New item (in General)


QBRanger May 7 2009 1:01 PM EDT

From another thread:

Cloak of Protection.

Each + gives 2% protection from the drain of ax/exbows and EC. Upgrade as the NSC. So +14 named would protect 30% of a tanks strength and dexterity from EC and exbow/axbow leech. Cannot be drained below that amount.

I say 2% as a tank needs more strength due to its non linear damage production.

IE:

If your tank has 5M strength and 3M dexterity, equipping a +14 named CoP will protect 1.5M strength and 900k of dexterity from the leeching of the speciality crossbows and EC.

OR,

Make it armor at 1% per +, and have tanks make a choice between the TSA and AoP.

OR,

Make it a helm and have them choose HoC or HoP.

OR,

Make it gloves and have a choice between BG, TG or GoP.

Thoughts.

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:02 PM EDT

I personally would like to see a cloak as the EC is the real only cloak for tanks.

However, armor would be very interesting as well.

Lord Bob May 7 2009 1:05 PM EDT

I'd rather just fix the crossbows.

GnuUzir May 7 2009 1:09 PM EDT

I like...

Mostly because it would make me decide if the plus to skill from the EC or the Protection is more important...

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:12 PM EDT

I agree fixing the xbows is preferrable, however, I fail to see that happening in the near or far future.

This would make EC more worthless than it currently is though.

But giving people a choice would be a good thing.

AdminLamuness May 7 2009 1:26 PM EDT

I agree with you Ranger that having more choices is beneficial. However, throwing more items to the mix rather than fixing the underlying problem will bring more issues in the long run.

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:29 PM EDT

However,

If the people that code the game think the exbow is fine the way it is, would this new item be a nice counter, and give a choice.

Between using it and using a different item with different benefits?

It all boils down to if the coders of the game think the exbow/axbow are too powerful or not.

The community believes one way, I think the developers believe another.

Lord Bob May 7 2009 1:33 PM EDT

"However, throwing more items to the mix rather than fixing the underlying problem will bring more issues in the long run."

Correct. I've been saying things like this since forever.

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:34 PM EDT

I agree!!!

However, unless the developers believe something is wrong, it will not be fixed.

So a countermeasure is in order- The Cloak of Protection.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] May 7 2009 1:35 PM EDT

I really dont see a problem with the ex/ax bow..

QBOddBird May 7 2009 1:37 PM EDT

I can foresee everyone jumping to tell Kefeck what's wrong with it - gimme one sec, I'll just go find links and we'll avert a 500 page off-course thread.

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:37 PM EDT

And that is my point.

While some think the exbow is out of line, others do not.

Therefore what about my proposed item?

Let us move on to that discussion please.

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:39 PM EDT

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002iRo

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Oy8

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002HkK

Some brief readings about the past discussions on the exbow. Decide for yourselves if it is OP or not. Then let us move on to my proposed new item please.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] May 7 2009 1:45 PM EDT

I"m just saying if its so op why is it only a few teams take advantage of that? The specialized cross-bows are a very specific strat aimed at tanks, and have too rely on some other meens of damage too really defeat a team, and against most mage teams they have no chance. I say if people are willing too put in the investment into most likely two weapons, let them.

Also, i would like this item allot more if it were a peace of headgear or maybe even boots. A cloak is going too take the tattoo slot which is fine i suppose (Down with the single minion teams).

QBOddBird May 7 2009 1:45 PM EDT

I think it's an interesting idea, but EC would need a buff in return if such an item were implemented.

I still feel, however, that the better solution is to deal with the issue rather than making an item to counter it.

With an upgrade like the NSC's, the most STR/DX a tank could ensure it never lost would be 42-44%, really...that's acceptable IMO, as the tank would still have lost over half its hitting power and much of its accuracy.

In return, you're not allowed to complain about the NSCs ever again ;)

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 7 2009 1:46 PM EDT

I like the item, but I'd like it best if it were a cloak.

QBRanger May 7 2009 1:49 PM EDT

Kef has a good point.

As a cloak a single minion cannot use it.

And the exbow being OP debate has been in other threads.

I do also believe EC needs a nice boost.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] May 7 2009 1:59 PM EDT

I"m not really sure how this would help any.

If your tank has 5M strength and 3M dexterity, equipping a +14 named CoP will protect 1.5M strength and 900k of dexterity from the leeching of the speciality crossbows and EC.

Lets say they have 3 million dex also.

3 million > 900k

I"m thinking you prolly still wont hit =/

QBOddBird May 7 2009 2:00 PM EDT

If your opponent is using an Axbow, yeah. And that's perfectly right, if they're using an Axbow over another favored ranged weapon, you shouldn't hit.

If your opponent is using an Exbow, your strength will be dropped to 1.5M; a hefty drop, but it doesn't turn your damage into nil. That's appropriate too, IMO.

Zenai May 7 2009 2:00 PM EDT

Great idea, a lot of thought in that item. I would say though how about this being the first item implementation for a new item slot. Rings! Ring of Protection cliche but why not?

QBOddBird May 7 2009 2:01 PM EDT

hit as often*

post editing!

QBRanger May 7 2009 2:19 PM EDT

One can always hit with PTH of the weapon. Aside from the BTh.

I was thinking about an amulet with this property, however again, single minions would not likely use it as they use AoJs.

I would think perhaps a Shield would be best.

Tanks would then have to choose between the MgS, the SoC, the BoM and the SoP. In addition to the few that use the MS.

Wizard'sFirstRule May 7 2009 4:36 PM EDT

You just can't introduce a good cloak. EVER. because it would be the only choice for a while. Most cloaks is just "s-word" (I am sure it is ok to say it, but I am too nice to). There is no competition in the cloak slots except with tattoo. I am ok with it being a helmet or gloves.

Also, it is so OP. +15 means 30%, which can be a lot at higher level.

three4thsforsaken May 7 2009 4:41 PM EDT

from the same thread:


""Even a 3M investment into EC would lower the opposing tanks strength. Lowering damage by a certain amount. It would also lower dexterity perhaps giving a difference in BTH. "

The point I'm trying to drive across is that 3 mil EC will do almost nothing to reduce damage on 8 million Raw str. If you have any str boosting equips you're going to get at least a 50% str boost, upwards to over 100% if you have the money. That's at least 12 million str. What is 1.5 str drain doing to do there? Almost nothing. Actually, you'll probably be unable to measure the difference since it's so subtle.

Funny you should recommend some sort of EC resistance, but there already is. What's the most boostable stat in the game? Strength is. Why would you want EC resistance when a plain strength boost is just as good if not better? EC's linear growth is stopped in its tracks with Strength's rapid growth.

So far EC and AMF seem to be on the same page. What's the least boostable stat in the game? Ok fine, it's HP. What's the 2nd least boostable stat? Direct damage spells. Jon obviously noticed this and made AMF effect increase non-linearly. And then he realized that there was little DD's could do to combat AMF so he added NSC. I mean, what can a mage do against AMF prior? EC is so much more protected than AMF that it makes sense.

Don't you see a pattern in CB's design? Str increases damage nonlinearlly, so a linear decrease in str results in a nonlinear decrease in damage. DDs increase damage lineally, so a nonlinear scaling of AMF results in a nonlinear form of damage reduction. If you add strengths boost-ability into the equation with DD's lack thereof then NSC makes much more sense. "

three4thsforsaken May 7 2009 4:50 PM EDT

The above quote was to point out how EO's aren't meant to have a major effect to anything if invested much less than the other state. For example Ranger brought up an 8 mil DD versus an 3 mil AMF. He argues that AMF should have a more major effect and I argue no and compare it to EC.

Jon created EO's to fight exp dilution and designed them to require a similar amount of exp invested vs the stat in question to have any major effect. Therefore 8 mil DD round 8 mil AMF. And 8 mil Str will need around 8 mil EC to start seeing results.

(Before you guys start saying things remember strength's boostability and nonlinear effect)

Wizard'sFirstRule May 7 2009 4:50 PM EDT

After some thoughts, I think the Big R is only having problems with big (no capital B) ExBow draining all stats in 1 hit, which is definitely not fair (although I plan to abuse that at some point).

QBRanger May 7 2009 5:21 PM EDT

3/4ths, no need to repeat yourself in multiple threads.

But one more point.

AMF works massively different than EC.

Magic always hits. AMF is one, if not the only way to reduce its damage aside from the MgS and EH. The MgS has a huge restriction on its use, and the EH is crap. You cannot dodge a FB.

Physical still has to hit. EC can lower dexterity enough to turn 2 hits into 0. It lowers strength in a non linear damage related way, but still lowers damage. One can dodge and evade physical damage. Perhaps not easily at the upper reaches but one certainly can. Look at Mikel.

There is almost no way to have a massive EO spell and have enough xp left to have an attack yourself. Perhaps with a tattoo, but you have to support that tattoo.

I disagree completely about the designs Jon intended for these spells. I have no idea what it was but I do believe he wanted some AMF to be useful vs DD. I hope that is what he wanted. The NSC makes that moot and you may be right.

QBRanger May 7 2009 5:35 PM EDT

However 3/4ths.

What do you think of the item I proposed?

three4thsforsaken May 7 2009 5:48 PM EDT

"AMF works massively different than EC.

Magic always hits. AMF is one, if not the only way to reduce its damage aside from the MgS and EH. The MgS has a huge restriction on its use, and the EH is crap. You cannot dodge a FB."

That's true. Don't see how it's relevant but sure.

"Physical still has to hit. EC can lower dexterity enough to turn 2 hits into 0. It lowers strength in a non linear damage related way, but still lowers damage. One can dodge and evade physical damage. Perhaps not easily at the upper reaches but one certainly can. Look at Mikel."

Yes, but this doesn't disprove my point. My point is that EC and AMF are useless without significant and similar exp investment. The extra dex needed to have a higher dex ratio is part of that equation. You're somehow expecting 3 mil EC or AMF to have a major effect against an 8 mil str and some amount of dex. But in order to have an effect on that some amount of dex you need your own dex. Since physical damage can be reduced in multiple ways, you're going to have to put that into your equation when trying to reduce such damage, no matter how you spin it that's more exp investment. DBs fit in this equation too, but it's worth mentioning the incredible amount of money pouring into them. That's worth something.

"There is almost no way to have a massive EO spell and have enough xp left to have an attack yourself. Perhaps with a tattoo, but you have to support that tattoo."

Isn't this a result of EO's? Isn't this the reason why exp concentration is the name of the game is to combat EO's? The reason people don't run around with only 25% exp in DDs is because it's too easy to overpower it with AMF. I feel the entire game has been shaped because of EO's ability to fight exp dilution. People don't do double mages in a 4 minion team because of EO's, something that would otherwise be a very popular strat. Is this not true?

Exp concentration is the best way to combat EO's, forcing the opponent to invest more than they are comfortable to beat their strat. I mean, what do you expect? Do you really want to see a 3 mil levels invested in EC shut down 8 million levels of invested str? 3 million AMF shut down 8 million levels of DD? Then wouldn't 8 million levels in EO be GG? That's not cool.

"I disagree completely about the designs Jon intended for these spells. I have no idea what it was but I do believe he wanted some AMF to be useful vs DD. I hope that is what he wanted. The NSC makes that moot and you may be right."

Again I'm going to say my stance. EO's require similar investment to show a sizable (but not overpowering) effect to a similar sized stat.

three4thsforsaken May 7 2009 5:53 PM EDT

The item? I think it's fine. Though I think it should take over another one or two items slots, because NSCs competes with one 2 major DD boosters. Or the only one if you're using a familiar. (SBs are minor).

But I don't know why you would use it. Str and dex are already so boostable to begin with you're pretty safe from EC anyway. Plus boosting items are still useful without EC. In fact, if it takes much a major item slot it is in danger of being too weak.

AdminTitan May 7 2009 5:55 PM EDT

3/4s to over simplify something: In today's game, 2.5M EC >>> 2.5M AMF. EC at least can lower my about 9%. Mages, that much AMF doesn't affect them. NSCs poof it's gone.

Zenai May 7 2009 5:56 PM EDT

What no one is up for a new item slot? As much as you guys complain/debate about having to choose between this item and that item because of a "Lack" of room? I mean I understand that "All" of this is in fact nothing more than a theory but why not use this as a possibility instead of automatically dismissing it?

No Offense intended and I hope none taken.

three4thsforsaken May 7 2009 5:57 PM EDT

I'm comparing

small EC to large preboosted str

small AMF to large preboosted DDs.

Give me an example of what's small and what's large and I'll show you.

AdminTitan May 7 2009 5:57 PM EDT

If xbow can't be fixed, I think this is a great idea. Except one couldn't use one with a ToA if it's a cloak.

Little Anthony May 7 2009 6:35 PM EDT

"Cannot be drained below that amount. "

i would like an item that can enable me to floor tank's weapon too


LOL

AdminTitan May 7 2009 6:39 PM EDT

/me hands LA a x4000 exbow.

QBRanger May 7 2009 6:43 PM EDT

/me hands LA a x3000 exbow. Will do the same job.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- May 7 2009 7:16 PM EDT

That's some funny stuff.

Wizard'sFirstRule May 8 2009 12:30 AM EDT

/me snatches the xbow from ranger.
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