Junction (in Changelog)


AdminJonathan March 12 2009 11:44 PM EDT

Skill replaced with amulet and untrained for no penalty. 50 are in the auctions to start.

Every +1 on the amulet grants 10% junction.

This is a normally spawning item, but is not upgradeable once spawned.

I'll refund the money of people who bought one by paypal.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] March 12 2009 11:45 PM EDT

ouch..

three4thsforsaken March 12 2009 11:45 PM EDT

fair enough :P

AdminTal Destra [Battle Royale] March 12 2009 11:46 PM EDT

well there goes my NCB plans right out the window

dup March 12 2009 11:46 PM EDT

why not have them all at +10 if you cannot upgrade

Soxjr March 12 2009 11:46 PM EDT

This is a normally spawning item, but is not upgradeable once spawned.


Then how do you get to 100% junction? if you can't upgrade.. why even get a +4 or +7 or anything other than a +10?

QBRanger March 12 2009 11:46 PM EDT

To make things real interesting and give USD players a nice advantage

QBOddBird March 12 2009 11:47 PM EDT

Wow. Butt kick'n new change.

I foresee much wailing from the OP single 'Chanter+Familiar users, and much joy from many others.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 March 12 2009 11:47 PM EDT

Waaaaaah.

QBRanger March 12 2009 11:49 PM EDT

This is very bad.

Imagine how much a +10 one will go for now. 10-20-30M? To make sure your NSC and HOC both work.

three4thsforsaken March 12 2009 11:49 PM EDT

now now, all you need to do is find a way to abuse your new skill slot with your junction familiar :P

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 March 12 2009 11:51 PM EDT

I'm getting a server error on the train page, I had a junction that was untrained.

King March 12 2009 11:52 PM EDT

single minion Familiar + pl ftw it looks like =P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 12 2009 11:53 PM EDT

" I'm getting a server error on the train page, I had a junction that was untrained."

ditto

Timberwolf March 12 2009 11:53 PM EDT

Server Error here too trying to train an de-Junctioned character.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2009 11:58 PM EDT

Anyone wanna buy an AoF?

AdminJonathan March 12 2009 11:58 PM EDT

fixed train

Daz March 12 2009 11:59 PM EDT

No server error on non-disjunctioned character.

three4thsforsaken March 13 2009 12:01 AM EDT

what I would really like is the new application of old skills or abilities rather than them being nerfed to the ground when rebalancing.

dup March 13 2009 12:02 AM EDT

new strat EA:Hal double elbows on 1 minion ftw

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 12:03 AM EDT

Do we know if we can junction skills? Because, well, yeah!

three4thsforsaken March 13 2009 12:08 AM EDT

where does it say we can junction skills onto the minion?

AdminJonathan March 13 2009 12:09 AM EDT

you can junction skills.

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 12:09 AM EDT

Well, if I can wear an amulet for the Junction, and they train, say, Evasion, I guess my Hal will be more Evasive? No?

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:10 AM EDT

I had hoped part of this item was to junction skills.

Thanks for clarifying it Jon.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 13 2009 12:11 AM EDT

my jiggy lusts for blood!

Rawr March 13 2009 12:11 AM EDT

So basically this allows the junction minion to use a different skill, but nerfs familiar damage and ED boost from AoF. Am I missing anything?

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:12 AM EDT

Dude,

I have no idea if the loss of HP from not using the AoF will compensate for the increased damage due to BL.

Remember less hp means it is harder to live to melee to use that new Bloodlusted familiar.

Unappreciated Misnomer March 13 2009 12:13 AM EDT

something happenned to my current junction and it dropped from 18mil enc to 13mil enc you ruin my junction

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 12:14 AM EDT

And you can't junction skills. See above. No BL for any familiar.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 13 2009 12:14 AM EDT

nerfs dd familiar damage, jiggy's & hal's weren't getting any boost but can now through skill junctioning.

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:15 AM EDT

Sut,

Look 8 posts up.

You can junction skills.

QBOddBird March 13 2009 12:15 AM EDT

I have to say, I highly approve of the direction this is heading in.


The +1 to +10, upgraded when it hits auctions thing is awesome...make them always have very short auction times, and it'll be a bit like camping again. Better yet, just let them spawn in the stores and give a 30 second delay between visits.


It would also be cool if you put this item back in the Special Store and for $11 USD, a player gambles...will I get a +1 pathetic? or a +10 awesome?

So many new directions this could take us...

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 12:16 AM EDT

Oops, thought it said "can't"! DAMMIT! I could train archery then?

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 12:17 AM EDT

So this IS a DD familiar nerf? Halidon has nothing but upside (if you can find an AoJ), and DD familiars get sort of screwed? They could train Evasion, I guess...

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:20 AM EDT

My early take, for all that care:

DD familiars took a huge hit. Now no 3% per + AoF DD boost AND loss of the bonus hp from the AoF since they have to use the AoJ.

HF familars took a smaller but noticeable hit. Less hp from the AoF but now single minions can use PL for replacing some. Multiminion characters can possibly use evasion since the HF has dexterity to boost its effectiveness.

JK familiars get a small buff. Less hp from the AoF/AS boost but they can now have BL. The question is if the less hp means they die quicker in melee before they can attack.

Obviously the other tattoos got a boost, and perhaps the RBF gets more loving.

And this does not take into account those who cannot get a +10 AoJ. Anything less makes the familiar less effective then before this new change.

Godpanda March 13 2009 12:23 AM EDT

*sighs*

kevlar March 13 2009 12:24 AM EDT

I dunno, I'm not luvin' the whole random spawn + thing. Seems like it will be far too important of an item to allow the possibility of being camped. Should be like the AOI and put as a supporter item if you ask me.

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:31 AM EDT

ah,

What happens when you junction PL on a familiar?

And they are the same level? And if the person uses EB's is the familiar's PL higher?

Colonel Custard March 13 2009 12:42 AM EDT

Could you junction Unarmed Combat with some Helm's Gauntlets to a Jiggy to get their bonus applied twice?
Can you Junction extra Archery onto a Hal (in case they have a lot of ST-boosting and GS)?
Can you Junction CoC onto an Ice Familiar? Better yet, can you junction FB onto an Ice Familiar?

AdminNightStrike March 13 2009 12:42 AM EDT

Try it and see :)

That's part of the fun of the game :)

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:45 AM EDT

1) Interesting if you can add more UC to a jiggy, as you can add evasion and DB.

2) The HF automatically gets 1.0 archer no matter if you boost its strength, at least as I remember

3) CoC is a DD spell, not a skill

Now if you name a +9 AoJ do you get 100% junction?

Colonel Custard March 13 2009 12:53 AM EDT

The wiki seems to agree with you that Archery is automatically trained to 1.00 on Hals, but it cites no sources. IIRC, Archery was trained to the same level as ST. For all practical purposes (because no one can junction 400% ST boost onto their Hal), that yields 1.00 Archery, but it is theoretically possible.

I was a little bit joking, though.

What about Junctioning UC to a Hal?

Soul Eater March 13 2009 12:53 AM EDT

This is kind of annoying because all the +10 AoJ's are going for 8mil and up now.

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:54 AM EDT

HF attacks with a bow, never uses a melee attack.

UC should be useless on one.

King March 13 2009 12:55 AM EDT

if you name a +10 AoJ will that make an effective 1.10 junction and if so....what would that do?

three4thsforsaken March 13 2009 12:55 AM EDT

why do you say that? UC minion can equip ranged weapon and attack with UC. In fact, they have to.

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:58 AM EDT

Familiars are different from minions.

My HF attacks with his bow every other round with a massive penalty in melee rounds.

And here is the changelog about the HF and archery level:
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002E2t

Tyriel [123456789] March 13 2009 12:59 AM EDT

Perhaps instead of making the lesser (+8 and below, likely) AoJs virtually useless, they could be the first forge-only item?

Make them take a while longer than normal items, since you can only get them up to +10, capped at +10 of course, and then I think some of the criticism will abate.

Other than that... The single minion familiar strategy had it coming and, although I'm not sure that this is exactly an ideal route to solve a problem, I think it could be the start of something very interesting.

Perhaps, in the future, some other amulet(s) that will affect familiars as well? Amulet of Enlightenment, for those wanting to grow their tattoos a bit faster? Amulet of Familiar Squires, to allow the passing of weapons on to familiars? Something to compete with the AoJ, as currently, since most familiars that aren't on single minions were on a minion, item-wise, dedicated solely to Junctioning, there isn't any real other option for those minions.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] March 13 2009 1:01 AM EDT

Perhaps instead of making the lesser (+8 and below, likely) AoJs virtually useless, they could be the first forge-only item?

I like this idea alot.

Godpanda March 13 2009 1:02 AM EDT

A)

It would be nice, JUST ONCE, to see a changemonth where the first chance wasn't a massive nerf to a certain strategy. How about that?

Sure, this is great for Jiggies, but it's a straight nerf to familiars. Sure, now we have options. But taking a decent strategy (It wasn't OP. MAYBE with DBs, but that's more a comment on the power of +200 DBs then anything else) and nerfing it to the ground while adding some options to it is meaningless.

Now you basically have a whole bunch of ways to do something badly.

B)

If you dislike single minions, give us a break there. Making them cheaper to hire. Make it so you can't play single minion.

Just stop taking every viable single minion strategy and cutting it's legs off every 6 months. You're penalizing us for playing by the rules instead of the unwritten "you're supposed to be playing with 4 minions". I understand, your game. But at least don't act like we shouldn't be complaining =)

What next? Now I HAVE to find a decent single minion strategy. I can't AFFORD to do anything else. Or is your goal to make USD a 100% necessity? Because I'm looking at 20-30 mil to run another half decent NCB or 30 or so mil to hire JUST ONE minion.

And since you nerfed my strategy, I have no way to even earn the money. Garbage NCB it is.

C)

I understand you've been busy, but why the HUGE delay on nerfing something you obviously believed was too powerful? Were you just waiting for as many people as possible to move their time and effort into a strategy before wrecking it?

D) (this is last)

Assuming I'm wrong and you are planning on giving familiars something to keep them alive, don't hate one minions and made this change because you're making a new change to balance it, why not release them TOGETHER? Everytime you've made a large nerf in the past year, it's been the only chance for weeks in either direction, which is a nightmare for players, being left in limbo.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] March 13 2009 1:18 AM EDT

What next? Now I HAVE to find a decent single minion strategy. I can't AFFORD to do anything else.

Money $177,512,556
say what?
o.O

QBRanger March 13 2009 1:20 AM EDT

Is all that his money?

Or perhaps someone else he is managing?

Hmmm....

three4thsforsaken March 13 2009 1:21 AM EDT

I don' t think that's his. And you're just detracting from the point anyway. What are you trying to prove?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] March 13 2009 1:23 AM EDT

You guys cant say you didnt see this coming?

three4thsforsaken March 13 2009 1:41 AM EDT

no. not really.

Little Anthony March 13 2009 1:42 AM EDT

i guess only those +10 are worth getting?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] March 13 2009 1:44 AM EDT

I'm assuming jon's going to work it out so the majority of them are not worthless.

BadFish March 13 2009 1:44 AM EDT

"i guess only those +10 are worth getting? "

MAYBE +9 might see some use by Junction teams at very low levels as a cheaper option.

TheHatchetman March 13 2009 1:57 AM EDT

name a +9, and you're good to go... ^_^

Little Anthony March 13 2009 2:09 AM EDT

will be most expensive amulet ever. come on! you cannot be serious!

Goodfish March 13 2009 2:14 AM EDT

Don't have a strategy that relies on it, and you can save seven mil.

Seems obvious enough to me. :)

AdminShade March 13 2009 2:19 AM EDT

Thanks Jon but you've thrown a lot of people into a pond with angry sharks for 24 hours...

DoS March 13 2009 2:33 AM EDT

Only 8 people won't have to rely on chance x.X

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 13 2009 3:08 AM EDT

Now all we need to do is change all the wiki pages that have junction in them.

And nice change that would take care of the OP Familiar strats.

TheHatchetman March 13 2009 3:10 AM EDT

"Only 8 people won't have to rely on chance x.X "

15*

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 13 2009 3:14 AM EDT

[Crazy idea mode] To help all those poor buggers that are left with a huge gap that needs to be filled by this amulet, lets make it forgeable only, give it a really crappy efficiency to help the forgers out. (so they can charge 100-110%) Lets face it, amulets below +6 are useless in my book anyways.

This way forgers, me! me! me!, can make a nice buck out of people that want em upgraded and help the community out. To a maximum of +10 of course.
(it also removes cash from the game!)
[/crazy idea mode]

Wasp [Demon Forging] March 13 2009 3:20 AM EDT

What a stupid change. This amulet will cost billions??

QBOddBird March 13 2009 3:42 AM EDT

Time for more Haiku
Changemonth is wrought with complaints
Overreaction

[probably did that wrong]

Godpanda March 13 2009 4:12 AM EDT

Yeah, if you disagree with someone's opinion, they must be overreacting or just plain wrong.

We all know being upset is always unjustified.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 4:22 AM EDT

Oh well. That's my strat ruined. Nevermind all the money I've just spent boosting things for it that I can't use now.

And 7 mill for a +10 AoJ. Fat chance of me getting one of those.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 4:25 AM EDT

"single minion Familiar + pl ftw it looks like =P"

I initially thought that, but both PLs would be at the same level (as you'd also both have the same skill increasing gear as well). I might be interesting if for example the front PL (or rear for MM?) is always used, then you can stick the Familiar behind the Junction minion and get use out of PL.

Also, I don't get the 1-10 value where you can't upgrade. You've just made 9 versions redundant. What's the point?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 4:33 AM EDT

And, what level do you get when you buy one from the special item shop?

Is it random? As that would suck.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 4:34 AM EDT

Ah, didn't catch it wasn't inthe shop any more.

Wizard'sFirstRule March 13 2009 5:07 AM EDT

Untrained Junction on Nesunke for 312 exp at no penalty.

I don't think I have a minion called nesunke and I don't think any of my minion has junction.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 5:08 AM EDT

Retired minions. ;) I had the Junction on some of mine refunded. :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 5:08 AM EDT

[T25PK]Aspirin -3 to be exact. ;)

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2009 7:27 AM EDT

These changelog threads remind me of Wall Street on a seriously down day.

Talion March 13 2009 8:45 AM EDT

To everyone out there who spent millions of CBD and dozens of USD to purchase/upgrade an AoF and now have to spend millions replacing that AoF with an AoJ (+10)... LOL! I guess you'll also have to buy a different supporter item now? LOL!

DoS March 13 2009 8:55 AM EDT

"15*"

So when did Jonathan say that naming it gives it a +1 boost to the effect?

QBRanger March 13 2009 9:02 AM EDT

It is obvious it does.

Name a +9 corn and it functions as a +10 one.

The AoJ will do the same.

QBRanger March 13 2009 9:04 AM EDT

I really feel bad for non-usd spender like GL who spent all his hard fought for money on items for his strat only to see it completely rendered inadequate.

I guess he will have to settle for a +7 or less AoJ and hope he can get lucky most battle and have it work.

A very very bad change IMO.

If we are to do random non upgradeable items, please make it something that is less essential for a strategy to work.

Talion March 13 2009 9:11 AM EDT

... and when I first logged on this morning and was still under the impression that the AoJ was a supporter item... and I saw my junction XP untrained... and I thought users would have to pay to replace junction... LOL! I almost chocked on my coffee.

I'm happy for every junction user that this is not the case... but it would still have been hilarious. LOL!

QBRanger March 13 2009 9:12 AM EDT

People still have to pay to get their junction.

Just via CB2 instead of USD, which does have a normal exchange rate.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2009 9:46 AM EDT

Talion's having too much fun with this. ;)

AdminNightStrike March 13 2009 10:10 AM EDT

I could spice this up a bit by sending a free AoJ +10 to anyone who refers six new people that become supporters :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 10:27 AM EDT

"I really feel bad for non-usd spender like GL"

Johnnywas mate. ;)

Well, I am a non-usd spender (I've usually bought all but the last couple of supporter items though), but I've not been using Junction on my last charcater.

I won't post on how much (or little) an impact this change has had for him, I'll leave that to Johnny. >;)

{cb2}Dinh March 13 2009 10:31 AM EDT

I just don't get this...was there really need for such a drastic change? I mean, of all the complaints about certain skills and what not, never have I heard a complaint about junction besides maybe wanting to junction skills with it...why not just make the Junction skill junction DD's instead of completely doing away with it, only to replace it with something that costs so much? Why cause this ruckus out of nothing when you could just add DD's to the junction skill and lower the effect some to where you have to add more EXP...anyway, my 3 day old NCB is seriously wrecked because of this...Well I'll just pay off my debts, then start saving for the AoJ, I look forward to getting one by 2010 ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 10:33 AM EDT

I think we'd all have to be a little naive to think that Junctioning an AoF to a DD familiar wasn't going to get nerfed.

The AoJ would be fine, if it wasn't for the 1-10 business.

{cb2}Dinh March 13 2009 10:41 AM EDT

Nerfed? I always thought of that word as more of a "balancing" but I guess completely doing away with a skill is nerfing...I guess I am too naive

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 10:43 AM EDT

Well, normally my view on changemonth is roll with it. But I don't think I've seen a change quite as...deathblow as this for a very long time. In my own particular case I'm in debt, and my only gear is a DD familiar tattoo and the gear to go with it. Any change to strat for me is going to involve some cost, which I'm not going to do while I'm in debt. Shame really, cos I was enjoying this run.

QBRanger March 13 2009 10:50 AM EDT

One can always try to buy a +5 or 6 AoJ and pray for a lot of luck in battles given a .5 or .6 junction.

However, this is again, IMO a very poor change.

This is so essential an item for numerous people.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 10:54 AM EDT

Not having full junction on a DD familiar/enchanter strat is essentially nerfing the items you're junctioning as well. Seems kind of pointless to do that.

QBRanger March 13 2009 10:56 AM EDT

I know and feel for you man.

My opinion on this change is quite obvious.

I guess perhaps in time when enough +9 and 10 AoJ are around that everyone who needs one has it, things may possibly get back to some normality.

However, the loss of hp from the inability to use a AoF is a huge blow to familiars, even with the ability to use a skill on them now.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2009 10:58 AM EDT

Wow, I had ignored the non-upgradeable part... why?

Why not make it 1% of the nw you're junctioning as plus on a linear scale?

New users just simply can't have a dd familiar junctioned?

This is just vicious, been a while since Jon was willing to show open disdain for a popular strat like this.

AdminTal Destra [Battle Royale] March 13 2009 10:59 AM EDT

Well, I was going to run an NCB and make money doing it. Now that that is out of the question cause of this new "item" I'm probably going to end up quitting permanently. AoJ makes absolutely no sense to me, why would you make the +'s random? The one with below +8 are going to be pointless, utterly pointless to even own as they are a waste of space. This is a HUGE nerf to all items that were junctioned to a familiar unless you have a named +9 or a +10. I see it as a way to push people away from a game, not anything that would get anyone excited about.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 11:01 AM EDT

" guess perhaps in time when enough +9 and 10 AoJ are around that everyone who needs one has it, things may possibly get back to some normality."

Then what's the point of the +1-+8's?

Do we really need more newbie traps? We've only just got rid of some of the Armour newbie traps. Do we really need to add more?

Do the lesser versions add anything positive to the game at all? Am I missing something?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 13 2009 11:01 AM EDT

unless this signifies a trend for existing items as well.

Talion March 13 2009 11:08 AM EDT

My biggest question is: Why get rid of the Junction skill?

Why not let people choose if they want to train junction or use the amulet or both? In my opinion, that would have made the possible strategies more numerous and interesting. No?

AdminTal Destra [Battle Royale] March 13 2009 11:12 AM EDT

Yes, Talion I would agree. Keep the skill and then you can use an AoJ to boost the skill if it falls behind

QBRanger March 13 2009 11:15 AM EDT

Talion,

Because most everyone would still use the skill with the AoF.

I certainly would with my strategy. The HP boost from the AoF was quite impressive to both my enchanter and my familiar.

If the problem with the AoF which led to this change, why not just change the AoF?

Take away the DD boost from it and lower the ED boost to 2% or even make it a special item that does not junction to familiars.

I have no idea why this change came about, however, this is going to cause much more problems then it cures.

But to have such an essential thing as junction be based up the luck of getting a +9 or 10 AoJ is fool's gold.

Perhaps in time when evenyone gets their nice high + AoJ we can see how it goes, but for a while things will really stink.

What really irks me is that for once, things appeared to be quite balanced in CB. Well perhaps tanks were a bit underpowered for the NW investment, however, there were fewer threads about balance issues that I have seen in a long time.

Now let us just blow the whole thing up and start over. Pfft.

TheHatchetman March 13 2009 11:15 AM EDT

What about a heavy tank strat a year and a half in the making? As I'm finally on the home stretch to getting a char, and utilizing the setup I want, the ability to use my gear is greatly hindered (via encumbrance), my skill slot gets destroyed (via the need for SS), SG was added which put a gaping hole in my reduction scheme, the last 40 or so pth added to my weapon are made excessive (by getting rid of evasion), and the ToE i wanted to use gets destroyed...

Despite all this, I mange to work things around and end up with a char that can be consistently competitive within the top 10. Last changemonth saw the end of SS as a skill, and the end of my strategy as viable. Hard to stay in the top 10 when there are teams half my MPR capable of destroying me... Seeing as I was 35m in debt, I had no way of fixing my situation, so I had to sell the char and start rebuilding... Hows that for recent "deathblow" changes? :P

QBRanger March 13 2009 11:18 AM EDT

Hatch,

How many heavy tanks were there out there?

How many familiar based team are out there?

And I agree, the SS to ED change was bad.

However, this changes is a completely different scale.

TheHatchetman March 13 2009 11:19 AM EDT

was in response to JW, went afk several times mid-post, so i missed all the in-between :P

Goodfish March 13 2009 11:24 AM EDT

It always makes me laugh and cry at the same time when I see people threaten to quit a game they are allowed to play for free.

The change is, shall I say, strange. It isn't good or bad, it's just change. If you relied heavily on Junction, then it sucks to be you. But everything changes at one point or another in CB, and the true test of your ability it to see how quickly you adapt.

Jon could've been a real card and just eliminated Junction. Instead, he's keeping it in amulet form (which is understandably a tough item slot to give up).

Happy Blending, everybody. :)

TheHatchetman March 13 2009 11:26 AM EDT

heavy tanks were rare due to people assuming and/or being told it didn't work. It was supposedly a fool's errand to try such a strat, yet it was nerfed to hell just the same. But the whole world gets turned upside down when a strat that everyone knew had power to spare takes a hit, eh?

My comment was made entirely in response to "deathblow" (not even JW's whole post so much, just that particular word :P), where only one needs to die in order for the word to fit

Godpanda March 13 2009 11:30 AM EDT

There is no "adapting" for some of us on a change like this.

It's start over or quit.

My apologies if I expect more of a game designer than to back certain members of the community into a corner with only those two ways out.

There were so many ways the AoF could have been toned down. If the strategy was -that- bad, sure, weaken it. Don't eliminate it.

And while I'm venting, how about spawning some tattoos so at the very least I could get a different, non- totally freaking wrecked tattoo without waiting for a semi-decent one to spawn in stores?

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 11:30 AM EDT

Hatch: you've probably been nerfed more times than anybody in the history of the game!

This particular change though doesn't make much sense to me. A huge proportion of the dd familiar/enchanter teams have historically been run as a cheap team by people without much cash. Now to replace the way it needs to work with NW/cash, and randomness in whether you can actually carry out that strat.

Ordinarily I'd probably try a workaround. But there's too much going on for me in RL right now to be bothered. Last time I felt like that was when CB2 was announced...

Steve G March 13 2009 11:32 AM EDT

so jon finally invented something worse then the gloves of mercy, any AoJ under +5 is in that category now :/

Goodfish March 13 2009 11:35 AM EDT

GW: I've always had the mentality that Jon can do what he wants for any particular reason. It's led me to seek professional help in real life, but at least it keeps me on my A-game in CB. [/joke]

I realize this is a tough change to swallow. I guess it really doesn't make sense, as there are certainly other options. But it seems silly to threaten to quit over a change like this. Go ahead, gnash your teeth. Get it out of your system, if you have to. It's only been what, 18 hours since the change? Ride it out a bit longer. I'm sure (read: hoping) that things will get better.

MissingNo March 13 2009 11:42 AM EDT

Ahhh, if more items start getting properties that are random I'm gonna beat you up. Yes, you.

TheHatchetman March 13 2009 11:51 AM EDT

"Hatch: you've probably been nerfed more times than anybody in the history of the game!"

Doubt it, I've usually been pretty good at abandoning ship before it sank. Ditched evasion (cornerstone of 3 different teams I ran) somewhere late-2007, and quit with the AoF-based familiar (admittedly though due to my fear of DM and not wanting to rely on EDs mid-2008). I don't remember any nerfs to my strategies being much more than a speed bump before the heavy tank :P


"This particular change though doesn't make much sense to me. A huge proportion of the dd familiar/enchanter teams have historically been run as a cheap team by people without much cash. Now to replace the way it needs to work with NW/cash, and randomness in whether you can actually carry out that strat."

I've always seen adding benefit to net worth/cash as a nice thing, and while I'm not exactly a fan of how it went down this change likely will work out for the better. Far as the +1-+10 randomness thing goes, I wouldn't count on that sticking around for too long... Call it a hunch ~_^

AdminJonathan March 13 2009 11:53 AM EDT

Second group of 50 is in auctions.

I think I got all the paypal refunds done. CM me your transaction ID if I missed yours.

QBRanger March 13 2009 11:55 AM EDT

Hatch,

I do hope your correct in your last statement.

Make it be 1.0, like the AoI all are +10.

Then you compensate for the AoF loss in hp with the freeing up of a skill slot.

A bit of a DD familiar nerf, well perhaps a moderate one with the DD level loss, but at least perhaps the skill slot opening is compensatory.

But as it is now, with a non upgradeable item that is random in its generation, this is bad man, really bad.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 11:56 AM EDT

I want to echo Ruin here, there is no adapting. This kind of change has happened before (Cloaks of Balrog Flame for example). Thing is, with most nerfs, while they might make you worse, you can continue to use the stragety you want.

Inlcuding running a single minion with only Evasion, after the Evaison change, for exmaple.

But this not only locks out an entire strat, it does so in a way that *only* the rich few can be allowed to play it.

Which is what I think is wrong.

The Junction change would be fine, if we could upgrade the AoJ. As it is, only what, 15 of the richest people in CB are now allow tohave a Junctioned Familiar strat.

Bleh.

(And it's not like owning a weapon either. You migh tnot be one of the 150 people to use a Morg - or whatever the current amount is - but that does't stop you running a Blunt weapon based Tank until you aquire one.)

Wasp [Demon Forging] March 13 2009 11:57 AM EDT

"There is no "adapting" for some of us on a change like this.

It's start over or quit.

My apologies if I expect more of a game designer than to back certain members of the community into a corner with only those two ways out. "

I'll second that. If this wasn't an NCB run I'd probably sell out and quit. Think I might do it now anyway. After jon nerfed my previous strat and now this one I feel a bit annoyed. : /

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 11:58 AM EDT

Wouldn't be so bad with a Rolling Bonus. ;)

:P

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 13 2009 12:04 PM EDT

Most vicious and upsetting change since the tat artist came online, I like it ;)

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2009 12:09 PM EDT

Did more just get spawned?

QBRanger March 13 2009 12:11 PM EDT

Yes, looks like another 50.

However, would it not be much easier just to have them all be +10 so everyone can get 1.0 junction back ASAP?

The removal of the skill and the ability to AoF/junction to a familiar should be more then enough change/nerf/bonus.

This introduces a whole new level of unnecessariness.

{cb2}Dinh March 13 2009 12:11 PM EDT

Appears so...seems like someone is watching ;)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 13 2009 12:14 PM EDT

Would have maybe been nice to wait until after some were in circulation before removing the trainable junction.

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 1:11 PM EDT

Yeah, had to amend my fightlist for the day, and am hoping I can get an AoJ and add them back tomorrow...

Really, at this point Junction should have just been changed to a pure, built in function (no training or gear required) of a minion wearing a familiar. That does away with all this expensive nonsense and the varied enchantment numbers on AoJs (there is no precedent for that in this game, and it is almost a return to chance-based offensive dynamics).

If I get an AoJ, I'll be fine, even gain from the deal a bit, I suppose. But I still don't understand it...

Godpanda March 13 2009 1:12 PM EDT

And you're lucky you weren't using AS, Sut! :P

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 1:15 PM EDT

Not luck, Ruin. Not luck. *smile* I made my choice for more DM a few months back! I'm not saying my crystal ball is any more accurate than anyone else's, but by getting rid of AS and changing my familiar to Hal, I relied less and less on the AoF. Hm, maybe that is luck! *smile*

Godpanda March 13 2009 1:19 PM EDT

Or maybe it's based on your giant MPR :P

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 13 2009 1:48 PM EDT

All I can say is THANK YOU JON. Thank you so much, I was tired of familiar blender. The 1-10 deal was maybe a little excessive, but overall I approve. Thank you.

QBRanger March 13 2009 1:55 PM EDT

Familiar Blender???

There are more then enough TOA tanks, RBF enchanters out there to compete adequately with Familiar based teams.

Now, however, the balance that was so good is completely ruined.

Not just by removing the DD bonus from the AoF, or the extra hp you got from the AoF (as any minion could), but by introducing a random aspect to the strategy of familiar based teams.

Unless of course you spend millions upon millions of CB hoping to find that +9 or 10 AoJ.

I think that almost all familiar based teams knew something was coming. And almost all those would say this is a decent change, except for the random element of introducing an item that is essential but is very hard to find in is +9 or 10 state.

For JKF users, it may be a slight boost. HF users perhaps a slight nerf, and a definite nerf for DD familiar users.

Almost all the problems or complaining if you will, comes from the AoJ itself, the lack of upgradeable of it.

Fix that and almost everyone would be satisfied with the change.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 2:00 PM EDT

I don't mind the nerfing of a few strats. We've all been through nerfs that have hurt a bit. But by removing junction and replacing it with the amulet (with the amulet being the way it is)...

That coupled with the way tattoos work these days pretty much made it impossible for me to fight, at least fight efficiently. I couldn't beat any of the people I could beat before. And I couldn't change my tattoo even to see if I could fight with anything else.

No point continuing with a char I can't even fight with.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 2:01 PM EDT

Sorry meant to say: what Ranger says, with this added.

Fatil1ty March 13 2009 2:01 PM EDT

Hey before all of you top users (namely wasp, and GW) consider quiting keep in mind how much not training junctions adds in Exp. For me (I have about a 5.3M lvl tat I gained 9M exp. That's nothing to sneeze at. I believe that would work out to about another 750k lvls of something.

Assuming Jon changes the nature of the AoJ to make them consistent I don't think this will be such a crippling change because I would guess at least 1/3rd of all upper level players are using a familiar.

My only concern is that this will make standard ROS builds completely OP except against ROBF teams

Godpanda March 13 2009 2:03 PM EDT

I do give some advice to everyone who was in a similar boat to me.


If you were single minion with a familiar, just put some of your exp into PL and more into AS. You'll gain some people using MM. Not a fix, but it'll put some air back into your tires until you have the cash for a more substantial and long term change. And do NOT use the amulet with this. The key here is letting the Enchanter take 100% of incoming damage for awhile. It'll stretch that Hp further.

Also use a corn if you have it.

Fatil1ty March 13 2009 2:06 PM EDT

what about this:

by putting all the extra xp into AS you gain a considerable boost. And then switching from AoF/junction build to AoL,BOF,CorN, you will be getting the boost in dmg from AoL and BoF and will really only be losing the HoC (something the upper level single minion players (3/4ths) for a Corn and will lose the NSC which can't exactly be replaced

BadFish March 13 2009 2:07 PM EDT

I am a big fan of the idea of a "random" element applied to a limited amount of items, making the items having the top stat worth far more.

I do not think that this concept works in CB.

With all the cash in the system, people ARE willing to pay 8mil for an AoJ +10. And they will not settle for anything less. Anything less than absolutely perfect in CB (Katanas, Execs, GoM,even BoNEs) get completely neglected if there is something even just a bit better to be spending money on. That is why it makes no sense to apply a random element to the AoJ's starting NW and have them non-upgradeable.

What I REALLY want is to hear what Jon thought his new change would accomplish, because really it trumps anything anyone has to say about it. And he has ran CB for many years and (besides the fatal crash and burn death of his first game to the pheonix rebirth from that game's mangled remains of CB2) has made no fatal mistakes. For over half a DECADE, a changemonth will start and people ALWAYS start freaking out. Just wait it out. There's nothing wrong with voicing what you think about the changes being made. However I'm not entirely sure having the CB community sign a petition to make a certain change within I think 2 days of a change made.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2009 2:10 PM EDT

*Nudges BadFish* What he really means is that this is the worst thing to happen to CB ever. ;)

chaosal March 13 2009 2:13 PM EDT

riding the powerful waves is like playing the stock market, this is just a downturn for some aspects... the trick, then, is to find a strat that has been recently nerfed and make it work for you. if it comes back into power, bonus! :P

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 2:14 PM EDT

lol, the biggest problem with the DD Familiar isn't the HP, that can be sorted by training AS. The biggest problem is AMF. And without junction it's pretty much a guaranteed killer, unless I only target DM/Hal teams. But then the best defense against them was DBs. Oh yes, junctioned DBs....

QBRanger March 13 2009 2:16 PM EDT

I do not know if some people misunderstand what I and others are typing.

We are not upset etc.. about the junction removal and new amulet.

It is the enactment of said amulet that is not upgradeable.

One now has to hope to find that +9 or 10 AoJ to have 1.0 junction just to get back to where you were before the change with junction.

Not including the loss of bonus from the AoF or DD.

The AoJ change was radical enough, to compound it with an item that almost every familiar user needs but few can get is counter productive.

And we are losing players as Dudemus and others can show the statistics on. Changes like this does nothing to help recruit players.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 2:17 PM EDT

Oh yes, before I forget, the loss of the AoF has just reduced my dd by a cool million levels pretty much.

This strats pretty dead.

QBRanger March 13 2009 2:19 PM EDT

At least you can still use NSC junctioned to your familiar.

At least if you are lucky enough or rich enough to get a high + AoJ.

Otherwise it is a crap shoot on what will happen in battle.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2009 2:21 PM EDT

At some point I would be able to. If I can buy a +10. Only way I could do that right now would be to get into more debt. Or sell my tattoo/gears. Can't see much point in either.

QBRanger March 13 2009 2:27 PM EDT

JW,

I really feel for you.

I hope Jon reconsiders that part of the changelog, and soon.

I doubt people will really leave CB. Or if they do, not for long.

However, for all the time people put into their character, and all the CB2 in NCB's to see it nerfed this much is very depressing.

And to lose a day of growth on the N*B due to the lack of immediate availablity of the amulets is just mind boggling.

The change/loss of the AoF boost should have been more than enough. This makes it far more complicated then it really has to be.

And far more expensive for most people.

Just imagine how it would be if the HoC worked this way.
Random upgrades from +1 to +10 with each + a 10% chance for an additional attack. There is no way non USD people could compete.

This is worse, as with the HOC you would only lose potentially 1 attack, now you can lose everything junctioned every round.

Steve G March 13 2009 2:29 PM EDT

imo it seems like this is nothing more then a nerf that was created to suck up all the loose CB$ out there and rid the game of it, why else would u create such lopsided items and then stick 100 in the auctions with only about 20 of them being useful making them go for insane prices

kevlar March 13 2009 2:40 PM EDT

If that's the case Steve, to suck up CB cash, why not just make it upgradeable, but make it very pricey to do so? That way everyone could put the money into it, instead of just having random +9 or +10 popping up now and then. Not to mention if it is a supporter item Jon could be making extra money on it as well. The only thing I can think of is that this system is supposed to promote a randomness to the game, but I can't think of why it is needed. Especially when it comes during a point where a lot of people's strats are being upset.

kevlar March 13 2009 2:42 PM EDT

When I look at supporter items, I thought they were supposed to be the most desired items in the game. Spellboosters and now the AoJ dominate people's wishlists, but are instead items which are spawned. *I'z confuzed*

QBRanger March 13 2009 2:46 PM EDT

Your right Kevlar.

Like the AoI, if the AoJ was +10 to start, and a supporter item, he would sell a lot.

And those without USD could pay 4-5M at the current exchange rate to get one. And I am certain those without the funds right now could get a pay plan to get their AoJ right now. And they would still be much less then the 7+M the +10 AoJs are going for right now.

I have no problem with the removing the skill and making of the amulet, however in this case the execution is quite strange.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2009 2:55 PM EDT

"However, for all the time people put into their character, and all the CB2 in NCB's to see it nerfed this much is very depressing.

And to lose a day of growth on the N*B due to the lack of immediate availablity of the amulets is just mind boggling."

"Wouldn't be so bad with a Rolling Bonus. ;)"

But to not sound like a borken record, it's changes lke this, Linear Weapon 'x' and the removal of the CoBF, which really highlight the inherant flaws of a bonus period (not accounting user based time missed).

Look at Sute, he's lost a day's worth of fighting due to this chage, at the very least. Imagine if he was still in a Bonus period.

QBsutekh137 March 13 2009 3:22 PM EDT

Well, not entirely, GL... Only had to remove three people, and Single Minion and Aztroll are more trouble than usual... If I do get an AoJ tonight, I consider it no real lost time.

However, if I DON'T get a big AoJ, that will definitely begin to hurt, starting with tomorrow's high experience time.

deifeln March 13 2009 4:17 PM EDT

It makes no sense to offer this as a 'general item that spawns in auctions' and NOT a supporter item. I mean really, the current implementation is absurd.

QBRanger March 13 2009 4:30 PM EDT

However, if you offer it, in its current state, as a supporter item, do you get a random + one when you buy it?

I can see it now, 11 bucks for a +3 AoJ. Try again!

TheCakeIsTheTruth March 13 2009 4:33 PM EDT

I say you should be able to buy one, but the (+ ) will also be random.

TheCakeIsTheTruth March 13 2009 4:34 PM EDT

Buy one meaning out of Special Items.

QBRanger March 13 2009 4:38 PM EDT

Now that all AoJ's are +10, I say let us see how things go with it before we complain about things in this area.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 19 2009 1:40 PM EDT

it would appear that the junctioned skill comes over to the familiar at whatever affect it would give to the minion, is this the intention?

three4thsforsaken March 19 2009 3:41 PM EDT

So you're saying if my minion trains not dex and junctions evasion on a Hal, the dex isn't applied?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 19 2009 3:42 PM EDT

yes, the hal's dex will not affect the junctioned evasion and the same effect will be applied for the minion as the familiar.

three4thsforsaken March 19 2009 3:43 PM EDT

I don't think I like that. In fact, it makes me very sad...

QBRanger March 19 2009 4:18 PM EDT

I concur that is something I am not pleased about.

Phrede March 19 2009 4:21 PM EDT

I was gonna say - no - sorry dont worry.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 19 2009 6:51 PM EDT

is freed's message incredibly cryptic only to myself?

three4thsforsaken March 19 2009 10:04 PM EDT

I don't get it either. But I'm guessing he is sad too.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 21 2009 12:33 PM EDT

has anyone had any luck getting any increased damage from a bloodlusted familiar through junction? i created a thread bug and was just wondering if anyone was able to get it to work?

Mythology March 21 2009 1:27 PM EDT

Amulet of Junction - Might want to put what Junction actually does in the item description, someone?

Andy March 21 2009 2:12 PM EDT

My jiggy did.. Though I re-inked nows ^^

I remember making a thread, I saw a slight increase in damage, from 80-120k to aroundabouts 100-150k damage each hit.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 21 2009 2:18 PM EDT

what was your bloodlust trained to, if you remember?

three4thsforsaken March 21 2009 3:18 PM EDT

I don't remember an actual boost. It could've been just noise
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002gZ2">Junction</a>