What is Overpowered? (in General)


QBRanger April 22 2009 2:11 PM EDT

On behalf of 3/4ths, new thread.

I will start.

The Enforcer's Crossbow is way overpowered. It gets a 42 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Why? It can completely neutralize a tank for 100M NW, no matter the NW on the tank with 1 scratch for 1 damage. That is too pass/fail for what CB should be. Nothing else in CB does this in 1 hit or 1 spell except perhaps EC but you need massive xp for it. I mean quite massive xp, like over 50% of your characters xp into it.

If anyone replies, please state also WHY you think something is overpowered.

BadFish April 22 2009 2:12 PM EDT

USD is overpowered.

QBRanger April 22 2009 2:14 PM EDT

Ok,

I will be more clear.

What items/spells/stats are overpowered.

USD is a different subject.

BadFish April 22 2009 2:16 PM EDT

OK,

NSCs are overpowered. For a negligible cost they can negate millions of levels of an almost necessary spell.

AdminShade April 22 2009 2:16 PM EDT

Indeed, because with enough 'overpowered' usd, any item could be overpowered ;)

Fatil1ty April 22 2009 2:17 PM EDT

the MSK is UNDERPOWERED as it is so easily solved by a simple phantom link...heres an example.

After switching from an ELB to an MSK I lose my ENTIRE fightlist. I don't think that the drop from ELB to MSK damage should be so drastic

Froy April 22 2009 2:21 PM EDT

Why USD is overpowered (for BadFish):
Some people due to location and/or age as well as personal family factors and such are not able to access PayPal and the like. Living in a different nation from who you are dealing with may also cause other non-electronic ways of sending money to become more expensive. Additionally, transactions of 6 or 7$ may be irrational due to taxes on most non-electronic transfers. PayPal easily stands out as the most efficient and as one of the least plausible for many people.

Cube April 22 2009 2:26 PM EDT

Shade, I'll send all my items to TP if you can come up with a way to make a Heaume overpowered. =P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 2:30 PM EDT

i think 100 percent bth is overpowered under the current evasion mechanic and have thought so since the evasion changelog thread. as to why it is so uber, other than ranged round penalties it guarantees hits and allows multiples in reality making it like dd with hits and melee with multiples.

the best of both worlds!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 2:32 PM EDT

oh, i forgot bugs! bugs are way uber these days. they are affecting things more dramatically and sticking around for months! ; )

Invader Sye April 22 2009 2:33 PM EDT

"USD is overpowered."
~BadFish

Not for long :\

Steve G April 22 2009 2:54 PM EDT

ranger always buying stuff is OP'd =)

Colonel Custard April 22 2009 2:55 PM EDT

$6,246,239,825 total liquid assets

You could get like 300 AC on a Heaume with that. It's like a double-Adam with half the penalties.

QBRanger April 22 2009 2:57 PM EDT

I love you too Steveo,

But how is 100 bth overpowered?

Tanks have to have a chance to hit. They get multiples to hit via the PTH on their weapon, which any other character can 100% neutralize with + on DBs. Which cost the same as + on weapons. Or very close.

Evasion lowers that PTH and dexterity can lower the bth.

When evasion was lowering both the PTH and bth in addition to its super boost from the AoF, that certainly was overpowered.

Is not the bth your chance to hit with a full dexterity advantage?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 3:09 PM EDT

Being a little experienced with EVA // Dex bth/pth, I would have to disagree ranger.

I had a fightlog (should have saved it) where a HAL hit every single round in ranged, and the first three rounds of melee (9 hits in a row, singles....

Now that alone might not sound bad, except that the defending minion had ~900k dex vs ~160k dex on the Hal.

That's a HUGE dex gap.

When I was running beasty I would also have stupid amounts of dex difference from ELB archers, and they would still hit over 2/3 of the time.

There we are talking about like 800k dex vs -200k dex and still hitting 2/3+.

:S (that's even combined with an evasion effect of 100+)

Pwned April 22 2009 3:11 PM EDT

the halidon familiar is OP it does insane dmg and looks to me everyone wants that one, cause it was selling for over 1 million dollars in the auctions.

QBRanger April 22 2009 3:12 PM EDT

You do realize the HF gets a very nice PTH.

My 7.5M HF gets +245.

When I had a 5M HF it was close to 175 I believe.

More than enough to compensate for almost no Bth and overcome your 100 evasion effect. Therefore about 1 hit a round.

QBRanger April 22 2009 3:13 PM EDT

And what level HF were you fighting with 160k dex?

It seems a 320k level HF?

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 3:14 PM EDT

dex reduces hits but if you have decent PTH is involved you should hit.

I don't see what's the problem, just cause your still getting hit doesn't mean your dex is useless. Reducing hits is something you can't see as well but is very effective against tanks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 3:14 PM EDT

"But how is 100 bth overpowered?"

Come on. I'm not even going to bother answering that Ranger.

Sickone April 22 2009 3:15 PM EDT

1. Speciality crossbows, easily the most overpowered thing.

2. NSCs, for the reasons many people mentioned. They should work percentually, not linear subtraction from effect.

3. Physical damage in general when USD are involved, but that's pretty much "business as usual", and with CB$-to-USD going back up, not that much of a problem anymore. Eh, debateable.

4. Dispel Magic, it should work more like AMF not the way it does now. Or if you really insist on keeping the way it works now, a 70% (or even 60%) instead of 80% it has now would be fair enough.

QBRanger April 22 2009 3:16 PM EDT

GL please answer it.

You get a 100 BTH with full dexterity advantage.

How would you do it different? Have 0 BTH and hit only with PTH?

Please, I do want to hear how 100 BASE to hit with full dexterity advantage is too powerful.

Pwned April 22 2009 3:19 PM EDT

bows are overpowered they have such a high hit rate and high dmg

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 3:19 PM EDT

In response to exile:

Hal shot Johnny Sr. [40355]
Hal hit Johnny Sr. [52872]
Dave's explosive shot hit Johnny Sr. [26147], Johnny Jr. [7844], Johnny [7844], JohnnyBoy [7844]
Dave's explosive shot hit Johnny Sr. [28212], Johnny Jr. [8463], Johnny [8463], JohnnyBoy [8463]

(It's really not an OP amount of damage)


In response to Ranger:

I'm talking about two separate occasions of this going on.

First, you're trying to tell me a HAL with 160k SHOULD hit an 800k dex target every round? (I'm talking about MY HAL doing this) My hal currently has:
Ranged Base to-Hit 100
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 28
and 215k dex. This was yesterday or the day before, I'm sure the 28 was more like a 23...

So how is that fair again?

Secondly, I was talking about when elb archers would hit the beasty overcoming a -200k dex to hit an 800k dex target that also had over 100 effect on his evasion. This was at the ~1m mpr level, and happened very frequently. (2/3s success rate on strikes)

That seems kind of bogus.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 3:19 PM EDT

Actually, I will elaborate, as WoW is still installing.

DD versus ELBow.

DD: 100% bth no multiple hits.

ELBow: 100% bth, infinite multiple hits, each hit an extra +100 Damage.

But GL, it's possible, in some situations (Well, Tank v Tank, everyone else is stuffed) that you can reduce the ELBow under 100% bth.

If, and that's a big if, you can reduce an ELBow to 50% BTH, that's *exactly* the same as hitting the above DD with a 50% AMF (or Other DD reduction).

So where's the DDs damage multpling multiple hits?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 22 2009 3:20 PM EDT

I do have to comment that base chance to hit is how much cth you will have when your dex and the defenders dex are equal. At full dex cth it is 100+base cth. So for the ELB full cth is 200% or 2 hits.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 3:20 PM EDT

As to how I'd do it.

Totally different. But then I'd scrap Ranged rounds altogether and merge the rounds.

But that's me.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 3:22 PM EDT

Thanks Nem. ;) So even if your Archer is ECed to zero Dex, you still get your 100% versus 20 Dex Mages/Enchanters. And no, training Dex is worthless on Enchanters and Mages. I explained that fully recently.

(Well slightly under 100%, as zero Dex is less than 20 Dex, but you get the drift)

Pwned April 22 2009 3:24 PM EDT

Hey what a minute so you guys are saying i should stop training dex and just add the + things to my weapons?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 3:25 PM EDT

Exactly, you think an 800k dex (combined with 100+ evasion) target would be able to dodge a -200k dex elb archer (NOT A HAL!!)... but no.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 3:25 PM EDT

Exile, if you look at the top nw weapons, that's what people have been doing for a very long time.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 22 2009 3:25 PM EDT

If your dex gets EC into negatives or under 20, your dex cth will drop below 100%. At 10 dex it would be 50% and at 1 or below it would be 5%. But this is only for a 20 dex char. It is all based on ratios.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 3:27 PM EDT

Yeah, was using down to zero just for an example (and hey, you sohuld be training a -20 EC on your own team! :P)

Another exmaple is *if* the combination of higher Dex than the archer and the -20 from an AoI gets you to a 60% bth, that's the same as using a 40% MGS versus a Mage.

Now where's the DD multiple hits?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 22 2009 3:28 PM EDT

I don't know exactly what the ranged penalties do. But I do know that for a 200k ELB user or HAL hitting an 800k dex person with evasion/db to take away all pth would have a cth of about 30%. This means that he should still be hitting about once every 3 rounds or so.

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 3:29 PM EDT

We don't want to create a scenerio where Tanks have incredible trouble hitting again. Remember the old evasion? It's safe to say that complete dodging should not be the norm without significant investment.

QBsutekh137 April 22 2009 3:29 PM EDT

I'm going to stick up for DM again simply by listing the two big downsides:

-- It is useless against teams without DEs. 100% useless. Not slightly less useful, not harder to train -- totally useless.
-- For a big investment, it means you can't train EC or AMF. That HURTS. Simply Decay can wreak havoc, forcing a lot of DM folks to be archers or spread-fire magicians. You are FORCED into that, because if that Decay mage stays alive, even with base decay, you are dead.

I don't disagree that things like the NSC are a little on the strong side, too, but DM makes me completely unable to even train one ounce of AMF. Isn't that a pretty strong downside?

And I'll throw in what I think is overpowered: PL.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 3:38 PM EDT

Thanks Sut. "4. Dispel Magic, it should work more like AMF not the way it does now. Or if you really insist on keeping the way it works now, a 70% (or even 60%) instead of 80% it has now would be fair enough."

You realize if you changed it to AMF style without a rescale to GA you might as well stick a knife in the SoD and FB. Not to mention how much this will help AS users, which we seem to have enough of already.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 3:39 PM EDT

Oh, and sorry for the double post, but I agree with you too on the PL Sut.

QBRanger April 22 2009 3:43 PM EDT

Yes, PL is insanely overpowered.

By itself, it essentially makes Mageseeker bows obselete.

And the "back from the dead" properities are foolish. Once dead, stay dead. Same with the regeneration of the TSA.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 22 2009 3:45 PM EDT

AoJ is overpowered, any type of tattoo is overpowered.

Ranger this thread is so going, omg tanks can't hit thing again!

Same thing you did to evasion you are now doing to the exbow.


Omg is it fair if something with so much nw can neutralize 10mil of str? omg omg omg. jeesz whine more man.

Try training evasion, upgrade DB's? Get an exbow of your own. Make sure you have a second damage dealer.

More then plenty of ways not to be effected by the exbow. So no Ranger the only thing overpowered here is your opinion. Please try and not force it upon to others. Because I can see where this is going you whine and whine and complain until jon had enough and bows to you whim. No stop complaining and play the damn game.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 3:47 PM EDT

Henk, you're probably the only person in CB who doesn't think the xbows are OP, including the people using them.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 22 2009 3:49 PM EDT

no titan I'm sorry, but if someone is out on a crusade just to safeguard his own interest I get pissed

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 3:49 PM EDT

"Because I can see where this is going you whine and whine and complain until jon had enough and bows to you whim. No stop complaining and play the damn game."

And by this I assume you mean, wait until Ranger sells out and then fix the problem, like Jon did last time. Yeah, think before you speak.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 3:51 PM EDT

"I don't know exactly what the ranged penalties do. But I do know that for a 200k ELB user or HAL hitting an 800k dex person with evasion/db to take away all pth would have a cth of about 30%. This means that he should still be hitting about once every 3 rounds or so."

it would appear to me that it is actually around 130 rather than 30 in that scenario.

QBRanger April 22 2009 3:55 PM EDT

Ah, the true feelings of an Exbow user.

I expected nothing different.

I am sorry you cannot see how 1 hit for 1 damage taking away 10+M strength is not way out of line.

Let us review what it would take NOT to be hit 1 time.

Let us say your tank has 3M dexterity. And mine has the same. Your base Bth will be about 80% or so.

And say your exbow is +120, not out of line.

So you have a +200 chance to hit.

Now I would need +200 evasion or DBs NOT to be hit just 1 time.

How logical is that.

And if you get more dexterity, I need far more evasion/DBs.

I even tried a massive EC, using over 40% of my xp on Koy to combat NS's exbow. And I had 200AC on my tank at the time. And 70% of the time he hit me and drained 10M strength.

I can boost my dexterity way up there to be defensive, then I have little attack.

Even an elb does not kill any decent minion in 1 blow, especially a tank with native hp.

So again, how do you suggest one stops an exbow? Multiple damage dealers? Think cost on 2 or more tanks.

GO mage/tank? Gee, thanks for a choice in how to play, due to 1 overpowered item.

Please think before you post as Titan suggested.

QBRanger April 22 2009 3:57 PM EDT

And as for me going with an exbow, not a chance.

I know in my bones it is overpowered and am waiting, hopefully for Jon to fix it. It may take 18 months like the VB but it has to be changed.

And why do I have to use one to combat one?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 22 2009 3:58 PM EDT

"Now I would need +200 evasion or DBs NOT to be hit just 1 time.

How logical is that."

yeah deal with it like so many do. And you might want to check something. I do not use an exbow.

that exbow on my character is being forged at the moment.

if you don't like being hit buy a pair of db's ranger. Like everyone has to if they dont like being hit.

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 4:00 PM EDT

DBs got nerfed dude, easier said than done.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 22 2009 4:01 PM EDT

db's never got nerfed. only thing they ever did was counter pth. nothing more nothing.

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 4:03 PM EDT

Besides Jon nerfed all evasive abilities in order to create a game where tanks can hit pretty consistantly and not just be a dodging game.

This conflicts with how the exbow works, therefore there is a problem if the only way to cope is to dodge or go mage.

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 4:05 PM EDT

"db's never got nerfed. only thing they ever did was counter pth. nothing more nothing. "

Yes they did get nerfed so they no longer affect BTH. Jon did this obviously (because this is exactly what it does now) to no longer allow DBs to grant complete dodging.

DBs exist to reduce hits, but not all of them.

QBRanger April 22 2009 4:05 PM EDT

I do not mind being hit. Many tanks do that. In fact, I get hit 3 times a round while wearing +101 DBs by Sut's HF. And still win. I get hit multiple times by many other tanks and do just fine. Even vs Vectoidz I live a couple rounds vs his massive, 300M NW elb.

I trained 8M+ HP on my tank just for that purpose.

I do not like getting hit ONE time and losing all my strength effectively losing the battle. Just like getting hit one time for 9M damage. Battle over. From a 100M weapon.

Ah, your not using it, but getting it forged. Enough stated.

BTW, DBs in the beginning lowered BTH if they were higher than the weapons PTH. This aspect was changed recently. The only way to avoid BTH is have a huge superhigh dex advantage.

So my earlier post about needing +200 DBs was inaccurate. There is no other way to defend the exbow except a massive dext bonus. WHich in reality will never happen.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:05 PM EDT

Not to mention, (coming from a tanks point of view) it's kindof hard to put 200M into DBs when you have to put 200M into your weapon. I thought you were the one who didn't like USD Henk.

QBRanger April 22 2009 4:11 PM EDT

BTW,

I do have multiple damage dealers and by round 2, they both have no strength left.

Should I be forced to hire minions 3-5 just to make more damage dealers?

Windwalker April 22 2009 4:12 PM EDT

I think the Ex-Bow is overpowered for this simple reason. If you hit anyone else with anything else and it drained 8 to 10 million (name the trained) in one or two rounds everybody would say " That item is way out of line".

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:13 PM EDT

Obviously Ranger, obviously.

QBRanger April 22 2009 4:13 PM EDT

Yea,

I really want a mage crossbow. 10M DD drained in 1 hit for any damage. Tasty!!!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:14 PM EDT

I fall on the side of the EXBows being too good at what they do.

But;

"DBs in the beginning lowered BTH if they were higher than the weapons PTH"

In the beginning, they didn't. They were flat -pth reductors to counter Todd's +255 Loch.

It was only when Evasion was changed in CB2 to grant defensive Dex that DBs were changed (it was actually an evasion mechanic change itself, not an item change) to reduce dex based cth after weapon based bth.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:15 PM EDT

"Yea,

I really want a mage crossbow. 10M DD drained in 1 hit for any damage. Tasty!!!"

Cool. I want multiple DD casts per round.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 4:16 PM EDT

"So my earlier post about needing +200 DBs was inaccurate. There is no other way to defend the exbow except a massive dext bonus. WHich in reality will never happen."

it only has a 56 bth as well. yet you do not see how a weapon with 100 bth might just be too much?

i do realize that the exbow can do its thing with few hits. but is it not the same effect considering teh 100 bth users often get multiple damage hits and also often boost the damage mod to crazy numbers?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:18 PM EDT

Nice quote Dude. Missed that.

There you go Ranger, why I originally refused to answer.

100 BTH is OP.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:18 PM EDT

"The Enforcer's Crossbow is way overpowered."

Agreed, along with the Assassin's Crossbow. Anything that drains 100% of a stat in ranged combat is too powerful. And these xbows currently do it in one bloody round. I posted a solution to this, but too many people think my idea is too big of a nerf because it does exactly what it is meant to do.

And I use both, so if anybody can say they're overpowered without looking biased, it's me.

The Noldarin Spellcasters, because they heavily, HEAVILY nerf the one best counter to DD spells, which are more than powerful enough on their own.

"i think 100 percent bth is overpowered under the current evasion mechanic"

Assuming you mean 100+ pth, oh my GOD do I ever disagree. I still miss sometimes 3/5 rounds of ranged with 100+ on certain high DB or Evasion characters. That's OK, as high Evasion should still cause, uh, -evasion- to happen. But any more? No, then we're right back to where we were, where a certain character class' attack is meaningless. And that should never happen. Evasion and + is right where it needs to be.

"And the "back from the dead" properties are foolish. Once dead, stay dead. Same with the regeneration of the TSA."

Strongly agreed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:19 PM EDT

"I can boost my dexterity way up there to be defensive, then I have little attack."

And you want Mages/Enchanters to trian Dex...

*chortle*

ScY April 22 2009 4:20 PM EDT

"If anyone replies, please state also WHY you think something is overpowered. "

Todd.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:21 PM EDT

"Assuming you mean 100+ pth, oh my GOD do I ever disagree."

Nah LB, it's the base cth here.

When yo're at exqual dex to the attacker, and they have a base 100% chance to land a hit, with you unable to do anything to reduce it (bar wear an AoI, and that takes it to 80%, like a nice 20% AMF/MGS versus DD).

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:21 PM EDT

"And you want Mages/Enchanters to trian Dex..."

Yes we do, if they want to evade our attacks.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:22 PM EDT

"Nah LB, it's the base cth here."

Ah, I suck. You mean the 100 base with full archery, no? In that case, I am inclined to agree to an extent.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:23 PM EDT

When Tanks won't even do it?

It's a down right rediculous claim.

Or the answer to A/EXBows is just train more Dex.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:23 PM EDT

Yeah that 100% base. And you don't suck! :P

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:26 PM EDT

"When Tanks won't even do it?

It's a down right rediculous claim."

Yes, but you guys are evading damage, not evading auto loss, Where's my auto win, why can't I have one.

QBRanger April 22 2009 4:29 PM EDT

I am getting an idea that people think getting hit 1 time a round is overpowered.

Hardly, that is what training HP or AS is for.

I do not mind getting hit 1 or 2 or even 3 times a round. It is part of the game. In fact, I expect to get hit by tanks multiple times a round.

But I plan to have enough HP to live long enough to deal out my damage.

It seems that when evasion was so out of line, people expected to not get hit at all, and some even think that is how it should be now.

But tank damage is less than mage damage. My 7.5M HF does 500k a hit to low AC minions. A 6.6M SF does 750k damage to me a round in missile, with its corresponding penalties.

It is all relative. DD does more damage but hits one time always.
Tanks can hit 0-5 times but do overall less damage with non super USD boosted weapons.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:29 PM EDT

Here you go, it's a 100% bth ELBow. Please upgrade its 'x' linearly, as much as you want. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:30 PM EDT

"It is all relative. DD does more damage but hits one time always.
Tanks can hit 0-5 times but do overall less damage with non super USD boosted weapons."

Rubbish.

I gave the reason why in another thread.

You can *only* make this claim once we know which DD to which weapon, and how many hits per round Magical to Physical damage is equated around,

And that's *nothing* Jon has even shed light on.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:31 PM EDT

"When Tanks won't even do it?"

Uh, tanks do train Dex. If we have to do it to hit (reasonably, at least) you should have to do it to evade.

What, you want to pump all your XP into damage while we have to sacrifice it just to connect? I don't think so.

"It's a down right ridiculous claim."

No.

"Or the answer to A/EXBows is just train more Dex."

Your solution to the one hit/nullify attack problem is to promote MORE evasion (the effect, not the stat)? No, I don't think that's a valid solution. It takes ONE hit from a properly funded Exbow to nullify 100% of any attacker's Strength. "Train DX to avoid another hit or two" is NOT a realistic fix to the problem.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:34 PM EDT

The quote was that the answer to being hit was to Train more Dex, but you couldn't realistically (as a Tank) train enough Dex without gimping yourself offensively.

This is then used as a valid Tatic for Mages/Enchanters, who don't even get *any* offense from Dex, as a viable means to defend themselves.

If Tanks *won't* do it, there's no way in hell Mages/Enchanters should or even would. And it should never be offered (seriously) as a valid defense.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 4:37 PM EDT

i don't mind getting hit. i think that with dex advantage it should happen rarely though and multiples shouldn't really happen. again that is with 114 evasion on my jiggy taken into account.

evasion in its current state seems to work fine in my mind actually for all weapons except for the 100 bth ones and for all minions except the hal familiars which use a 100 bth weapon.

in effect it doesn't make me able to dodge it all but it can minimize the hits to a manageable level.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:40 PM EDT

As an addednum to my above post.

Especially when trianing Dex to lower or equal your attacker (as a mage/E training dex here) doesn't nothing and is just a waste of XP.

No one with a stright face should ever offer up (in thier current incarnations) Dex as something to train for a Mage/E.

I can't think of anything else trained in CB atm that would offer nothing at all until you beat your opponents score in it.

Talion April 22 2009 4:41 PM EDT

All I have to say about this entire thread is: "Yawn! Zzzzz..."

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:41 PM EDT

I think evasion works astoundingly, I have a +272 SoD and against Jigs I only hit once, or I miss. Seems fine to me.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:41 PM EDT

"The quote was that the answer to being hit was to Train more Dex, but you couldn't realistically (as a Tank) train enough Dex without gimping yourself offensively."

Correct.

"This is then used as a valid Tatic for Mages/Enchanters, who don't even get *any* offense from Dex, as a viable means to defend themselves."

Yes, that's the suggestion. Train Dexterity to 2/3 Evasion (or whatever it is) to get the desired effect. It we have to sacrifice Strength for Dexterity just to have a shot at hitting you, you can sacrifice part of YOUR offense to train Dexterity if you want to avoid us. Because after all, as I said above, DD spells are strong enough already. If you want to evade tank attacks, you shouldn't be allowed to concentrate such powerful offense.

"If Tanks *won't* do it, .."

But they DO.

"..there's no way in hell Mages/Enchanters should or even would. And it should never be offered (seriously) as a valid defense."

Again, disagreed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:43 PM EDT

"we have to sacrifice Strength for Dexterity just to have a shot at hitting you"

No you don't. ;)

Not with a base 100% Weapon.

It would be fine wihtout. If you did indded need Dex to be able to hit.

But you don't. you're guaranteed a single hit per round versus a Mage/E with just you base 20 Dex.

Windwalker April 22 2009 4:43 PM EDT

Put another way. I have an item equipped that targets only familiars. It kills in one or two hits. Always hits. Doesn't matter how big the familiar is. Doesn't matter what you train or what defense you have.Dead.

QBRanger April 22 2009 4:44 PM EDT

Again,

Getting hit is part of the game.

You should not have to spend all your xp and CB2 to avoid getting hit ONE time.

If, as a mage, you do not train dexterity, get used to getting hit a time or 2 in combat. But have enough HP and PL to live through it.

If, as a tank, you do not train AMF, plan on getting hit by a lot of DD damage.

But to say it is ok for 1 item, properly upgraded to completely destroy a character with 1 hit is ... well just is. I have no more words to describe it.

Now: LA's SG does over 3M HP a round to me. My ELB with 5M str does only 900k per hit. Overall, DD does do more damage per attack vs a single hit tank. Tanks make it up by multiple hits.

And I have about as much xp trained in Str/Dex to equal LAs SG mage.

I personally see no problem with this system.

Mages 100% hit for more damage on average, and with little NW cost.

Tanks can miss or hit multiple times for overall less damage with large NW cost. If a tank uses USD, of course their damage can be stratospheric.

Of course you can say "NO, mages do less damage than tanks". I cannot 100% prove that they do more. But in my 5 years of playing CB, with all the changes, it is what I have experienced. Especially with the addition of SG and all the damage boosters CoC got. Add the NSC and it becomes even more skewed. And they are 1 reason I use DM instead of trying to play the AMF game, which most people lose.

But note this post is NOT to complain about mages damage, or tanks damage. It is to show that the exbow is just... well just.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:44 PM EDT

"But they DO."

They also get up to a 100% damage increase fom it.

Take away the extra Dex based attack and we might be getting somewhere.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:44 PM EDT

"No one with a stright face should ever offer up (in thier current incarnations) Dex as something to train for a Mage/E."

Believe me, my face is straight. Want defense? Sacrifice offense or enchantments. Rock paper scissors and all. You don't get everything you want.

"I can't think of anything else trained in CB atm that would offer nothing at all until you beat your opponents score in it."

It's not offering nothing, it's offering defensive Dexterity and a shot at 100% Evasion. Extra defense, especially defgense as awful as Evasion, is not "nothing."

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:44 PM EDT

"But you don't. you're guaranteed a single hit per round versus a Mage/E with just you base 20 Dex."

Somebody's never heard of ranged penalties have they.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:46 PM EDT

"It is to show that the exbow is just... well just."

It's drain is wrong. Nothing at x4000 should drain an entire stat in one hit, regardless of any stats on the attacker/defender.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:47 PM EDT

"They also get up to a 100% damage increase from it."

And once again, DD spells are strong enough to make up for it.

"Take away the extra Dex based attack and we might be getting somewhere."

And if you do, we had better kill off the Noldarins AND nerf DD by about 30%.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:47 PM EDT

"Somebody's never heard of ranged penalties have they."

Which tanks also suffer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:48 PM EDT

"It's not offering nothing, it's offering defensive Dexterity"

What does Defensive Dex do if you don't have it *above* the Tank that's attakcing you?

As for Ranged Penalties, they're global. And I persoanlly don't think they're OP. ;)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:49 PM EDT

LB: lol, yeah that's my point. Elbows don't hit if they don't have dex advantage and are in the first round of range. Well, it is highly unlikely that they will hit anyway.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 4:50 PM EDT

To quote Henk on dealing with the Exbow:

"yeah deal with it like so many do."

This isn't a solution to an overpowered item. This is a suggestion to ignore it and just work around it.


I agree, PL and particularly the TSA's "back from the dead" power are OP - TSA is OP anyway, getting 1% per + to STR, + counting as AC, AND the HP regen.

The NUB is also overpowered, to the point where there's no point in having a favorites list for the first 200k MPR. That's actually detrimental to new players. Rolling bonus ftw.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:50 PM EDT

"LB: lol, yeah that's my point."

Oh. Sorry.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:51 PM EDT

Meh, to clarify, I'm using above the attacking Tank for bth stuff. I know Defensive Dex closer to the Tank attacking you would cut down on thier extra extra dex attack.

But then I could shift the claim to what does defensive dex smaller than half (or whatever) the Dex of your attacker do for you?

Nothing.

And I can't think of anything in CB that wants an XP expense that offers nothing in return until you get it above half (or however much) of the stat it opposes.

At least AMF has an effect (even if it become small enough to be outgrown) for whatever size DD it faces.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:51 PM EDT

"What does Defensive Dex do if you don't have it *above* the Tank that's attakcing you?"

It gives you 100% Evasion, if it's trained properly.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 4:53 PM EDT

"It's not offering nothing, it's offering defensive Dexterity and a shot at 100% Evasion. Extra defense, especially defgense as awful as Evasion, is not "nothing.""

Not to mention that the same gears that boost Evasion also boost DX, so you don't have to worry about training extra DX to keep up with your superbuffed Evasion. The ratio stays constant. That is HELPFUL.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 4:53 PM EDT

"The NUB is also overpowered,"

Holy crap, does this ever hit the nail on the head.

1000% agreement, for the win.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:54 PM EDT

So now LB we're on to *two* different XP expenditures to counter the Tanks one.

Trianing Dex and Evasion.

So you not only have to beat the Tanks Dex, but you have to do it twice.

And then have an offense that you cannot boost with NW and have to rely on XP as well.

Can you not see why this is rediculous?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:55 PM EDT

Unless we're using DBs and not Evasion, then I'm back to Defensive Dex = Nothing. ;)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:55 PM EDT

"At least AMF has an effect (even if it become small enough to be outgrown) for whatever size DD it faces."

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Have you so quickly forgoten about the NSCs, might as well not even train small AMFs.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:56 PM EDT

forgotten*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 4:57 PM EDT

NSC is nothing to do with it. Their 'OPness' is an entirely different subject.

It's like saying the EXBow drain is fine, have you forgotten about DB? You'll never be hit to be drained.

QBRanger April 22 2009 4:58 PM EDT

"And I can't think of anything in CB that wants an XP expense that offers nothing in return until you get it above half (or however much) of the stat it opposes. "

Uh, you missed the NSC. Train 3M AMF vs a 8+M DD spell/familiar and watch the .0x pop up in your battle report. Effectively doing nothing.

And yes, the NUB is overpowered. I thought that was intuitively obvious to the most casual observer :)

QBOddBird April 22 2009 4:58 PM EDT

GL, look at it this way: You can train Evasion up without DX, but if you add in DX, it gets 40% stronger, plus you get defensive DX against the high STR/small DX tanks.

(or you just could use a melee rounds DD, add some + on to an Exbow, invest a MUCH smaller portion of exp into some STR and a wee bit of DX, and pwn the tanks before you even attack with your spell.)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 4:59 PM EDT

It's like I'm running in circles. It's very hard not to get hit once by a weapon, which is how it should be. DBs are there to counter being hit multiple time, which I'm ok with I guess if they want to put a lot of money into them. But, getting hit once, and losing all attack ability, is NOT OKAY.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 5:00 PM EDT

TTT, what are you running around for? Did you not see me support that fact the specialty XBows drains are out of order?

Ranger, that's why I said trained, and not purchased. NSC aren't the point.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 5:02 PM EDT

(I think he was saying that AMF was one of those stats, GL, due to the presence of the NSC. (but not everyone has NSC that big.))

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 5:03 PM EDT

Oh, well then continue on GL, nothing wrong here. :P. (I must have misread one of your earlier statements.)

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:04 PM EDT

Yes, OB is correct.

You train AMF and watch it get nuked by a pair of NSC.

And you do not need +18 NSC to do it. +13 or 14 will do just fine.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 5:07 PM EDT

Not the point guys.

Ignore all items fora minute. Training AMF gets you something vrsus DD (unless it's so small it's cast at zero). All the way from 1% to 100% reducitons.

Training Dex for Defensive Dex only gets you absoulty nothing. No effect what so ever. Until you beat your Attackers Dex score.

Not even a 1% reduciton if you have a tiny Dex compared to the Tank.

Thak April 22 2009 5:11 PM EDT

As to the NUB being over powered. If there wasnt so much darn hoarding by the upper class in this game. The NUB would prob not be needed or tuned down quit a bit.
I hate when this NUB is brought up casue it is a end result caused by the very hand of the people complaining about it.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:12 PM EDT

"Training Dex for Defensive Dex only gets you absoulty nothing. No effect what so ever. Until you beat your Attackers Dex score."

Certainly not true.

If you train 1M dex vs 3M dex, you will get a small reduction in the bth.

If you train 100k perhaps not.

One can also say training 13M DM vs my character is worthless. It certainly is not.

Not all tanks you meet will have 3M dexterity. Mini-tanks have much less.

Novice has a tank with only 400k dexterity. If you train 1M dex, guess what, he gets almost no Bth vs you.

So training dexterity can have a beneficial effect. Just depends on whom you fight.

But one cannot make a blanket statement without counting items in the equation.

AMF is very simliar given that you have to include the usage of NSC with it. No other item has the same effect, directly on a spell to reduce it a the source.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 5:12 PM EDT

"If there wasnt so much darn hoarding by the upper class in this game."

Sorry Thak, but I didn't experience this at all when I was a NUB.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 5:14 PM EDT

"If you train 1M dex vs 3M dex, you will get a small reduction in the bth."

While I generally agree with you, this is not the case ranger. In this situation you would only see a reduction in 2h melee weapons cth, and it wouldn't be large, only 20%. As for other weapons, you would see no change.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:15 PM EDT

Thak,

That is one of the most insane statements I have read in ages in CB.

How did the upper class do this?

Because we played from the beginning and supported this game from its inception?

Because we spent our CB on items to improve our characters?

In CB1 there was no NUB and guess what, many people enjoyed it. Some even more than CB2.

The NUB is crushing this game. It floods it with money and makes characters useless. It gives new players a sense of entitlement.

And when it ends, it is like getting off a drug. I am running a NCB now and the rewards, just the xp, is addicting. No wonder a lot of people leave after the NUB is over, and quite a few try/succeed to multi.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:17 PM EDT

So what dexterity do you need to train to see a decrease in PTh vs 3M dex, vs an elb?

But back to my point. Given TTT is right, then 1M dexterity is doing nothing vs me, or other 3M dex tanks.

But like I pointed out, it is helping vs minitanks like Conundrum.

Just like training a 13M DM does nothing vs me, or other characters that avoid ED spells.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:18 PM EDT

I meant Bth.

I wish we had the ability to edit our posts up to 60 sec after we post, provided no one else posted in the thread.

QBJohnnywas April 22 2009 5:19 PM EDT

I've 3.5 million dex; works to reduce enemy tank's strike rate. An average archer/hal team is reduced to singles and doubles. Works pretty nicely to keep me alive versus some teams.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 5:19 PM EDT

"I think evasion works astoundingly, I have a +272 SoD and against Jigs I only hit once, or I miss. Seems fine to me."

the sod only has a bth of 60.

again, evasion is fine the way it is with all weapons but the 100 bth ones. they are the only thing i think is overpowered and am not asking for an evasion buff. i am asking for no weapon in the game to be that good. 100 bth is just too much!

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:21 PM EDT

Ah, but JW your a tank.

A lot of the discussion now is for mages.

If a mage wants not to get hit with BTH, he needs to train dex.

Otherwise get hit and try to live through it. And use DBs to avoid the PTH.

It is a choice, but there is now no magic pill that prevents all hits as easily as evasion once did.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 5:21 PM EDT

"So what dexterity do you need to train to see a decrease in PTh vs 3M dex, vs an elb?"

Over 3M to see a decrease in the 1005 BTH.

"Just like training a 13M DM does nothing vs me, or other characters that avoid ED spells."

Apples and Oranges.

A 1000 DM reduces *all* ED it faces by 800. It's never useless (obviously when facing ED... But then VA is useless if you don't use a Melee Weapon. GA is useless if your oppoent doesn't directly attack you...)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 5:21 PM EDT

"they are the only thing i think is overpowered and am not asking for an evasion buff."

I'm just assuming you forgot the xbows right?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 5:22 PM EDT

are they 100 bth?

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:23 PM EDT

Dude,

So you think the extra 40% to hit from the elb is too much?

Would it work for you if all missile weaopns were at 60% BTH so at full dexterity advantage we were at the old maximum of 160% to hit.

Which would not be reduceable except for training dexterity?

Also, does evasions minus to PTH effect BTH now?

If you think that is acceptible, I can certainly live with it, given we remove the missile round penalty to hit.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 5:24 PM EDT

d'oh, i get what you mean!

what i mean is that with my overpowered post that is what i was meaning, 100bth not evasion or dex or whatever.

as for others opinions of what is overpowered i would like to see the specialty crossbows drain differently.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:24 PM EDT

And GL, is training 1M dexterity on a mage is useless?

Generally for high dexterity tanks, but ones with lower dexterity it can help.

So training dexterity on a mage is not worthless as you try to point out.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 5:25 PM EDT

dex advantage is the only thing that can affect bth from what i gather.

i think the highest items in game should be about 75 bth and range downwards to 50.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:26 PM EDT

"what i mean is that with my overpowered post that is what i was meaning, 100bth not evasion or dex or whatever."

/me is confused about that sentence.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 5:28 PM EDT

Whatever Ranger. I'm out of this, you're just twisting goalposts to try to make something seem it isn't.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:28 PM EDT

"i think the highest items in game should be about 75 bth and range downwards to 50. "

Fair enough. But what about the ranged penalties to hit?

That does lower the ELB BTH to well under 100% in the first few rounds of combat. Ramping up to 100 BTH by the last round.

Thak April 22 2009 5:28 PM EDT

Well i have experinced this since i first started playing this game back on CB1. I found my own niche to work around it. But in auctions new players NUB have almost no chance on buying a decent item. (unless have a friend playing or buy CB off another player) do to the fact of people buying stuff out of auctions they dont need and out bidding a NUB. Or the classic excuse of i want to keep it rare(jon's game not yours he decides on how rare it is going to be) so a artifical price inflation is created out bidding the NUB people that actually need it to use.
Now if you come into the game with a understanding of how it works already then yes it is easy to get around this.

But in the point of view as some one who found the game off of google or whatever and created a account your stuck with only the crap in the shops cause some elite player will almost always out bid you just cause they see it cheap in auctions and have no use for it. If it wasnt for the NUB they wouldnt stand a chance.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:29 PM EDT

No GL,

I am trying to show how dexterity on a mage can be useful.

You made the blanket statement it was not. And saying it is useless xp unlike anything else in the game.

I feel both are untrue and was trying to explain why.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 5:31 PM EDT

Thak - new users make around 400% more cash than veterans. You could easily outbid them.

Veterans are also not intentionally outbidding new users to keep them from getting items...I consistently stop bidding on items that I'm after because I see a newbie bidding on them, and I doubt I'm the only one who does this.

I'm afraid you've created a generalization about veterans in your head that simply doesn't exist.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:32 PM EDT

Thak,

And it is so bad a new player has to use a Steel Brig for a couple months till s/he can save up to get that rare armor?

Or use a katana for a while until s/he gets that Morg?

That is the problem with the NUB. New players expect to have top notch equipment from the beginning. And not have to work to get up in the ranks.

When I played CB1, after 2 weeks I was able to buy my first Exec. And I was so happy to have it, knowing this is a long term game.

Anticipation is a wonderful thing that is lost in CB2.

Lord Bob April 22 2009 5:32 PM EDT

Wow, I'm late. If this was covered already, I suck again.

"So now LB we're on to *two* different XP expenditures to counter the Tanks one.
Trianing Dex and Evasion."

Where as we have to train TWO offensive stats AND pump cash into our offense as opposed to your single stat attack, which is far from underpowered compared to all we have to do to match it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 5:34 PM EDT

"Fair enough. But what about the ranged penalties to hit?"

i think that the ranged penalties are just too damn complicated to understand in their current form and would rather bth be used as the sole modifier rather than the current system of some mystery ranged mods applied over bth.

if we then need to adjust bth upwards or downwards to balance then do that.

i am not sure that anyone really knows how the ranged penalties now stack with bth to determine hits in ranged or melee for most weapons.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:34 PM EDT

There are a couple people who do bid on rares.

However, they see the price in auctions is below that of past auctions and try to make money on it.

I see nothing wrong with it. And a lot of the time, that very same item is back in auctions for a bit more. A profit.

But nobody I know "hordes" items just to make them rare. Some have many spare rares for rentals or for future minions, but if you really want a specific rare, especially with the Special Items addition, you can get it.

You should need to save up for it, like most of us oldtimers did. But the NUB lets you buy 3 or 4 right away.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:37 PM EDT

"I think that the ranged penalties are just too damn complicated to understand in their current form and would rather bth be used as the sole modifier rather than the current system of some mystery ranged mods applied over bth. "

I can get on board with this easily. Make all missile weapons 75% or 60% Bth and remove the penalties.

However I think the penalties are designed to help non missile users have a chance to live a couple more rounds, then scale up near the end of missile to give them a chance to finish.

If that is Jon's goal, then nothing will change.

But I notice 1-2 more hits in the last round of combat vs the HoC first round. It is very noticeable. So I doubt I am getting 200 Bth with full dex advantage the very first round.

I would be surprised it if was more than 125.

Wasp [Demon Forging] April 22 2009 5:40 PM EDT

I think the nub/ncb thing going on is overpowered. Lets be honest, it's the only way to compete.

Unless I cheat I won't get an nub

Unless I spend USD there's no point in an ncb.

They look like fine options to me.

On a side note I really enjoyed the ncb though, looking at my next one soon already. Very heavy on my bank balance though? Free BA on the NCB is a must. It's free for nubs right?

QBOddBird April 22 2009 5:45 PM EDT

It is free for NUBs, Wasp, but the cost taken out of their amplified cash rewards.

Free BA would be great for NCBs, and I'm pretty sure 90% of CB would be okay with running an NCB that gained 0 cash rewards if it meant they didn't have to pay for super-expensive BA for 6 months just to have a competitive chance.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 22 2009 5:45 PM EDT

"Where as we have to train TWO offensive stats AND pump cash into our offense"

You don't *have* to train Dex. ;) It's just useful for Tanks if they do.

OK Ranger, I hope this will be my last post about this.

You are just moving the goal posts to try to 'win'.

I'll use varibles instead.

A Mage/E that trains Dex gets *no use* out of it what so ever, until thier Dex (let's call it 'd') is equal to thier attackers (let's call that 'a').

So when d<=a if gives nothing. Zip. Nada.

(change that for reflecting the reduction of the extra extra dex hit if you want. To what? d/2<=a gives nothing?)

I used AMF as it's the closest example, as it actually gives nothing when it's very small. But AMF continually changes, as it get gradually larger.

Defensive Dex doesn't. It doesn't offer a 25% reduction at d=a/4.

I hope that helps, and stops any silly goalpost moving by asking about 3 Mil Values then say "Ah yes but, when your target is a third of that amount...".

Wasp [Demon Forging] April 22 2009 5:47 PM EDT

Agreed. I could live without cash rewards on a new character bonus character lol. I think we'd welcome that change with open arms. More enjoyment for people that want to keep having continuous runs for top spot using different strats etc. without the HUGE cost to the bank balance. Isn't Jon trying to deter people from doing that?

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:47 PM EDT

Wasp.
One simple quote on why NCB will never get free BA.

"you had your chance and blew it"

I do wish it was cheaper though.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 5:49 PM EDT

I'd be fine with it, but I can think of at least one person who wouldn't be.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 5:50 PM EDT

waspy, how much did you spend on ba? i spent no usd and only bought ba during xp times for the second half and our graphs aren't too far apart. at least until the transfer and saved ba boost that is! ; )

TheHatchetman April 22 2009 5:50 PM EDT

"Shade, I'll send all my items to TP if you can come up with a way to make a Heaume overpowered. =P "

That's easy, just play a tourney >:)

A Heaume [5] (+21) owned by TheHatchetman ([Koyseeker]Hatchetman)

Lord Bob April 22 2009 5:51 PM EDT

"You don't *have* to train Dex. ;) It's just useful for Tanks if they do."

*laughs*

Yeah, we do HAVE to. If we don't, any meaningful amount of Dexterity or Evasion kills our offense still. Unless you want to rely on the small chance to do massive damage, rather than the near certainty to do some reasonable damage (a far better option), you need Dex. Maybe not as much as before, but still a sizable amount. Believe me, I've learned that the hard way over the last two months. No Dex == lots of wasted attacks.

QBRanger April 22 2009 5:52 PM EDT

AARG GL

Dexterity can be useful depending on who you fight.

Just like DM. Or AMF vs tanks.

My last post on that.

TheHatchetman April 22 2009 6:08 PM EDT

"You don't *have* to train Dex. ;) It's just useful for Tanks if they do."

This is true... My tank did just fine with somewhere in the neighborhood of 200k DX (considering they had 8m HP and over 5m ST, that basically is no DX)... Only a small handful of teams in CB that gave me difficulty hitting multiple times, and all it took was a 90m nw investment into pth ^_^

Lord Bob April 22 2009 6:09 PM EDT

"and all it took was a 90m nw investment into pth"

And there you go. 90 million.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 6:27 PM EDT

Ranger, I'm going to quote this line in every post I make. Ever. Just letting you know:

"Anticipation is a wonderful thing that is lost in CB2."

Anyways, ZzZz we all know the xbows are insane... so why are we still on this topic? You are arguing amongst yourselves about what needs to be changed/fixed, and getting all worked up... when lets face it, you can't even get "recent" // known bugs fixed...

Chill out a little bit. Is everything perfectly balanced? No. The Xbows and NSC prove that easily... the 100% BTH of the ELB proves that.

Talk about it? Sure... not saying to the contrary, but I don't know why people have to be so passionate about something that more than likely isn't going to happen. (Not saying don't be passionate, just don't know how else to tell you, your passion is being (arguably) wasted convincing people that "don't matter". You want to see a change, convince the man upstairs.)

I think you're setting yourselves up to fail.

The correct action would be to state what you think is overpowered, and discuss intelligently ways to fix it. Not argue about it, and bicker.

Besides, who cares how many people you convert to seeing things your way? ITS NOT GOING TO MATTER IF YOU CAN'T CONVINCE JON/NS!!!

Seeing as Jon is (from my point of view at least) AWOL, and NS is enjoying time in Hawaii, you're once again... just setting yourselves up to fail.

I think the xbow should be fixed ASAP, and most of the smart people on CB agree. I'm sure JON/NS are WELL AWARE, but lets face it, do you think they are going to just fix it right this second because there is a 100 post argument over numbers and "CB morals"?

Maybe once the owners of the game start taking an active role in the game, maybe THEN you can freak out and get worked up, and MAYBE something will happen then. As it stands Jon doesn't seem to have a fix / care, and NS is busy.

"Anticipation is a wonderful thing that is lost in CB2."

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 6:29 PM EDT

*note* not to say anything said above or any arguments are valid/invalid *note*

I agree with most of the things that were stated intelligently. That being said, maybe you should be talking with someone with the power to change it, instead of repeating facts over and over again.

Just my .02, I would personally love for things to get fixed, but one has to be a realist, and these kind of posts never seemed to work in the past, other then someone getting upset in one way or the other.

"Anticipation is a wonderful thing that is lost in CB2. "

Lord Bob April 22 2009 6:33 PM EDT

"..and these kind of posts never seemed to work in the past, other then someone getting upset in one way or the other."

Not true. After enough ranting, Evasion was fixed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 6:47 PM EDT

one incident following another does not prove causation.

i attributed the evasion change more to nightstrike being added as a dev and having a mechanic he thought might work better especially given the way jon worded the final changelog to evasion.

i can not be sure of that though just as you cannot prove causation with whining about evasion effecting a change in it.

QBRanger April 22 2009 7:03 PM EDT

With evasion there was more than enough evidence it was broken.

The timing of the change is a sore point for me.

But if we show something is off/overpowered Jon does often take notice. But on his time.

Just reference the VB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 22 2009 7:05 PM EDT

oh i wasn't denying that at all. we have a much more current reference actually with the aoj.

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 7:08 PM EDT

I don' t know about you guys, but the last few changes Jon made (AoJ petition?) was a direct response to the community.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 7:50 PM EDT

"one incident following another does not prove causation."

Oh, I love you dudemus, that's my favorite counter argument. Correlation does not equal causation.

Thak April 22 2009 9:25 PM EDT

geez gone for a couple hours and this thread blew up.

No kidding there was no NUB on CB1 my point is about the hoarding and if there wasn't so much hoarding there wouldnメt be a need for a New User Bonus cause the new users would have a chance. What everyone was complaining about before and why the NUB was introduced with the NCB.
You all say it yourself in this thread on how much it cost to upgrade weapons. How is some one supposed to spend all there money upgrading their eq. Then time comes to move to the big 6 they sell what they upgraded for at best half of what they spent into it. So now everything they made is spent on some good eq but in turn puts them down quite a bit temporarily but as a new person coming into the game i can easily see why they donメt stick around, its frustrating.
Most of you seem to forget about people that have no clue how to play this game when they first start. And given most peoples time frame to play they donメt have enough time to accumulate enough cash. And no they shouldnメt just start of with the best but they should feel they have a chance to get it at least.

All im trying to do is to make this game more appealing to beginners and all most are worried about is what can help the top dogs stay top dogs. I agree with most of the other post about the certain eq being overpowered such as the ExBow. But i stick by what i said that NUB is a product of your own doing.
I have had plenty of friends try this game and they just said screw it cause the time they would have had to put into it to get any decent eq. One of them was one of the top campers in CB1 now he wonメt even touch CB2


We all agree things need to be tweaked a bit in one form or another as with any game though.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 9:33 PM EDT

"Most of you seem to forget about people that have no clue how to play this game when they first start."

Umm...we just had a whole debate about how certain weapons were newbie traps. We're VERY aware, but the community just doesn't seem to have the ear of Jon or NS. Have you noticed how people always post in new player threads that they want to help them out?

"And given most peoples time frame to play they donメt have enough time to accumulate enough cash. And no they shouldnメt just start of with the best but they should feel they have a chance to get it at least."

They have a 400% bonus to cash, what more are you expecting?

"All im trying to do is to make this game more appealing to beginners and all most are worried about is what can help the top dogs stay top dogs."

Like I said before, I think you've created a false idea in your head of how veterans think.

"I agree with most of the other post about the certain eq being overpowered such as the ExBow. But i stick by what i said that NUB is a product of your own doing.
I have had plenty of friends try this game and they just said screw it cause the time they would have had to put into it to get any decent eq. One of them was one of the top campers in CB1 now he wonメt even touch CB2 "

If they don't have the time to put into it to get decent equipment NOW, with a 400% bonus to their cash and free purchased BA, they're probably not interested in playing period.

Wizard'sFirstRule April 22 2009 9:38 PM EDT

ok, I see what is point is. CB is in a way rewarding constant playing. Non-stop. some casual players have no intent of getting to the top, but want a good shot at some middle ground by logging on maybe twice or thrice a week. CB does not cater to that group of player. my 2c.

Thak April 22 2009 9:42 PM EDT

TY Pain you seem to understand what im trying to say.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 22 2009 9:46 PM EDT

"but want a good shot at some middle ground by logging on maybe twice or thrice a week." Log in just during exp times and use your free BA from the NUB then, and you'll get your middle ground very easily.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 9:47 PM EDT

What do you mean, "doesn't cater to that player?"

What is expected of CB? Higher rewards for only logging in once or thrice a week? I'm clearly missing the point here.

Surely the suggestion isn't that you should make more money by rarely logging on?

kevlar April 22 2009 9:51 PM EDT

I think the ex/ax bow issue has been brought up a lot. I remember this coming up a few times and I even asked about it. It seems Sut's post sums up why they haven't changed. Maybe certain things in this game are just meant to have their weak points. DM has a vulnerability, Tanks have a vulnerability, DD spells have theirs, etc...
This is a huge change and consideration for those two items, and maybe Jon just wants the game to have some achilles heels?


a more readable discussion on the Ex/Ax thang:
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002XJi

QBOddBird April 22 2009 9:55 PM EDT

indeed, everything has a vulnerability.

Tanks should certainly be susceptible to something (EC, Evasion, Ex/Axbows.) However, it shouldn't be something that you can simply equip and totally destroy the tank...

there is NOTHING you can equip that will take down all of a mage's levels.

There is NOTHING you can equip that will destroy all of your opponent's AS.

In fact, both of these type of minions require a very high EXP expenditure to counter.

Why should you be able to train a minimalist tank-ish minion, slap on an Exbow, and achieve the same effect on that tank as someone who trains a 50M EC to combat 25M STR?

Wizard'sFirstRule April 22 2009 9:56 PM EDT

no, but there is no community or any incentive to play if you are not a full-time player.

kevlar April 22 2009 9:58 PM EDT

Odd, I'm not defending the point, I don't understand it either, all I was offering is that maybe it is intended that those weapons serve that purpose. I enjoyed reading GL's comments in this thread.

Untouchable April 22 2009 10:04 PM EDT

My sexy is overpowered.

My sexy neutralizes everyone else's sexy because my sexy makes them look unsexy.

Thak April 22 2009 10:04 PM EDT

If you want a larger community to play the game then yeah the scale needs to be tipped the other direction a little.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] April 22 2009 10:07 PM EDT

''If you want a larger community to play the game''

You need people to know it exists.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 10:08 PM EDT

We all agree that they are intended to serve that purpose, kevlar. Nobody disputes that by any means.

However, nearly everyone agrees that they are serving that purpose _TOO_ well.

Untouchable April 22 2009 10:08 PM EDT

....and i agree with pain and thak about the 'middle player'

Untouchable April 22 2009 10:15 PM EDT

...simply because thats who i am haha

middle players need some love

QBOddBird April 22 2009 10:15 PM EDT

your suggestion, hammer?

Thak April 22 2009 10:16 PM EDT

Absolutely correct B i think plenty of people know of the game though just nobody sticks around to continue playing partily for reasons im trying to state. In turn not telling friends about it.

And this all started cause someone said NUB was overpowered and me saying it was a product of your own doing if you dont like it, do to reasons x and y. lol

QBOddBird April 22 2009 10:18 PM EDT

I'm not sure how the NUB is overpowered because of anything the community does? Jon bases that on trying to give newbies the opportunity to make the same kind of cash and EXP as veterans could have made since Jan 01 '05.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 10:19 PM EDT

i.e., it is mathematical, not "NUBS NEED MOAR MONEY SO HERE IS 10% MOAR BONUS."

kevlar April 22 2009 10:19 PM EDT

Obviously. Just suggesting thought for purpose. The ONLY thing that will quell this debacle, is if Jon chimes in. Period.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 10:20 PM EDT

yes, but if it isn't brought up, Jon doesn't know. He doesn't play this game, remember?

I'm still interested in hearing about this solution to make the middle-game better...

Untouchable April 22 2009 10:25 PM EDT

hmm, yeah helping out the 'Middle People' would be really complicated to come up with anything to do so.

my only suggestion would be deletion of Account and being able to start a new fresh one.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 10:30 PM EDT

Ah, the throwaway approach.


I still prefer the rolling bonus :P I'm a middle-range guy, and I'm there because I like sticking with my character, not because I'm incapable of being competitive; I've been there before.

Untouchable April 22 2009 10:31 PM EDT

i guesssssss ill just deal with it.

just seeing how rich and how powerful NUBs get after like 3 weeks makes me soooo jealous.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 10:34 PM EDT

Why should CB cater to people who log in rarely as opposed to the "full-time" player?

I don't think it should at all, I also think you get from CB exactly what you put into it.

Want more from CB?
Log in more.

Thak April 22 2009 10:37 PM EDT

ok oddfish apparently i cant explain my point of view to how it ties in, in text so this is my last attempt to exaplin myself then im done with this thread.

"Jon bases that on trying to give newbies the opportunity to make the same kind of cash and EXP as veterans could have made since Jan 01 '05. " Agreed

Why do they need that bonus?
For reasons(not the only reasons) i stated above. They wouldnt need that bonus or as big of a bonus if there wasnt the hoarding which in turn translate into haveing to play more and so on as we discussed.

So as i said its a product of your(our) own doing if you dont like it.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 10:38 PM EDT


"Anticipation is a wonderful thing that is lost in CB2."

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 22 2009 10:40 PM EDT

Thak, what in the world have you been rambling about?

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Are you in the right game?

I've never once heard of the NCB/NUB having ANYTHING to do with items. :|

Getting items is so easy compared to how it used to be.

Stop trolling.


"Anticipation is a wonderful thing that is lost in CB2."

QBOddBird April 22 2009 11:02 PM EDT

"They wouldnt need that bonus or as big of a bonus if there wasnt the hoarding which in turn translate into haveing to play more and so on as we discussed."

The bonus has not changed, nor will it change, nor would it change, if the number of items was a billion or 2. That's not why Jon created the N*B.

I'm telling you that it is based on how much EXP vets have gained and how much money they have MADE from FIGHTING because Jonathan has said so HIMSELF. It has _nothing_ to do with anyone "hoarding items".

I don't appreciate being lumped in with the "veterans hoard all the items" generalization, and it shouldn't be a problem anyways: anyone can buy anything they want, and if they want 100 of an item, that's their choice and they can do it.


And the idea of giving the middle-area players any sort of boost just because they are unable to come in consistently is simply silly. I'm in that range, and I wouldn't expect any type of "gimme" just because I don't feel like fighting as much.

I tell ya, we are debating THE silliest topics here.

Wizard'sFirstRule April 22 2009 11:11 PM EDT

I wasn't refering to advantages, but more like perks. Targets that they can meet with a few visits, so they will come back. as oppose to, I am at 1.5M MPR, will I ever get to 2M? not likely =>leave.

QBOddBird April 22 2009 11:13 PM EDT

OK, so make a target of 1.6M MPR. Why should you be able to achieve a high goal if you're unwilling to work for it? That's the part I fail to understand.

QBsutekh137 April 22 2009 11:19 PM EDT

Come on, folks, we can break 200 posts in under 12 hours if we Just Believe! That's good stuff!

Wizard'sFirstRule April 22 2009 11:21 PM EDT

sut just DMed this thread.

Thread Closed (Closed by DM).

three4thsforsaken April 22 2009 11:53 PM EDT

why is it closed?

Wizard'sFirstRule April 22 2009 11:54 PM EDT

sut DMed it.

QBRanger April 23 2009 12:15 AM EDT

"I'm still interested in hearing about this solution to make the middle-game better..."

ROLLING BONUS!!!!!

QBOddBird April 23 2009 12:58 AM EDT

Definitely.

Out of curiosity, since the other thread's a bit off-track, do you lot think we should have a Wiki page for the Rolling Bonus theory so we don't have to re-explain it every time it comes up (monthly)?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 23 2009 1:19 AM EDT

Or we could just save the link for the thread, and every month we can say "why don't we have 'link here'" and Jon can just shoot us down again.

QBOddBird April 23 2009 1:24 AM EDT

We don't have a single thread devoted entirely to the Rolling Bonus that explains everything the way it should...perhaps we should link to that?

There were new points and discussions brought up during a recent discussion thread (http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002j5C) that could be added, as well.

Either way would work for me, but the Wiki is adaptable and threads close after a month. I'd rather continue bringing up the rolling bonus and having it shot down, personally, than simply be content with an incredibly faulty and problematic system that drives away more users than it brings in.

Little Anthony April 23 2009 1:28 AM EDT

I tell you what's overpowered: Armor Prof.
That's what Really OP.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 23 2009 1:32 AM EDT

Something is wrong with your link OB, but here's one that you might have been trying to post.

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Rsj

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 23 2009 1:33 AM EDT

Oh, and that's not the one you were trying to post, you accidentally included the ) in your link. But, I posted one just about rolling bonus that you in fact created yourself.

QBOddBird April 23 2009 1:34 AM EDT

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002j5C

was the one I intended to link to initially.

DoS [Demon Forging] April 23 2009 1:50 AM EDT

Anyone TL;DR this thread? xD

QBJohnnywas April 23 2009 3:34 AM EDT

Carnage Blender: not only PG, but eco-friendly.

This thread is windpowered!

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 23 2009 6:52 AM EDT

A really simple solution for the NSCs are to reduce how much AMF they... dispel?... down to 0.5% per point.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002jLk">What is Overpowered?</a>