Bring your RB Suggestions and Post/Link them Here! (in General)


Zenai November 13 2010 1:44 PM EST

This is going to be the site for all of the Rolling Bonus Suggestions posted in CB! The Idea is to get everyone to link them or Post them here.

Bring it on!

Lord Bob November 13 2010 1:59 PM EST

No rolling rewards bonus, but wider BA regen rates, with base rewards constant through each "step." That way lower players will have an opportunity to advance up to the higher ranks, but with lots of time and effort. How much time and effort will be dependent on how wide the BA rates are, and I'm not here to suggest a specific number.

This will also require a change in the clan points, so that higher MPR players with much lower BA rates aren't drowned out by low MPR teams with a lot more BA.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 13 2010 2:15 PM EST

May I ask why? Is this something being picked up by the CPC to try to get implemented, or are we just rehashing what's already been said a billion times already for no real reason?

Is a RB something NS is looking to implement? If not, then there's no point to this unfortunatley.

Lord Bob November 13 2010 2:22 PM EST

For those of us who hate the N*B and want to see it replaced: we'll stop bringing it up when it finally happens.

And even if it is futile, ideas that are not going to get implemented are traded around here more than $CB. No sense trying to stop it.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 2:24 PM EST

I can't speak for the CPC or NS, and I'm probably not supposed to talk about what they discuss in there, but I'm able to see their group.

But simply put, NS is interested in player retention, of course, and he does recognize that there are issues with the current bonus implementation. I do know that he and the CPC have discussed this.

The problem that we all have, and that he likely has, is finding a superior worthwhile implementation; not only that, but creating an exact formula and balancing such an implementation to make it 'fair' as far as that word can be used for a bonus system.

So yeah, no matter how you look at it, a GOOD compilation of these bonus theories and summaries of each is very good from a developer's point of view, allowing him to evaluate, understand, and compare each and see if there is a viable solution there.

What I hope we finally see here - because honestly, no matter how MANY there have been, none of the past threads have accomplished this - is a listing, linking, and summarization of the various theories our community has come up with as solutions to fix or replace the current bonus.

Maybe it would even been good to summarize up the problems with the bonus here, as well, so we can see what needs fixing and so that what doesn't *actually* need fixing can be discarded as problematic.

Zenai November 13 2010 2:24 PM EST

Well there is a ton of Ideas out which in itself is a problem.....too many to read and as such are just left by the wayside. CPC no although they are more than welcome to join, it is actually a joint effort by me and OB to streamline and hopefully offer up something to NS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 13 2010 2:58 PM EST

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0036yS&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0036Pd&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002r8U&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002qf9

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002opm

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002oa6&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002nNE&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002YuQ&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002TNY

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Rsj&all_p=1

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002MfW

My Poll;

http://www.carnageblender.com/poll/poll-results.tcl?poll_id=464


And here's Rangers original;

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002BqM

(Around the time Ranger posts that, I posted an idea about using an uncapped Challenge Bonus as the rolling bonus, but I can't find it, due to the removal of search on my user pages discussion posts)

Demigod November 13 2010 3:01 PM EST

+1 Gl

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 13 2010 3:03 PM EST

Found it;

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002BqO

And;

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Bk6

Knock yourself out guys...

QBOddBird November 13 2010 3:04 PM EST

awesome GL! :D

Lord Bob November 13 2010 3:39 PM EST

You guys forgot the two best threads in the history of CB:
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002WUO

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002WZI&all_p=1

Sickone November 13 2010 4:57 PM EST

There are quite a few ideas, and some or at least aspects of some will certainly work better than what we have today.
There's a big list of links a bit above with a few of the more recent ones, but I bet those are not the only ones.

The question is however... what chances are there ANYTHING will be done about it ? I mean, seriously, is there at least a 10% chance something MIGHT change in the next year ? Somehow, after all this time, I find it hard to believe.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 13 2010 5:07 PM EST

This will also require a change in the clan points, so that higher MPR players with much lower BA rates aren't drowned out by low MPR teams with a lot more BA.

The (stupdily ineffectual) Drop System is now a thorn in the side of this idea.

I say just remove the drop system. It's never been any good anyway.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 5:09 PM EST

The (stupdily ineffectual) Drop System is now a thorn in the side of this idea.

No its not. The % chance is modified by your BA regeneration rate.

Sickone November 13 2010 5:09 PM EST

The bottom line, the one common thread in all those ideas is that the "disposable teams" mentality needs to be exorcized.

At any given time in a team's life, a higher MPR team should always be a better choice than a lower MPR team (after taking into account retraining MPR loss and assuming no minion count differences).
What this means is that if we have a situation where if we have two teams of nearly identical strategies and gameplay performance but different MPRs, the lower MPR team should never be able to get to a higher MPR than the initially higher MPR team. The only way that should be possible is if the higher MPR team performs worse, gameplay wise.
In yet another set of words, ALL teams of a certain MPR level should have IDENTICAL bonuses regardless of team age, be it one day or 5 years old, as long as the MPR is the same, the bonus should be the same (at least XP-wise).


Everything else is just details.
Really.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 5:10 PM EST

I say just remove the drop system. It's never been any good anyway.


Agreed, I would find far more use in getting back that 20% cash rewards. I know I'm not making that up in dropped katanas.

Sickone November 13 2010 5:11 PM EST

The drop system was a stupid idea, but that's a story for another thread, not this one.

Lord Bob November 13 2010 5:16 PM EST

I say just remove the drop system.
Yes.

The bottom line, the one common thread in all those ideas is that the "disposable teams" mentality needs to be exorcised.
2000 pounds of Yes.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 5:18 PM EST

I disagree with that philosophy sickone. I disagree with pushing everyone up just because they are lagging behind. Instead what I see as the problem is that it is way to easy to reach the maximum potential. So instead of pushing up the people falling behind increase the potential so that it is possible to significantly grow better than others.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 5:22 PM EST

Just two different approaches to the same goal, personal philosophy on which approach is idealistically better is kind of irrelevant to the goal of presenting ideas for evaluation when we have little bearing on which is decided upon

Zenai November 13 2010 5:27 PM EST

^-----What he said is the idea here, it would be great to stick to it.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 5:53 PM EST

Keep in mind we would have gotten that 20% cash reduction regardless.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 13 2010 6:06 PM EST

Keep in mind we would have gotten that 20% cash reduction regardless.

No we wouldn't. Jon specifically stated the 20% reduction was becuase of the drops.

Soz Nat, forgot the % was already amended for BA rates.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 13 2010 7:02 PM EST

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00370E

Some good thoughts in here

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 13 2010 8:03 PM EST

when shade & i were doing the feedback mailings no one stated the bonus issue as to why they weren't staying around. granted, they might not express it that way but we didn't even get an "i don't feel like i will ever be able to compete at the top".

with that being said, why do we think this will help with retention? would the energy be better spent on something else?

i hate to question the effort but i would really like to understand the direction this is going and why this direction was chosen. how will this actually help retention when people aren't staying around long enough to even realize they have way to catch up?

BadFish November 13 2010 8:17 PM EST

with that being said, why do we think this will help with retention?

It will help to retain older players who understand that the bonus system is flawed; you're right to point out that new player retention likely won't be affected.

Minnakht November 13 2010 8:31 PM EST

Here's how CB looks to an outsider:

1) Spend half a year trying to make a perfect run up the ranks. You can't retrain or miss a beat, or you'll be stuck with a sub-par team that will take years to advance.

2) Now that you've spent half a year on the fastest part of the game, settle into the routine of farming the same people over and over again. Nope, you can't change strategies, because that would kill your MPR.

3) Spend a few years to gather lots of money to run an NCB, and take off of work for 6 months so you can have a good run.




Minnakht November 13 2010 8:47 PM EST

I also have a question for all of you veterans out there: Why do you want to be in the Top 10?

Let's say I've run an awesome NUB, and broken the top spot. I've dedicated 6 months by waking up at 4 a.m., cruised the forums and auctions for good deals, and synchronized my time with the rest of the clan so I can get the best bonus possible.

Now I'm number one, and I get to fight the best teams out there!

Wait, what? I'm number one, but all I can do is grind teams around me, something that I've done several times a day for six months? Where's my world domination, my indomitable armies?

Zenai November 13 2010 10:03 PM EST

You are a General of an Army of 1-4 Minions :-)

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 13 2010 10:10 PM EST

I don't see this game as a "make the top spot" game.
I see it as strategy, where i can adapt with 1-4 minions however i feel like.
I reckon the objective of this game should be to make the best strategy in your own opinion, rather then to be the "top" player in Carnage Blender.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 10:29 PM EST

That "How CB looks to an outsider" assessment is good.

Dudemus: There are already issues with how quickly a new player grows and has to change targets. For a very long time, there is no need for a Favorites list because any targets added to it would last less than a day. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to maintain a reasonable efficiency when fighting with a 1000% bonus? The only reason we aren't there is that the NUB length was increased dramatically. That's just a patch.

Add that to Arfbargle's post, and you have a couple of reasons why an alternative bonus system is desirable. Something that doesn't drop a new player off at the end of their bonus, something that doesn't demand 6 months of DONT MISS A THING OR YOU FAIL, and something that offers the ability to make another go at it if you -do- fail = these are desirable traits.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 13 2010 11:08 PM EST

you will get no arguments from me on the desirability and i myself have brought up the fact you just did.

none of that addresses the issue of new player retention though. we are getting from 6 to 12 new players every day. a good part of them never fight a single battle. the rest tend to quit after running out of ba the first time.

i would love to have a rolling bonus but i cannot pretend that would help new player retention in any manner.

once again we are running around like headless chickens trying to fix a problem that we haven't even defined yet.

we have limited dev time and an urgent need to spend it efficiently.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:15 PM EST

none of that addresses the issue of new player retention though.

Something that doesn't drop a new player off at the end of their bonus

something that doesn't demand 6 months of DONT MISS A THING OR YOU FAIL

1) Spend half a year trying to make a perfect run up the ranks. You can't retrain or miss a beat, or you'll be stuck with a sub-par team that will take years to advance.

While these clearly would not affect new players on their first day or anything, do you really feel that none of these would negatively affect a new player's mindset, that they aren't discouraged upon discovering or being told these things? That having to change targets so quickly because of an enormous bonus doesn't make fighting efficiently that much more of an impossibility?

I ask because that is how I see these things, and thus I do see the N*B as problematic to new player retention.

I agree that there are multiple issues, many that are far more obvious and immediate, that cause us to retain fewer players. I do, however, see this as one of those factors.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 11:22 PM EST

I don't see that as being a problem with the n*b but instead with what comes after the n*b with the normal game play.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 11:23 PM EST

If there were much more potential for shifting in the ranks in the normal game there would be no need to fix the n*b.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:24 PM EST

If there were much more potential for shifting in the ranks in the normal game there would be no need to fix the n*b.

I agree to an extent, except that the N*B is an ever-increasing bonus. That in itself poses a serious problem.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 11:26 PM EST

There is absolutely no way you can not have something permanently increasing OB. The top player's MPR is constantly increasing. Unless we create a cap somewhere something has to be constantly growing, either the amount of bonus or the amount of time spent with a bonus.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:28 PM EST

We've totally discussed this. Create a higher challenge bonus % cap and more score created per fight, or use the BA regen idea you had, or create a rolling bonus similar to the suggestions given in the many links here...none of these are an ever-increasing bonus, and they are solutions. The solution is for the bonus to NOT be permanently increasing.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 11:30 PM EST

none of my suggestions have been as a replacement of the n*b. Rather they were meant as a solution to the standard game.

QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:32 PM EST

wait, then why are we having this discussion again, this is a thread about the bonus system

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 13 2010 11:33 PM EST

And I am saying that's not where the real problem lies.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 13 2010 11:33 PM EST

my point though is that the vast majority never even stick around long enough to hear of these things, much less experience them. with that in mind, having the best damn bonus system in the world will not affect new player retention one iota.

i love the idea of reworking the bonus system or replacing it with a rolling bonus. for the longevity of the game though the work needed to do that might be better spent trying to get new player retention up. if we do that and increase the income to the game then more time could be spent doing the other things that are broken.

all i am saying is focus energy on the biggest payoff first. we have new players coming daily. let's find out why they don't stay and then do something about that!

QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:35 PM EST

And I am saying that's not where the real problem lies.

still not what the thread is about

QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:37 PM EST

let's find out why they don't stay and then do something about that!

I agree that this is also important, but disagree that this thread is the place for it

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 13 2010 11:40 PM EST

i only bring it up because you stated:

But simply put, NS is interested in player retention, of course, and he does recognize that there are issues with the current bonus implementation. I do know that he and the CPC have discussed this.



QBOddBird November 13 2010 11:47 PM EST

Yes, I mentioned that as one of the reasons that we have for trying to find an improved bonus.

The thread was intended to summarize suggestions regarding the bonus, not to discuss how we as players feel devs - or in this case, only one dev, really - should prioritize their time.

As you mentioned, there are other issues that are more obvious and more problematic for new player retention. I would be glad to help come up with ideas and solutions for what is causing a lack of retention in a thread about that topic. :)

Zenai November 14 2010 12:35 AM EST

none of my suggestions have been as a replacement of the n*b. Rather they were meant as a solution to the standard game.

True Nat but they can be modified to fix the current bonus problems as well and that is a good reason to revisit them.

BadFish November 14 2010 1:46 AM EST

Dudemus, while i think that retaining more new players would be extremely beneficial, lets face facts: CB is the type of game very few people like. Most new players realize that very very quickly and leave to find something more their cup of tea. For the people that do stay, we need to work on the flaws in the game that might make them leave, even if they like the type of game CB is.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2010 4:12 AM EST

there is no need for a Favorites list because any targets added to it would last less than a day.

A day?

It's one, or two fights if you're lucky, then you nedd to move up and find new targets.

Especially if you start with 1600 BA in eacky XP time, which you should.

All this is moot though, if you convince someone/a few people to purposley gimp a large unused characters for your to wail on.

Then you can have a favorites list.

horseguy001 November 14 2010 7:08 AM EST

A redo on the bonus system, as well as a redo on the tutorial is a must at this point. CB needs to adapt to an increasingly competitive F2P online gaming market, since nothing has really changed in the last 5 years or so of blending.

Hopefully this thread helps direct devs in what direction is appropriate and most beneficial, since in the end it is their opinions that matter the most.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2010 7:57 AM EST

CB needs to adapt to an increasingly competitive F2P online gaming market

Indeed. Stuff I've come across that should be mentioned are Sonny 1/2 (although not *really* MMO), a planned MMO clone of it by another company called Apocalyx, Sacred Seasons 2, Dragon/Adventure/Mech/Whatever Quest, Runescape, S&F, Estiah (Mine Things?). And many more I'm sure to have missed.

All F2P online MMOs which don't require downloads, and while you can use cash to get ahead in them, really don't require it. Cash is usually used to unlock special extra (like classes, inventory slots, etc) but you don't *need* to play the game.

Add to the Facebook games like Mafia Wars and Castle Age (and all the multitude variation of the Energy for questing, Stamina for PvP, types), where you can buy 'coins' to get stuff, but you don't need to.

In castle age, there's actually dedicated player who farm the cash bought 'coins' in game, so they can play the same way, without having to spend any RL cash.

There's a wealth of competition out there for CB, and CB just hasn't kept up with them.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0037cY">Bring your RB Suggestions and Post/Link them Here!</a>