Exp. Shot Forced Respawns (in General)


QBOddBird December 21 2007 2:28 PM EST

There have been eight forced respawns of Explosive Shot in the past 24 hours.

No natural respawns, all forced.

Thanatos December 21 2007 3:17 PM EST

I like the fact that you are watching.

But, when you say something like this give names and proof,
I could say the sky is blue how would you know if I heard that from someone else or seen it for my self.

I suspect some pain is coming for the people that continue to abuse this, maybe it will come as a Christmas pressent.

Ulord[NK] December 21 2007 3:25 PM EST

checked the purchase log. It seems these forced refreshers are just people going to store buying all the iron shots (presumably to use), then made a second trip and predictably all the explosive shots came out. I wonder how hard it is to move explosive shots into auction. We all agreed that that is the solution to the problem. Make it spawn like any other rares and unlinked from store purchases.

Keep in mind it is christmas though so Jon might not have time for it.

QBOddBird December 21 2007 3:31 PM EST

Thanatos - the proof is in the Store Purchase Log. Community > Store Purchase Log.

There's no need to post their names. =) Anyone who wishes to know can look for themselves quite easily.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 21 2007 4:27 PM EST

First of all I think the case is they will not spawn unless iron shots are bought.... and nobody except a few buy iron shots to use anyways. So if no one buys Iron shot there is no store refresh... but I'm not sure thats the case... And I will flat out admit that I buy iron shot to use and the Exp shot to sell... If there is something wrong with that then let Jon say so.

Otherwise I don't like the fact that people are saying stuff about people getting fines or getting reset... There is no proof that what is being done is wrong. The store was set up to Refresh Exp shot when Iron shot is bought... so I'm sure Jon had thought of this before hand... When Jon weighs in I will understand what he has to say and go by that... but until then I will buy Iron shot and use it and sell the exp shot I find since there is nothing wrong with that.

QBRanger December 21 2007 4:43 PM EST

Hey, I like it.

I just look at the store logs and go to the store about a min after someone tries to force a spawn.

Free money!!!!

AdminNightStrike December 21 2007 4:52 PM EST

I'm guessing that this will continue up until the point at which I finish jockeying characters around so I can get that giant named SOD off of one of my retired chars.......

Murphy's Law, and all that...

Colonel Custard December 21 2007 4:58 PM EST

Since this thread was started, there have been at least 3 forced spawns (in the last hour on the store log). I don't know if bringing it up is helpful.

Ulord[NK] December 21 2007 5:07 PM EST

I think raising the issue is very helpful. The point is to put the problem in the open. If the abuse really gets severe, then the urgency of fixing the problem would also increase. More attention = faster fix. Besides, you can't simply bury your head in the sand hoping the problem will go away. It won't.

Colonel Custard December 21 2007 5:09 PM EST

I know. I wasn't saying ignore it. I'm just saying that the store log seems to indicate that, with forums moved to the homepage, people log in, see this right at the top there, and think "Hey, I better go spawn me some Ex. Shot!"

Colonel Custard December 21 2007 5:10 PM EST

It was less an accusation/criticism and more just something I thought was funny at the time.

Ulord[NK] December 21 2007 5:13 PM EST

Heh I guess it should be said that willfully exploiting the ex shot situation may not be the smartest thing to do right now. Nobody is clear about the legality of it right now and it sure as hell feels like an exploit. It'd be smart to steer clear. At least I will.

Lord Bob December 21 2007 7:24 PM EST

"No natural respawns, all forced."

Not sure if it was natural or not, but I just picked up about 5000 ExShots from the store without forcing anything. They were just there when I went in.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] December 21 2007 7:33 PM EST


Well, if we _all_ do it, and exp shot is plentiful, then doing it for resellers profit or play advantage won't be an issue, will it?

Frost December 21 2007 7:37 PM EST

i think so

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2007 7:44 PM EST

Ammo cap anyone?

Frost December 21 2007 7:49 PM EST

sorry for the repost i mean i agree with what Bast said that it wouldnt be a problem

QBOddBird December 21 2007 7:55 PM EST

"There is no proof that what is being done is wrong."

"Nobody is clear about the legality of it right now and it sure as hell feels like an exploit."

Did I miss something in a Changemonth? Look.

Old Changelog -- in this post, Jon states that stores are no longer refreshable. Clearly his intent was to design the stores in a manner that one could not cheat by forcing respawns, as had been done in CB1.

In this thread, we get the following quotes:

Adminbartjan, May 25
If you prefer to use Seeker bolts, but none are available right now, then why on earth fully stock regular bolts? Just buy 1 or 2 small bundles, should last a couple of hours. Anything more than that is gaming the system.

Adminbartjan, May 25
*selling* is not the part we have problems with. It's the *buying* part.

AdminG Beee, May 25
In the good old days this used to be considered as forcing the store to spawn rares and was punishable with a hefty fine and item confiscation. I've not seen examples of this on CB2, however by your own admission ("I buy the 7 biggest stacks of bolts. less than 5 minutes after that, a few stacks of seeker and slayer bolts ALWAYS spawn in the auction. So I bid on them and sell my bolts because which I don't need them anymore") this is how it works and the reason why you do it.

Please don't do it anymore :)


And in this thread, yet another Admin states that this is against the rules...

AdminShade, Nov 28
it has always been possible to do this, and no it is not legal...




So I ask again, how is this even an issue up for debate? Did I miss a changemonth or something?

AdminNightStrike December 21 2007 8:03 PM EST

So what's the allowable way to buy exshot?

Thanatos December 21 2007 8:16 PM EST

Buy it, and use it up.

No problem

Buy it and sell it back to store

Problem


The best solution is to base it on all ammo bought.

I buy one bundle see if it spawned. Use it up buy another check and use it up. Have had no luck in getting any this week.

I keep one and sell the rest, when I get 8,000 to 10,000 Ex Shot.

AdminNightStrike December 21 2007 8:46 PM EST

"Buy it and sell it back to store

Problem"

Not according to bart's post that OB quoted. There, bart says that selling is ok and buying is the problem. You are saying that buying is ok and selling is the problem.

Why is it so incredibly difficult to have a clear, concise, accurate rule for the game so that everyone, admins and players, know exactly what is allowed and what isn't? Every single thread on this topic is filled with people who all have different ideas about what is right, what isn't, what is allowed, what is against the "rules". Why is this game so focused on ambiguity?

QBOddBird December 21 2007 8:54 PM EST

Um...Thanatos isn't an admin, NS. Bartjan is.

AdminNightStrike December 21 2007 8:58 PM EST

I didn't say he was, OB.

Windwalker December 21 2007 10:01 PM EST

I have commented on posts like this one before (explosive shot forced spawn)and the best suggestion I have heard is to move them to auctions. This would resolve the 2 main reasons people force this item.The first being it doesn't come up enough (as is) for the people who use them. They actually have a SoD and use them.The second is to make some quick cash.Either way it is being exploited.I do find it kinda funny that the ones that complain the most don't use them or sell them?

QBOddBird December 21 2007 10:02 PM EST

Then where did the rant come from? To paraphrase:

He says one thing, you say another. Why isn't everything clear, everyone's got different positions and I don't know what's right!


My point is that you can't treat what Thanatos says regarding a rule in CB and what bartjan says regarding a rule in CB as equal. One is an admin, one is not.

QBOddBird December 21 2007 10:04 PM EST

I have to agree with you, Windwalker....I'd rather see them moved to auctions, or the store refresh fixed to work like it was apparently intended to - based on the number of fights.

Ulord[NK] December 21 2007 10:08 PM EST

I think we've all agreed that's the best solution. I seriously don't see the downside of this, and I'd like to hear from Jon as to why if he is intentionally going to leave things the way it is. Right now, my guess is Jon is busy with the holiday season and it's not really high on the priority list. He'll get to it eventually and we'll just have to be patient. I think all the admins are waiting on this issue as well.

Relic December 21 2007 10:46 PM EST

Exshots are very powerful and people are amassing quite a number of them via this exploit.

I vote to remove them from the game altogether and create a skill called demolitions which gives you a percentage chance of having your iron shots explode like an exshot, similar to the mageseeker bow and how is replaced seeker ammo.

Underage Drinking December 21 2007 10:58 PM EST

why change this or punish them its a good cash sink, they buy all the shots then sell them back and yea...sounds good to me. its like a new version of camping

Ulord[NK] December 21 2007 11:01 PM EST

You know what's a better cash sink? Remove the arbitrage opportunity entirely and let auctioneer reap the profit of all explosive shots sold. This is not camping. This is willful spawning of rares controllable by a CB user.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 22 2007 12:39 AM EST

Tell me something... Are Exp shot Rare? No they have been changed to normal ammo and spawn just like normal ammo! So if I want to buy all the arrows in the store will not more spawn? If I buy all the bolts in store will not more spawn? If I buy more iron shot will not more spawn? It just so happens that Iron shot and Exp shot are interlinked... So tell me is it wrong to buy up all the Arrows or all the Bolts or all the iron shot? Thread where rarity changed is Here

Charity December 22 2007 12:41 AM EST

It says their rarity has been decreased substantially.

Either way, all but the Jan 7. 2005 (near birth of CB2) threads have been since that date. That tells me there's a clear rule on it.

QBOddBird December 22 2007 12:43 AM EST

Ugh. I keep forgetting which account I am on whenever I post.


I would be the worst multi in the history of CB. x_x

Hyrule Castle December 22 2007 1:43 AM EST

maybe...just maybe i should camp the store and...buy up all the exp shots when they come...so people who force spawn them dont get them...

i have 15m , i could get a lotta exp shots with it...

AdminNightStrike December 22 2007 1:50 AM EST

"Either way, all but the Jan 7. 2005 (near birth of CB2) threads have been since that date."

The big thread (bart and G's comments) were from a thread dealing with seekers, which were rare items. Draco's point is that those threads don't apply to exshot, since it's not rare. The store abuse thing doesn't go away just because something is in auctions. In that thread, people were discussing using the store to cause spawns in auctions. If we move exshot to auctions, the whole Iron shot thing will still happen, and then it WOULD fall under the ideas in that post.

The bottom line is that the posts you are citing don't really apply for several reasons, the most important of which is that exhost isn't rare.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 22 2007 1:55 AM EST

ammo cap?

[P]Mitt December 22 2007 2:43 AM EST

I'm assuming that when seekers and slayers were linked to regular ammo, you could buy up all the normal arrows/bolts in the store and then they would spawn seekers/slayers in auctions, right?

So on that logic, I could go and buy up all the boots, gloves, cloaks and helmets in the armor store, and then CMLs and DBs and HoDs and EBs and ECs and SCs and HoEs and EGs would pop up in auctions, right?

Is that legal?

Forcing the store to refresh, i.e. buying items in the store for the sole purpose to spawn other, more desirable items (in this case, ex. shot) is not only unfair, it unbalances the game.

The game aspect of CB is all about the strategy and/or USD. Forcing ex. shots to spawn leaves no room for strategy. It's like giving all of your characters a free MH or BoTH.
Hell, while we're at it keeping the status quo where we can spawn ex. shot whenever the hell we want to, give us all a free set of supporter items. Personally, I'd like an MgS and an AoF, please.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 22 2007 2:44 AM EST

Are they buying iron shot in order to force a chance of ex shot spawning so that they can immediately buy them? Yes. Is it likely Jon will let it continue like this. No. Can you profit from this? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.

I don't think the category they fall into is very relevant, we all know what is happening.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 22 2007 6:16 AM EST

I'm with Novice on this on so: ammo cap?

QBJohnnywas December 22 2007 6:50 AM EST

The major problems I have with the forced spawns are:

1. It means the store does not spawn naturally, so the only people able to get ex shot are those forcing spawns.

2. A lot of those people forcing spawns are not even then putting them into auctions. So rarity rises, prices increase stupidly, and unless you are going to force a spawn you have no chance of buying your own.

3. Quite a few of the people forcing spawns aren't even using the shot in their teams.


Put em in auctions and give everybody the chance of getting hold of them.

And yes I know I'm biased. But I've managed to get hold of ex shot, constantly for the past 8 months or so. I'm not complaining on my behalf completely; it simply isn't fair on anybody else that wants to use them.

{CB1}-Mokaba December 22 2007 7:06 AM EST

We have a tattoo artist. Why not have a weapon artist that can change the Iron Shots for Explosive Shots for a price of course.
Then the whole problem is solved. :)

Godpanda December 22 2007 8:02 AM EST

Get rid of exshot all together. I'm sick of drawing to 800k teams because they deal splash damage FB can't even imagine....

If you all can't behave yourself with non-rare, easily obtainable, overpowered items, then you don't get them! :P

AdminNightStrike December 22 2007 10:22 AM EST

"while we're at it keeping the status quo where we can spawn ex. shot whenever the hell we want to, give us all a free set of supporter items. Personally, I'd like an MgS and an AoF, please."

Supporter items are rare. Exshot is not rare. You can have a set of leather armor whenever you want it, though... or any of the other non-rare items.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 22 2007 10:23 AM EST

make the new supporter item a sling with the effect of explosive shot and wipe all explosive shot from the game.

QBRanger December 22 2007 10:27 AM EST

Dude,

That would be highly unfair to those that bought a SOD and upgraded it.

I know you can make the seeker analogy, however the ELB in itself is still the most powerful missile weapon in the game. The SOD with iron shots are nothing better then a compound bow.

Either make exshots spawn in auctions or make the SOD have auto exshot ability.

I personally do not care which but this forced respawning is utter garbage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 22 2007 11:41 AM EST

pardon my denseness today i had too many margaritas for my birthday last night, but how is it more unfair than any new item introduction. i don't think you are saying introducing any new items into the game would be unfair due to investment in existing items so what exactly makes the sod especially unfair in this situation then?

QBRanger December 22 2007 11:50 AM EST

Happy Birthday a day late!

But people bought and upgraded the SOD for the express purpose of using exshots. Nobody bought it to use iron shots.

Removing exshots and making a brand new item with exshot capability is very unfair to those which SOD's right now.

Unlike the VB with its nerf, it still has usefulness. Even though it does less base damage, it still nerfs defenses by 50%. A SOD without exshots is no better then a compound bow.

QBJohnnywas December 22 2007 11:50 AM EST

Take away my ex shot and I've got a 30 million NW paperweight.

Happy birthday btw Dude!

Relic December 22 2007 11:56 AM EST

You wouldn't be the only one with a paperweight. There are plenty of those in the game. I like the demolitions skill idea better than a new item.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 22 2007 12:00 PM EST

hmm, i see it now, thanks for the clarity and for the b-day well-wishes!

what about converting sod to esod? explosive sling of david along with introducing it as a supporter item?

QBJohnnywas December 22 2007 12:03 PM EST

If Jon introduced an explosive sling and I could hand mine in as an exchange...I'd probably go for that, despite having invested a fair few dollars in my sling. I'd have to start a new char for that one though. Nice though an explosive sling was, a base one would be pretty useless to me right now lol. ;)

QBRanger December 22 2007 12:03 PM EST

Fine with me, but if you introduce a NEW supporter item, what do you propose we do with the existing SOD?

Why not just make the existing SODs auto exshot and introduce a different supporter item for most people to use?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 22 2007 12:15 PM EST

i meant that, convert existing sods to esod as well as introducing new base models as the supporter item.

QBRanger December 22 2007 12:17 PM EST

No real need to introduce it as a supporter item as all SOD's that spawn into auctions will have the new properties of auto ex shot ability.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 22 2007 12:18 PM EST

true enough i suppose. :)

[P]Mitt December 22 2007 12:39 PM EST

Keep in mind that when I say this, I don't own a SoD...

If Jon were to introduce a new supporter item that explosive-ied iron shots, I wouldn't have a problem.

If he were to do this, I think it would be like when Jon introduced the ELB in CB1 and many people had sunk millions into their Heavy Crossbows.

Perhaps change the SoD to make it hit the last minion first? As in some MM-type thing, and then put in a new supporter item that auto-made explosive shots, making it base 3 or 4?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 22 2007 1:50 PM EST

No lets make this even better get rid of special ammo all together and lets make a weapon with that ability
Like Jon did with
slayer arrows = ELB
seeker arrows = Mageseeker bow
(who used seeker bolts anyway?)
slayer bolts = EX/AX bow
EXP shot = SoD.
So give the SoD splash damage but nerf it down to 25%

Frost December 22 2007 2:09 PM EST

why would you nerf it?

QBRanger December 22 2007 2:11 PM EST

So, any final rulings on whether forced respawns are legal?

So far Jon has not replied and no actions have been taken on those doing the forcing. Therefore one may conclude that it is legal until we are told otherwise.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 22 2007 2:21 PM EST

In the past 24hours exp shot has been spawned 21 times of which 21 times forced. So how isn't this illegal yet? And I know with the NO AMMO CAP its easy to buy up all the iron shots you need, and if it happens to spawn exp shot like 5 minutes after that and you buy, omg coincidence! But you all know its not.

Admins no comments just answers!

Is this illegal? simple yes or no
If this is illegal is it punishable with a fine? yes or no?
If this is illegal should players stop doing this? yes or no?


three4thsforsaken December 22 2007 2:27 PM EST

if it is made illegal, I don't think an Honor system is enough. I think measures should be made in the game mechanics to stop it, or at least make it extremely non-profitable to try to exploit the system.

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] December 22 2007 2:30 PM EST

"If this is illegal should players stop doing this? yes or no?"

This one seems pretty obvious. =P

But I agree. If so many people have a problem with it and so many others are doing it, it would be a good thing to clearly establish once and for all if it's allowed or not. With the only ones who actually have a say in this not giving a clear answer, nothing gets solved. Even if it is perfectly legal, a clear answer would at least stop these threads from popping up every week.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 22 2007 10:25 PM EST

Like I already stated and given proof of... Exp shot are not Rare... they are like any other ammo... so it is in anyones right to buy Iron shot and buy Exp shot... If I want to buy all the iron shot to use... and pick up any Exp shot that spawns that is my choice the same as anyone else. There is nothing wrong with buying any and all ammo in the store that you want... and what most people are saying is they want a "law" against buying certain ammo that happens to spawn after other certain ammo is bought.

Now those that do send the iron shot to other users or sells it back to the store should be punished... but those that use that shot shouldn't. And just like anyone else it is their right to choose to sell Exp shot or keep it!

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] December 23 2007 7:24 AM EST

Noone is saying you can't buy Exp Shot. The issue is that people are buying Iron Shot for the sole purpose of forcing Exp Shot to spawn. This could be considered exploiting the spawn system.

Personally I don't care that much either way, to be honest, but like I said it would be a good thing to get some sort of official statement on wether or not it's considered an exploit (and thus illegal). As long as the admins remain silent and inactive in this matter it can only be assumed that they don't consider it a problem, but it would clear things up a bit if they just came out and said that.

j'bob December 23 2007 9:23 AM EST

The lack of response is disturbing, but another answer is that with it being a changemonth... a change (involving the shot) may be coming. ?

QBOddBird December 23 2007 12:08 PM EST

DrAcO, the thread you submitted stated that its rarity was decreased, not that it was common ammo. Besides that point, I believe explosive ammo was addressed in at least two of the threads that I dug up and posted earlier?

Either way, if one is doing something that exploits the weapons store, regardless of an individual rule about it, that person is likely to be labeled a 'cheater'. Isn't it better to just avoid such suspect activity altogether than to hedge one's bets that it is going to be 'found legal'?

(I still don't see how we're trying to "find out if it is legal or not", as I've already posted URLs where admins state that this is exploiting the system, btw.)

AdminNightStrike December 23 2007 2:30 PM EST

They state that doing it for rare ammo is contrary to the system...

And again, I ask the question. How does one go about buying ammo *properly*?

QBRanger December 23 2007 3:00 PM EST

"And again, I ask the question. How does one go about buying ammo *properly*?"

It is not a hard concept.

You buy the ammo you expect to use.

If you do not have a sling/SOD, do not buy iron shots to try to force a spawn.

If you have a sling/SOD, you buy as many iron shots you expect to use. You do not buy all the iron shots you see to force a spawn. And you certainly do not resell lots of iron shots back to the store.

AdminNightStrike December 23 2007 3:19 PM EST

I buy all the bolts I ever see in the store... and I keep a stack of about 100k of them..... Someone with a sling isn't allowed to do that? That doesn't sound right...

AdminNightStrike December 23 2007 3:20 PM EST

"If you do not have a sling/SOD, do not buy iron shots to try to force a spawn."

What if you want to sell a large stack of Iron Shot? You aren't allowed to? When you buy them, the exshot will spawn. You're not allowed to buy Exshot or Iron Shot, now, if you don't have a sling?

That's just silly....

QBRanger December 23 2007 3:23 PM EST

I never said you could not buy exshots. But why in the heck would someone without a sling/SOD ever buy iron shots?

Only to force a spawn.

AdminNightStrike December 23 2007 3:44 PM EST

Maybe they just want to amass a large stack of iron shot.

QBJohnnywas December 23 2007 4:21 PM EST

Move all the ex shot to auctions, return the ammo limit and put a halt to the selling back of iron shot to the store. Then we'll see how many people actually wanted that iron shot.

TheHatchetman December 23 2007 4:32 PM EST

"Maybe they just want to amass a large stack of iron shot. "

I'd like to... but i'd also rather not mess with the natural order... I'm working on a stack of 500k bolts to go with my 500k arrows... considering the price of ES, I'm gonna hav to settle for 500k IS, but i only buy when i see a lage stack of resold...

TheHatchetman December 26 2007 8:43 PM EST

Furthermore, has any even semi-definitive ruling been made of this? If so, what? If not, why not?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 27 2007 5:03 AM EST

"I buy all the bolts I ever see in the store... and I keep a stack of about 100k of them..... Someone with a sling isn't allowed to do that? That doesn't sound right..."

Another great problem created by removing the ammo cap, who's bright idea was this again?

Bring back the ammo cap and bam all the problems are gone. I don't care if you raise it to 25k, the ammo cap was there to keep lame people from exploiting the system like this. Now that is been removed what keeps the lamers from exploiting? Nothing. And now some are saying: why can't others buy up every iron shot there is like I do with bolts/arrows? (<sarcasm>omg the sling users can't do this, so unfair!!!</sarcasm>)

No I'm not going do answer this, this will only bring another heated discussion which only one answer can solve this. Ammo cap, pure and simple.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 5:11 AM EST

I'm sure the opportunity to exploit will be closed in due course.

An ammo cap won't eliminate the exploit as users will simply transfer unwanted purchased ammo to inactive characters if they're that way inclined.

Moving the exp shots to auctions will solve the problem. As would a few other options already suggested above...

AdminNightStrike December 27 2007 5:53 AM EST

"Moving the exp shots to auctions will solve the problem."

It sure didn't solve the problem for seekers......


One solution would be to make them spawn at the same rate as Iron Shot, but make them very expensive.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 6:11 AM EST

You're not comparing apples with apples NS.
We're talking about the issue of "forced respawns" in the store. Seekers don't spawn in the store, that's a whole different debate.

Relic December 27 2007 10:28 AM EST

What about simply removing the ability to buy right after a sell, that way if you sell something to the store you would not be able to buy anything for at least an hour or so.

Another view on exshots is that they are super powerful and do massive damage, their base price needs increasing for sure. I do not think they should be upgradeable. If their price was increased and they were made non-upgradeable then I have no problem with forced spawning.

Yukk December 27 2007 1:15 PM EST

Well, it still continues:
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 523 Explosive Shots ($261) 11:02 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 973 Explosive Shots ($486) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 897 Explosive Shots ($448) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 825 Explosive Shots ($412) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 813 Explosive Shots ($406) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 681 Explosive Shots ($340) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 766 Iron Shots ($176) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 747 Iron Shots ($172) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 721 Iron Shots ($166) 11:01 AM EST
Hivemind (Hivemind) 24.16.201.0 buy 715 Iron Shots ($164) 11:01 AM EST

The thing is, if you're using shots then in most cases, you'd be more than happy to use explosive shots instead so of course people are going to do this as long as they can.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 2:05 PM EST

Yukk, there's nothing wrong with that transaction.

QBRanger December 27 2007 2:11 PM EST

Does it really matter if the transaction is legal or not?

We still do not have a definite ruling on the matter from the one person who's opinion counts.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 2:18 PM EST

Don't worry Ranger, my opinion matters too :)

I've not seen one single example on this thread of a forced store refresh. I've seen it mentioned often, but nothing posted showing it. As per my previous quotes on this matter I will remain consistent and fine anyone I am aware of who's working an exploit.

drudge December 27 2007 2:18 PM EST

ok range, i'll chime in then....

its fine by me

AdminNightStrike December 27 2007 2:23 PM EST

"Don't worry Ranger, my opinion matters too :)

I've not seen one single example on this thread of a forced store refresh. I've seen it mentioned often, but nothing posted showing it. As per my previous quotes on this matter I will remain consistent and fine anyone I am aware of who's working an exploit. "


So again, G, I ask the question -- What is a person allowed to do, and what is a person not allowed to do? And please be very clear in describing just what is allowed and what is not.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 2:26 PM EST

Buy what you want from the stores as and when you want to.

QBRanger December 27 2007 2:29 PM EST

"I've not seen one single example on this thread of a forced store refresh. I've seen it mentioned often, but nothing posted showing it. As per my previous quotes on this matter I will remain consistent and fine anyone I am aware of who's working an exploit."

Is this correct? I have seen it plenty of times, people buying tons of iron shots then exshots coming.

I do hope your kidding but it is not April 1st.

I am sure plenty of people can post plenty of examples of this.

QBRanger December 27 2007 2:32 PM EST

I am sure this person was just playing around a bit. Nothing at all to do with trying to force a store refresh:


Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 642 Iron Shots ($147) 7:20 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 642 Iron Shots ($147) 7:06 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:06 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:06 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:06 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:06 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,152 Iron Shots ($265) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,152 Iron Shots ($265) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:05 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:04 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:04 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 909 Iron Shots ($209) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 775 Iron Shots ($178) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 747 Iron Shots ($172) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 715 Iron Shots ($164) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 816 Iron Shots ($187) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 1,032 Iron Shots ($237) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 sell 865 Iron Shots ($199) 7:03 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,321 Iron Shots ($304) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,315 Iron Shots ($302) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 1,356 Iron Shots ($312) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 775 Iron Shots ($178) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 816 Iron Shots ($187) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 865 Iron Shots ($199) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 909 Iron Shots ($209) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 715 Iron Shots ($164) 7:01 AM EST
Maem420 [t] (Maem) 72.92.237.150 buy 747 Iron Shots ($172) 7:01 AM EST

drudge December 27 2007 2:52 PM EST

oooooh, busted.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 3:08 PM EST

All that does is prove the point made earlier in the thread Ranger ref the changelog where Jon states that stores are no longer refreshable. No exp shots were created and even if they had been I'd question whether it was due to the actions of Maem420 or not.

QBRanger December 27 2007 3:15 PM EST

Beee,

Can you please link to the change log your quoting?

I must have not read that and cannot find it. At least under "changelogs" posted in December.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 3:18 PM EST

OB already has above.

Here it is again. /bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0018x2

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 3:19 PM EST

hmm, looks like I should have been spawning those ex shots like others all along then ;)

AdminNightStrike December 27 2007 3:27 PM EST

"Buy what you want from the stores as and when you want to. "

Ok, but buying from the store is what causes the Exshot to spawn....

So again, I ask you, please be clear about what is NOT allowed.....

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 3:31 PM EST

What are you basing the fact on that "buying from the store is what causes the Exshot to spawn"?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 3:32 PM EST

It seems forcing ex to spawn in a provable manner is illegal but there is no way to prove it ;)



QBsutekh137 December 27 2007 3:33 PM EST

NS, GB is saying the stores are not farmable (as the Changelog from Jan 1 2005 indicates).

In other words, none of this is store farming, and since Jonathan has said store farming is not possible, it is no longer a crime to be prosecuted (because it cannot happen).

It is as if a super-power made murder impossible. Then, someone sees a person standing beside a dead person, and says "MURDER!" But since murder isn't possible, it cannot be a crime, and can therefore not be prosecuted.

The issue becomes: has Jonathan made an error, and are the stores, in fact, farmable? If so, are we going to get it fixed, and what should be done in the meantime? If not, then this is all a non-issue, and all of the examples are NOT store farming (just coincidence, I guess).

I don't care either way, and I have no input to aid with discerning the "truth" of the matter. I'm just trying to get everyone on the same page, and hopefully have done so.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 3:37 PM EST

I've done it G, there should be manypeople who could attest to this working. Tizzy, Draco, Blubben, Hivemind etc etc etc.

I don't think it always causes ex to spawn just forces the store to refresh with a good chance of ex spawning

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 3:39 PM EST

Mansonfreek just encouraged some to spawn this minute and I bought them :)

Phrede December 27 2007 3:43 PM EST

Just for info I have bought iron shots several times from the store (as I use them) but I now always go back within a minute and several times have got explosive shots for my trouble (which I also use). This is not farming its just sensible procedure.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 3:48 PM EST

Mansonfreek just encouraged some to spawn this minute

Looks to me as if he bought some shot and then some Exp shot spawned afterwards, nothing wrong there, that's what I'd expect.

Sut, as usual, very well put.

PS. I'm still for exp shots spawning in the auctions. For the record I was against it when it was discussed on the admin forum a while ago (that was the discussion when Jon first suggested putting them in auctions), but I have since changed my mind and have lobbied Jon to do exactly what he initially suggested.
I'm sure he'll either get around to it soon, or will do something else quite different that takes us all by surprise (as usual). :)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 3:51 PM EST

Do you think those shot would have spawned if the shot he bought were not almost the last in the shop. Do you still really believe this is not happening? I'm amazed, truely.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] December 27 2007 4:01 PM EST

Been gone for a bit, just thought I would hop on and chime in. I am sure everyone is very excited at the prospect, but basically my post is Sut's last post. But as usual the true voices of reason are drowned out by a lot of noise. Well of all the voices of reason I am the loudest. So, what does Sefton think? Sefton thinks facts. Sut stated them all go read what he said. Then, CHANGE YOUR TACTIC!

If you want a change to be made do NOT use an example that proves the opposite to base it on, and do NOT try to argue the WRONG point!

Man, I tell you, if you would just listen to those that have been here before, we are trying to HELP you make YOUR case not ours!

So if you got this far and STILL want to see something changed, take 10 seconds, think about it, and make the a new post that argues the RIGHT point.

I will say that the current situation is unfair, I agree with you, so go state the unfairness and let progress continue.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 27 2007 4:10 PM EST

Explosive shot is not rare ammo... buy as much as you want...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 4:11 PM EST

Sefton, doesn't everyone that knows anything about the shop,including you know that the store is farmable for a FACT?

I thought we did and were past that argument, admins have said don't do it in the past haven't they?

How can we get any more proof?

AdminNightStrike December 27 2007 4:12 PM EST

Wait a second... let me get this straight. You are saying, G, that forcing Exshot to spawn is impossible. Ok, fine. So what has everyone been doing and getting into trouble for? If we are accusing people of forcing Exshot to spawn, and you are saying it's not possible, then what in blazes is all of this commotion about in the first place? Why do you insist that Exshot should be moved to auctions if, according to you, there is no real problem in the first place (since the whole basis for all of this Exshot nonsense is apparently impossible)???

I will ask you again... and please, PLEASE answer me this time... What *EXACTLY* is not allowed, and will result in a fine?

drudge December 27 2007 4:13 PM EST

rubber, lets see you consistently force exp. shot refreshes. i think is the kinda of evidence they're looking for. like, do it 10 times in a row or something to show us its can be farmed for a fact. then maybe they will look into it further.

drudge December 27 2007 4:16 PM EST

NS, evidently you will not get fined for forcing a refresh of exp shots as the admins are adamant that it can not be done.

confusion is why there are over 70 posts.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 4:16 PM EST

That is exactly what has been happening for some time Drudge. Not spawned by me of course and like I say you don't guarantee they will spawn but you do get to know when the store will refresh with a chance to spawn ex shots by forcing it which is a pretty bug advantage in getting them.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] December 27 2007 4:17 PM EST

No what we are saying is make this post:

Title: I think it is unfair that someone can force the store to spawn explosive shots.

Body: Here is evidence where it occured.

Here is why this is not right. (who it harms)

Here is the solution. (how to make it right)

then *smile*

QBsutekh137 December 27 2007 4:17 PM EST

Sefton, good to see you. *smile*

I think this is a particularly tough issue for people to discuss in focused fashion because it is one of those "evolutionary" problems... Things have happened that were fundamental changes to CB , and now we are seeing the ramifications...

The change I speak of? No ammo limit. That did two things:

-- Let's people buy all the ammo they want in order to make the store sparse.
-- Then let's people still have room to buy whatever spawns.

In other words, people can now "pan for gold" when it comes to explosive shot. This one of those times where seemingly unrelated things are found to be very much integral to each other. No ammo limit has completely changed the face of ammo shopping.

In that sense, I would say the Changelog from Jan 1, 2005 is moot. Stores ARE farmable for anything that has no inventory limit.

Ammo has no inventory limit.

Therefore, ammo IS farmable, and something needs to be done or policy needs to be clarified. QED.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 4:18 PM EST

I was farmable before, just easier to enforce, though now G seems to be saying it is impossible??

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] December 27 2007 4:21 PM EST

Thats all been done 3 threads ago Sefton ;) This one continues because nothing has been done about it.

AdminNightStrike December 27 2007 4:25 PM EST

"NS, evidently you will not get fined for forcing a refresh of exp shots as the admins are adamant that it can not be done."

This is contrary to G's posts. First, he says this:

"I'm sure the opportunity to exploit will be closed in due course. "

But that exploit is, according to him, impossible.

He also goes on to say:

"As per my previous quotes on this matter I will remain consistent and fine anyone I am aware of who's working an exploit. "


But for some reason refuses to say what exactly is finable. He only says that any possible exploit is actually impossible. So... nothing will be fined? I highly doubt that.

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 4:32 PM EST

NS. Let me be clear.

As far as I'm concerned Smoking in the toilet is NOT allowed.

You are saying, G, that forcing Exshot to spawn is impossible.
No I didn't.

Ok, fine. So what has everyone been doing and getting into trouble for?
Hasn't this thread gone past that? No one has gotten into trouble (to quote Ranger, "from someone whose opinion matters") for forcing Exshot to spawn. Is it even possible to force Exshot to spawn?

what in blazes is all of this commotion about in the first place?
I think you may be catching on...

Why do you insist that Exshot should be moved to auctions if, according to you, there is no real problem in the first place
Because I'm a fan of auctions and although not exactly "rare" I think the exp shots should be treated in a similar fashion to seekers.


PS. Knock yourself out - buy what you want when you want.

QBRanger December 27 2007 4:45 PM EST

/me is very confused.

I see a changelog from the beginning of CB2 stating that store farming is IMPOSSIBLE.

However, we have plenty of anecdotal evidence that it is being done successfully.

We even have plenty of examples that can show it being done... or do we.

Just like Sut's analogy...Just because a person is standing next to a dead body does not mean a murder was committed.

But... then again... it is a lot of evidence that store farming is possible.

And... in the past some things have come to light due to persistence by the community. Such as evasion in missile rounds being broken, the NUB being too much money, etc....

Perhaps we should all wait for Jon to chime in with the definitive answer.

QBRanger December 27 2007 4:46 PM EST

And here is yet another example of a time relative coincidence?

maulaxe [t] (Scud Missile) 198.182.208.71 buy 805 Explosive Shots ($402) 3:51 PM EST
maulaxe [t] (Scud Missile) 198.182.208.71 buy 940 Explosive Shots ($470) 3:51 PM EST
maulaxe [t] (Scud Missile) 198.182.208.71 buy 856 Explosive Shots ($428) 3:51 PM EST
maulaxe [t] (Scud Missile) 198.182.208.71 buy 544 Explosive Shots ($272) 3:51 PM EST
maulaxe [t] (Scud Missile) 198.182.208.71 buy 442 Explosive Shots ($221) 3:51 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.205 sell 8,312 Iron Shots ($1911) 3:49 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 975 Explosive Shots ($487) 3:47 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 1,405 Iron Shots ($323) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 1,252 Iron Shots ($288) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 1,240 Iron Shots ($285) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 982 Iron Shots ($226) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 919 Iron Shots ($211) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 843 Iron Shots ($194) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 843 Iron Shots ($194) 3:46 PM EST
Salvatore [t] (Evafer) 64.12.117.72 buy 828 Iron Shots ($190) 3:46 PM EST

QBsutekh137 December 27 2007 4:57 PM EST

I absolutely think store farming is possible. It is because of ammo having no limit (like I said above), and people being able to "pan for explosive shot":

-- Dip your sieve into a big load of silt = go to the store
-- Shake the sieve to get rid of the crap = buy all non-exp shot
-- Look at what is left, if there is gold, hooray! = see if explosive shot replaces the iron shot
-- Cash in the gold = buy the explosive shot.

No matter how small the chance of gold being in your sieve, you can keep trying... It is because there is no limit on ammo. Previously, the ammo limit made it impossible to farm ammo. Just as having a limit on the amount of silt one could sieve would make panning for gold impossible.

Stores are anecdotally, logically, and provably (all these store logs are NOT coincidence) farmable provided that the item type being farmed has no inventory limit. Tulwars cannot be farmed -- there are item limits.

Ammo can be farmed because there are no ammo limits.

So, now we wait for Jonathan to state whether this is OK, not OK, or something else entirely. I don't see why people need to be picking on syntax, semantics, and everything in between.

Windwalker December 27 2007 5:04 PM EST

Rangers last example says it all

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 5:05 PM EST

Folks, you really really are missing the point.

If I buy an arrow and another spawns as a result - is it farming ?
If I buy a rapier and another spawns as a result - is it farming ?
If I buy a Tulwar and another spawns as a result - is it farming ?
If I buy a shot and another spawns as a result - is it farming ?
If I buy a shot and an exp shot spawns as a result - is it farming ?

Hell no.

Now, you may wait for Jon to chime in or you may just decide to go to the stores and buy whatever the heck you want. Your choice...

Rare items do not spawn in the stores.
After me and all together... Rare items do not spawn in the stores.

Now, go buy whatever you want, whenever you want from whichever store you want :)


PS. Riding a motorbike in the UK without a helmet is NOT allowed.

drudge December 27 2007 5:15 PM EST

sounds like the end all to me..... any fines u get, just have g cover it =)

QBsutekh137 December 27 2007 5:15 PM EST

GB, you are correct, but the sentiment here is a bit askew from that -- because we disagree with your definitions.

Previously, explosive shot was not considered so rare simply because it could not be hoarded. So, it was fairly expensive, and there was nothing that could deplete its price.

Now there is no ammo limit. The ecosystem has been changed. Surely that requires a bit of a rethink?

People are now considering explosive shot a "plentiful rare" (a term we didn't need before because of the ammo limit). I think we DO need the term now, and I think there IS an issue of sorts. It may not be exactly what some people have been stating as we all get our heads 'round this, but I think it is an issue.

Maybe we need a new thread, simply asking, "Do people think explosive shots are powerful enough that they need to be throttled?" Then again, I think there have been posts on that before, and I think a lot of folks think explosive shots ARE very powerful.

Don't get me wrong -- your logic is correct, GB. I agree with you. I just happen to also agree that there is still an issue here. The two points are not mutually exclusive.

QBsutekh137 December 27 2007 5:16 PM EST

(Correction: I shouldn't say "we" in the first paragraph of my previous post... I should say "some, including me". Big difference in tone.)

AdminG Beee December 27 2007 5:21 PM EST

Let's move the ex shots to auctions. Remember, that's the theme all the way through my comments on this thread.

PS. Playing dominos on a Sunday in Alabama is NOT allowed.

drudge December 27 2007 5:36 PM EST

P.S Driving with a blood alcohol limit of .001 or greater in AZ can net you a DUI.

Colonel Custard December 27 2007 6:27 PM EST

When there are 7 or less bundles of shot (exp and iron cumulative) in the weapons store, more bundles are introduced. Unless something has changed very recently (as I stopped accumulating exp shot a few weeks ago, waiting for an answer, with all the recent commotion), I guarantee 7 as the magic number. This number has worked for me every single time. I'd notice if there were 9 bundles, I would buy 2, return to the store, and find around 20 bundles of shot, including explosive ones. I would do this consistently, and worked it out that 7 is the magic number. This is testable and consistent. If you buy 6 of 14 stacks of iron shot, there will be no refresh. If you buy one of the remaining 8, though, it will refresh.

If you want proof, I'll volunteer to take and submit screenshots of all my store purchases, and have at it. The store does refresh ammo and it is easy to force a refresh, G_Beee, and I would estimate by my personal experiences that exp shot spawns with the shot refresh about 98% of the time.

AdminJonathan December 27 2007 6:38 PM EST

Thread closed; see changelog post
This thread is closed to new posts.