Player Council - Candidates (in General)


Mythology [The Knighthood] February 20 2010 5:11 AM EST

Please see the other thread for the basic idea of the player council.

I've been asked a few questions, such as what would the player council do first, well in honesty I'd recommend once formed they themselves decide.

I think the main thing really now is to get 3 together and let them decide how things are best run between themselves and who does which bit.

So yeah, its hard to make a list without knowing who is potentially up for the job, so if you'd be willing to donate your time just send me a chatmail saying you're up for it.

There won't be a vote, still need a list of whos up for it though, oh and if you hadn't guessed already I will definetly not be on it, for a start my ability to avoid soapboxing is little to none :)

Mythology [The Knighthood] February 20 2010 7:53 AM EST

Could I also say if you have someone in mind who you think would serve well, direct them to this thread please.

Zenai February 20 2010 9:38 AM EST

I will gladly donate some of my time if NS & CO. feel I am qualified.

QBRanger February 20 2010 11:49 AM EST

Any Council should have Dudemus on it.

He is a center type person who does not take sides on most things, stays unbiased and is a data lover type person.

Other people could be Nem, Titan, Z or Kevlar. I know all 4 care greatly for the game and would make excellent additions to try to make the game more popular and balanced.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 20 2010 11:53 AM EST

I am going to have to second for Dudemus. Only if he has time tho =].

Adios Muchachos February 20 2010 11:57 AM EST

Dudemus, Sickone, Zenai, and SK (he knows how to game the system, and he should know how to fix it) all get my backing

QBOddBird February 20 2010 11:59 AM EST

I'd agree with including dudemus. I think he would forward along community feedback without including personal bias.

I also feel that Nemerizt would be good at this.

I hope they decide they'd be interested in doing this; I agree with not having a vote, as that simply turns it into a popularity contest.

Glad to see you trying to improve the game, Myth, we're lucky to have gotten you back. :)

Zenai February 22 2010 6:27 PM EST

Bump.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 22 2010 6:40 PM EST

I would be willing to help with this.

ScY February 22 2010 7:58 PM EST

/Support JS!

Sickone February 23 2010 12:00 AM EST

I have been in "positions of power" (be it either almost symbolic, mostly practical but not in name, appointed or elected, everything you can think of) more than once in other games I used to play (and I played a LOT of other web-based text games), so let me start by telling you I *KNOW* that I lack the necessary time to do the job right for this particular appointment.

This is a position that will require the council candidates to come together as often as possible and have several big chats, and those chats should probably be mixed text + voice chats instead of just text chats (some things are much better expressed in words first, before eventually being comitted to writing). Forum talk will just not do, even CBChat would oftentimes not be enough. Of course, you should post up on the forums some heavily edited "meeting minutes" for preliminary decisions taken and reasons for doing so, to get some feedback from the general population, but, you know, you get the idea.
If you guys plan to do this the *right* way, for those elected/appointed, the "job" will eat a LOT of free time.

I would gladly take the role of advisor, as in, explain why I think some things are good or some things are bad and so on whenever I have the time, but as "player councilor", there are two possibilities :
* the time demands will either be far above what I am confident I could handle...
or
* I could handle the time requirements, but in that case I would be severely dissapointed at the "quality of work" being done by the council.

Either way, that's a strong enough reason to sadly have to decline an appointment as player councilor.
Advisor, sure, with pleasure, via the forums to keep it all as transparent as possible, but councilor, sorry, I have to say no.

Zenai February 23 2010 3:24 PM EST

What if it worked more along these lines Sickone? :

Although I can say this and of course it is just and idea for your idea. Why not have the 3 C the Council have three assistants

Per instance:

Nem - DoS,EoD, Myth
Sickone - JS,Titan, Nayab
Dudemus - Wraithlin, Hatch, Zenai

I had to throw a few things in there for Spice. Overall the idea is basic, One Strat person, Idea Person and Number Cruncher. Together all three work out the kinks and ante up the the Council Person for review and possibly presentation to Jon/NS

Zenai February 23 2010 3:25 PM EST

The results to*

Wraithlin February 23 2010 4:30 PM EST

I don't mind reading threads and giving summaries to Dude or whoever, if we decide to make a little CB government system.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 23 2010 5:00 PM EST

Nem // Kevlar have my support 100%. I doubt I need to say why, as most people will likely already know what they are bringing to the table as far as experience and knowledge.

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] February 23 2010 7:46 PM EST

Don't start over thinking. Just need three to five guys to report the unimportant ideas/complaints an admin might not see. Don't need a pyramid scheme.

QBRanger February 23 2010 8:20 PM EST

I agree with Gun.

If we are to do this, the KISS technique usually works best.

Just pick 3 people and start this process. Gosh, this is starting to look like the US government trying to pass any bill. All chat, no action.

ScY February 23 2010 8:51 PM EST

Yeah your right ranger! God I thought I was the only one getting tired of those Republican filibusters.

:D

Wraithlin February 23 2010 11:56 PM EST

You're right, we should go back to democrat philibusters.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 February 23 2010 11:57 PM EST

Totally not a politics thread.

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] February 24 2010 12:07 AM EST

So say the comrades!

Zenai February 24 2010 12:39 AM EST

Gentlemen sometimes the answer to something simple is complicated and the KISS method just doesn't apply.

The idea I was attempting to setup here would at the very least keep the Best Candidates for the Council in place AND minimize the amount of work needed for each to do.

To use the KISS method to explain it: A Filter for a Filter.

Why is that such a terrible thing to do? In the longrun that would be a prime example of time maximization and productivity. Better quality productivity makes for a higher the chance of something actually going through ie change. Not just any old change but some thing worthwhile, which I am sure everyone can agree that is the main reason for having a Player Council in the first place.

Just to drop it on the table folks do you honestly think idea filtering would be the ONLY thing on the Player Council's plate? They are gonna need help for the other things needing to be tackled so why not set up a proper plan than haphazardly cobbling something together?

Anything worth doing is worth doing right the first time.

Remember these players will be dedicating their personal time for this venture. Put too much on their plate and you will doom them to failure if they do not have help.

Mythology [The Knighthood] February 24 2010 4:24 AM EST

Sorry for little to no updates of late, I was asked to put together a short list and as the list of people who've put themselves forward was lets say even shorter than a very short list thought I'd wait and hope for few more, thankfully Zen's bump has done the trick :)

If anyone else would like to help, just cm me or post here.

Zen, I see the merits of your idea and also generally side with Ranger on this one, as I've said before though the first thing the council needs to do is decide how it does the stuff is totally up to them and if the 3 feel they could do with some help then it's totally up to them :)

Godpanda February 24 2010 4:26 AM EST

TheHatchetman.

{EQ}Viperboy February 24 2010 9:06 AM EST

I don't think there should be a player council, b/c i don think this game should be democratic. Wouldn't people just always want more and more, and in the end economy and other things would be ruined. I think its fine how it is now. Plus suggestions are always read and considered anyways. So people can always ciontribute by throwing out ideas.

Zenai February 24 2010 9:24 AM EST

NS' Response:

NightStrike February 19 10:22 PM EST

...on reading forums.. I read less and less threads, because they are mostly filled with chaff, devoid of wheat. I've asked several people to separate the chaff for me, but it's hard without formality. Myth's idea does that. And don't be surprised if you see an increase in admin action towards idiotic posts. This thread is a great example of a thread I mainly scroll past. 54 replies, a lot of which are a waste of time to read.

...on unbiased changes... There are several people that would be capable of stepping outside their own sandboxes to analyze game balance. There are many who cannot. One person in particular comes to mind that is very good at this. People who cannot would not be selected

...on bug hunting.. I can't fix bugs I don't know about, and there is no good way to highlight what's wrong and what to do about it. We've had some attempts, but mostly, there's just a lot of spam surrounding legitimate bug reports. A perfect case study is the "recent" NW bug that Miandrital pointed out 3 years ago

...on current projects... CB is not a full time job. Based on the money that comes out of it, it can't even really be considered a"job" at all. We don't have MS Project running somewhere with a gant chart showing all kinds of things going on, and percentage completion. It's much less formal.

..on loud voices... This idea will not accentuate the loudest voice, but instead give representation to the soft drowned out voices that are swamped by a few loud ones. A lot goes missed in the world of CB, and every conversation everywhere devolves into the agenda du jour of a handful of people. I don't have the wherewithall to sort that stuff anymore

...on player retention.. Yes, that is vital. No one on CB is stupid enough to say that player retention doesn't matter, or that it sn't paramount. Yes, we all know the tutorial bites, and we'd all love a replacement. That's really not part of this discussion

....on the use of "devs".. I really hate the constant references to "the devs". Honestly, I do. "The devs think X." "The devs do Y.""The devs have ignored Z for ## years." It's very aggravating. I'm not Terry Armstrong...on community driven change... That's not what this is about, at all. Enough said.

So it would still be a NS/Jonocracy Viperboy just with a better chance that something good can come from a Player Council that is all......a Chance. To me it would be worth the work to have a chance of bettering the game and player base.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 9:37 AM EST

This might be a little, divergant, to the original idea, but why not let the QBs be this council?

We've had a few polls and threads go now where in recent history about the QB program. Should it be bought back, should it be scrapped. Etc.

Why not formalise the position slightly and let the QBs be the folk to sift out and return stuff to Jon/NS.

As for the people nominated in this and the other thread, I would say they make excellent candidates for QB-ness, and would help bolster the ranks after the ever dwindling amount due to no new ones and some QBs being less active.

Instead of the whole posting reasons and public vote, couldn't we just ask for some (three? it's been long enough as it is) of those nominated to be given QB status, and take it from there.

If there are balance concerns, the existing QBs are stil very passionate about the game, and range extensively over balance issues.

I for one am nearly a polar opposite of Ranger, on most cases (while we do agree on a few), with other voices bringing other balance points. We would cover a disverse range of opinion over CB gameplay.

Which can only be healthy.

Wraithlin February 24 2010 9:40 AM EST

I don't think there should be a player council, b/c i don think this game should be democratic. Wouldn't people just always want more and more, and in the end economy and other things would be ruined. I think its fine how it is now. Plus suggestions are always read and considered anyways. So people can always ciontribute by throwing out ideas.


Having someone read threads and provide an organized summary to an admin does not make this a democracy. It makes the admins not stupid. There are no admins that read every single thread, especially not with the tangents we all get off on. However even in some of the rediculous threads there are random gems of good information/ideas that can be taken out if we had people dedicated to working on it.

Apparantly you think that Jon and NS have already thought of every good idea possible with regards to this game and need no help from people willing to provide it. Offering an idea is not even close to the same as voting for new changes. It is still run by the admins, this is just a method to help them brainstorm.

Demigod February 24 2010 10:11 AM EST

There are several people that would be capable of stepping outside their own sandboxes to analyze game balance. There are many who cannot. One person in particular comes to mind that is very good at this.


I want to know, who is this particular person? I have three people in mind, but I'm curious.

Also, it sounds as if NS supports the counsel idea. I still think it's bound for failure (just the nature of the beast), but to give it a fighting chance, please do keep it simple. Go with three people. If one or two aren't available, it's okay; the remaining person can act independently. Complicating matters will just slow progress.

Zenai February 24 2010 12:13 PM EST

GL: Those are some really good thoughts and could possibly liven up thye game while tackling a long argued issue here in CB Land.

Demi: To a point I agree I would like to know who this person is....lol The idea of only one person tackling the job just doesn't sit well with me. Diversity of thought for application of elements is necessary for balance.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 24 2010 12:45 PM EST

if only one person is chose, i would hate to see their cm inbox! ; )

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 24 2010 3:12 PM EST

lol dude, you should join wookies for a week, your CM inboc would never be the same. On that token anyone in wookies would be prepared to handle the flood of cms, as I would think by now we are all used to it.

=) I've woken up after taking a day off to 75+ cms before, and I know that wasn't the highest ever haha.

QBJohnnywas February 24 2010 3:14 PM EST

Over a hundred CMs in one day, that's the most I've woken up to!!

AdminNightStrike February 24 2010 4:03 PM EST

For you clan wall types, get an admin in your clan, and they can delete posts :)

QBsutekh137 February 24 2010 5:05 PM EST

This might be a little, divergant, to the original idea, but why not let the QBs be this council?


Only if you take away the QB tag from those not really playing any more. You sort of mention something like that (bolstering the whole QB process to make it more dynamic/relevant), but I would say QBs could only begin to be considered for something like this if that happens first, and not at all otherwise.

Zenai February 24 2010 5:35 PM EST

Sut: Another section of the QB issue to be work out that has still not been settled. Maybe Changing the inactive QB Tags to Flat Black or Changing the New Council Bound QB Tags to Carnage Red? This way it does not take away from the honor given to those who have earned it and still makes a distinction to those who are PC Members.


Just a thought..............

QBsutekh137 February 24 2010 7:24 PM EST

Sure, a different label could work... But a QB who doesn't care about a label change is probably not going to care about being QB at all. *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 7:30 PM EST

;)

I don't mind removal of the QB tag entirely, at all.

But why disolve something we can update instead to being more meaningful?

Or we could always resurect the Sir/Lady tag for these council reps, but do we really need the extra distinction?

Zenai February 24 2010 8:09 PM EST

GL: Maybe or maybe not. Overall I like it but I am not sure if the application would be necessary :-/

Sut: I look at it like this my friend. Even if I took a 2 year break I would still like to be able to come back to the game and still see the accomplishments I left with. What if I had no choice but to leave to do something IRL should I be punished for that by the removal of something I earned?


Just a few thoughts...........

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] February 24 2010 9:44 PM EST


That depends on whether you think it's an honorific or a role.

Even if you never make another movie, the Academy doesn't take back your Oscar.

Likewise, you can continue to claim you are Pharm.D., without ever doing any further work. But if you want to continue to be a practicing R.Ph., you'd better be keeping up with your Continuing Education credits.

Zenai February 25 2010 6:05 AM EST

Prime Example Bast, and one I agree with to be honest.

I would be for QBs keeping their Tags but the PC Council Ones having their Color Changed to reflect their New Status. Just my opinion though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 25 2010 6:34 AM EST

Bast, why can't it be both? ;)

The role would of course be optional.

Zenai February 25 2010 10:21 AM EST

Hmm that sounds workable to me ;-D

Zenai February 25 2010 6:00 PM EST

No other thoughts, ideas, opinions, volunteers?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 25 2010 6:04 PM EST

How does this actually get setup? I volunteer but I guess we need NS' approval for who is on the council or whatever and when it would start?

Zenai February 25 2010 6:11 PM EST

I know Nem I volunteered as well. Many were suggested also, I guess it is a waiting game...... or we narrow down the names of ppl who could be the candidates. Open another Thread with Suggested Candidates and See what NS has to say.

Kefeck February 25 2010 7:20 PM EST

I can volunteer!

Wraithlin February 25 2010 7:23 PM EST

Well you don't need anyone's permission for someone to step up and form a group and get this organized and start making summary posts once a week or whatever. You just need 1-3 people to step up and organize it.

And it would probably help if it was someone that everyone actually wanted to listen to otherwise I might.

Demigod February 25 2010 7:46 PM EST

Just grab whomever you want, sift through all those old threads, organize the useful ideas, and bounce them over to NS. You can knock out that first wave by tomorrow afternoon, then grab a beer to celebrate.

Zenai February 25 2010 7:49 PM EST

Well Nem take the Helm bro, I think everyone is with me when I say I think you should be the one to run this show.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 25 2010 8:27 PM EST

Yep! All yours Nem!

AdminTitan February 25 2010 10:46 PM EST

NO, Nem will get killed just like in CGun!. XD

kevlar February 26 2010 2:06 AM EST

I like the idea behind this, and understand the reason for it, but I think the underlying problem isn't being addressed:

Jon isn't putting anymore time into the game.

We all have been pretty patient, hoping something is going on behind the scenes... but, *continues to watch the second hand tick tick tick* And unless told otherwise, what are we to assume from this?

Don't ya think it's time to pass the torch... and get things moving the way they were before... in the direction that has some sort of vision for the future of the game? I mean, if Jon came in and told us he is busy and will be back in X amount of time, that would be one thing. Sitting on kickbacks from item naming/supportership on a community that is still so pro-active is pretty disheartening. I still hope this is NOT the case, but the silence can be deafening.

The majority of us have been trying to improve things with what we have, NS has been doing so much, Ver with the fight feed, people with referrals, suggestions, etc. and I think a lot of us have already been doing this 'PCouncil' concept with NS already through CM. This is a good idea, if kept simplistic like most agree, but at the same time I think the solution that everyone is really striving for in all of these types of threads is someway to have the game resurrected to the way it was before, and for that non-biased voice to take charge of the big issues once again and come in and say "No, that will not be considered" or "Yes that is a good idea" or "Changemonth this time includes the following: !!" Some say change can be hard, but heck if it doesn't work, change it back next time. The ideas that everyone bring to the table here are astounding and should be given some kind of opportunity.

I was having second thoughts about posting this, but seeing yet another "I miss how CB was" thread and Sox's devoted optimism in another regarding the lack of change... I just think we all deserve some answers why things aren't moving forward.

Mythology [The Knighthood] February 26 2010 3:00 AM EST

Just to let you know, had a heavy one at work this week and planned to sort it this weekend, if you haven't cm'd me or posted on here by then... :)

QBRanger February 26 2010 9:14 AM EST

Kevlar stated what I most of us are thinking perfectly.

Zenai February 26 2010 9:45 AM EST

Kevlar: I agree with you but I think there is a section of things not seen here.

Time: NS needs time. With that time given back to him NS will have a less steep learning curve. I've seen it several times in chat and mentioned lightly in forums. Jon is teaching NS .sql which from what I understand is the backbone of CB code. The faster he is able to learn it the faster the future changes will come.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Jon IS handing the CB Mantle over so to speak. The idea would be NS knowing/understanding how to do the changes would make it eeasier to understand AND get feedback from Jon.

So instead of NO changes and Flat No's to everything there will be more chances to get things done. Even when NS does get the code down pat he will STILL need time the CB PC would at least partially do just that.

I see this as a win/win for CB in the long run.

QBRanger February 26 2010 11:06 AM EST

174 active users from the past 7 days. Down from 220 before xmas.
I hope there is a long run.

Zenai February 26 2010 11:47 AM EST

Those numbers have fluctuated in that range for the past 2 years Ranger so nothing new there. Hopefully this CB PC can make a difference in those numbers. That. Should be one of many goals to achieve. Overall the CB PC needs a chance before being auto-doomed to failure. A chance to get organized, get goals set and most importantly get feedback from NS on what he is looking for them to do.

kevlar February 26 2010 2:41 PM EST

But why aren't they seen here, Z? It's because there has become this huge lack of communication about the game for some reason. Now what you said means only something because it is coming from you, but honestly if someone (Jon/NS) was able to share that information with you... and it is able to be posted in the forums... shouldn't they be able to tell EVERYONE and give us a little insight on what's going on? Saying the community needs to be patient while NS learns .sql and give more time, is pretty funny being that we all never knew NS needed time and that Jon was teaching NS .sql. No?

And what are NS thoughts on after he does learn .sql? Are we moving forward with things?

Sorry, Z, but there is still a huge void. And I'm not trying to detract to the PCouncil idea... it just doesn't make sense that if this is implemented, and ends up having all the components to making a difference... where are the people's opinion on who the PC will report to that will end up making the overall difference? In CM's to you?

This is one thread that NS should take the time to suffer through the posts he deems as 'garbage' and give his 2 cents on and help develop if the PC is indeed going to be answering to him, if he does think it's a good idea. Telling select things to select people through CMs has to be toned down and there needs to be an ambassador for the game again.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 26 2010 2:45 PM EST

And what are NS thoughts on after he does learn .sql? Are we moving forward with things?


Yes.

There's a lot in the pipeline. Like a Bonus change of some sort. A Score change, and more I've forgotten about.

What you seen to be asking for is some sort of Dev "Coming Soon" page.

I could get behind that. ;)

Maybe NS could give one of us tha tinformation for us to update the Wiki with.

But it would have to be heavily stipulated to not put any time contraints on the Devs...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 26 2010 2:48 PM EST

i made a post a few weeks ago regarding exactly that. kind of a non-binding to-do list.

i was waiting approval from ns for that and he never replied. i may bump that thread if i can find it!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 26 2010 2:50 PM EST

here it is, cannot bump it any longer though:
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xua

QBRanger February 26 2010 3:05 PM EST

Anytime there is more constructive conversation the better.

That is one of the main problems a lot of people had with the game. Little or none from Jon.

Not to attack Jon in any way, this was the way he did the game. But also, it did frustrate people to the nth degree.

If we as a community, are going to put together the time and effort to do a Player Council, I feel it is right to get input from the developers that they will listen to such a council and actively consider the decent ones.

Otherwise, we will be doing nothing more than wasting our time.

I am sorry if this sound negative and is putting a kibosh on this idea. However it is the reality of the situation.

kevlar February 26 2010 3:48 PM EST

lol GL, the 'coming soon' part of that made me laugh a little ;)

There's nothing to 'seem' about it... it would be nice to know what the heck is going on. Regarding this thread... a council answers to leadership... who are the leaders? Going silent, and then popping some surprise a year (or more) down the road is not the way to do it.

Ya ever stop to think that if the majority of the regular players have no idea what is going on... you wonder why the game suffers declines in the player base like it does? How are new players supposed to know what is going on?

Looking at the game Dominion, for some comparison, that everyone is talking about in that thread... they have a structure for suggestions in their forum, something I have alluded to previously. Suggestions seperate from general discussion to make them easier to find and reviewable for the admins if they wish to browse them.

And even though a round based game, and if just a few lines, the game owner Ross?, is actively posting in the 'announcements' section. Granted this isn't a round based game, and much prefer that... the changemonth we had from before seems to compare to the experience of switching rounds in that game. Keeps it fresh, exciting, interesting.

And as for a Dev page... these guys do it right: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/

I mean I'd like to see a changemonth timer counter on the main page of this website counting down the time until something new happens... or at least a static "2months 13 days until changemonth!", along with the Fight Feed (which Jon said he had planned months ago)

If you still don't seem to get what I mean... I'll put it in one sentence:

We either need Jon back, or need a new Jon.

(along with some more PR representation and communication with the game direction *sneaks that extra shtuff in there* ;)


{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 26 2010 3:55 PM EST

We either need Jon back, or need a new Jon.


I can get behind that.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 26 2010 3:57 PM EST

We've got a new Jon.

But he needs time.

kevlar February 26 2010 4:11 PM EST

We do, GL? Where is the post? Is there a time-frame we can look forward to?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 26 2010 4:13 PM EST

At your service! :D

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002TLG&all_p=1

Timescale: Soon (tm) ;)

kevlar February 26 2010 4:27 PM EST

:) My point exactly.

Zenai February 26 2010 6:18 PM EST

But why aren't they seen here, Z? It's because there has become this huge lack of communication about the game for some reason.


Some things are just not meant for the ENTIRE community to know IE if it IS your business you WILL know until then wait like the rest of us slobs.

Now what you said means only something because it is coming from you, but honestly if someone (Jon/NS) was able to share that information with you... and it is able to be posted in the forums... shouldn't they be able to tell EVERYONE and give us a little insight on what's going on?


The information I posted what what I got from snipits of conversation in Chat between NS and Jon and of course Forums. So I just happened to be in the right spot to be able to put 2 and 2 together nothing speacial about me Kev.
Saying the community needs to be patient while NS learns .sql and give more time, is pretty funny being that we all never knew NS needed time and that Jon was teaching NS .sql. No?


NS alluded to this in forums more than once and did say that he wished he had a stronger knowledge of .sql so he could make major changes.
And what are NS thoughts on after he does learn .sql? Are we moving forward with things?


His thoughts are his to play with as he chooses to be honest. However I would think there is a reason for him backing the CB PC, maybe would be why.
Sorry, Z, but there is still a huge void. And I'm not trying to detract to the PCouncil idea... it just doesn't make sense that if this is implemented, and ends up having all the components to making a difference... where are the people's opinion on who the PC will report to that will end up making the overall difference? In CM's to you?


The void is inconsequential to be honest and the idea is that the Community on the whole should NOT be in the know until those in charge deem it the right course of action. Nothing worse than saying one thing and it turns out to be something totally different. As far as the CMs to me well it is what it is and if that is the way it has to be then I will tackle that monster when it comes to it. I am nor afeared......lol
This is one thread that NS should take the time to suffer through the posts he deems as 'garbage' and give his 2 cents on and help develop if the PC is indeed going to be answering to him, if he does think it's a good idea. Telling select things to select people through CMs has to be toned down and there needs to be an ambassador for the game again.


Maybe NS could if he chose to but so far nope and that is his RIGHT to not answer to anyone's sense of entitlement. On an Ambassador to the Game what do you think the CB PC is supposed to be for? We have to have a chance for all of the things that needs to be done furthering this thread in a direction it is not meant for hinders action. Action is what everyone including you and me on many occassions have ask for from Jon/NS. This is the main reason NS backs a CB PC in the first place he needs time to take action the CB PC would enable him to do just that.

That is one of the main problems a lot of people had with the game. Little or none from Jon.Not to attack Jon in any way, this was the way he did the game. But also, it did frustrate people to the nth degree.


To a point what does that really matter, there have been many that have said that the way Jon did it was right. That his changes made CB a far cry above the rest because his changes were NOT from the LOUDEST CRYER in the Crowd but from strictly himself. Aside from this maybe the CB PC can change this slightly. Although we will not know if we cannot get the gears going :-/
If we as a community, are going to put together the time and effort to do a Player Council, I feel it is right to get input from the developers that they will listen to such a council and actively consider the decent ones.


NS has already given his consent how much more do you want/need? Devs do NOT have to do ANYTHING that they choose not to do period end of report folks. It would be a council NOT a democracy, IE they would be basically an advisory board that helps out according to what the devs want while trying to bridge the gap between Dev and Player.
There's nothing to 'seem' about it... it would be nice to know what the heck is going on. Regarding this thread... a council answers to leadership... who are the leaders? Going silent, and then popping some surprise a year (or more) down the road is not the way to do it.


I answered this above already.
Ya ever stop to think that if the majority of the regular players have no idea what is going on... you wonder why the game suffers declines in the player base like it does? How are new players supposed to know what is going on?


They are not supposed to know anything but what the wiki tell us all until the Devs decide it is withing the best interest of the game for them to know. Hash it out however you want bottomline no matter how much you bang your head against a wall it is still gonna hurt. You and all of us will know when it is time to know. Like I said above hopefully a CB PC will lighten this up a little and make for a better flow of communication but we will STILL be briefed on a NEED TO KNOW BASIS ONLY. All of will just have to wait.
Looking at the game Dominion, for some comparison, that everyone is talking about in that thread... they have a structure for suggestions in their forum, something I have alluded to previously. Suggestions seperate from general discussion to make them easier to find and reviewable for the admins if they wish to browse them.


It has been brought up a few times Kev and well Jon shot it down unmercifully, if NS is in agreement then oh well suck it up. Although I must say I really do wish that something like this could be set up, it took me well over an hour to put my Ideas of 09 Thread to gether. However I will not complain if that is what I have to do every month then that is what I will do. I have no idea how much time that would take away from something far more important codingwise.
And even though a round based game, and if just a few lines, the game owner Ross?, is actively posting in the 'announcements' section. Granted this isn't a round based game, and much prefer that... the changemonth we had from before seems to compare to the experience of switching rounds in that game. Keeps it fresh, exciting, interesting.


NS has been answering players left and right and has been extremely active. He is the new face of CB as it seems Jon is taking a back seat and letting NS run the show.
And as for a Dev page... these guys do it right: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/


Interesting and I think input is always a great thing however I do also believe that following a different path than the crowd is what made CB great in the first place.
I mean I'd like to see a changemonth timer counter on the main page of this website counting down the time until something new happens... or at least a static "2months 13 days until changemonth!", along with the Fight Feed (which Jon said he had planned months ago)


That is also an interesting idea, something to not for sure thankyou!
If you still don't seem to get what I mean... I'll put it in one sentence: We either need Jon back, or need a new Jon.


GL answers this far more eloquently and yet less verbose than I. :
We've got a new Jon. But he needs time.



As far as timescales and when when when, if one was given and people expected just that and something came up players would be mad due to a sense of entitlement. "Well you said we would get "X" at this time now where is it?" Get Jon/NS' Point? Soon is what we get, so we are not ALL throwing temper tantrums of "I want, I want, I want!" Inevitably some still will but at least it is not Sitewide which is what an Open Timescale prevents.

Vicious Cat February 26 2010 6:26 PM EST

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again

Change it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fall that's all
But the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie

Do ya?


There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Meet the new Jon
Same as the old Jon

Zenai February 26 2010 6:40 PM EST

VC: That was highly unnecessary. Aside from a seriously unneeded deviation on this thread NS backs a CB PC. I never saw Jon do this personally, so same old Jon I think not.

By the way in case you forgot his name is NightStrike not Jon it was merely a reference......

QBRanger February 26 2010 6:59 PM EST

Z,

Have you ever thought that we as a community, who keeps this game going, should have some information as to when things will improve? When changes will occur?

Zenai February 26 2010 7:06 PM EST

Have you ever thought that we as a community, who keeps this game going, should have some information as to when things will improve? When changes will occur?


Ranger yes of course I do why do you think I backed the idea of a Player Council in the first place? The problem here is how much "WE" as a community should know? My opinion is with Jon/NS it should be CURBED to a Need to know basis. Knowing things do not always make things better Ranger sometimes not know does. One of the Purposes of a CB PC would be to try and find the Happy Medium in this information hungry community.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 26 2010 8:33 PM EST

i see this as a pretty simple issue, if jon & nightstrike think it will help them then we go for it. if not, then it is pointless. this is why i had stated in the earlier thread that perhaps ns should just appoint the council.

i did send myth a cm with my willingness to help if that is what is best for the game. if not then i hope that whoever does get chosen makes a difference and i will support them and cb as i have always done. ; )

kevlar February 27 2010 12:01 AM EST

Z, you don't have to go off and start preaching "suck it up" and "you'll have to wait" etc... we have sucked it up and have been waiting, and have been trying to help all along the way.

Sure some things should be as a need to know basis, but there are some things that should be known, shared, and all wrapped up as something to look forward to. I'm glad you have the patience to gather all the 'snippits' from the forums and put them into a cohesive story that makes sense... but that shouldn't even have to need to be done.

Mythology [The Knighthood] February 27 2010 8:03 AM EST

Thank you to those kindly offering their time and support, sorry if didnt get have time to reply to you.

Zenai February 27 2010 8:49 AM EST

Kev,

I'm not preaching anything to be honest. I am however stating what is obvious bro.

1) The inner mechanics of this game are NOT for the general playerbase.

2) NS does support a Player Council.

3) A PC can enable a great number of things including better communication.

4) A visible effort to make things happen ARE in progress ie the CB PC.

5) Have a bit of patience and give the CB PC a chance to get up and running.


In a lot of ways players in this thread are thinking there is a disagreement going on when there really is not. The only overall thing here that is being rebuffed is the "I want answers now!" Mentality. Yes we have ALL waited and yes to a point we are ALL frustrated but jumping the gun when the CB PC has not even had their first meeting is a bit much.

I said it before I will say it again "Time is needed for things to be set in place."

Now a piece of advice folks stop while the stopping is good. If things get pushed to much then Jon/NS just might say screw a CB PC and player input at any level. We all should get that picture. already, Jon has not exactly invited anything from anyone over the years. Especially from the general playerbase. At least NS is considering this venture at all, which I think is a definite plus for CB.
As others have told me I will now tell all of you: Take a step back and a deep breath so you can see things in a different light.

An effort IS being made.

QBRanger March 7 2010 7:57 AM EST

Well since this is in place now,

Who may I ask are the people on the Council?

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 7 2010 9:01 AM EST

though I can't speak for NS or the council nor do I know the inner discussions I think they're leaning toward the council being a lot more low key than I had in mind which is probably a lot better.

As far as im aware the council will act to help NS as much as possible and Zenai will be there to take the flak if anything :P

I could be completely wrong. The main thing is NS didn't have the time to look at 100+ threads and gather all the info he needed, now hopefully he has a small team helping sort through and bring important / interesting things to his attention. So perhaps not a very public body more behind the scenes, either way will hopefully get the job done :)

QBRanger March 7 2010 9:16 AM EST

Can someone else answer my question then?

Who is on the council?

After all these posts and extremely high hopes of getting things done, can we at least have some knowledge of whom is on this thing?

Or is this yet another super secret part of CB that the common people cannot know about?

AdminShade March 7 2010 9:24 AM EST

I don't know anything about this, I must be common people as well :)

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 7 2010 9:57 AM EST

Ranger as you derailed my original post about the player council about it not being a good idea, who's "extremely high hopes" are you exactly talking about?

QBRanger March 7 2010 10:07 AM EST

Everyone else who posted in the thread.

But instead of distracting from my question, can you or someone else please answer it?

Who is on the council? Or is it a secret for reasons we cannot know?

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 7 2010 10:25 AM EST

If I were on the council I'd probably ask to be anonymous so as not to be treated differently.

You were against the council now you're just annoyed you don't know whos on it...

If people have extremely high hopes for the council then all they have to do is wait and hopefully not have them dashed, please do not try to speak "for CB" or it's populace.

QBRanger March 7 2010 10:32 AM EST

So basically the answer to my question is that we as a community cannot know who is on the council due to the fact of what?

That you want to be anonymous?

Whether or not I was against such a council, you appear to be quite reluctant to answer my simple question.

You seem to be very antagonist towards me due to the fact I did not fall head over heels for your idea of a council. Get over it.

I just asked a simple question and it is you that is making it a big production.

All I wanted was a simple answer and I get this run a round about this or that.

If you cannot answer the question of who is on the council, just say so.

Geee, and people wonder why some get fed up with this game.

AdminTitan March 7 2010 10:33 AM EST

Who is on the council?
(There now it's not just Ranger who wants to know.)

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 7 2010 10:59 AM EST

Some people believe to help a game and community you spend time doing everything you can to help out. I asked for people to put their names forward to do just that and work directly with NS to gather information for him.

You may feel I am 'creating a big production' I have answered your questions quite simply and calmly, your issue is the answer does not fit into your play book.

The council members may wish to carry out their duties without being in the public eye, this is a problem because?

QBRanger March 7 2010 11:05 AM EST

The council members may wish to carry out their duties without being in the public eye, this is a problem because?

If the council and NS wish it to be anonymous that is fine. A simple answer in the beginning would have been easiest rather than the run around I had gotten.

Personally I think that is the wrong way to go. I would think openness and honesty would be much better than secrecy. To let people know things are on a path rather than a "I have a secret" type of mentality.

But what do I know? And this is one of the reasons I was against this thing to begin with.

Which was one of the complaints the community had about the way things were run in the past? Jon kept things too close to the vest. Some did like that method, but at least we did have changemonths routinely. Now we have no idea what is going on.

I had hoped, as have others I have chatted with, that with NS things would be more open and forth coming.

Apparently that is not the case.

For a game with such a small player base as CB, I would have hoped for a different approach to such a "Player Council". Again I have to be disappointed.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] March 7 2010 11:12 AM EST


I am the council.

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 7 2010 11:18 AM EST

To be honest Ranger, I fully expected my last post on the council was going to be a "say hello to your new council" and introduce it's members.

At the end of the day though you and I both forget a key point, the wishes of the people giving up their spare time to help out. If they give their time freely to help out, its up to them.

I'd hazard Ranger that as your stated initial problem with the council was that nothing would change and that they are currently asking for ideas for the new supporter item that you are just very hard to please and will generally be disappointed whatever people do.

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 7 2010 11:20 AM EST

Which I may also add is a problem I currently have and am trying to overcome :)

QBRanger March 7 2010 11:52 AM EST

At the end of the day though you and I both forget a key point, the wishes of the people giving up their spare time to help out. If they give their time freely to help out, its up to them.

I agree with almost your entire last post Myth.

However, with volunteering there is some expectations. I and others expected this to be a more open process than what was past in CB. At least from your posts on the idea and the general approval of its players. One should not volunteer with conditions. Either do it or do not.

I had hoped for more of a new ideas and openness that was not present previously.

I had thought your posts about the CPC were lucid and very thoughtful. My pessimism was based upon the standards in CB that I have come to see over the years.

And what is becoming of the CPC and the interactions with people I know that are on it, show that nothing at all has changed. The same closed minded thinking that I have come to loath in CB.

Yes, the new thread on the supporter items is great. However, some things have to be addressed before some items can be suggested or even utilized. Otherwise it would be wasting players time and effort to suggest them. I tried to bring this up with a "council member" and all I got was a run around. Then I got a nice lecture about how I was to shut up and just do as the council suggests, without knowing who is on it or what they are trying to do.

But, it is NS and Jon's game 100%. I can just state my opinion on trying to make things more fun for the player and making the game more open. Which could do nothing but make things more fun for the players and try to increase the player base. One huge complaint I get from people trying this game is the lack of communication we have from the developers. Other games have boards where there is back and forth.

Now with the CPC to be a new layer between the players and the developers we do not even know who are on it? To me that makes little sense. Be anonymous because they do not want to be bothered? Then do not volunteer to be on the council. Openness is never a bad thing when trying to make a game more player friendly.

In the end, to me now it does not matter much. I am just tired of the same crap over and over again. And now with this CPC and the "I have a secret" type of mentality, it shows nothing has changed.

So much so, Heroes and all my stuff will be given away so and I will leave CB to the delight likely of most of the people.

And I guess all the political conversations can be friendlier and more cohesive.:)

Zenai March 7 2010 12:31 PM EST

However, with volunteering there is some expectations. I and others expected this to be a more open process than what was past in CB. At least from your posts on the idea and the general approval of its players. One should not volunteer with conditions. Either do it or do not.


Ranger it is far better to have something than nothing. This is indeed a process and it will take time. You are expecting to go from completely nothing being told to being completely open. That is just not an acceptable or even feasible expectation even in an extreme case.
I had hoped for more of a new ideas and openness that was not present previously.


This will happen but in time, NS/Jon and the CPC have to feel things out first and honestly that doesn't happen overnight.
I had thought your posts about the CPC were lucid and very thoughtful. My pessimism was based upon the standards in CB that I have come to see over the years.


Therein lies the biggest problem Ranger stop setting everything beside the standards of the past, we are trying to move forward, how about instead of anchoring us down you give a push.
And what is becoming of the CPC and the interactions with people I know that are on it, show that nothing at all has changed. The same closed minded thinking that I have come to loath in CB.


Because you are expecting things right now Ranger you have a serious patience problem. We are pioneering uncharted country in CB and you are expecting a Metropolis right now.
Yes, the new thread on the supporter items is great. However, some things have to be addressed before some items can be suggested or even utilized. Otherwise it would be wasting players time and effort to suggest them. I tried to bring this up with a "council member" and all I got was a run around. Then I got a nice lecture about how I was to shut up and just do as the council suggests, without knowing who is on it or what they are trying to do.


No you were asked to let it go after you persisted for well over an hour to get an answer out of me. I said what I said and I stood by it Ranger, once again this was a Ranger wants to get his way kind of thing.
But, it is NS and Jon's game 100%. I can just state my opinion on trying to make things more fun for the player and making the game more open. Which could do nothing but make things more fun for the players and try to increase the player base. One huge complaint I get from people trying this game is the lack of communication we have from the developers. Other games have boards where there is back and forth.


This is something being worked on Ranger. Once again it takes time.
Now with the CPC to be a new layer between the players and the developers we do not even know who are on it? To me that makes little sense. Be anonymous because they do not want to be bothered? Then do not volunteer to be on the council. Openness is never a bad thing when trying to make a game more player friendly.


I am clearly in the open Ranger. By the way no openness is NOT always the best thing, sometimes it circumvents progress to begin with. This is a prime example of not understanding things Ranger because you will not see a point of view other than your own.
In the end, to me now it does not matter much. I am just tired of the same crap over and over again. And now with this CPC and the "I have a secret" type of mentality, it shows nothing has changed.


I will point to two of my posts above they answer this concisely.
So much so, Heroes and all my stuff will be given away so and I will leave CB to the delight likely of most of the people.


Not really Ranger, I will miss the side of you that is not so completely Jaded. You have changed over the years and I cannot say it is all for the good.
And I guess all the political conversations can be friendlier and more cohesive.:)


Political conversations have never been cohesive beyond a certain point.

QBRanger March 7 2010 12:36 PM EST

Z,

Nothing so far has changed my thinking.

The CPC seems very hush hush and super secret. Yes, I as well as Myth it seems, wanted something more open to start. And this starting out super secret on even its members gives no impression of things changing.

How does one expect change when from the beginning it is the same old crap.

And again Z,
I never tried to get the answer you think I wanted. I just stated my opinion on something and you did not let it go. You went on and on and on some more.

Right now, I could care less about this whole council. But the start seems to be nothing like Myth stated.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 7 2010 2:32 PM EST

Wow, a lot of posts while I was asleep.

I won't try to speak for anyone else on this subject until we get a bit more organized, but to help inform I am also on the CPC.

I hope this helps clear the waters a little bit.

Zenai March 7 2010 5:14 PM EST

Ranger:

The conversation we had was not a slight to you that I could not tell you something. I erred on the side of not saying something. Of course this could have been handled in a better/different way. I would rather make a mistake and fix it rather than do absolutely nothing at all or cause problems on two sides by blabbing. I stepped up and did what I felt was necessary and stood my ground on it. I apologize that I did not handle it better and hopefully that will not be the issue in the future. On the CPC being Announced I was surprised just as well as Nem when that did not happen. So no you are not alone in this Ranger. Steps to correct this are already in place. On that I hope it marks the beginning of what we envisioned to start for the CPC better/more Communication.

QBRanger March 7 2010 5:24 PM EST

You never get a 2nd chance at a first impression.

And the first impression of things of the CPC is from my view very poor.

And frankly Z, you as the mouthpiece of CB is a poor decision. Just like having me or novice be the same.

AdminNightStrike March 7 2010 5:55 PM EST

I told you in a chatmail that Z was not a mouthpiece for anything. Please don't continue spreading a false rumor. He apologized, enough is enough. Thread locked.

(After I post this and then do the edit thingy...)
This thread is closed to new posts.