This is wrong - items on retired tournament acct. (in General)


Sickone January 11 2009 11:14 AM EST

The last tournament was, well, quite special in its own right, I don't think anything similar ever existed before, both in the magnitude of the bonus (+4000% to both XP and cash) and the fact weapons were provided to everybody (ELB/MSK + BoNE).

However, it presents a particular problem - if nothing else, then at least a couple of ELB and MSK have been seriously NW-buffed.
Now, personally, I would have expected those items that were created out of thin air to simply cease existing at the end of the tournament, but according to game stats, they're still here and spamming the top50 of the corresponding weapons pages.

Granted, it's a pretty minor, downright cosmetic problem... but still... since the solution is equally simple...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 11 2009 11:55 AM EST

But like so many things, they are not high on the 'to-do' list of jon.
And what is not high on the 'to-do' list, will probably not get done in the near future.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 11 2009 12:17 PM EST

You don't like someone having a trophy?

TheHatchetman January 11 2009 12:29 PM EST

I'm all for them existing still. I've often changed my setup at the ends of tourneys so that I can show off my own "trophies" ^_^

Fatil1ty January 11 2009 1:04 PM EST

I agree with sickone, when players look over the most valuable weapons pages their should at least be an asterisk beside tourney items.

three4thsforsaken January 11 2009 3:13 PM EST

Admins could just seize them and disenchant them. That would solve the problem.

AdminShade January 11 2009 3:15 PM EST

Those weapons do not reflect real 'cb world' wealth or power. I'm also in favor of getting rid of them but that's not up to me to decide...

Wasp [Demon Forging] January 11 2009 3:23 PM EST

Theres so many little things that need to be done that aren't on the to-do list. They all need to get sorted one day.

Sickone January 11 2009 6:47 PM EST

three4thsforsaken 3:13 PM EST
Admins could just seize them and disenchant them. That would solve the problem.


That's exactly what I was hinting at when I said "the solution is equally simple" ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 11 2009 7:02 PM EST

Yeah, admins need more work...

Godpanda January 11 2009 7:32 PM EST

Hey, it's simple. No one here claism the admins are underworked or lazy. But they're needed. A lot. The argument to half the problems shouldn't be the admins are over worked. Make some more admins. I know it's risky giving people that kind of power, but a few people can't manage an entire game. Especially if they want it to grow.

What happens if CB becomes a larger game? Do the admins we have just cut down on the lesser things? No more unretiring characters before or after the 4-9 day period? Hey, too busy, no more multi searching.

Double the amount of active players, and the number of admins we have would immediately be insufficient, no matter how hard they worked. Quadruple the amount of active players... You can just imagine.

This isn't the place for a long rant amount the number of admins versus the number of players (now and in the future).

But if the problem is "The admins are too busy", then the solution is simple, "We need more admins."

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 11 2009 7:42 PM EST

The admins cannot remove the items from tournament characters, so the only way to get rid of them is to reset the characters themselves, something I'd rather not do because this removes basically all record of the tournament.

Hakai [Aye Phelta Thi] January 11 2009 7:42 PM EST

Hey, I'll be happy to take all those inconvenient weapons off your hands!! ;p

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] January 11 2009 10:04 PM EST

I'm more than willing to pick up some of the workload.... ^_^

Sickone January 11 2009 11:18 PM EST

Quite frankly, I have no idea why tournament characters aren't simply wiped out altogether (not just retired, deleted for good) a couple of days after a tournament finishes and winners are announced.
It's not like there's anything relevant to them anymore, and since tournaments are completely different from the persistant CB world, the only issue is wether the winners were properly selected... a couple of days should be ample time for any protests (not like I can recall any at all lately, but I'm only one year old so I don't know of past tournaments).

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 12 2009 7:42 AM EST

Probably the same reason why normal retired characters can't be deleted.

All the databases that keep track of items, characters, fights, etc. Would also need to be deleted.

Too much work and need really necessary

TheHatchetman January 12 2009 10:41 AM EST

Quite frankly, I have no idea why people give a damn... I usually spend more time in a tournament deciding how I'm going to leave the char at tourney's end to properly display my achievements than I do trying to actually win the tournament...

Now, honestly, what is the negative side of this? Is this in any way stopping anybody from furthering their own CBing?

three4thsforsaken January 12 2009 11:22 AM EST

everytime I look at this thread I am a bit annoyed at the term "this is wrong". It's annoying, but it's really not that bad. It is by no means ethically "wrong" in a dramatic sense.

QBRanger January 12 2009 12:03 PM EST

An achievement in a tourney that gives +4000% bonus is hardly an achievement I personally would be proud of.

Compared to those playing normal characters with little to no bonus.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 12 2009 3:50 PM EST

You wouldn't be proud of having created a nearly 100m NW weapon in two weeks? Picasso nearly hit 2m mpr in the time frame of a tourney, that's an awesome feat.

QBRanger January 12 2009 4:42 PM EST

Actually no.

Not when the bonus is so high as to make regular rewards look microscopic.

Getting to 2M MPR is a great feat, however it is an artificial one given the extreme bonus.

I can easily see how some people who put time and effort into their items would be quite annoyed that such weapons/items are on the top lists.

And agree with their view on getting them removed. Or placed into a separate category.

However, this is just my opinion on this matter.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 12 2009 5:02 PM EST

maybe next we can belittle special olympians accomplishments! ; )

QBRanger January 12 2009 5:16 PM EST

That is just plain nasty and not relevant to this discussion.

The special olympics are for "special" people and one does not see their medals listed as part of the normal olympics medal counts. And if they set a "world record" it would not be part of the official olympic record. World record as in worst loss etc.. obviously not fastest etc...

To equate getting 2M MPR and a 100+M MSB/Bone to the special olympics is just plain retarded.

00 January 12 2009 5:19 PM EST

Anyone find the irony in the last part of Rangers post?

Now that was a good laugh!!!!!(nothing against you Ranger).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 12 2009 5:21 PM EST

or a joke perhaps, note the smiley! did you lose your sense of humor in a poker game? ; ) <-----smiley

Mikel January 12 2009 6:53 PM EST

He's learned how to bluff :P

Sickone January 12 2009 7:19 PM EST

We never had this problem before with regular tournaments, because they ran at half the time and with bonuses 20 times smaller compared to such a regular tournament.
It was the equivalent of nearly one and a half years of unbonused growth.

As such, this particular tournament poses an unique (and very likely not to be repeated any time soon) problem.
And because of that, I'm urging the admins for a one-time, not likely to ever be needed again decision.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 12 2009 8:33 PM EST

It's not as simple as pushing a button, each tourney char would have to be reset, which is twice as lame as anything you've complained about.

I can't understand how folks are so offended, this tourney was awesome and I'd love to see this kind of thing become a regular happening.
If you're so bothered by a couple of top 10 lists being tarnished with "artificial"ly upped items simply ask for a realm based item list that excludes tourney chars items.

Sickone January 12 2009 8:46 PM EST

"each tourney char would have to be reset"

Sounds good, if you mean "each T35 char", not any of the past 34 ones.


"which is twice as lame as anything you've complained about"

Care to explain why ?
I can see absolutely nothing "lame" about it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 12 2009 9:20 PM EST

If you don't understand why I don't know if I can explain it.

Between Ranger belittling tourney's and you complaining like the items are fouling the holy most valuable items list I feel like ignoring forums for a while.

QBRanger January 12 2009 10:59 PM EST

I never belittled tournaments.

I stated that the characters and weapons/items of the tournaments are artificially inflated and to compare them to normally generated ones is wrong.

As the initial post states.

I think tournaments have a place in CB and can be quite fun to play in.

However, tournaments have a fixed time frame and with the inability to transfer cash/items to other characters make it an artificial "ecosystem".

To suggest someone not post how they feel in the forums, especially someone who has a very valid and well thought out point is contrary to what the forums are all about.

I will grant you that some posts have been beyond stupid and not thought out, especially from the newer players who should learn a bit of CB before making foolish suggestion/comments.

But Sickone is a very good player and one who has been here for over a year. S/he has certainly earned the right to make a suggestion and not have it disregarded as trash.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 12 2009 11:14 PM EST

You said that it wasn't an achievement, that certainly feels to me like you don't think very much of it. I apologize for my wording, I didn't want to say you were dismissive of tournaments in general.
I however can't understand how you don't see the work it would take for someone to pull that off in a time frame like that. I'm completely willing to accept that tourney items should exist in a separate world (much like tourney chars do), but to suggest chars be deleted or reset for purely aesthetic reasons makes my blood boil.

Sickone January 13 2009 12:45 AM EST

"to suggest chars be deleted or reset for purely aesthetic reasons makes my blood boil"

But isn't essentially NOT deleting (or, well, resetting) tournament characters a purely aestethic reason too ?
I mean, they served their purpose, they're gone, they can't be reactivated, their items can't enter the economy, for all intents and purposes those characters and all their posessions have ceased existing.
Except we can still see them.
If that's not a purely aesthetic thing, I don't know what else is.

Matters of taste aside (because discussing aesthetic choices are nothing more than a matter of taste afterall), you will have to admit that this particular tournament, T35, was a very strong outlier, even by wacky tournament standards.
You have a very strange combination of slightly longer duration, insane bonuses, FREE high-end weapons conjured out of nowhere JUST for the tournament and a "do not use auctions" rule (which I believe was unique in tournaments so far, feel free to correct me if not).

I can only repeat again, this is not about the other 34 regular tournaments, it's ONLY about this extremely unusual 35th tournament.
If nothing else, one could argue that the "free weapons out of nowhere" thing made this a special case tournament, one that would have to be treated slightly differently. If those weapons were generated out of thin air, they should return in the same place after the tournament finished.

But it's not just the weapons, it's a lot of other things too.
A tournament character already earns about as much CB$ as a NUB even with a standard tournament cash bonus, and generates much more CB$ compared to generated MPR than a NUB.
In a regular tournament, that's not so much of a problem, since the bonus is relatively small, and many characters will subsequently throw that cash into the auction system to get some of the better peieces of gear, shunting away big chunks of earned cash.
But in this particular tournament, not only did they NOT have to spend any cash to get their hands on good weapons, they were forbidden to compete with eachother on the "market" of auctions (and there are plenty of people with big stocks of gear waiting for a tournament to sell their wares at huge prices), and the bonus to cash was so huge, that tournament participants were literally swamped - if you didn't invest heavily into HP/ST, you would actually end up having to limit yourself encumbrance-wise, so much CB$ was just floating around with absolutely no useful way to use it.

So, yes, no matter how you look at it, T35 was a very special case which deserves a different kind of handling.
Personally, I would have prefered if it was just the weapons that were removed, but obviously that's not such an easy feat to pull off without Jon's help.
Sadly, the admins have stated that the only way they can handle it would be to reset the characters.

I argued that in this particular case, given the circumstances, a reset of T35 characters would be warranted.
All your counterarguments so far have amounted to "I don't like that".

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 13 2009 1:20 AM EST

Why is your desire not to see the weapons more important than mine to see them? I like to look at retired tourney chars, I love having the biggest DCM, even if I can't use it or even see it any more. I think you asking for items someone else created (no matter the circumstance of creation) simply because you don't want to look at them is sad.
You didn't create it, you don't get to ask for it to be deleted.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 13 2009 1:22 AM EST

correction:

"I think you asking for items someone else created [to be deleted] (no matter the circumstance of creation) simply because you don't want to look at them is sad."

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 13 2009 1:26 AM EST

SFTTP:

I hope we see many many more massive bonus tourneys, and can't believe that some others not only don't see the fun in them but would prefer that the record of them should be truncated to fulfill some obsessive desire for cleanly item listings. How hard is it to realize that your MsK is still in the top 10 "real" items, despite the fact that the list has been stained by foul undeserving aberrant tourney items.

AdminNightStrike January 13 2009 1:57 AM EST

First, some clerical matters:

dudemus, your comment was in poor taste. I'm honestly not sure how you meant it, but I am quite sure that bringing the special olympics into the discussion is rather crass. Please think before you post.


As for the issue of weapon NW, I have this to say on the matter:

* Deleting records of any form from past tournaments is undesirable. The event took place, and the results are in. It was rather epic in its own right, and the effects of that tournament stand in several forms, not just the item stats.

* The idea of having a separate stats page for tournies, while intriguing as a concept, is not a priority at the moment. I can see how it would be a good compromise, and I will put it on the list of things to do. However, don't hold your breath waiting for it.

In the meantime, life will progress, and eventually, the tournament items will be like retired characters. They are frozen in time, and will eventually be overtaken by "active" items.

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions, Sickone. Now get back to fighting!

three4thsforsaken January 13 2009 2:40 AM EST

for the record, I thought the premise behind the last tourny to be very entertaining and fun. Although I didn't participate in it I saw many many people in chat who did.


I would like to see tourneys (though not quite as huge of a scale) run more often, I think it has an appeal that many people in the game can really appreciate, new and old players alike. And CB could really use something to hang on to old players

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 13 2009 7:23 AM EST

"dudemus, your comment was in poor taste. I'm honestly not sure how you meant it, but I am quite sure that bringing the special olympics into the discussion is rather crass. Please think before you post."

it was simply a joke meant to poke fun at the tendency to belittle the accomplishments of others because their accomplishments do not fit into the "normal" playstyle. it is likely crass as is the use of the word "retarded" which is part of our community here (fors). i had hoped for a bit of humor to make people think about their points of view, perhaps some did but it was likely another epic fail!

QBRanger January 13 2009 9:03 AM EST

IF there are to be more "super bonus" tournaments, how can normal items ever hope to repopulate the top items page?

Tis a shame normal items get relegated to 2nd class state.

I would think the accomplishment of building a weapon/item over years instead of weeks would be far more satisfying.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 13 2009 9:08 AM EST

A much much much easier solution:
Reopen the tourney for a week, let all the players disenchant there weapons. Problem solved...

QBJohnnywas January 13 2009 9:09 AM EST

I'm not sure it matters how a weapon/item gets into those standings. Certainly the question of what matters more becomes invalid IMO when there are items that have been built with USD input sitting at the top of those standings. That kind of reduces the achievement somewhat no?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 13 2009 9:15 AM EST

But Johnny, USD is a legitamte part of the normal CB game. ;)

DoS [Battle Royale] January 13 2009 9:16 AM EST

Henk, you can't disenchant everything ;)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 13 2009 9:19 AM EST

you can disenchant those weapons that were used, and I didn't read the part that was about low lvl stuff.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 13 2009 9:19 AM EST

And now some serious comments.

Yes, the intergrated lists makes the normal game ones less meaningful.

No, we shouldn't get rid of what people made or did, no matter the Tournament.

Maybe we should all think about what the current lists are for, what role they portray, and what we actually use them for.

Time for a Poll? ;)

QBsutekh137 January 13 2009 9:57 AM EST

What if items and NW-based stuff had their own realms, like characters? "Standard" and "Tournament", for starters. Or, if "Tournaments" is the only additional segmentation ever needed, the object/item table would just need another field, or a table joined in to indicate special attributes of the item (like "this was fiddled with in a tournament").

Then, couldn't tournament items have their own pages? Or at least be ignored until such time as special tournament pages were built?

I know, that's probably a lot of work. But it sounds like that would be the "right" way to do things and accomplish everyone's goals. If a system needs two buckets, build a second bucket. Don't try to shoehorn two things into the single bucket, neither of which fits correctly any more.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 13 2009 10:39 AM EST

As Tournaments don't follow standard game rules, it seems obvious to give them thier own stats pages.

Sickone January 13 2009 10:47 AM EST

Well, yeah, ideally, that would be the best thing to do.
However, I seriously doubt that's anywhere on Jon's "to do" list at all, let alone somewhere high enough.

Taking the current issue to the logical extreme : what if we hold a one-month long tournament with a 75000% bonus next time, and we give everybody a full choice of gears (tattoo, 3 armors, 3 cloaks, 4 gloves, 4 boots, 4 amulets, 4 helmets, 4 shields, 4 long-range weapons, 4 meleee weapons, etc) ?
That's the equivalent of almost 30 years of no-bonus growth and every possible piece of equipment you can imagine.
Should we let those characters and those items in the game too when that tournament finishes ?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 13 2009 11:21 AM EST

Yes

QBRanger January 13 2009 11:23 AM EST

No,

They should have their own seperate area.

But should not be included with normal items.

TheHatchetman January 13 2009 11:40 AM EST

How is the achievement from playing a week in a tourney any less than the achievement of reaching into your pocket for a week's pay? I'm fairly certain I've got the highest non-USD weapon... By the logic that tourney achievements are bunk and ill-suited for high scores list, I should be at the very top of the weaponry charts. No?

Sickone January 13 2009 3:01 PM EST

More like one week of tournament for 4 hour's pay (since you don't spend more than that total during a tournament)... and I doubt that would be enough to get you anywhere close to the top weapon NW list.

QBJohnnywas January 13 2009 3:37 PM EST

At least 10 of the top items have benefitted from USD injection. If the achievements of a tourney aren't valid in the standings then personally I really believe that the USD items aren't either.

And if you believe they're a valid achievement that should be recognised then why is a tourney not valid?

QBsutekh137 January 13 2009 4:46 PM EST

JW, I think the point isn't that tourneys aren't valid. They are a different universe, so they shouldn't be stat'd along with things from the another universe (CB-standard).

Folks seem to be missing the point along these "validation" lines. Whether or not one thinks tournaments are valid, statistics, lists, and rankings are based on one thing: comparing apples to apples. Comparing a tournament weapon to a standard weapon, when the tournament offered clear ability to create a weapon unlike anything else conceivable, isn't a fair comparison. That's all. Nothing else. We shouldn't have statistical aberrations in lists any more than we should display the levels for Ablative Shield with levels for Dispel Magic in the same list. They are different things so should have different lists. In lieu of different lists, my opinion would be that the list that remains should be the one affecting more people. In this case, that would mean the "standard" lists. That isn't detracting, denigrating, invalidating, or otherwise blemishing the good name of tournaments and tournament players -- it is simply numerical fact.

QBJohnnywas January 13 2009 5:03 PM EST

Dunno Sut, the original post and a couple of responses seem to think that items from the last tourney in particular aren't valid

"I would have expected those items that were created out of thin air to simply cease existing at the end of the tournament, but according to game stats, they're still here and spamming the top50 of the corresponding weapons pages."

"Spamming the top50" certainly suggests they're worthless.

But that's by the by. I'm all for separate rankings for tourneys. Would be pretty cool. Would make it easier I would have thought to pull various stats in a similar way to the clan rankings too. Increased competition and all of that.

Lochnivar January 13 2009 5:12 PM EST

... I just fancied a cup of tea and lo and behold came across this tempest in my teapot...

QBsutekh137 January 13 2009 5:13 PM EST

Agreed, some language represents what you are saying -- I guess I am judging this by the "spirit of the law" rather than the letter. Whether someone thinks the items are different because they are worthless or different because they are just different, it points to needing two buckets. And I respect the opinion of anyone who thinks tourney items are "worthless". Not saying I agree, but folks are entitled to their opinions (and I think very few have that opinion, contrary to some of the things that have been said on this thread...).

QBRanger January 13 2009 5:23 PM EST

I agree wholeheartedly with Sut's view on the subject.

They are fine items/characters but made in an alternative universe and should be compared to those from the same universe.

I am sorry if my posts did not clearly state that.

QBsutekh137 January 13 2009 7:35 PM EST

Hey, I heard where you were coming from, so that should be saying something, no? *smile* I am glad you made your points, Ranger, because the thread was better for them. Word choice is always tough, but we can't all be Osiran word-smiths.

AdminNightStrike January 16 2009 12:57 PM EST

Did nobody read my second bullet?

"* The idea of having a separate stats page for tournies, while intriguing as a concept, is not a priority at the moment. I can see how it would be a good compromise, and I will put it on the list of things to do. However, don't hold your breath waiting for it. "


If you actually did read it, then the followup posts are confusing, at best. I consider this issue closed.
This thread is closed to new posts.