Elven Stiletto really stings (in Changelog)


AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 12:50 PM EDT

A number of people, both in threads, chatmail, carrier pidgeon, etc. have expressed the desire for some kind of weapon that can cause debilitating damage over time.

In other news, the Elven Stiletto is now a lot more rare :)

stabilo April 2 2012 12:55 PM EDT

Rock & Roll !!!

I love that we got changes again!! Thank you!

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 12:57 PM EDT

I don't notice anything :(

QBJohnnywas April 2 2012 12:58 PM EDT

"Target bleeds 20% per round, plus vorpal. Unforgeable"

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 12:59 PM EDT

Hmm, it should really be noticeable somewhere in the fight log.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 1:00 PM EDT

I'd like to see the Elven stiletto to do something similar, something like a vital stab that makes the target bleed out (some % hp lost per turn even after the ES holder dies, based on damage done up to a cap) or lose a certain % of HP recovery from TSA/VA/MH. Reminds me of Rogue like weapon with a Rogue like ability.

Please tell me this had something to do with it ;)

Thankfully I held onto one :P

QBRanger April 2 2012 1:01 PM EDT

"Target bleeds 20% per round, plus vorpal. Unforgeable"

Can anyone clarify this?

Does it mean that the target loses 20% of their HP per round or that you take an additional 20% damage per round per hit, or 20% per round per damage no matter how many hits?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 1:05 PM EDT

^ Going to test it in the tourney once my BA regens

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 1:07 PM EDT

Hmm, it should really be noticeable somewhere in the fight log.

Yes, it should. At the end of the round, you should see a message that it's applied. Flush your party if you don't see it (flushes occur every 50 fights, or when someone hits Update Stats, or when you train something, even zero xp.)

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 1:08 PM EDT

Xeno - yes, as well as some chatmails with GW. Numerous people had similar ideas. Yours provided the best base weapon to modify.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 1:09 PM EDT

NS, just flushed, still no message. I'm testing with "Uber Contest" and have an ES on my third minion.

QBRanger April 2 2012 1:10 PM EDT

The Reaper takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
The Reaper's Decay hit Arrogance for no damage
Mick Taylor burns from the flames surrounding Kamentara (321)

Kamentara scratched Mick Taylor [1,539] ---- using an ES.


The Reaper takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
The Reaper's Decay hit Arrogance for no damage
Mick Taylor burns from the flames surrounding Kamentara (435)

Kamentara's blow was dodged by Mick Taylor


The Reaper takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
The Reaper's Decay hit Arrogance for no damage
Mick Taylor burns from the flames surrounding Kamentara (429)

Kamentara stumbled swinging at Mick Taylor

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 1:12 PM EDT

Flush and try now

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] April 2 2012 1:13 PM EDT

wow.. Nice job! :D

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 1:14 PM EDT

Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds

Alright, showing up now. Still doesn't say if it's 20% of damage dealt or 20% of target HP. Also whether or not it is recalculated each hit if it is target's HP.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 1:17 PM EDT

Xeno - yes, as well as some chatmails with GW. Numerous people had similar ideas. Yours provided the best base weapon to modify.

:) Awesomesauce

QBRanger April 2 2012 1:20 PM EDT

Still do not see anything new. Trained about 4 times.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 2 2012 1:26 PM EDT

someone go break Nightstrike's other ribs.

Lord Bob April 2 2012 1:37 PM EDT

Yeah, NOW you start to make a bunch of cool changes.

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 1:41 PM EDT

Ranger - yours is a different problem. There's a conflict with having two weapons on a minion (ie, ranged and melee). I'm working on it.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 1:59 PM EDT

Ranger - yours is a different problem. There's a conflict with having two weapons on a minion (ie, ranged and melee). I'm working on it.

Wow, good catch NS and Ranger!

QBRanger April 2 2012 2:24 PM EDT

The person I fought only has a ES with no missile weapon. He does have a RBF and GA.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 2:26 PM EDT

Owe, you fought someone with an ES, not while using one?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 2:27 PM EDT

Also ES cant be Salvaged (Not sure if this was intentional), wanted to switch my MoD into one in the tourney to test it out, but alas it is not possible.

Demigod April 2 2012 2:46 PM EDT

Thanks for making another tweak. I really do appreciate the changes, regardless of whether they benefit or hinder my team.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 2:56 PM EDT

<3s

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 3:10 PM EDT

Ok, fixed a few bugs.. please test all aspects of it now. Vorpal is back in.

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 3:10 PM EDT

(Flush first)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 3:20 PM EDT

Awesome change!

So how is the 20% calculated? Is it just a single extra 20% damage for the damage done on that round only?

Does it recalculate round to round?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 3:37 PM EDT

Euneva cast Ablative Shield on Bacikiyan (21)
Euneva cast Ablative Shield on Euneva (21)
Euneva cast Ablative Shield on Itno (21)

Ranged Combat
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
 
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
 
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
 
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Altstar [2]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [3]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [2]
R.I.P. Altstar	
 
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [2]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [3]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [2]
 
Melee Combat
Gunjes mistimed his attack at Bacikiyan
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [5]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [5]
R.I.P. Toaltcon	
 
Gunjes chopped Bacikiyan [27]
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [5]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [3]
	Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds
 
Gunjes swung wildly at Bacikiyan
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [4]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [5]
	Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds
R.I.P. Gunjes	
 
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [4]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [6]
	Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds
R.I.P. Bacqu Iki	R.I.P. Bacikiyan

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 3:42 PM EDT

Forgot to put the point to that post. That shows that bleeding continues after the dealing minion dies. Also, it appears to be 20% of HP+AS calculated only once.

41 = 27 + 3(x)
x = 14/3 = 4 & 2/3 AT LEAST

and 20/5 = 4
and 41/5 = 8.2

Now this is where it gets interesting. 20% of HP would be 12+27 or 39 damage, no enough to kill in 3 rounds. However, 27+16 = 43, which means if AS is included it should have died 1 rounds sooner. So, I don't know what is going on.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 3:54 PM EDT

At Titan's Request
Kano-san tapped Caharin [52,876]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [52,876]
Kano-san bruised Caharin [46,322]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [46,322]
Kano-san tapped Caharin [39,839]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [39,839]
Unfair stumbled swinging at Caharin
Hax glanced off of Caharin [140,908]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [140,908]
Hax glanced off of Caharin [198,616]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [16389]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (22,104)

       Divine Shield's Decay hit Shenanigans [1,232,491]
Unfair absorbs damage [615,600]
Shenanigans's Guardian Angel smote Divine Shield (342,222)
Caharin touches Shenanigans [6,872,061]
Shenanigans's Guardian Angel smote Caharin (174,834)
	Caharin bleeds from his deep wounds
R.I.P. Shenanigans	
 
Kano-san bruised Caharin [73,328]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [73,328]
Kano-san bruised Caharin [51,275]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [51,275]
Kano-san bruised Caharin [38,185]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [38,185]
Unfair's blow was dodged by Caharin
Hax glanced off of Caharin [169,756]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [10433]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (10,380)
Hax glanced off of Caharin [160,251]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [6553]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (6,083)

	Divine Shield's Decay hit Kano-san [2,472,556]
Unfair absorbs damage [615,600]
Kano-san's Guardian Angel smote Divine Shield (577,637)
Caharin touches Kano-san [6,654,419]
Kano-san's Guardian Angel smote Caharin (207,697)
	Caharin bleeds from his deep wounds
Unfair regenerated 125,376 HP	
R.I.P. Kano-san	
 
Unfair stumbled swinging at Caharin
Hax glanced off of Caharin [145,127]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [525]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (376)
Hax scratched Caharin [176,741]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [138,661]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [12463]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (15,228)

	Divine Shield's Decay hit Cheater [2,670,739]
Unfair absorbs damage [615,600]
Cheater's Guardian Angel smote Divine Shield (595,023)
Caharin touches Cheater [3,645,917]
Unfair absorbs damage [615,600]
Cheater's Guardian Angel smote Caharin (230,011)
	Caharin bleeds from his deep wounds
Unfair regenerated 125,376 HP	
	R.I.P. Divine Shield
 
Unfair stumbled swinging at Caharin
Hax glanced off of Caharin [153,840]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [50463]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (41,892)
Hax glanced off of Caharin [173,172]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [64575]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (43,750)

	Caharin touches Cheater [3,622,722]
Cheater's Guardian Angel smote Caharin (49,745)
	Caharin bleeds from his deep wounds
Unfair regenerated 125,376 HP	
R.I.P. Cheater	
 
Unfair mistimed his attack at Caharin
Hax glanced off of Caharin [166,891]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [63353]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (45,427)
Hax scratched Caharin [171,140]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [66851]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (42,964)

	Caharin touches Unfair [8,028,624]
Unfair's Guardian Angel smote Caharin (239,179)
	Caharin bleeds from his deep wounds
Unfair regenerated 125,376 HP	
R.I.P. Unfair	
 
Hax glanced off of Caharin [194,427]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [61217]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (46,576)
Hax scratched Caharin [165,251]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [53125]
Caharin's Guardian Angel smote Hax (45,959)

	Caharin touches Hax [4,261,248]
Hax's Guardian Angel smote Caharin (268,837)
	Caharin bleeds from his deep wounds
Hax regenerated 78,262 HP	
R.I.P. Hax	

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 4:07 PM EDT

Gunjes gashed Bacikiyan [34]
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [3]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [5]
	Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds
R.I.P. Toaltcon	
 
Gunjes mistimed his attack at Bacikiyan
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [4]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [4]
	Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds
	R.I.P. Bacikiyan
 
Gunjes sliced into Euneva [24]
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [3]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds
R.I.P. Gunjes	
 
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [4]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [3]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds
 
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [3]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds
 
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [5]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds
R.I.P. Bacqu Iki	

 
Another one, did 34 damage, dies in 2 rounds from bleeding. 4x2 = 8; fits the 20% HP calc'd once theory. Second part, did 24 damage to Euneva. Didn't die in 4 rounds 4*4+24 = 40. Still fits into that theory. However, if that was correct, Xeno should have killed FGoD with 5 bleed outs.

Quyen April 2 2012 4:08 PM EDT

try to attack someone with a *big* amount of AC.. maybe that might be reducing the bleed? :)

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 4:23 PM EDT

[16:12] tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (71,578) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (129,954) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (231,334) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (343,700) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (406,167) That kept going till bleed out hit 1.2m

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2012 4:26 PM EDT

Gunjes's blow was dodged by Bacikiyan
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [3]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Toaltcon [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [3]
R.I.P. Toaltcon	
 
Gunjes rent Bacikiyan [36]
	Bacikiyan's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [3]
Euneva's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [4]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [5]
	Bacikiyan bleeds from his deep wounds (7)
	R.I.P. Bacikiyan
 
Gunjes sliced into Euneva [25]
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Gunjes [6]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [5]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds (5)
R.I.P. Gunjes	
 
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [4]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [3]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds (5)
 
	Euneva's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [4]
Itno's Magic Missile hit Bacqu Iki [4]
	Euneva bleeds from his deep wounds (5)
R.I.P. Bacqu Iki
Why Euneva's bleeding not changing; but other people's is?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 4:40 PM EDT

20% of HP is a big damn number...

Quyen April 2 2012 4:56 PM EDT

maybe.. it's dealing 20% of damage dealt :O

moskel April 2 2012 5:56 PM EDT

It starts to hurt bad...

Sully bleeds from his deep wounds (1,016,844)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 6:01 PM EDT

If it's 20% of the Targets HP, that's actually far too powerful.

No TSA, one hit and you're dead in 5 rounds?

Can the Bleed damage be PLed away?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 6:19 PM EDT

it's damage dealt... still makes the VB very unattractive

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 6:25 PM EDT

From Titan's post above, it looks like the bleed continues at the last amount done, and is overridden from round to round.

The next question is how long does the bleed last?

And lastly it appears you can't PL this damage away, which would give another option over the MoD when facing PL teams.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 6:30 PM EDT

In talking in chat earlier, we figured out that the number shown is merely a tally of all bleed damage done for the entire fight. The actual damage is 20% of the damage dealt by the ES per round, then theres some unknown factor of actually bleeding out that we were unable to come up with.

So when you see X bleeds for 1.1m, its actually how much he has bled for as a total throughout the entire fight, it doesnt mean that he bled for 1.1m that round.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 6:33 PM EDT

Ah! Makes sense. ;)

As there was only a single hit for 5 bleed damage, the target is showing 5 bleed damage every round.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 6:35 PM EDT

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the bleeding stops when the attacker stops. However I don't think any of us who have been testing this have had the ES holder die while attacking.

From what I've observed, it seems the bleed damage stacks up and the number shown is just the cumulative amount of damage taken from bleeding up to that point. However I could be completely mistaken.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 6:36 PM EDT

And Gohan ninja'd me

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 6:36 PM EDT

<.<

QBRanger April 2 2012 6:38 PM EDT

So if you hit 3 times for 500k each, the bleeding will be:

3 x .2 x 500k = 750k a round? Until the attacker with the ES dies?

That seems ok, however, with a base of 55, it would take a huge ES to get there, with a ginormous strength.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 6:40 PM EDT

I see no reason to use the VB...

ES:
Liver carved into Rawr [264,516]
Liver scratched Rawr [140,643]
Rawr bleeds from his deep wounds (81,031)
Liver scratched Rawr [141,975]
Liver scratched Rawr [141,608]
Rawr bleeds from his deep wounds (137,747)
Liver hacked Rawr [188,318]
Liver clove Rawr [130,632]
Rawr bleeds from his deep wounds (201,536)

VB:
Liver clove Rawr [319,022]
Liver gashed Rawr [230,327]
Liver sliced into Rawr [198,773]
Liver gashed Rawr [261,986]
Liver hacked Rawr [247,815]
Liver sliced into Rawr [270,526]

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 6:42 PM EDT

ranger: hitting 3 times for 500k would be 1.5m x .2 extra so a 300k bleed for that round. I think anyways.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 6:50 PM EDT

Novice, the VB did more damage. The 201k damage is the total poison damage. It was not 81k + 137k + 201k = 409k damage poison. It was more like 81k + 56k = 137k, + 64k = 201k damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 6:51 PM EDT

Nov,

I take it the VB info is all two hits per round, over three rounds?

If that's the case, the VB still wins out.

The total damage are;

ES
486190
421330
520486

Total: 1428006

VB
549349
460759
518341

Total: 1528449

Of course, this is moot if the weapons are of different sizes. ;)

QBRanger April 2 2012 6:51 PM EDT

Yea, duh, my math skill are not well now.

QBRanger April 2 2012 6:52 PM EDT

I see no reason to use the VB...

Now that Damage Control is essentially retired, is the only heavy AC minion you face Titan?

But if the new bleeding is not subject to GA, that is a sweet thing.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 6:53 PM EDT

I got something like ~1.2mil with ES and ~1.5mil with VB for my totals. So the VB did about 300k more damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 6:55 PM EDT

Thinking about this more, the new ES (if it works as we assume) is rather quite elegently balanced.

I original thought "Useless. Might just as well increase it's damage by 20% and be done with it. Never use it unless it does more damage than the VB, and if it does, you'll never use a VB again".

I have since changed my mind and think the new 'bleed' damage is very good.

It does slightly less damage than a VB, which should be better in most situations.

Where the Bleed damage comes into it's own (and is a cut above 'just' being a 20% increase to damage per round) is that it seems to be non reduceable and it ignores PL.

These factors in themselves give it a use alongside the VB.

The VB should do more direct damage when wacking away on a 400AC behemoth. While the ES should drain away more damage facing a PL backed wall.

Elegent. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 6:56 PM EDT

Ah! And as Ranger mentions, not triggering GA is also another sweet thing!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 6:57 PM EDT

(T85) liver[test] defeated Control after 18 rounds of combat:ES 17/17/17
(T85) liver[test] defeated Control after 25 rounds of combat:VB: 24/21/22

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 7:00 PM EDT

The ES is better facing a PL team? Well we're assuming that the bleed isn't covered by PL.

Not sure what you're getting at Nov?

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 7:02 PM EDT

Based on that novice, I was wrong with my math, I'm guessing Ranger was right. Thus, the longer the fight goes on the higher the poison will get, eventually over taking the VB.

It's possible 20% would have to be reduced some to balance it more with the VB?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 7:06 PM EDT

I think GL caught something I missed...

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 7:08 PM EDT

Previous bleed: Dremora Lord bleeds from his deep wounds (1,837,183)

Damage done following round: To eviscerated Dremora Lord [472,667]
To decapitated Dremora Lord [402,924]
To eviscerated Dremora Lord [370,470]

Total = 1,246,061 @ 20% = 249,212.2

Bleed for the next round = Dremora Lord bleeds from his deep wounds (2,086,394)

Bleed 2 - 249,212.2 = 1,837,181.8

i.e. the previous rounds bleed damage.

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:09 PM EDT

Can't see image.... going blind... could be crappy work computer...

BTW, this is great now. Finally a reason to have strat chats again!!!

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:10 PM EDT

Can I make 1 suggestion please?

When discussing damage done with the ES or really any weapon, perhaps put in the thread the size of the weapon and the str of the minion using it. For reference. The AC of the attacked minion would be nice also.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 7:11 PM EDT

An Elven Stiletto [55x13000] (+109) vs 450 AC

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:12 PM EDT

Gohan,

Can you test that same weapon as a MoD and VB vs the same minion to see if it is better?

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 7:12 PM EDT

Sure can, let me pull some numbers.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 7:14 PM EDT

:D Thanks for posting that Nov!

Well, there's the proof. Bleed damage ignores PL.

That's why it's better facing Control (zero AC on three minions, but 6/7M HP backed by 6/7M HP PL) than a VB.

The Vorpal ability of both weapons is ignored, and the VB has to cut through PL (including its 10% damage reduction), that 20% of the ES damage ignores.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 7:18 PM EDT

I did a MoD vs ES comparison against Dude's character. ES beat out his team hands down, didn't compare the VB though.

The key point of the ES is that the person who takes the hit gets the bleed damage, but the actual weapon damage is absorbed by PL normally (If there is a PL user that is.)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 7:19 PM EDT

Breaking it down.

In Nov's example above, a VB would do 0.9 damage per round. An ES would do 0.9 + 0.18 for a total of 1.08 damage.

The ES would do exactly 20% more damage than the VB on PL teams.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 7:23 PM EDT

VB Test-
A Vorpal Blade [67x13527] (+109) vs 450 AC

18 Total rounds - Melee hits 31 / 31 / 673,256

average 550k/hit~ damage vs the wall.
average 900k/hit~ vs other minions.


MoD Test-
A Mace of Disruption [75x13963] (+109)

20 Total rounds - Melee Hits 34 / 36 / 485,801

No AS present
--------------
average 300k vs wall
average 1m vs other minions

ES Test
An Elven Stiletto [55x13000] (+109)

17 Total Rounds - 23 / 25 / 475,695

Average 500k/hit vs wall + Dremora Lord bleeds "" (1,859,585)
Projectile mouthful bleeds (328,608)

Average 700k/hit vs other minions

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:26 PM EDT

There is also something else we need to consider.

You can significantly boost your to hit with the ES with items such as the MC and the GoM. More hits=more poison damage.

I think that having the poison AND vorpal on the ES is a bit too powerful.

I would think boosting the ES to 60 base and removing the vorpal would be a nice idea. Giving a decision on poison or vorpal.

But that's just my thoughts.

Gohan,

Thanks!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 7:29 PM EDT

More hits doesn't matter.

Every melee weapon deals more damage with more hits.

If you use an equally damaging ES to an equally damaging Morg, the ES will still deal 20% more damage than the Morg.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 7:32 PM EDT

More Thoughts.

Cost aside, Nov's right. Why ever use a VB again?

The ES has now become one of the top tier weapons.

It's a choice (bar the MoD) of which 20% bonus is your poison?

Do you want 20% Life leech? Or do you want 20% extra damage that isn't reduced by anything, ignores PL and doesn't trigger GA.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 7:32 PM EDT

^ Way ahead of you.

[18:46] <Xenogard> buff the VB to make it worth the money over the ES, give it the flat out ability to ignore pl like the mod, rather then kind of get around it with the es
[More Chat]
[19:01] <Xenogard> Like I said, buff the VB to give it something extra... or take vorpal away from the ES and keep the rest... I like the bleed damage too much to take it away :(

And I could've told you all like an hour ago that poison ignores PL when I was first testing it, sadly I logged out for a bit >_<

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 7:34 PM EDT

Make that 3 hours ago

[16:12] tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (71,578) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (129,954) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (231,334) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (343,700) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (406,167) That kept going till bleed out hit 1.2m

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:35 PM EDT

[18:46] <Xenogard> buff the VB to make it worth the money over the ES, give it the flat out ability to ignore pl like the mod, rather then kind of get around it with the es

If you give it the ability to ignore PL, then we have another MoD. Vorpal + ignore PL >> double AS damage (more GA) + ignore PL.

[19:01] <Xenogard> Like I said, buff the VB to give it something extra... or take vorpal away from the ES and keep the rest... I like the bleed damage too much to take it away :(

Yes, a great suggestion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 2 2012 7:36 PM EDT

I agree with Ranger, the bleed needs to be a seperate property, and split from Vorpal.

Then you get the choice of a VB for 400AC minions. A BoTH/Morg for 20% leech, the uber MoD to pwn AS teams, or a 'Bleed' weapon for an extra 20% damage that isn't reduced, ignores PL and doesn't trigger GA.

The VB would still have a niche, as the extra 'bleed' damage would be reduced by high AC, making it not as good a choice when facing 400AC walls.

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:39 PM EDT

[16:12] tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (71,578) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (129,954) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (231,334) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (343,700) tankwall bleeds from his deep wounds (406,167) That kept going till bleed out hit 1.2m

As you hit the opponent more and more, should not the bleed damage go up as well? I would think in subsequent rounds, the bleed damage would go up per round with more hits.

It seems constant throughout this battle, though I have not seen the entire battle and am not sure.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 7:51 PM EDT

It was constant because the damage I was doing to Dudes wall was constant throughout the match. That's that extra 20% bleed damage building up each round on Tankwall rather then getting absorbed by Phantom like all of the actual hits I was making.

The Fight log was like 30ish rounds so I didn't want to post the whole thing. But so far that's my understanding of how the weapon works.

Now if it bleed out more and more as the battle went on.. well that'd just be nifty.

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:54 PM EDT

Maybe I am not clear.

Let us say you hit 3 times a round for 500k a round. That would be 300k poison a round.

So the first round you do 300k poison.

Next round you hit again 3 times. Another 300k poison. So should you then do a total of 900k poison damage? 300k the first round + 300k the next round + 300k from the first rounds effects.

The next round you again hit 3 times. Another 300k poison damage = 900k poison damage a round. So round 3 you should do 1.8M poison damage total so far.

And so on?

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] April 2 2012 7:55 PM EDT

no, theres no effect after the current round has passed. so if you do 300k bleed damage that round, it only applies to that round. as far as i can tell anyways.

QBRanger April 2 2012 7:56 PM EDT

AH,

The poison is only for the round you hit in. It does not carry over.

That was my misunderstanding!!

Waldo April 2 2012 8:04 PM EDT

Confirmed Gohan
bleed damage is increased each time you hit and stays static after you stop hitting
note that there are 2 chars named 'zombie' & i am assuming (due to prev posts) that the intended target is taking the bleed; while the PL zombie is taking the weapon damage

Jen scratched zombie [293,395]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (140,772)
Jen glanced off of zombie [201,787]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (90,006)
Jen glanced off of zombie [249,640]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (116,979)

zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (148,964)

Jen glanced off of zombie [179,963]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (77,197)
Jen scratched zombie [220,215]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (100,075)
Jen scratched zombie [263,471]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (122,974)

zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (281,693)

Jen scratched zombie [247,173]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (113,444)
Jen glanced off of zombie [255,245]
-zombie absorbs damage [36,986]
-zombie's Guardian Angel smote Jen (119,717)

zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)
R.I.P. Jen


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)


zombie bleeds from his deep wounds (382,176)
R.I.P. zombie

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2012 8:05 PM EDT

bleeds and poisons are traditionally damage over time or dots so that was my understanding as well.

woot for change, btw! ; )

Waldo April 2 2012 8:06 PM EDT

Correction:
bleed damage is increased each ROUND and stays static after you stop hitting

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 8:11 PM EDT

^ Yep that's it, to further prove that the "So-and-So Bleeds from his deep wounds." is just a place holder text to show the total damage done from Bleeding up to that point.

Unfair stumbled swinging at Dovahkiin
Hax rent Dovahkiin [399,367]
Hax draws strength from his weapon! [157238]
Cheater burns from the flames surrounding Dovahkiin (305,033)
Unfair absorbs damage [305,033]

Dovahkiin burns from the flames surrounding Shenanigans (1,250,673)
Dovahkiin bruised Cheater for no damage
> Dovahkiin bleeds from his deep wounds (79,873)
Unfair regenerated 137,632 HP

Unfair swung wildly at Dovahkiin
Hax's blow was dodged by Dovahkiin
Cheater burns from the flames surrounding Dovahkiin (431,216)
Unfair absorbs damage [431,216]

Dovahkiin burns from the flames surrounding Shenanigans (1,215,225)
Dovahkiin bruised Cheater for no damage
Dovahkiin tapped Cheater for no damage
> Dovahkiin bleeds from his deep wounds (79,873)
Unfair regenerated 137,632 HP

Cheater burns from the flames surrounding Dovahkiin (284,204)
Unfair absorbs damage [284,204]
Dovahkiin burns from the flames surrounding Shenanigans (1,258,155)
Dovahkiin tapped Cheater for no damage
Dovahkiin bruised Cheater for no damage
> Dovahkiin bleeds from his deep wounds (79,873)

My only hit on this minion was once for 399,367 ( x 20% = 79873.4)

If you went through the whole fight you'd end up with the same results regardless of the minion, the bleed out damage will always be 20% of the damage dealt during a round, and the number will only stack as rounds continue as a way to know how much you've done in total this way.

It looks misleading I know, but originally NS had the number hidden, and we couldn't figure out exactly what the Bleeding was doing at all.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 8:14 PM EDT

Correction I guess it can outright kill, I haven't run into a circumstance where the bleeding dealt the final blow. I retract that statement then.

Waldo April 2 2012 8:16 PM EDT

Its not a placeholder for the total damage done by bleeding. It is the amount done that round...otherwise zombie would not have died. The only damage dealer was Jen. The bleed killed zombie after rounds and rounds of 300k damage

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 2 2012 8:18 PM EDT

^ Hence why I retracted that statement ;) Good to know, as like I said, I haven't seen the bleed out damage outright kill, that was the first time anyone showed me that result.

Waldo April 2 2012 8:19 PM EDT

Meaning ES does stack bleed damage. Each rounds that it hits adds 20% of the damage to the bleed/round amount. Think of it as opening the wound further or creating a new one to go with the old. lol

Waldo April 2 2012 8:21 PM EDT

and xeno I was typing my reply when you posted (both times actually) so I hadn't seen your retraction :)

I am just glad I could help, I haven't really had a chance to get involved in a strat talk before :)

TH3 C0113CT0R April 2 2012 8:25 PM EDT

Xeno, so you have to HIT for the poison to do damage? even after you have hit once? shouldn't a poison do damage for a set amount of rounds even if you miss after 1 connection..

I mean poison acts once its ingested for a time period not for the time your chewing and swallowing only..

QBRanger April 2 2012 8:29 PM EDT

So the amount see in the bleeding line in () is the damage dealt that round or total damage up to that point?

I think it is the former.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 8:31 PM EDT

Damage dealt that round. Which is the total of each rounds individual bleed damage combined.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2012 8:32 PM EDT

Also, we're only considering boosting the VB or removing vorpal from the ES.

I think the easiest way to balance is just reduce the poison from 20% to something smaller to make it more balanced.

Underage Drinking April 2 2012 9:22 PM EDT

Im all for removing the Vorpalness of the ES and leaving 20% Bleeding or <

Godpanda April 2 2012 10:30 PM EDT

I think we've been a bit quick to label this as OP. The weapon still has some serious drawbacks. We could at least wait a week or two before we consider nerfing something that used to be useless.

Lord Bob April 2 2012 10:31 PM EDT

Meaning ES does stack bleed damage. Each rounds that it hits adds 20% of the damage to the bleed/round amount. Think of it as opening the wound further or creating a new one to go with the old.
So Nightstrike implemented my exact idea from the Equipment Suggestions thread (http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003Hz2 ), called it bleed instead of poison, and gave it to the Stiletto instead of the Dagger?

Awesome.

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 10:33 PM EDT

For the record, LB, I read your post after implementing it :P

That said, the general idea has been tossed around here for a couple years.

The same thing actually happened with some recent post of Ranger's. I remember thinking something, then read his next post, and it was the same. I think it was somewhere in Josh's thread.

AdminNightStrike April 2 2012 10:34 PM EDT

Also,

Yeah, NOW you start to make a bunch of cool changes.

Better find a better goal :)

stabilo April 3 2012 2:20 AM EDT

here some big data ;)


Data for equal NW:
A Morgul-Hammer [84x10000] (+200)
vs.
An Elven Stiletto [55x8728] (+200)
--------------------------------------------------
A Morgul-Hammer [84x10000] (+200)
against Wraithlin
(T85) Tunck defeated Wraithlin after 24 rounds of combat

T burns from the flames surrounding Death (382,126)
Decay takes damage from his own Decay (4,227)!
Decay's Decay hit T for no damage
Gruk scratched T [9,891]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [1978]
Gruk glanced off of T [11,586]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [2317]

T crushed Decay [1,371,839]
T draws strength from his weapon! [9130]
T pulverized Decay [732,006]
T crushed Decay [678,076]
T pulverized Decay [973,137]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (374,946)
Decay takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
Decay's Decay hit T for no damage
Gruk scratched T [9,674]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [1934]
Gruk glanced off of T [8,525]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [1705]
Turok swung wildly at T
R.I.P. Decay

T beat Gruk [276,504]
Turok absorbs damage [276,504]
T fractured Gruk [482,655]
Turok absorbs damage [482,655]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (348,378)
Gruk scratched T [15,851]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [3170]
Turok's blow was dodged by T

--------------------------------------------------
A Morgul-Hammer [84x10000] (+200)
against FUSE
(T85) Tunck defeated FUSE after 14 rounds of combat

Hal hit T [208,261]
Hal shot T [184,013]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [568,758]

T crunched Buckphi [1,389,750]
T draws strength from his weapon! [277950]
T beat Buckphi [893,128]
T draws strength from his weapon! [178625]
T beat Buckphi [949,378]
T draws strength from his weapon! [189875]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [616,087]

T fractured Buckphi [704,485]
T draws strength from his weapon! [140897]
T crunched Buckphi [718,781]
T draws strength from his weapon! [143756]
T fractured Buckphi [714,218]
T draws strength from his weapon! [142843]
Hal shot T [185,355]
Hal hit T [199,275]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [362,282]

T crunched Buckphi [949,067]
T draws strength from his weapon! [189813]
T fractured Buckphi [1,113,112]
T draws strength from his weapon! [222622]
T pulverized Buckphi [1,000,632]
T draws strength from his weapon! [77105]
T pulverized Buckphi [878,080]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [365,560]
R.I.P. Buckphi

--------------------------------------------------
A Morgul-Hammer [84x10000] (+200)
against Koyaanisqatsi
(T85) Tunck defeated Koyaanisqatsi after 17 rounds of combat

T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (447,365)
Microchips swung wildly at T
Cloudscape bruised T with Infinity Blade [13,396]
Prophecies overshot T
The Grid stumbled swinging at T

T crushed Microchips [1,809,390]
The Grid absorbs damage [1,399,320]
T draws strength from his weapon! [234043]
T crushed Microchips [937,040]
The Grid absorbs damage [937,040]
T crushed Microchips [661,253]
The Grid absorbs damage [661,253]
T pulverized Microchips [853,184]
The Grid absorbs damage [853,184]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (415,374)
Microchips scratched T for no damage
Cloudscape tapped T with Infinity Blade [8,520]
The Grid stumbled swinging at T
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP

T crushed Microchips [1,032,256]
The Grid absorbs damage [1,032,256]
T pulverized Microchips [748,918]
The Grid absorbs damage [748,918]
T pulverized Microchips [934,844]
The Grid absorbs damage [934,844]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (508,146)
Microchips mistimed his attack at T
Cloudscape bruised T with Infinity Blade [7,669]
Prophecies's shot ricocheted near T
The Grid's blow was dodged by T
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP

T crushed Microchips [842,930]
The Grid absorbs damage [842,930]
T pulverized Microchips [836,166]
The Grid absorbs damage [836,166]
T crushed Microchips [775,001]
T draws strength from his weapon! [53515]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (525,789)
Microchips swung wildly at T
Cloudscape tapped T with Infinity Blade [11,172]
The Grid swung wildly at T
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP
R.I.P. Microchips

--------------------------------------------------
An Elven Stiletto [55x8728] (+200)
against Wraithlin
(T85) Tunck defeated Wraithlin after 15 rounds of combat

T eviscerated Decay [706,921]
Turok absorbs damage [706,921]
T dislimbed Decay [422,186]
Turok absorbs damage [422,186]
T eviscerated Decay [406,934]
Turok absorbs damage [406,934]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (322,678)
Decay takes damage from his own Decay (4,227)!
Decay's Decay hit T for no damage
Gruk glanced off of T [10,698]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [2139]
Decay bleeds from his deep wounds (307,207)
Turok regenerated 135,746 HP
R.I.P. Decay

T sliced into Gruk [373,078]
Turok absorbs damage [373,078]
T carved into Gruk [409,816]
Turok absorbs damage [409,816]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (385,055)
Gruk glanced off of T [10,179]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [2035]
Gruk glanced off of T [9,220]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [1844]
Turok swung wildly at T
Gruk bleeds from his deep wounds (156,578)
Turok regenerated 135,746 HP

T sliced into Gruk [400,031]
Turok absorbs damage [400,031]
T clove Gruk [287,679]
Turok absorbs damage [287,679]
T clove Gruk [435,054]
Turok absorbs damage [435,054]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (427,103)
Gruk glanced off of T [15,037]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [3007]
Turok's blow was dodged by T
Gruk bleeds from his deep wounds (381,129)
Turok regenerated 135,746 HP

T gashed Gruk [386,364]
Turok absorbs damage [386,364]
T sliced into Gruk [322,107]
Turok absorbs damage [322,107]
T gashed Gruk [275,211]
Turok absorbs damage [275,211]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (277,344)
Gruk glanced off of T [15,723]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [3144]
Turok mistimed his attack at T
Gruk bleeds from his deep wounds (577,864)
Turok regenerated 135,746 HP

T decapitated Gruk [326,058]
Turok absorbs damage [326,058]
T eviscerated Gruk [366,375]
Turok absorbs damage [366,375]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (359,704)
Gruk glanced off of T [10,017]
Gruk draws strength from his weapon! [2003]
Turok mistimed his attack at T
Gruk bleeds from his deep wounds (716,350)
Turok regenerated 135,746 HP
R.I.P. Gruk

T hacked Turok [463,394]
T draws strength from his weapon! [162593]
T dislimbed Turok [528,542]
T draws strength from his weapon! [46678]
T eviscerated Turok [381,253]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (275,444)
Turok scratched T [34]
Turok bleeds from his deep wounds (274,636)
Turok regenerated 135,746 HP
R.I.P. Turok

T glanced off of Death [412,947]
T draws strength from his weapon! [153794]
T scratched Death [382,260]
T draws strength from his weapon! [141460]
T sliced into Death [575,146]
T draws strength from his weapon! [197635]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (334,558)
Death bleeds from his deep wounds (274,070)

T rent Death [522,120]
T draws strength from his weapon! [215385]
T chopped Death [377,951]
T draws strength from his weapon! [118295]
T chopped Death [501,586]
T draws strength from his weapon! [209512]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (329,427)
Death bleeds from his deep wounds (554,401)

T sliced into Death [462,041]
T draws strength from his weapon! [181544]
T rent Death [535,919]
T draws strength from his weapon! [186085]
T burns from the flames surrounding Death (368,179)
Death bleeds from his deep wounds (753,992)
R.I.P. Death


--------------------------------------------------
An Elven Stiletto [55x8728] (+200)
against FUSE
(T85) Tunck defeated FUSE after 14 rounds of combat

T rived Buckphi [1,085,903]
T scratched Buckphi [484,988]
T scratched Buckphi [494,691]
T scratched Buckphi [578,585]
Hal hit T [258,241]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [576,017]
Buckphi bleeds from his deep wounds (528,832)

T scratched Buckphi [463,407]
T glanced off of Buckphi [447,308]
T scratched Buckphi [428,380]
T chopped Buckphi [568,851]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [451,621]
Buckphi bleeds from his deep wounds (910,420)

T chopped Buckphi [462,852]
T chopped Buckphi [410,359]
T lacerated Buckphi [629,140]
T lacerated Buckphi [604,591]
Hal shot T [233,159]
Hal shot T [172,109]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [684,483]
Buckphi bleeds from his deep wounds (1,331,807)
R.I.P. Buckphi

T carved into Hal [597,693]
T carved into Hal [399,334]
T gashed Hal [473,457]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [354,594]
Hal bleeds from his deep wounds (294,095)

T chopped Hal [413,533]
T rent Hal [529,445]
T eviscerated Hal [565,127]
Hal shot T [172,011]
Hal hit T [176,978]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [485,104]
Hal bleeds from his deep wounds (595,715)
R.I.P. Hal

T chopped Oldaus Vicken [617,088]
T rent Oldaus Vicken [462,684]
T hacked Oldaus Vicken [437,547]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [330,858]
Oldaus Vicken bleeds from his deep wounds (303,462)

T hacked Oldaus Vicken [558,015]
T lacerated Oldaus Vicken [538,534]
T hacked Oldaus Vicken [505,272]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [396,434]
Oldaus Vicken bleeds from his deep wounds (623,825)

T decapitated Oldaus Vicken [602,437]
T decapitated Oldaus Vicken [574,250]
T decapitated Oldaus Vicken [564,583]
T dislimbed Oldaus Vicken [411,650]
Oldaus Vicken takes damage from his own Magic Missile (41,298)!
Oldaus Vicken's Magic Missile hit T [475,299]
Oldaus Vicken bleeds from his deep wounds (1,054,408)
R.I.P. Oldaus Vicken


--------------------------------------------------
An Elven Stiletto [55x8728] (+200)
against Koyaanisqatsi
(T85) Tunck defeated Koyaanisqatsi after 15 rounds of combat
Physical

T decapitated Microchips [1,034,357]
The Grid absorbs damage [1,034,357]
T eviscerated Microchips [559,325]
The Grid absorbs damage [559,325]
T dislimbed Microchips [599,204]
The Grid absorbs damage [599,204]
T eviscerated Microchips [539,827]
The Grid absorbs damage [539,827]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (683,381)
Microchips's blow was dodged by T
Cloudscape bruised T with Infinity Blade [14,407]
Prophecies's shot flew past T
The Grid's blow was dodged by T
Microchips bleeds from his deep wounds (546,541)
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP
R.I.P. Microchips

T decapitated Prophecies [437,586]
The Grid absorbs damage [437,586]
T decapitated Prophecies [438,354]
The Grid absorbs damage [438,354]
T dislimbed Prophecies [490,404]
The Grid absorbs damage [490,404]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (401,650)
Cloudscape mistimed his attack at T
The Grid mistimed his attack at T
Prophecies bleeds from his deep wounds (273,267)
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP
R.I.P. Prophecies

T scratched The Grid [429,588]
T draws strength from his weapon! [148428]
T rent The Grid [501,664]
T draws strength from his weapon! [150022]
T scratched The Grid [336,367]
T draws strength from his weapon! [140494]
T clove The Grid [405,837]
T draws strength from his weapon! [152606]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (612,425)
Cloudscape bruised T with Infinity Blade [13,033]
The Grid swung wildly at T
The Grid bleeds from his deep wounds (334,689)
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP

T sliced into The Grid [523,426]
T draws strength from his weapon! [162859]
T gashed The Grid [360,505]
T draws strength from his weapon! [125651]
T chopped The Grid [326,868]
T draws strength from his weapon! [110647]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (554,349)
Cloudscape tapped T with Infinity Blade [9,907]
The Grid's blow was dodged by T
The Grid bleeds from his deep wounds (576,848)
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP

T carved into The Grid [391,404]
T draws strength from his weapon! [139917]
T eviscerated The Grid [432,103]
T draws strength from his weapon! [47362]
T eviscerated The Grid [509,806]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (466,873)
Cloudscape mistimed his attack at T
The Grid stumbled swinging at T
The Grid bleeds from his deep wounds (843,509)
The Grid regenerated 214,688 HP
R.I.P. The Grid

T sliced into Cloudscape [550,222]
T draws strength from his weapon! [170549]
T glanced off of Cloudscape [372,687]
T draws strength from his weapon! [127135]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (547,661)
Cloudscape's shield flashes! [83,697]
Cloudscape tapped T with Infinity Blade [22,129]
Cloudscape bleeds from his deep wounds (184,581)

T sliced into Cloudscape [563,890]
T draws strength from his weapon! [171858]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (643,198)
Cloudscape's shield flashes! [51,117]
Cloudscape bruised T with Infinity Blade [17,835]
Cloudscape bleeds from his deep wounds (297,359)

T carved into Cloudscape [550,335]
T draws strength from his weapon! [200475]
T rived Cloudscape [589,926]
T draws strength from his weapon! [192345]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (432,074)
Cloudscape mistimed his attack at T
Cloudscape bleeds from his deep wounds (525,411)

T decapitated Cloudscape [463,401]
T draws strength from his weapon! [26270]
T burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (522,221)
Cloudscape's shield flashes! [145,438]
Cloudscape bruised T with Infinity Blade [55,485]
Cloudscape bleeds from his deep wounds (618,091)
R.I.P. Cloudscape

stabilo April 3 2012 2:32 AM EDT

Oh, and here a little shorter:

Data for equal NW:
A Morgul-Hammer [84x10000] (+200)
(T85) Tunck defeated Wraithlin after 24 rounds of combat
(T85) Tunck defeated FUSE after 14 rounds of combat
(T85) Tunck defeated Koyaanisqatsi after 17 rounds of combat
vs.
An Elven Stiletto [55x8728] (+200)
(T85) Tunck defeated Wraithlin after 15 rounds of combat
(T85) Tunck defeated FUSE after 14 rounds of combat
(T85) Tunck defeated Koyaanisqatsi after 15 rounds of combat

so actually it looks like quite ok powered, neither over nor underpowered. Most fights take equal amount of rounds to kill, the elven stiletto is better in some cases but the morg drains live.

so to me this looks very good. nice job!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:19 AM EDT

It is the amount done that round

Good god, that's OP.

First round you hit you do 20% extra damage. Let's call this 'a'. Next round you hit you do 20%+a extra damage. And so on.

And this lasts until the target dies. Even if attacking minion with the ES dies.

That's hell OP.

I'd make a 4 minion GS team with 4 ES's and stack bleeding damage...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:25 AM EDT

I mean, let's say I hit for 100,000 damage with my ES, and I land 3 hits per round.

First round I deal 60,000 Bleed Damage.
Second round I deal 120,000 Bleed Damage.
Third Round I deal 180,000 Bleed Damage.

By the 5th round, I'm dealing 300,000 Bleed Damage (basically an extra 100% total damage) for every single round after, even if I'm killed.

And this damage isn't effected by PL or GA (and potentially not even AC).

And this *isn't* OP?

Godpanda April 3 2012 7:36 AM EDT

You're forgetting two important things, GL.

1) The damage DOES have to ramp up. Which means teams with low HP and high damage are going to do very well against the ES.

2) The damage resets everytime a minion dies, making this weapon weak to teams with multiple weapons.

For instance, if a minion has a million HP, a person with a Morg is just going to kill it round one. A person with an ES may have to wait 2-3 rounds to do it. So if there is a SG minion in the back going at it, who knows?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:39 AM EDT

Those don't make it weak in the slightest...

Low HP? You die.

Multie minions? Weapons are the same versus them.

This weapon flat out does far too much damage per hit.

A compound extra 20% for every round?

What happens if all your minions, or your last surviving minons are all hit by an ES, but you kill your opponent.

You bleed out and stalemate, as there's *nothing* you can do to stop the bleed.

It shouldn't stack.

It shouldn't last until the minion dies.

An extra 20% damage is a good enough buff.

This stacking extra round to round damage is far too over the top. I'm actually surprised more of us haven't gone ZOMG to it already...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:41 AM EDT

Imagine an AoI Tank with a ES backed by a PL/TSA wall.

How do you stop the ES ramping up?

With this change, the EXBow can't ever be fixed. It's needed to stop this weapon. ELBows be damned! lol

Godpanda April 3 2012 7:45 AM EDT

There's no way, GL. There's no way you're going to sit here and say that a multi minion team running relatively low HP loses as fast to this team as it does to a Morg, for instance.

Godpanda April 3 2012 7:45 AM EDT

I mean, by your logic, CoC in it's current form is fine. It's not. this weapon is just new, but nothing I've seen makes me think it does so much more damage than anything else.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:46 AM EDT

If both the Morg and the ES hit for the same damage?

Money isn't a limiting factor.

It never has been...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:47 AM EDT

At the *very* least, if you keep the stacking damage, it needs to end on any round the ES doesn't land a hit.

It needs to.

Otherwise, the ES is the most overpowered, broken item to ever have been introduced.

LoL.

I actually feel that strongly about it. I really do.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:48 AM EDT

Come on.

When does CoC deal damage after the mage has died?

When does the damage you can inflict with *any* DD compund from round to round?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:51 AM EDT

If you want the ES to deal compund damage, and *have* to ramp up to be effective, then remove/vastly reduce it's 'direct' damage.

Have it hit for 100% damaage, but only deal 20% directly as a hit (reduced by armour, PL, GA etc etc), but deal 20% as the stacking bleed.

(Change the numbrs to fit balance)

So it hits for a tiny direct amount, and you must ramp it up over the rounds to get a decent output form it.

That would be the way to make compound damage work.

Godpanda April 3 2012 7:53 AM EDT

ARe you not looking at the damage? THe morg is doing at least 30% more damage per hit than the ES is doing + VA.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2012 7:53 AM EDT

Thanks NS! It's been ages since I've seen people discuss whether an item was OP or not.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:55 AM EDT

Bump the ES to x10000 then compare.

Who cares if on a hit a Morg does 30% extra damage.

It will take, what 2 round for the ES to pass that?

Round 1
Morg: 130
ES: 100 + 20

Round 2
Morg 130 (260 total)
ES: 100 + 40 (260 total)

Win for the Morg? Not unless you require it's 20% leech.

Waldo April 3 2012 7:57 AM EDT

GL just for the record if you kill all the minions of a team the fight is over regardless of bleed. ie you will not stalemate just because the losing team makes you bleed

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:58 AM EDT

That's good to know. ;)

Still, allowing a minion to conitnue to deal damage after it's dead, is a first for CB, and with no way to stop/remove the damage, I don't think is really a good thing.

Waldo April 3 2012 7:58 AM EDT

oh yeah call them equal, but only if you overlook the Morg's ability. lol

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 7:59 AM EDT

We'll we're overlooking the ES vorpal, so why not. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 8:06 AM EDT

And LL can be got from an ED. There's no other way to get compound damage that lasts after death in cb.

Godpanda April 3 2012 8:07 AM EDT

GL, you make it seem like a NEW thing in CB is definitely bad BECAUSE it's new?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 8:13 AM EDT

New things are great.

The ES with a flat 20% increase to damage is great. And elegent. I said so above.

New things that are silly and broken are bad.

Like compound damage that lasts after death, with no counter/reduction/removal.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 3 2012 8:14 AM EDT

ES having this plus vorpal is rather much but taking out the vorpal should put it near the right level likely. It all depends on the upgrade costs and damage output comparison then.

Godpanda April 3 2012 8:14 AM EDT

You have no evidence whatsoever that this weapon is too strong! You've created an on paper argument which is only too strong if someone takes for granted that bypassing common staples is a bad thing.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 8:17 AM EDT

What evidence would you like?

The game mechanics of compound damage is silly.

It needs vastly more checks if you want compound damage to go live. Like 1% of total damage per round and not 20.

Do you think that allowing 100% extra damage (which isn't countered by anything) after 5 rounds is balanced?

And this remains for ever, after death?

Godpanda April 3 2012 8:18 AM EDT

YES. I really think that's fine. It's on one minion and the earliest it matches the damage of any weapon in the game right now is round 8-9. At best. And only on the front minion. It gets reset everytime a target dies.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 8:19 AM EDT

8-9? How? LoL.

And one minion? It's on every minion that uses an ES...

Godpanda April 3 2012 8:23 AM EDT

Ranged rounds ; P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2012 8:24 AM EDT

Er, donno what to say to that. ;)

How many rounds does it take for a BoTH to match an ELBow?

stabilo April 3 2012 8:56 AM EDT

dunno, but maybe lots of you have overseen my fight-log above?

It directly compares x10000 morg to equal nw elven stiletto.

.. you'll see that both end up more or less equal, so it's not really overpowered _and_ it's not really underpowered, which both would be bad.

and yes, the elven stiletto _does_ more damage alltogether, but it doesn't give you any livedrain, just as the BoTH does more damage but doesn't give you any health back.

we should just get used to it that this is one of the big 7 ;)

stabilo April 3 2012 8:57 AM EDT

oh, and not to foreget, I _did_ switch back to morg as it fits better in my strat!

Quyen April 3 2012 10:12 AM EDT

the BoTH does give HP back.. I believe it's the BoNE u mean :)

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] April 3 2012 10:51 AM EDT

I think BreakTheRules is right. Saying the weapon is op before having it out for more than a day is kind of silly. Give it a week or two too see what becomes of it.

The base damage on it is quite low and it requires the user to stay alive for a long time to get the stacks up. The strategy needed to carry out the ES effectively could be compared to an RoBF strategy. However, weapons in general have a lot of counters, and they would be require to build very defensively to last a long time. This would weaken their offense.

In the end, it would probably be better to just use an RoBF.

QBRanger April 3 2012 10:52 AM EDT

I think the question a few of us have is that the ES now has 2 properties when it had 0 before.

Vorpal and bleeding.

The vorpal ability combined with the bleeding has basically made the VB a paperweight.

It would be nice to be able to see how the bleeding alone does without the superimposed vorpal to determine if it is too powerful. Since now it is in the code and can be added to any weapon.

Whether or not the entirety of ES is overpowered will of course, take time to discover. Just like the original version of the VB was far too overpowered.

But it is nice to have these discussions again not recycling the same old "the exbow is just too stupid an item".

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] April 3 2012 10:57 AM EDT

I always found the VB to be a paperweight. The base damage on it seems to low for the amount of armor pen it has. It would seem just using an ELS would be overall better if not always better.

Of course, I have no real evidence for this. It is just the impression I have gotten from the VB when I have used it a few times in tourneys.

AdminNightStrike April 3 2012 11:05 AM EDT

when it had 0 before.

1

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2012 11:06 AM EDT

The VB is a must have item if you want to beat certain teams... the ES is a much more rounded weapon as far as I can see. 20% bonus damage makes up for the low base quickly.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2012 11:07 AM EDT

An Elven Stiletto [55x30215] (+200)

now lets see what this baby can do...

QBRanger April 3 2012 11:12 AM EDT

Did the ES have vorpal before?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2012 11:13 AM EDT

yep, it was a cheap mans VB

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 3 2012 11:24 AM EDT

I have to say I agree with EoD. IMO the ES seems to be better suited for defensively oriented teams running mini-tanks, that want to get into melee and survive as long as possible while whittling their enemy away.

My shortest battle on my T-char is 10 rounds, and that's only because I'm using an RoBF as well. The ES alone will not cut it as a sole damage source, unless you are like novice with a crazy huge melee weapon.. and well everything else he has on construct.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2012 11:28 AM EDT

The bleed compounding and getting around PL is really, really, really nice

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] April 3 2012 11:29 AM EDT

^One correction, I keep forgetting Nov went back to using the RoBF, so he's got two sources of damage going on :P

Lord Bob April 3 2012 11:50 AM EDT

For the record, LB, I read your post after implementing it
Aww..

*pouts like a child*

That said, the general idea has been tossed around here for a couple years.
I know. I've been tossing it around for a couple of years. *grin*

QBRanger April 3 2012 4:53 PM EDT

IIRC, GW also wanted a poison attribute on weapons and has been advocating this for years. I think he was the very first to put the idea out there.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] April 3 2012 6:16 PM EDT

I think decay comboing with bleeding would be cool, either adding extra dmg or killing the bleeding decayed minion in 5 turns or something.

QBRanger April 3 2012 7:19 PM EDT

So like a delayed FoD? You just have to hit 1 time?

Seems even more powerful than the dreaded exbow.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] April 3 2012 9:00 PM EDT

I don't think it would be as OP as you think. It would require both to hit the same minion so DBs and AoI would both make it difficult. It would also happen in round 10 at the earliest, where most combats are over before round 10.

Also, that was just a secondary suggestion, no comments about decay increasing the bleeding dmg?

QBRanger April 3 2012 9:47 PM EDT

Let us just see how powerful the bleeding damage is before adding or removing stuff.

Zenai April 3 2012 11:20 PM EDT

ES having this plus vorpal is rather much but taking out the vorpal should put it near the right level likely.


Why not just lower the Vorpal ability a bit? Say maybe at half of what it currently is now as an example.

AdminNightStrike April 4 2012 8:29 AM EDT

It's a lot easier to add or remove vorpal than it is to have different vorpal weapons use different vorpal rates.

Zenai April 4 2012 9:02 AM EDT

Wow ok well that thanks for letting us know. So if this is the case how about a buff to the VB?

I know pushing the bar and all but gotta ask.......lol

QBOddBird April 6 2012 7:32 PM EDT

Wow...if this is what happens when I leave, I should take a vacation from CB more often. Nice changes! :D
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