bringing back the thought of dual wielding! 2 (in General)

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 12:18 PM EST

Now this is not a way to battle Admins but rather that I believe Neo Japan had a rather good idea. Without the nay saying from the start how about you discuss ways to actually make this better. We have been through the rungs of what we believe is a fault of whatever again and again there are a plethora of threads full of them. However I rarely see a new way to look at an old thing which is a major point to why there was an argument on the other thread. Stop cutting people's throats just because you know the old mind sets let this idea bloom.

Not one time did I see anyone attempting to actually improve on his idea but rather try to tear it apart. Anyone think of turning BL into an Amulet like Junction was then introduce this as a replacement? No it was just torn apart without out thinking it through by looking at it in another light. Now let's attempt this again the way it should have been in the Twilight Era of CB. We need everything we can get with a positive air, even if it is shot down by Jon/NS it might spark an idea for something else that can be implemented.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 12:19 PM EST

Neo Japan[Hidden Agenda]February 19 12:02 PM EST

seriously, I don't think it's over powered. You lose the ability to have a shield, so either losing good defense, or st from a bom, etc... Need to use skill so you lose BL or Archery, both damage increasing losses.. Finally, Cash sink, because you have to invest in not one, but 2 weapons. finally, if must, have second weapon be at %50-%75 damage, because of dominant and non dominant hands.

the second weapon could attack in one of 2 ways, single attack type, just with more damage, or it could be another attack within the round. The PTH will be at %50-%75, so it won't hit as much as the other weapon, so its not doubling the amount of hits (if both were identical weapons). single handed weapons only.

Dex requirement relative to ST. to reach 100% efficiency to even got the 50%-75% from the other weapon and 100% from first weapon, and maybe even so much invested into the skill itself. so XP sink.

Why would you want it? More damage, without BL defense loss. dual chakram, dual BoT, one chakram and els? The thought of having a sweet dual wielding minion.

I know its been shot down before, but we need more stuff, and new things here. I'm also for special bonus's for full armored minions, such as all elven, including sword and bow.

Neo Japan[Hidden Agenda]February 19 1:21 PM EST

ok, take away some of the penalties I introduced. I was just trying to make it fair. Add some spice to this game.

Neo Japan[Hidden Agenda]February 19 1:23 PM EST

oooh, encumbrance, ok, so you need soo much dex in comparison to ST, but also training DW skill more increases encumbrance greatly. will have to work out some details to prevent mages and enchanters from doing this. encumbrance problem solved, and not overpowered because its an XP sink.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 12:30 PM EST

If it was a straight train like AP. there would have to be some form of % added to encumbrance like 50% gain to current encumbrance. I think the idea I proposed could be viable. The argument here is just that this skill would HEAVILY be pointed towards USD spenders. The upkeep alone would be upwards of 250mil per weapon in the top 10.

The possibility of replacing BL with this and making BL an amulet could be a possibility to help battle the amount of NW needed to make this plausible.

Neo Japan February 21 2013 12:33 PM EST

I've done a little research and learned more about BL since. I didn't know BL didn't have its defense handicap removed. My initial thought was DW would increase your damage without having BL damage penalty, but not overpowered because you lose shield.

Encumbrance solved by making DW increase Encumbrance, and since BL already increases damage by 75%, make DW not increase it by 100%, but still get 100% of second weapon.

I feel like there is too much Cash in CB, so this will sink some of it into people who want to use this strat into their second weapon.

even if it didn't get its full 100%, interesting things like 2 BoT's VA and TSA make for an interesting Char. 80% leach and regeneration. but obviously only useful in Melee, so Ranged could kill him off.

Keep damage at 100%, but penalize PTH by 75% so someone with BL might attack 3 times, but if he switched to DW, he wouldn't hit 6 times, but 2-4. allow chakram in one hand to attack person in the rear with both weapons? or maybe one attack to front minion, one attack to rear.

lots of ideas. first complaint was overpowered, but others I see the its under powered compared to BL, so power it a little more, or equal it to BL, but get benefits from multiple weapons, so DW, seems better, except for the fact that you need to sink $$$ into it.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 12:43 PM EST

It'd have to be stronger in comparison to BL to make the NW sink warranted. Unless you were literally trying to stack VA effect or use a chakram and VB. this skill could also open up tons of new weApon possibilities. The balancing issue is just making sure that using 2 smaller 1 handed weapons isn't more viable than a huge MH/BonE with BL. This skill could definitely be the exact thing that could take us out of a Mage blender seeing as most the top ten doesn't use physical damage as a main damage dealer.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 12:49 PM EST

Melee damage not physical. The only high NW melee weapons seem to be MoDs

IPoop February 21 2013 1:29 PM EST


Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 21 2013 1:43 PM EST

Do we really want something like this implemented? It blatantly favors heavy USD users while at the same time creating a nooby trap.

Any free players that used it, unless they did some serious farming for 3-5 years, would benefit more from BL.

As for DW, can you please explain exactly how you want the effect part of the weapon to work. I assume effects would be independently applied with its respective weapon. Yet, there has been talk of blending effects or combining. This doesn't make sense. If I attack with a magically imbue sword which steals life, it wouldn't (and shouldn't) also proc my armor penetration from my other magically imbue sword.

P.S. The idea of making BL an amulet would allow for DW BL warriors. These teams would be unstoppable USD users that would push F2P users into mages as they would never be able to compete.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 1:55 PM EST

I completely agree with EoD the biggest problem with this is the favor to USD users. If we can't prevent that I can't see this ever going into effect. The BL amulet was just an idea that Zenai had mentioned but that would make a 200% increase in damage almost.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 1:56 PM EST

IPoop: PG even in Acronyms so it should be LMFBO....Laughing My Freaking Butt Off, just in case you tried to misconstrue it. ;-)

EoD it was a suggestion to get the creative juices flowing not that this absolutely HAD to be the deal. Besides if LIMITED properly it wouldn't favor USD any more than you with your Mega ES/ExBow Strat or me with my Super Mega SoD/DB Strat. There is still ENCUMBERANCE to help limit this to begin with. Maybe Limit DW users to No Ranged or High Penalties Ranged Weapons. Hell 1/2 their ENC or something of that nature. Geeze I thought this up on the fly and you couldn't do the same?

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 1:58 PM EST

The effects would work with each weapon not stack so you could life sap while adding a bleeding effect. At least this is what I'm thinking everyone means.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 21 2013 2:01 PM EST

That is what I thought Dan. But statements like "allow chakram in one hand to attack person in the rear with both weapons?" made me wonder otherwise.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 2:09 PM EST

I agree that each weapon should keep their own effects unless they are severely finished or something. Just my opinion though, maybe there would be a way to balance something of his nature that I cannot see.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 2:10 PM EST


Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 21 2013 2:29 PM EST

"There is still ENCUMBERANCE to help limit this to begin with. Maybe Limit DW users to No Ranged or High Penalties Ranged Weapons. Hell 1/2 their ENC or something of that nature. Geeze I thought this up on the fly and you couldn't do the same?"

Yes, implementing such limits would balance it. But then it once again leads to the question that no one can answer.

How is this different/better to BL?

Losing a range weapon, shield, and being limited with ENC and CBD, why bother using it? Even bigger question, why use our very limited coding time for its implementation? All we would gain is two independent weapons which would be able to apply different effects. But how important is this really? With VA and ELS, I theoretically already gain 3 effects: life steal, vorpal, damage that goes through PL.

Let's make this simple. I am going to assume several simple things: DW has no penalties to damage or hit chance, DW does not let you use a shield, DW has a 25% flat penalty to range damage, hit chance, and does not benefit from HoC.

Benefits of DW:
Two independent weapons. This allows for multiple effects from one minion. It increases chance to hit due to dex BTH. It also would accrue double benefits from leadership and ToA.

Cons of DW:
No shield so you are squishy and probably won't last to melee.
Severely hindered range ability.
ENC problems.
Benefits USD users.
Evasion more effective, so harder to guarantee a hit against them.

Now answer this question. Does the idea of DW add enough new quality content to the game to warrant the use of our very limited coding time to introduce it to the game?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 21 2013 2:32 PM EST

More information on DW there than you could ever want. And that's just the first page of a google search.

Of note are the FORS, Bartjan and Grants posts (For those that don't know, Grant is the brother of Jon, the creator of CB).

IPoop February 21 2013 2:45 PM EST

Acronym Definition
LMFAO Laughing My Fat Ass Off
LMFAO Laughing My Friggin' Ass Off (polite form)

due to nephews and kids i have not sworn in while .. sorry potty mind

(though to be honest i go for Laugh my friggin arse off not the two above)

I have to type some more words it seems for this to post as it does not seem to like acronyms

IPoop February 21 2013 3:00 PM EST

and before you call me a liar ... friggin is a word i use regularly
''To: Eliteofdelete Sent: February 18 1:40 PM EST Delivered: February 18 1:51 PM EST
i was exactly the same until a couple of years ago (signed up for the grand daddy of modern obsticle course events - toughguy) and figured i should do a bit of training. Carried on entering silly things so carried on doing the odd bit here and there ... i friggin LOATHE (yes that much i have to shout it lol) running and hadnt done any for 10+ years. The biking i enjoy but its still knackering but its amazing how quickley your legs build up once you start doing it ''

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 3:04 PM EST

Does the idea of DW add enough new quality content to the game to warrant the use of our very limited coding time to introduce it to the game?

Any Idea that has potential does imho. I believe this idea has potential. Which is why I am doing what I am doing.

Time and again I have seen new ideas from players only to see others rip it apart with no true support in any way. Nayab among others have had some extremely good ideas that got knocked by the wayside because someone could point out the holes but refused to add in something to help flesh it out in any way. There is so much negativity it's no wonder we are having problems with things to begin with. Just my observation on things here in CB Land.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 21 2013 3:07 PM EST

"Any Idea that has potential does imho. I believe this idea has potential. Which is why I am doing what I am doing."

Yep, I agree fully with this statement. But I don't see how this idea has any potential. That has been my argument the entire time. Which is why I am doing what I am doing.

There are way better ideas and more important things to accomplish than making a clone of BL.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 3:21 PM EST

It has potential for a LOT of strategy implementations EoD and in all honesty is superior IMHO to BL. However if it makes it better in your eyes to say replace BL with DW then sure why not. Junction was changed from a Skill to an Amulet, SS changed from a Skill to an Enchantetment why can't BL be changed into DW? Making it more physical so to speak with the use of multiple weapons.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 21 2013 4:04 PM EST

I mean sure, make DW the new skill to BL. But you would be hurting tanks. They have a hard enough time getting to melee with a shield. Now you want to take that away. Plus, they would be more susceptible to flat effects to PTH. So evasion, ToA, leadership, etc would affect them more. However, such negative effects are far more prevalent.

Anyways, I am tired of pointing out the flaws of this idea. You can have a fun time theory crafting it however you wish.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 21 2013 4:07 PM EST

Oh, the best part is I am strongly against this idea despite being the one who would benefit most from it. But by all means, make my life easier and implement it ;)

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 5:22 PM EST

But you would be hurting tanks.

Well what if BL was put into Gloves and worked the same way for Melee as BG's do for Archery? Plus since you so aptly pointed out it's hard for tanks to make it to melee well why not add the possibility of deflection to DW? I've seen it in the movies(Think Scorpion King the leader of the horde practiced this skill with 2 swords vs an Arrow) and RL once( it was nuts!)

Pointing flaws is fine EoD but also adding in something that could balance it would be a nice change of pace for once ya know.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 5:34 PM EST

We already covered stacking BL and DW would be super OP. Belegs only add damage because archery only adds PTH if I remember correctly. You would have to lose the ability to use a block (ie a shield or your proposed idea) to keep it balanced or it would become the way things are done for all USD spenders. We all know you could all afford big enough wall armor to nullify all damage.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 6:48 PM EST

I know Dan but I meant for the New Gloves(Insert Name Here) to taper in the same way as BGs do for damage addition. Plus if you really think about it all BL really does is add damage while making you more susceptible to damage yourself. This could carry over to I am sure. Plus ENC for DW could be tapered or Split to 1/2 per hand or just work in the same way as now but lose Ranged on that minion and lower ENC to 75% for that minion. Any number of ideas can be inserted here. You do not have to limit yourself to just one.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 7:18 PM EST

I like the direction of stacking ideas to add a new dynamic to this game. While I still enjoy it it has become stale to most outside users. I mean hell I just started my NCB 4 days ago and I'm already hitting walls due to the lack of opponents giving me 100% Challenge bonus but I digress.

The way DW is being proposed seems only viable at end game due to the high NW requirements so I'm thinking encumbrance isn't the largest issue. If we did away with BL I think DW would have to become a train by xp amount relative to ST and the more xp in the skill the higher the NW allowance. That might work for that balance system. I think the speed bump of being aimed at USD Users could also be conquered by some form of penalty I'm just not sure what. It seems the same 4 of us are chiming in on positive points and I don't see it getting very far like that. This skill doesn't even effect me and I'd like to see at least some form of community initiative!

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 7:51 PM EST

Well it could have a front end boost and a top end penalty Dan which I wouldn't see a problem with. Honestly though I fail to see how it is so much of an issue when Ranged and Melee would be just as bad as a DW Melee. Of course though I can see where it seems to be USD aimed. If Sick one's proposed currency system were to be implemented this really wouldn't be as bad as it first seems. Aside from this let's be honest here it has been USD users like myself that has kept the game together and even helped to pay the bills. We need more my income taxes are taking a brutal beating >.< Now for community many have lost hope or have been blow out of the forums by negativity. It will take a while before most will attempt to chime in due to fear of being/getting flammed.

[Jedi] Danludar February 21 2013 9:51 PM EST

Well Zenai mayb the few of us who are for it can make a plausible formula for this new skill. Present it to NS and te other admins and see where it goes? I'd be willing to dedicate some time to this game since works been slow an I'm on here anyways during it lol. I completely agree and that's why I respect the USD users. I even spend my own money from time to time just usually on p2p transfers of cbd not naming or supporter items

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 21 2013 10:11 PM EST

Well sometimes it is the idea of a few that can affect the mindset of the many in mindset. As long as you are willing I am. Although I cannot speak for Neo Japan I am sure he would he too. It's possible somethingreally good could come from this, maybe not in it's entirety but hey who knows!

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 3:41 PM EST

Now answer this question. Does the idea of DW add enough new quality content to the game to warrant the use of our very limited coding time to introduce it to the game?

If done right EoD yes I most definitely do. All of our recent changes have been minor at best so why not take some time to add something with depth?

Ideas for BL so far:

Turn the Skill into an Enchantment conferred by Gloves. Taper the Damage increase the Same as BG's add for damage to Ranged. Damage return Diminished. (or nullified due to DW Skill being trained like Archery Penalties?)

Lower encumbrance to 75% when the Skill is trained OR Split Encumbrance between each hand.

Flat 15 - 25% Offhand Penalty
DW should be trained at 2/5 of Dex. (2 Weapons so meh it's my

DW confers a modicum of Evasion(stacks with DBs?) or chance to Deflect a ranged Attack. (HoC adds to this capability in the last round of ranged?)

Have heavy Penalty or loss of Ranged Rounds, say instead of the normal 5(6 with HoC) they get one less due to having to draw a second sword.

Half the positive effects from Leadership and ToA. (2 Weapons so meh it's my

Generalized Idea:

Basically set up DW to be the Melee version of Archery(yeah why not everyone have the ability to DW but suck without the skill?) and have BL turned into Gloves that are the melee counterpart of BG's. As a matter of a fact almost everything from the Archery skill could be used as guide lines (so possibly not a truly hard thing to code as a result?) with only minor tweaks for Melee adaptation like Encumbrance Split etc.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 6:02 PM EST

So what I get here is something like this.

Berserkers gloves [6] adds 3% damage to melee per + on enchantment

Dual wield- allows the ability to wield two one handed weapons. Must be trained to 25% of DX to get full benefits. Offhand has a 25% decrease in damage. Also adds (x)% to encumbrance just like UC. Also adds a form of evasion that stacks with DBs/AoI but not linearly. Lose the ability to use ranged weapons and shields.

In this form it could be completely doable. It's the same concept as some of the big tanks with a huge ELB/SoD and a MoD. It's actually slightly weaker than that combo due to no range or splash damage. We might finally have something here. Now is that 3% or whatever it becomes boost to melee damage better than the ST boost from Tulka's?

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 6:28 PM EST

Maybe add in that two handed weapons could be DW but with a penalty like with Crossbows they fire every other round.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 6:51 PM EST

I think a PTH or -(x)% to DX and skills when using 2 handers would make more sense. Every other round would suck but if you could only get triple hits instead if quads it'd make more sense

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 6:59 PM EST

That does sound better!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 6:59 PM EST

Now is that 3% or whatever it becomes boost to melee damage better than the ST boost from Tulka's?

Dan, what do Tulks do?

This is exactly the same issue that BL/DW has.

Either BL on Gloves is better than Tulks and makes them redundant, or BL on gloves isn't as good, and no one uses them over Tulks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 7:01 PM EST

Also adds a form of evasion

And how would that effect UC?

Why every use UC again, when you get ditch the non linear damage for the better linear damage of DW *and* gains UCs 'stichk' of Evasion.

Hell, you don't even need to sacrifice the Body slot for a Gi to get it.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 7:06 PM EST

It would be an Option for adding either Str(Tulks) or Straight Damage(Berserker Gauntlets) GL. Again though as I said with EoD concerning DW taking the Skill Slot of BL so too could Tulks have their Slot taken by Berserker Guantlets. Point here is there should be a shifting of things and just because something has been in the system for a long time doesn't mean it should stay there.

Things have been updated before hell why not this? ES was given Bleed Damage, HxBow was given Vorpal capability. Besides the high AC few actually use TG's for the Str boost like they used to.....hell why not nix the Str TG's give and replace it with a Melee Damage Modifier. There you go a quick easy transition no need to make a new item just modify an existing one.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 7:13 PM EST

Why every use UC again, when you get ditch the non linear damage for the better linear damage of DW *and* gains UCs 'stichk' of Evasion.

Good Point GL. Ppl have had a major issue with UC anyway as it is really powerful at the start but tapers off to useless at the higher levels just like the Toe. As before stated just because something is there and has been there for a long time doesn't mean it should stay. Besides you could also do some minor modifications to UC to make it better or scrap the damned thing and start over and replace it with something that is not as flawed as it's current incarnation.

Just saying there is more than one way to look at things and if you put yourself in a box that will be all you ever know and can work with.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 7:38 PM EST

Yes in this state it does make UC useless but as me and Zenai were discussing the evasion would be a higher amount in ranged that tapers off into melee just like the EH. Personally I think UC would make a much cooler fist type weapon than an actual skills if DW came into play. Sadly were currently discussing killing 4 different old things for new systems so lets take a pause on that.

The argument of berserkers over Tulka's would be its melee only just as some people pick Belegs over Tulka's. if you use both types of damage your best bet would be Tulka's.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 7:42 PM EST

Also the argument for using DW over UC would be xp sink over NW sink. There's always two sides to every situation with this set up and that's where I think it'd stay somewhat balanced. I'm sure at first it'd be either way OP or way crap but we've had many items in this game be like that. Remember the CoBF? My only issue with this is it still would favor USD users in crazy situations like 100% damage nullifying dual wield mega melee wall with the boost to encumbrance there.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 7:50 PM EST

Just to throw it in there again my suggestion was to either Lower overall Encumbrance or to Split it between the hands.

Example Split: You have 100 mil Encumbrance if you were to use only one weapon it would be the full amount. However if you were to use two weapons the it would be 50 Mil per Hand.(or overall Left over encumbrance is 50% per hand)

Regular Example: a Flat Reduction to overall Encumbrance by say 25%.

Note this is open to tweaking or whatnot for the sake of balancing but I am sure you get the point.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 7:51 PM EST

The reason for Belegs is that Ranged is limited (technically you can use Ranged weapons into Melee rounds, but the design is a fraction of the total time Melee has to work).

Thus, the larger boost to direct damage for Ranged, and *only* the Ranged rounds.

If you're using both Melee and Ranged weapons, you'd still not use a Tulks if a Melee direct damage verison was available. As (ENC is only one issue) Melee will be your main damage dealer, with Ranged relegated more to utility. MSK, Speciality XBows.

Probably the only use for Tulks might be for a dedicated SoD minion.

Sadly were currently discussing killing 4 different old things for new systems so lets take a pause on that.

Yup, all to crowbar in a single new skill that already exists. All be it by another name.

That isn't progressive, it's uncessary redesign.

Again, DW boils down to dealing more damage with Melee Weapons. That's it, regardless of how you want to dress it up as 'off-hand', high DEX or Multiple hits.

And we already have a skill that allows you to deal more damage with Melee Weapons.

That's the fundamental issue with DW that no one has, or really is able to, tackle.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 7:57 PM EST

GL: Anything could be tapered to fit. BL is actually like the other items imho outdated and needs to be replaced anyway so again why not? These items, Skills etc have been harped on in some way or another or just plain out not used anymore. Oh and to point something out here Added Damage is NOT DW no matter how you attempt to try an make it fit the idea. Dual Wield by it's very definition means to use two things at one. All BL does is Add damage there is no new dynamic to it and if it is not really all that then why not have the capability to do something else? All of this arguing just to keep crap in the system that is outdated? Why you afraid of change or just want to fight an idea because you don't want it to have a chance to succeed?

Things can be done, just because it is a lot of work doesn't mean good change couldn't come from it.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:02 PM EST

I do 100% agree with you there we're just knocking around ideas at this point to try to make a change around here. I personally just enjoy this think tank were trying to create to maybe get the community together as a whole on something. Every "class" of minion has its uses and I think this one could be a real game changer for the utter staleness that has consumed this game.

The way that we have this idea thought out currently would be a slot between BL and UC. Less damage than BL ( unless we did away with BL as Zenai suggests) but more NW than UC. It seems to me it could fit perfectly by allowing another angle to tanks.

Personally I wouldn't care if we added another spell I'd just like to see something go into effect. I know NS is very busy and with Jon absent its not likely to happen but what was the last thing we actually added that was a serious game changer around here?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:09 PM EST

Well, I'm hoping once the Amulet is working that would be quite interesting. ;)

But Dan, if you put DW in the middle, and make it do less damage than BL with a 2H *and* cost more NW, no one will use it.

Why would you?

I love think tanks and working out new stuff for CB, thrown quite a lot CBs way over the years. ;)

But I'd rather you put the effort into something that would have a place.

Something that would be an actual addition. Not just a rebrand that requires the majority of the current battle mechancis to be redone just to get in.

If that makes sense. ;)

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:12 PM EST

It could do the more theoretical damage than BL with the loss of shields (no SoC flash) and ranged damage. If you have another proposal on something we could discuss I'm all for it!

Is that a hint GL? No fair don't leave us I'm the dark like that!

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 8:14 PM EST

It's not a "Re-Brand" GL if you think about it. DW would be the use of two weapons at once that in and of itself brings in a dynamic that BL with it's added damage simply cannot match. BL let's you add damage while being just as susceptible to damage......that is definitely not the same.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:18 PM EST

It could do the more theoretical damage than BL with the loss of shields (no SoC flash) and ranged damage. If you have another proposal on something we could discuss I'm all for it!

Lose of shields is /meh

Just add back the increased damage taken to BL if you really want it.

As for the interaction with SoC, I'm glad the 'power shield' category was removed. ;)

Why Add a skill to make you deal more damage, but simultaniously remove the ability to deal more damage.

Kind of an oxymoron. ;)

Is that a hint GL? No fair don't leave us I'm the dark like that!

No hint. ;)

Items Overview.

There's an amulet with a quntity of only 1. Been that way for some time due to technicial issues.

I still have high hopes they can be resolved.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 8:22 PM EST

Why Add a skill to make you deal more damage, but simultaniously remove the ability to deal more damage.

Because it can STILL add a New Dynamic to the game with the use of Multiple Melee Items.

Love the /Ignore there GL very Big of you. I'm not trying to argue with you we can discuss things ya know. It is after all supposed to be a new start to the old thread.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:29 PM EST

I do see how DW would garner a seperate use from BL. Using a chakram to attack back to front while your BoTH hits front to back and revives some of that nasty CoC mages brutal attack. (Yes I'm picturing this epic battle) It's come down to a matter if making it work somehow. We are missing a few key ingredients ill admit that but at least give me and Zenai both credit here for how many counter attacks we've had for your criticism. I could use the ego boost haha

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:31 PM EST

I'm not going to bang my head against the wall again with you Zen.

You don't get that trying to implement a new skill that is in essence the exact same as an existing skill, which costs more just to have a new name, isn't worth implementing, fine.

I'm not going to try devoting a whole thread to convincing you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:32 PM EST

Using a chakram to attack back to front while your BoTH hits front to back

Giving Tanks the ability to hit two seperate targets a round.

Massively OP. ;)

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 8:36 PM EST

GL: How many times do I have to point out the very essence of your argument with plain words just because you want to brand them as the same doesn't make them the same even if Jon said so he's been wrong before and has even said so.

BL: Adds Damage while making you more susceptible to damage

DW: Use two weapons at once.

How is these two things the same again? BL can NEVER (unless coded to do so) allow you to use 2 Melee weapons at once. Having that capability alone makes it far more dynamic in strategy implementation than BL present could ever be.

So who it hitting what brick wall? You've put yourself in a boxed mindset of thinking GL. For once can you look outside of it and at least attempt to see more?

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:40 PM EST

Yes it could be but just in that one instance you'd still have a smaller NW item in each hand than any single melee weapon linked to BL. On top of that the offhand one would do even less damage. I find most spells to be OP damage wise I mean look at SG it literally can cripple any minion with minimal xp compared to te could dilution you get one a tank training BL HP St and DX while sinking NW into a weapon on top of that. I mean I know that's the point of a Mage but still. Tanks pretty much get the option of being a main damage dealer with a ToA or starting as a single minion tank or being support class with exbows. I know there are other more creative ways to make it happen too but thts the general basics.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:42 PM EST

Last thing I'll say on this Zen.

What do you think using two wepaons at once does? Adds damage?

Dan, as for hitting multiple targets, how about this for an idea for DW;

Skill with a Fixed cost like AP
Imposes a 50% damage Penalty for both Weapons.
Both Weapons swing individually, the first weapon hitting the first target as usual. The second weapon hitting the next target in line.
If facing only a single Target, only the first (main hand) weapon swings.

PTH bonuses from Leadership/ToA apply at 50% to each weapon.

Basically, DW is no longer a 'damage' skill, but a utility one. Take a massive hit on single target damage to hit two targets in Melee.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:43 PM EST

Zenai the increased damage taken effect was removed so at this poit BL is just a damage boost. To me it's he difference between a rogue class melee fighter and a well a berserker who hits extremely hard with one weapon but is easier to hit vs the DX based rogue.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:45 PM EST

That is a fair trade off the only thing I'd change is if you lose 50% damage an can only swing once on a single minion how about when there's only one minion left you hit him with both swings. It'd be similar to fireball in the aspect that as you widow away a team you can do more damage to a single minion.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 8:47 PM EST

What do you think using two wepaons at once does? Adds damage?

True but that is not all and if all you are gonna do is focus on that then you have limited yourself in Strategic thought.

DW Left hand: ES (does what? Bleed Damage!)

DW Right Hand: Both (does what? Drains life!)

BL does what again? Adds damage while making you more susceptible to damage it doesn't give the capability for different damage types at different levels just one and only one and that is what it initially grants.


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:50 PM EST

:) Left the 50% in there as an inherant drawback, much like the increased CBD cost would be.

Plus Single Minions deserve all the boost they can get!

Trade off. Want to be uber leet and hit two diffeent opponents? Well, you're only half as effective when facing one.

But this is the gist of the whole problem.

You have to find a new niche for 'DW' if you want a skill by that name.

And to be honest, with my idea above, why not just call it 'cleave', 'Follow Through', 'Riposte' or any other fitting name, and make it work with a single weapon?

On the whole, what benefit is there to allowig you to equip two Melee Weapons in CB? What benefit that will outweigh the inherant penalties in costing more and ENC limitations?

When we can mechancially do everything we want with a single weapon.

*That's* the real question that needs to be addressed.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 8:50 PM EST

Then I stand corrected and am in an even more correct position in saying BL is not dynamic enough any more and should be stuffed into some gloves and tapered just like BGs........only to fit the amount of melee rounds......TAPERED GL TAPERED so you cannot use that argument again.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2013 8:53 PM EST

This is to Zen as well as Dan.

When all DW boils down to wanting to stack together two 'special' Melee weapon abilities. It's time to stop and move on to another idea.

I want to deal all the damage I could do with BL and a Morg, but want to pay CBD to be able to add the ES DoT to that...

Might as well ask for a Salvage/Forge feature to allow players to merge Melee weapons. At least that has some positive impact for the community.

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:56 PM EST

Good point I do like your idea. The only real reason here is to be able to stack bleed damage with vorpal ability or any combination you could think. No it's not amazing no its not necessary but it has tht "wow" factor that gets new players excited. Eventually they'll realize it's retarded but to late we have them hooked!!!!

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 8:57 PM EST

Also just to make the point clearly....again. The Dynamics of DW can be rethought and worked to fit things as needed. Constructive Criticism is great only pointing out flaws just because you can without adding in anything positive? Truthfully not welcome GL. So far you have been like a dog on a bone "DW IS BL!!!" even when I have pointed out it is even by definition NOT. "It can NEVER work!" It can if you are willing to look for it GL. Dan and I have been malleable in our thinking of the application of it you gonna join or what?

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 8:58 PM EST

That's where I proposed augments/enchants to weapons somewhere in a previous post on one of these arguments . Either combination would do good and mixing those thins in with BL would be an even better dynamic than just dual wield.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 9:14 PM EST

That kinda did get instated though Dan, these are a few of the things that NS popped out:

Gloves of Mercy: [0] (Rare) (+ to PTH of Short Edged Weapons as well as both Elven Long Sword and Blade of Thuringwethil)

Base Damage: 55, BTH 60: Melee Weapon, 1-Handed Short Edged Weapons Class
Ignores 50% of effective AC and Endurance, Target bleeds 20% (of total inflicted damage to target) per round

Menelvegorian Cape: [0] (Rare) (+ to Edged Weapon PTH)

Heavy Crossbow: Base Damage 5, BTH 60: Ignores 50% of effective AC and Endurance

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2013 9:18 PM EST

Those items are complete jokes though is the problem. I'm proposing adding enchants to weapons or even armor that add another effect such as add bleed to an ELB or add a DX boost of 5% to an exbow to help it hit.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 9:34 PM EST

Oh I'm not saying they are not joke as before this they were an even bigger joke. The idea though it that they are now not complete trash so there you go work from the bottom up I guess. It's kinda why DW has such an appeal to me, there is a far greater possibility for Weapon Combinations and therefore Strategic Stances on an overall. It's also why I stated that I feel BL should be in a pair of Gloves rather than be a's too one sided.(for lack of a better term at present)

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 23 2013 10:48 PM EST

Actually, those items are pretty good if used correctly. The gloves n cape could easily save you a 100 million late game. The ES is amazing if your team is built for it. Heavy xbow is alright.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] February 23 2013 11:24 PM EST

EoD: Those items are a joke just like the ExBow but when used properly I agree they can become quite powerful.

On another note these items were fought over too.....just like DW and BL, for quite a while. Many ppl were adamant about deleting those items as they really had no place in the system any more. Look at them now though a few are used in insightful ways and are of use again but only because they were CHANGED. Sometimes the change you fight becomes the change you didn't know would be good to begin with.

Just saying folks to keep an open mind you never know what an idea may turn into.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003KY1">bringing back the thought of dual wielding! 2</a>