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 2:29 PM EDT

above there were complaints about how expensive it is to double your damage using weapon x mod only. you need to quadruple the amount you have already.

how much does it cost to do the same with alatar's gloves for a mage?

Zenai June 21 2011 3:17 PM EDT

I> ncorrect Z. As the Mage Damage increase from Armour *isn't* linear, it will get harder and harder, and continue to do so, the larger they get.

That is just from Armor they also have EXP for the DD so it is linear as a result.

> The Tank's doesn't. It remains constant, and linear. Yes, *if* the Tank spends CDB on Weapons, then *obviously* they cost more then a Mage. Becuase the mage *doesn't have that option*.

Having it as an option or not makes the statement no less true. There should be no" IF" for a tank upgrading a weapon that is like saying" IF" a mage trains DD or an Enchanter trains an Enchantment it is a oxymoron.

The Tank can rely on just upping Damage with XP, just the same as the Mage..

Incorrect they have a ceiling that was presented earlier in this thread whereas a Mage/Enchanter will NEVER have one as EXP does not have one.

if you want to run a Tank as cheaply as a mage. Hell, there's even a specific skill designed to allow you to *do* that...

Note my example was basic, but even with skills and stats will hit the same wall after time.

Tanks, over everything else, have the option to boost themselves above everyone else, by using CBD on damage linearly, without ever an increase in cost.

Ahh but this is subject to one thing that so many including you right now conveniently seem to forget....Effectiveness. Just because you upgrade does not me you get the effectiveness needed to keep up.

This is a massive bonus, and only *gets* bigger the larger CB becomes.

Once again just because it is available does not meant it is as effective as needed(hence why many do the 2 X damage). Also note just because it is there does not mean it is reachable. You can upgrade to +500 DB's or x100k on a weapon however does this mean it is reachable right now. The availability of CBD is indeed limiting.....

Tanks get a bad rap because they get damage upgrade upfront but they reach 2 ceilings readily, availability of CBD and Encumbrance. No CBD and you have a stagnating Tank that can only be partially sustained through a doubling of damage via a skill or stat. Once the ceilings for them are hit complete stagnation until there is CBD available for the necessary upgrades.

Mages get a good rap because they have a lower damage upgrade curve. They have a lower damage output upfront but continually grow.

If a Tank runs out of money they are at a standstill, a Mage/Enchanter can just keep trucking along.

If a Tank hits the Skill/Stat Wall of effectiveness they are at a standstill, a Mage/Enchanter can just keep trucking along.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 3:30 PM EDT

physical damage dealers get just as much xp as the mage. explain how they quit growing without usd again please.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2011 3:35 PM EDT

That is just from Armor they also have EXP for the DD so it is linear as a result.

Of course. But that isn't the point, is it.

Having it as an option or not makes the statement no less true. There should be no" IF" for a tank upgrading a weapon that is like saying" IF" a mage trains DD or an Enchanter trains an Enchantment it is a oxymoron.

No.

For Mages/Enchanters, those *aren't* 'options' but the only way to do things.

Only Tanks have the linear option to use CBD or XP, or a combination of both.

Incorrect they have a ceiling that was presented earlier in this thread whereas a Mage/Enchanter will NEVER have one as EXP does not have one.

What?

Note my example was basic, but even with skills and stats will hit the same wall after time.

XP cost per level hasn't been non linear for ages... What wall?

Ahh but this is subject to one thing that so many including you right now conveniently seem to forget....Effectiveness. Just because you upgrade does not me you get the effectiveness needed to keep up.

You've lost me, again.

The availability of CBD is indeed limiting.....

Yes, again, obvious. No one has enough XP to train a 2,000,000,000,000 DD yet. So that's indeed limiting...

If a Tank runs out of money they are at a standstill, a Mage/Enchanter can just keep trucking along.

What, they can't up their Strength?

availability of CBD and Encumbrance. No CBD and you have a stagnating Tank

Have fights stopped rewarding CBD?

Seriously, you've lost me utterly Zen...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 3:36 PM EDT

i don't see the ceiling either. a physical damage dealer can just boost strength (or really dex up to a certain point) to increase damage just as a mage can with dd. the scales are certainly different but they have exactly the same path to xp damage boosting.

Zenai June 21 2011 3:43 PM EDT

Sigh:

Gentlemen Skills and Stats hit a wall of effectiveness which stop when? Double the damage right? This was presented earlier in this thread no offense but go back and read please. No there is not enough EXP to reach your nebulous point but can definitely be reached FREE, no Tank could get it free and this IS the point. The short run is indeed run by Tanks I am not denying that but in the long run Mages/Enchanters rule.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 3:49 PM EDT

are you saying that unless you double damage then you aren't growing?

i don't think this is a reading deficiency causing the confusion, can you please quit being rude and explain what you mean?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 4:21 PM EDT

how does str and the damage modifier effect the max damage exactly? are they added together or multiplied in some fashion?

is there a way to determine what each level added to strength will add to max damage? how about the same with the damage modifier of a weapon?

Zenai June 21 2011 4:25 PM EDT

Dude: Saying no offense but go back and read is NOT being rude it means that I do not want to completely re-explain something that is listed in several posts earlier in the thread. I also do not think it rude to say if you want to be a part of the current conversation that you should know the history of it in order to contribute to it.

Point Blank: Mage/Enchanters while on the Slow grinding path will out pace the Tank. Add to this that they have the ExBow on their back the Tank side of the CB Strategic spectrum is in danger of becoming obsolete and therefore dying out. All of the arguments of USD infusing not only go for tanks they apply to Mage/Enchanters as well. Just because it is more effective upfront for Tanks does not mean anything other than it is a possibility that costs.

Mages/Enchanters get a lot free including Damage output and if anyone denies that then they are not paying attention.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 4:29 PM EDT

i have read every post in this thread several times, i see no one showing any data that a ceiling exists. maybe you could quote it here since you seem to know where it is?

please prove what you just stated as well. if you cannot show data then it is just your opinion based on anecdotal evidence and we can then ignore it until you can back it up with data.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 4:40 PM EDT

Point Blank: Mage/Enchanters while on the Slow grinding path will out pace the Tank.

data please, i disagree with this.

Add to this that they have the ExBow on their back the Tank side of the CB Strategic spectrum is in danger of becoming obsolete and therefore dying out.

speculation, no one can see the future. this has been predicted for years now and yet we still have 4 toa users in the top ten. the toa is a physical damage only tat.

All of the arguments of USD infusing not only go for tanks they apply to Mage/Enchanters as well.

not all of them, physical damage dealers are the only ones in the game with a linear usd route and this is a massive difference.

Just because it is more effective upfront for Tanks does not mean anything other than it is a possibility that costs.

it is more effective throughout if used throughout. if it means nothing else, are you for mages getting a focus item with a linear usd upgrade cost then?

Mages/Enchanters get a lot free including Damage output and if anyone denies that then they are not paying attention.

what is the free damage output. everything in the game either costs xp or cbd. where is this free damage?

Zenai June 21 2011 4:55 PM EDT

Taken from the Wiki:

The amount of ST trained will increase the amount of damage one can do with a physical weapon. It also increases the Encumbrance limit on a minion significantly. (Having x4 the strength will increase damage by x2; you must also upgrade your Weapons either using the Blacksmith or Forging to keep your damage on par).

The amount of DX will affect how well you hit minions who have DX or Evasion trained. In order to hit reliably you must also increase the PTH on your weapon.

DX will also make it harder for another Tank to hit you, but they will still hit you if their weapon is upgraded with enough PTH, unless you use Displacement Boots or train Evasion.

At equal DX you have a certain base chance to hit, depending on your weapon (between 40% for 2-handed melee weapons and 100% for ELB with 1.0 Archery in ranged rounds). DX alone allows up to one extra full hit in melee against an opponent, with PTH able to add much more if unopposed by Evasion.

Dexterity must be trained at an equal level as Evasion in order for evasion to work at full effectiveness.

Bloodlust (BL) Initial training cost: 840 exp. Bloodlusted Minions inflict tremendous damage with physical attacks during melee rounds.

BL has reduced effect when its level is less than 1/4 of ST. The maximum effect of BL can be achieved when the BL level is trained to 1/4 of the minion's strength ( The maximum BL effect is (0.75).

Bloodlust effectiveness is doubled for the first hit (first hit, not first attack, so if you miss but later hit tha The effect gives an extra (BL effect * 100)% to your physical damage in melee only e.g. 0.3 means you w damage. Often used along with Vampiric Aura (VA).

I don't know about you but there looks to be stipulations to capability of Damage output that only CBD can alleviate. You can train your stats/skills only so much until it no long is beneficial....ie a Wall of Effectiveness.


Direct damage (DD) spells can be trained like any other attribute, and are listed similarly as the spell level followed by the effect in parentheses. For instance: Fireball: 22,827 (2,123) The effect represents the maximum damage possible inflicted on a single minion in one round. Note that the effect will be lower at low levels by about one-third, and approach full potential asymptotically (Decay is exempt from this). See this changelog thread for more information: [1]. For spells that affect a single target, the listed effect will be the maximum damage of the spell. For spells that take multiple targets, the total damage possible for the spell will be the spell effect multiplied by 5 (the largest number of enemy targets). Since damage is spread equally among targets, if less than 5 targets are present, per-minion damage will be correspondingly greater. Spell damage is slightly randomized, and can range from 50% to 100% of the listed spell effect. This total is then further reduced by various spells and equipment, such as magical AC, etc. Note that Decay is a special DD spell, and is handled differently. If a DD spell is trained to any level and can fire in a given round, it will override any equipped weapon for that round. For instance, if a minion trains Cone of Cold (a melee-only spell) and equips a Bow and a sword, the minion will use the bow in ranged combat and the Cone of Cold in melee combat. All DD spells fire once in a round and always hit.

I do not see the Wall of Effectiveness in the DD Spells do you? Now I do see a bit for Enchantments in the Wiki yes and in that I will digress. I will however say that it is still cheaper for them than a Tank to keep up in the long run. When upgrading Weapons/Armor to keep up it will eventually become prohibitive to even try whereas with DD spells they will just continue going and going.

Zenai June 21 2011 5:03 PM EDT

not all of them, physical damage dealers are the only ones in the game with a linear usd route and this is a massive difference.

I never said linear dudemus I said that can be affected/applied. I can buy CBD with USD and do an Armor upgrade for Ag's or Ng's which affect damage output.

what is the free damage output. everything in the game either costs xp or cbd. where is this free damage?

To a Tank a Mages Damage Output IS free as they do not HAVE to spend CBD. Up to this point I have never said otherwise.

QBRanger June 21 2011 5:39 PM EDT

Either way, the exbow is the only item in the game that is a pass/fail.

Hit a ToA tank and most of the time in 1-2 hits, the entire tattoo and all the NW on the minion is moot.

That to me, in a nutshell is one of the most grossly unbalanced things in any online game I have ever played.

I feel bad for those without high + DBs and USD who try to play tanks.

The exbow is just killer vs them as they always get hit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2011 5:42 PM EDT

I don't know about you but there looks to be stipulations to capability of Damage output that only CBD can alleviate. You can train your stats/skills only so much until it no long is beneficial....ie a Wall of Effectiveness.

This makes no sense.

Training Strength *never* stops being beneficial for Physical damage...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 5:53 PM EDT

z, you also have to double the xp in any direct damage spell to to double the damage. the only difference is that with physical damage dealers you have two things to double or you can quadruple one.

none of this creates a wall of effectiveness or a ceiling any more than having to double the xp in a dd spell will.

ranger, i feel the same way about the linear damage usd upgrade path for physical damage. i feel better about it due to the counters it has though. this is why i argue so vehemently when you say the counter is no longer necessary.

as i have said to you in the past regarding other game mechanics, in my mind those two things are sides of the same coin and must be dealt with together though so in my opinion i am vehemently against changing only one of the two sides.

QBRanger June 21 2011 6:01 PM EDT

ranger, i feel the same way about the linear damage usd upgrade path for physical damage. i feel better about it due to the counters it has though. this is why i argue so vehemently when you say the counter is no longer necessary.

Ah, but has the linear upgrade damage for weapons really skewed the game right now?

Used to be tanks were over 75% of the top 20. Now? I will not count the JKF as that is a tank but not a NW backed tank. Just a tattoo that anyone without CB2 can use. There are 50% tanks and 50% others.

If we go back to the non-linear upgrade fashion for weapons, damage will be the same. Just people will have more noticeable jumps as they have to upgrade the x in one shot rather than gradually.

As I understand, the changed from the past upgrade path to the current linear path did not change the damage per NW of a weapon given a set strength.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 6:15 PM EDT

that is true from what i understand as well, you can just do partials now which up top can help dramatically as before you might save for a year or more for a single upgrade. now you can benefit from the partial throughout that year.

i do feel though that the linear usd skews the game. i would love to see some data on it but unfortunately we would need to look at the top physical damage numbers and figure out what percentage of the damage is coming from the strength and what percentage is coming from the linear upgrade to the damage mod.

i will say that i am not asking to go back to the old method. i am in fact asking for no change here at all and am content with the counters we have for the usd linear option.

if a change is necessary, i think tweaking jon's latest exbow fix is the option i can support.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 21 2011 6:18 PM EDT

Used to be tanks were over 75% of the top 20. Now? I will not count the JKF as that is a tank but not a NW backed tank. Just a tattoo that anyone without CB2 can use. There are 50% tanks and 50% others.

This sounds like a case against these arguments. Theoretically the ideal proportion should be something like 33% tank, 33% mage and 33% other

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 6:25 PM EDT

very good observation nat, actually since the physical damage route has always been touted as requiring usd at the top, i would expect it to be the smallest segment even.

Zenai June 21 2011 7:17 PM EDT

i do feel though that the linear usd skews the game.

USD Skews everything so honestly this is nothing new even since CBs inception can we please get past this and onto other things that are far more important?

i would love to see some data on it but unfortunately we would need to look at the top physical damage numbers and figure out what percentage of the damage is coming from the strength and what percentage is coming from the linear upgrade to the damage mod.

Well tell me the parameters and I'll do it or at least try.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 21 2011 7:45 PM EDT

USD Skews everything so honestly this is nothing new even since CBs inception can we please get past this and onto other things that are far more important?

i was responding to a direct question by the thread's creator, also this has a direct bearing on the thread in my opinion so i will get past it when i am ready to.

as for the data needed, do we know the formula for determining physical damage? if so, can the strength and weapon damage mod be separated? if so then that just needs to be applied to the top physical damage dealers in the game and see what the ratio for each is.

Zenai June 21 2011 8:02 PM EDT

i was responding to a direct question by the thread's creator, also this has a direct bearing on the thread in my opinion so i will get past it when i am ready to.

Now who's being rude?

I offered to run the experiment all I needed was the parameters and I get dismissive as well as speculative/argumentative commentary asking me for what I asked for in the first place. Sounds wrong to me and as a result I digress.

I would prefer for this to be my final comment in this thread. Good day to everyone please allow me to gracefully bow out now.

QBRanger June 22 2011 12:14 AM EDT

I guess the only way to prove my point is to actually use the exbow, like I used the ToE and the HF and show just how overpowered it is.

I hate to use such an abusive item in such a manner, but it seem to be the best way to show its abusiveness.

Duke June 22 2011 12:30 AM EDT

I am also planning on getting a crossbow. I think we wont see any more changelog so better start to work with current rule.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 22 2011 12:30 AM EDT

i dug up the formula for physical damage calculation:

Damage = Base damage * SQRT ( (ST/20) * Weapon_damage_multiplier )

anyone know the base damage for the elven long bow by chance, evidently you don't use the one listed in the description but rather what a x1 weapon would do on a 20 str minion.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] June 22 2011 12:38 AM EDT

To be honest.. I think those of you switching over and trying the ex-bow will be surprised how weak and unreliable it actually is.
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